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RE: [idm] re: art & expression

20 messages · 6 participants · spans 1 day · search this subject
2001-05-15 00:29Joshua Brown [idm] re: art & expression
└─ 2001-05-15 00:48Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] re: art & expression
└─ 2001-05-15 01:29Joshua Brown RE: [idm] re: art & expression
└─ 2001-05-15 16:27Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] re: art & expression
├─ 2001-05-15 16:32Joshua Brown RE: [idm] re: art & expression
│ └─ 2001-05-15 17:12Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] re: art & expression
│ ├─ 2001-05-15 17:13Joshua Brown RE: [idm] re: art & expression
│ │ └─ 2001-05-15 17:51Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] re: art & expression
│ ├─ 2001-05-15 17:28Adam Piontek RE: [idm] re: art & expression
│ │ └─ 2001-05-15 18:03Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] re: art & expression
│ │ └─ 2001-05-15 18:08Adam Piontek RE: [idm] re: art & expression
│ │ ├─ 2001-05-15 18:23Lara Wiesenthal RE: [idm] re: art & expression
│ │ └─ 2001-05-15 18:40Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] re: art & expression
│ └─ 2001-05-15 18:51Peter Schrock Re: [idm] re: art & expression
│ └─ 2001-05-15 19:15Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] re: art & expression
└─ 2001-05-15 16:47Adam Piontek RE: [idm] re: art & expression
└─ 2001-05-15 17:38Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] re: art & expression
2001-05-15 17:35[alland.byallo] Re: [idm] re: art & expression
2001-05-15 17:46[alland.byallo] Re: [idm] re: art & expression
└─ 2001-05-15 18:06Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] re: art & expression
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2001-05-15 00:29Joshua Brownart does not equal expression art is a form of expression not all expression is art but al
From:
Joshua Brown
To:
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 17:29:45 -0700
Subject:
[idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <5.1.0.14.0.20010514172923.00aec008@mail.undertone.com>
art does not equal expression art is a form of expression not all expression is art but all art is expression --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 00:48Myroslaw Bytzthank you for clearing that up. that's what i've been trying to get across. i simply think
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Joshua Brown ,
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 20:48:06 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
[idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <NDBBLAHOCLHEDGBBCKIKCEMFCKAA.vzaem@humbledesign.com>
thank you for clearing that up. that's what i've been trying to get across. i simply think that if the term "art," the way it is commonly used, had never come into existence, that the world would be a little happier. vzaem
quoted 21 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Brown [mailto:josh@undertone.com] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:30 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: [idm] re: art & expression > > > art does not equal expression > > art is a form of expression > > not all expression is art > > but all art is expression > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-15 01:29Joshua BrownAlthough, when I buy an album, I am looking for art, not just expression... Art is a speci
From:
Joshua Brown
To:
Myroslaw Bytz ,
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 18:29:43 -0700
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <5.1.0.14.0.20010514182827.00a7a370@mail.undertone.com>
Although, when I buy an album, I am looking for art, not just expression... Art is a special kind of skilled expression produced by artists, or those who are better at expressing themselves than the rest of us. That's why they get paid for it. At 05:48 PM 5/14/2001, Myroslaw Bytz wrote:
quoted 27 lines thank you for clearing that up. that's what i've been trying to get across.>thank you for clearing that up. that's what i've been trying to get across. >i simply think that if the term "art," the way it is commonly used, had >never come into existence, that the world would be a little happier. > >vzaem > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joshua Brown [mailto:josh@undertone.com] > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:30 PM > > To: idm@hyperreal.org > > Subject: [idm] re: art & expression > > > > > > art does not equal expression > > > > art is a form of expression > > > > not all expression is art > > > > but all art is expression > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > >
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2001-05-15 16:27Myroslaw Bytzno. see that's exactly the problem. who's to say that signed artists are better in express
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Joshua Brown ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 12:27:16 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <NDBBLAHOCLHEDGBBCKIKGEMNCKAA.vzaem@humbledesign.com>
no. see that's exactly the problem. who's to say that signed artists are better in expressing themselves than "the rest of us?" just because a garbageman gets paid for it and we don't get paid for expressing our sanitary skills, does that automatically mean he is better than the rest of us are, or just that he has chosen that job? the same goes for artists. i honestly think i could easily make much of the postmodern "yellow square on canvas" fad paintings that are up now in art museums, but why would i waste my time doing that when i have other things i need to get out, especially given what i'd have to go through making the yellow square on canvas seem like "art." compromise is what it's about. you either do or you don't. if you're smart in this day and age, compromise can mean lots of money and fame, but once you do that, give up hope for expressing yourself cleanly and simply from that point on. also give up the illusion that you are an artist. vzaem
quoted 49 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Brown [mailto:josh@undertone.com] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 9:30 PM > To: Myroslaw Bytz; idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: RE: [idm] re: art & expression > > > Although, when I buy an album, I am looking for art, not just > expression... > Art is a special kind of skilled expression produced by artists, or those > who are better at expressing themselves than the rest of us. That's why > they get paid for it. > > At 05:48 PM 5/14/2001, Myroslaw Bytz wrote: > >thank you for clearing that up. that's what i've been trying to > get across. > >i simply think that if the term "art," the way it is commonly used, had > >never come into existence, that the world would be a little happier. > > > >vzaem > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joshua Brown [mailto:josh@undertone.com] > > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:30 PM > > > To: idm@hyperreal.org > > > Subject: [idm] re: art & expression > > > > > > > > > art does not equal expression > > > > > > art is a form of expression > > > > > > not all expression is art > > > > > > but all art is expression > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-15 16:32Joshua Brownthis is not a black and white issue... in a way, we're both right... For some prodigy type
From:
Joshua Brown
To:
Myroslaw Bytz ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 09:32:43 -0700
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <5.1.0.14.0.20010515093054.00a81cd0@mail.undertone.com>
this is not a black and white issue... in a way, we're both right... For some prodigy types, their natural mode of expression is art... for most others, they have to work really hard to get their expression to be art. Most people's expression is not art, and I include britney spears in that category as well..... At 09:27 AM 5/15/2001, Myroslaw Bytz wrote:
quoted 16 lines no. see that's exactly the problem. who's to say that signed artists are>no. see that's exactly the problem. who's to say that signed artists are >better in expressing themselves than "the rest of us?" just because a >garbageman gets paid for it and we don't get paid for expressing our >sanitary skills, does that automatically mean he is better than the rest of >us are, or just that he has chosen that job? the same goes for artists. i >honestly think i could easily make much of the postmodern "yellow square on >canvas" fad paintings that are up now in art museums, but why would i waste >my time doing that when i have other things i need to get out, especially >given what i'd have to go through making the yellow square on canvas seem >like "art." compromise is what it's about. you either do or you don't. if >you're smart in this day and age, compromise can mean lots of money and >fame, but once you do that, give up hope for expressing yourself cleanly and >simply from that point on. also give up the illusion that you are an >artist. > >vzaem
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2001-05-15 17:12Myroslaw Bytzi don't agree that we're both right in this case. your contentions work on one level, if y
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Joshua Brown ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 13:12:48 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <NDBBLAHOCLHEDGBBCKIKAEMPCKAA.vzaem@humbledesign.com>
i don't agree that we're both right in this case. your contentions work on one level, if you accept that all art is better than all mere expression. but what i was trying to get across was that in my opinion, there should not be and have ever been this separation, because i think the only thing separating art and expression is preference, but even so if you slap a label like art on something it's lapped up by consumers. the reason i began to question this was that i heard a lot of hip-hop heads pushing for their form of expression, hip-hop, to be considered art. why? what would it prove? all it does is put forth a kind of formula to be exploited, and give those exploiters a good diguise and a legitimacy. vzaem
quoted 40 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Brown [mailto:josh@undertone.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:33 PM > To: Myroslaw Bytz; idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: RE: [idm] re: art & expression > > > this is not a black and white issue... in a way, we're both right... For > some prodigy types, their natural mode of expression is art... for most > others, they have to work really hard to get their expression to be > art. Most people's expression is not art, and I include britney > spears in > that category as well..... > > At 09:27 AM 5/15/2001, Myroslaw Bytz wrote: > >no. see that's exactly the problem. who's to say that signed > artists are > >better in expressing themselves than "the rest of us?" just because a > >garbageman gets paid for it and we don't get paid for expressing our > >sanitary skills, does that automatically mean he is better than > the rest of > >us are, or just that he has chosen that job? the same goes for > artists. i > >honestly think i could easily make much of the postmodern > "yellow square on > >canvas" fad paintings that are up now in art museums, but why > would i waste > >my time doing that when i have other things i need to get out, especially > >given what i'd have to go through making the yellow square on canvas seem > >like "art." compromise is what it's about. you either do or > you don't. if > >you're smart in this day and age, compromise can mean lots of money and > >fame, but once you do that, give up hope for expressing yourself > cleanly and > >simply from that point on. also give up the illusion that you are an > >artist. > > > >vzaem > >
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2001-05-15 17:13Joshua BrownI think you are just jealous because maybe you have tried to produce art and failed... I k
From:
Joshua Brown
To:
Myroslaw Bytz ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 10:13:39 -0700
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <5.1.0.14.0.20010515100807.00a87340@mail.undertone.com>
I think you are just jealous because maybe you have tried to produce art and failed... I know the difference between art and expression, and yes, there is one... no, it is not universally agreed upon and only means something to those who perceive it... "Art is in the eye of the beholder" wow, congratulations, you just won the mr. obvious award for 2001. maybe the masses are confused and wrong about what art is... maybe, just maybe, there is no universal truth and hence not only does art not "really" exist... maybe we don't either! maybe there's no such thing as art or expression and maybe the moon isn't there when your not looking at it... You are just going through a nihilistic phase in your life... go read some existential novels by camus or sartre... they will paradoxically help you feel better while filling you with dread. keep trying and maybe someday you will make art. At 10:12 AM 5/15/2001, Myroslaw Bytz wrote:
quoted 53 lines i don't agree that we're both right in this case. your contentions work on>i don't agree that we're both right in this case. your contentions work on >one level, if you accept that all art is better than all mere expression. >but what i was trying to get across was that in my opinion, there should not >be and have ever been this separation, because i think the only thing >separating art and expression is preference, but even so if you slap a label >like art on something it's lapped up by consumers. the reason i began to >question this was that i heard a lot of hip-hop heads pushing for their form >of expression, hip-hop, to be considered art. why? what would it prove? >all it does is put forth a kind of formula to be exploited, and give those >exploiters a good diguise and a legitimacy. > >vzaem > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joshua Brown [mailto:josh@undertone.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:33 PM > > To: Myroslaw Bytz; idm@hyperreal.org > > Subject: RE: [idm] re: art & expression > > > > > > this is not a black and white issue... in a way, we're both right... For > > some prodigy types, their natural mode of expression is art... for most > > others, they have to work really hard to get their expression to be > > art. Most people's expression is not art, and I include britney > > spears in > > that category as well..... > > > > At 09:27 AM 5/15/2001, Myroslaw Bytz wrote: > > >no. see that's exactly the problem. who's to say that signed > > artists are > > >better in expressing themselves than "the rest of us?" just because a > > >garbageman gets paid for it and we don't get paid for expressing our > > >sanitary skills, does that automatically mean he is better than > > the rest of > > >us are, or just that he has chosen that job? the same goes for > > artists. i > > >honestly think i could easily make much of the postmodern > > "yellow square on > > >canvas" fad paintings that are up now in art museums, but why > > would i waste > > >my time doing that when i have other things i need to get out, especially > > >given what i'd have to go through making the yellow square on canvas seem > > >like "art." compromise is what it's about. you either do or > > you don't. if > > >you're smart in this day and age, compromise can mean lots of money and > > >fame, but once you do that, give up hope for expressing yourself > > cleanly and > > >simply from that point on. also give up the illusion that you are an > > >artist. > > > > > >vzaem > > > >
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2001-05-15 17:51Myroslaw Bytz> I think you are just jealous because maybe you have tried to produce art > and failed...
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Joshua Brown ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 13:51:56 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <NDBBLAHOCLHEDGBBCKIKCENBCKAA.vzaem@humbledesign.com>
quoted 2 lines I think you are just jealous because maybe you have tried to produce art> I think you are just jealous because maybe you have tried to produce art > and failed...
i have never in my life gone into creating something with the sole purpose of making "art." it has just never been an issue with my expression.
quoted 8 lines I know the difference between art and expression, and yes, there> I know the difference between art and expression, and yes, there > is one... > no, it is not universally agreed upon and only means something to > those who > perceive it... "Art is in the eye of the beholder" wow, congratulations, > you just won the mr. obvious award for 2001. maybe the masses are > confused > and wrong about what art is...
are you actually listening to what i'm saying? i'm not contending that some art is good and some art isn't. i'm saying that i am against the concept of art, because it muddles expression by elevating itself from it, and thus tells many people how to think.
quoted 10 lines maybe, just maybe, there is no universal> maybe, just maybe, there is no universal > truth and hence not only does art not "really" exist... maybe we don't > either! maybe there's no such thing as art or expression and maybe the > moon isn't there when your not looking at it... You are just > going through > a nihilistic phase in your life... go read some existential > novels by camus > or sartre... they will paradoxically help you feel better while > filling you > with dread.
you don't know what you're talking about. if only you could separate your immediate emotional response from your logical process of thought, you might have been able to restrain your presumption about me and my life.
quoted 1 line keep trying and maybe someday you will make art.> keep trying and maybe someday you will make art.
what i've been trying to tell you is that i have no such aspirations. you're just not getting it. you think that i have some sort of issue with artists because i can't make "art" myself. that isn't true in the slightest. i honestly don't feel that i need to convince you of this. suffice it to say that i know myself better than you know me. in the future, try to keep a discussion from devolving into cheap character attacks. it'll get you nowhere. vzaem
quoted 67 lines At 10:12 AM 5/15/2001, Myroslaw Bytz wrote:> At 10:12 AM 5/15/2001, Myroslaw Bytz wrote: > >i don't agree that we're both right in this case. your > contentions work on > >one level, if you accept that all art is better than all mere expression. > >but what i was trying to get across was that in my opinion, > there should not > >be and have ever been this separation, because i think the only thing > >separating art and expression is preference, but even so if you > slap a label > >like art on something it's lapped up by consumers. the reason i began to > >question this was that i heard a lot of hip-hop heads pushing > for their form > >of expression, hip-hop, to be considered art. why? what would it prove? > >all it does is put forth a kind of formula to be exploited, and > give those > >exploiters a good diguise and a legitimacy. > > > >vzaem > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joshua Brown [mailto:josh@undertone.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:33 PM > > > To: Myroslaw Bytz; idm@hyperreal.org > > > Subject: RE: [idm] re: art & expression > > > > > > > > > this is not a black and white issue... in a way, we're both > right... For > > > some prodigy types, their natural mode of expression is > art... for most > > > others, they have to work really hard to get their expression to be > > > art. Most people's expression is not art, and I include britney > > > spears in > > > that category as well..... > > > > > > At 09:27 AM 5/15/2001, Myroslaw Bytz wrote: > > > >no. see that's exactly the problem. who's to say that signed > > > artists are > > > >better in expressing themselves than "the rest of us?" just > because a > > > >garbageman gets paid for it and we don't get paid for expressing our > > > >sanitary skills, does that automatically mean he is better than > > > the rest of > > > >us are, or just that he has chosen that job? the same goes for > > > artists. i > > > >honestly think i could easily make much of the postmodern > > > "yellow square on > > > >canvas" fad paintings that are up now in art museums, but why > > > would i waste > > > >my time doing that when i have other things i need to get > out, especially > > > >given what i'd have to go through making the yellow square > on canvas seem > > > >like "art." compromise is what it's about. you either do or > > > you don't. if > > > >you're smart in this day and age, compromise can mean lots > of money and > > > >fame, but once you do that, give up hope for expressing yourself > > > cleanly and > > > >simply from that point on. also give up the illusion that you are an > > > >artist. > > > > > > > >vzaem > > > > > > > >
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2001-05-15 17:28Adam Piontek--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > even so if you slap a label > like art
From:
Adam Piontek
To:
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 10:28:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <20010515172847.24352.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com>
--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote:
quoted 7 lines even so if you slap a label> even so if you slap a label > like art on something it's lapped up by consumers. > the reason i began to > question this was that i heard a lot of hip-hop > heads pushing for their form > of expression, hip-hop, to be considered art. why? > what would it prove?
OK, this email is expression. I am expressing myself, get it? But is it art? You would say, there's no such thing as art so it's a pointless question. I would say, art is a definite category of human expression. There is a reason that a well-written scientific theory (one form of expression) is seen as different from Moby Dick (another form of expression). As for hip-hop, I almost agreed with you there, but here's the error in your logic: You're assuming that hip-hop was not art to begin with, and that some people were pushing for it to be called art. This is incorrect. It *was* art, but it was not *recognized* as art. Pushing for underground art forms to be recognized is an age old battle. Just because it isn't recognized as "art" by the old curmugeons doesn't mean it isn't art - that's the whole point of trying to get it recognized. It was art all along, it just wasn't recognized by the establishment. Does it matter? That depends on what you think is important. If culture is important to someone, they're going to want the establishment to change because an establishment view that denies the validity of someone's expression basically denies the worth of that someone. So, what does it prove? It proves that hip-hop isn't just some idiots in a city somewhere playing with turntables and a microphone. It recognizes that there is something more there for human beings. Whether or not *that* is true is, I suppose, questionable, and also whether or not it makes any difference. My own opinion is that if you want to create, just create, and stop fucking around with worrying about what others think about what you're doing. Just do it. Think of the time you wasted writing to this list when you could have been doing something more productive! Most of the people I admire in life don't sit around all day discussing the merits of their work - they just do the work. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 18:03Myroslaw Bytz> As for hip-hop, I almost agreed with you there, but > here's the error in your logic: Yo
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Adam Piontek ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 14:03:55 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <NDBBLAHOCLHEDGBBCKIKAENCCKAA.vzaem@humbledesign.com>
quoted 6 lines As for hip-hop, I almost agreed with you there, but> As for hip-hop, I almost agreed with you there, but > here's the error in your logic: You're assuming that > hip-hop was not art to begin with, and that some > people were pushing for it to be called art. This is > incorrect. It *was* art, but it was not *recognized* > as art.
i see what youre saying. from their point of view, it was always art, and not recognized as such. i can get with that, but i'm still left with a basic denial of the term, on which i have no problem agreeing to disagree.
quoted 12 lines Pushing for underground art forms to be> Pushing for underground art forms to be > recognized is an age old battle. Just because it > isn't recognized as "art" by the old curmugeons > doesn't mean it isn't art - that's the whole point of > trying to get it recognized. It was art all along, it > just wasn't recognized by the establishment. Does it > matter? That depends on what you think is important. > If culture is important to someone, they're going to > want the establishment to change because an > establishment view that denies the validity of > someone's expression basically denies the worth of > that someone.
here's where you and i agree. i'm saying that it would have all probably been accepted forms of expression had it not been for the word "art" and the connotations and assumptions associated with it.
quoted 8 lines So, what does it prove? It proves that hip-hop isn't> So, what does it prove? It proves that hip-hop isn't > just some idiots in a city somewhere playing with > turntables and a microphone. It recognizes that there > is something more there for human beings. > > Whether or not *that* is true is, I suppose, > questionable, and also whether or not it makes any > difference.
it doesn't.
quoted 8 lines My own opinion is that if you want to create, just> My own opinion is that if you want to create, just > create, and stop fucking around with worrying about > what others think about what you're doing. Just do > it. Think of the time you wasted writing to this list > when you could have been doing something more > productive! Most of the people I admire in life don't > sit around all day discussing the merits of their work > - they just do the work.
i do create. i'm not worrying about what others think of my work, which is different than what i can say for many popular artists. i think that this was productive, since i am interested in what others have to say about it. this was not wasted time in my opinion, just another form of creativity being expressed. :) thanks for the discussion, by the way, i had a good time, and had my mind opened a bit more to the tiny complexities that are a part of the discussion. vzaem
quoted 10 lines __________________________________________________> __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-15 18:08Adam Piontek--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > > thanks for the discussion, by the wa
From:
Adam Piontek
To:
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 11:08:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <20010515180859.21449.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com>
--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote:
quoted 6 lines thanks for the discussion, by the way, i had a good> > thanks for the discussion, by the way, i had a good > time, and had my mind > opened a bit more to the tiny complexities that are > a part of the > discussion.
Uh-uh. I'm not going to let you be all mature and back out - this ain't over! :P Because I have one more very important thought: "Art" is a real thing. It's not just a term you can deny. It seems like people think there are all these different kinds of creative expression, and then there's this subset called "art." That's just not quite true. Human expression is divisible into two types: the things we do for survival, and everything else. The "everything else" is art. The survival stuff is farming, math, engineering, whatever you do to insure your share of the food, shelter, and bit o' tail you need. Just because you don't like your creativity being called art does not mean it is not art. It is. Get over it. The other guy got it right - what seems to be bothering you is the way some people behave towards art. The putting it up on a pedestal or on a wall. If that's not your thing, that's fine, but some people like it. Sometimes it's nice to take a prolonged look at something and try to see different things in it. Sometimes it's nice to try to create something that will impart a message. Art on walls (or on stages or screens or on CDs) is sometimes like a little puzzle. On the other hand, I was walking to the library today and saw that a museum here in the city is having a big ol' display of folk art. Something rubbed me wrong about that: folk art, particularly the stuff from long-dead cultures, is kind of like an archeological artifact. It wasn't meant to be put into a museum; it meant something immediate and cultural to the people who made it. Particularly if it's a religious talisman (for example) and you believe that without it your god is going to deny you water from the skies. That falls under "expression for survival" and was therefore not art at the time. However, despite my misgivings, the folk art display is still going to go on. Why? Because it's art to us now. It's historical and tells us things about ourselves. We can even appreciate old religious talismans on a level of the art of craftsmanship. When you get right down to it, you can't deny the fact that art exists, unless you have a narrower understanding of what it is, and you can't argue against how others behave towards art because it doesn't really reflect anything more important than their subjective tastes, just as you feel that yellow squares or garth brooks might not be your "cup of tea." In the end, it just don't matter, so stop worrying about it. If looking at Monet or Basqiat on a wall is one person's cup of tea, good for them! How dare you try to deny what they are getting out of that experience, and how dare you suggest that the you know anything about the motivations or compromise status of the artists. We all do what we do for our own reasons, and only we know if we've failed ourselves. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 18:23Lara Wiesenthal"Human expression is divisible into two types: the things we do for survival, and everythi
From:
Lara Wiesenthal
To:
Adam Piontek ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 14:23:50 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <OFEJLKIKCBFGEHGBBHNBIEBICAAA.activity@activaire.com>
"Human expression is divisible into two types: the things we do for survival, and everything else. The "everything else" is art. The survival stuff is farming, math, engineering, whatever you do to insure your share of the food, shelter, and bit o' tail you need." Necessity is the mother of invention- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 18:40Myroslaw Bytz> --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > > > > thanks for the discussion, by
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Adam Piontek ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 14:40:32 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <NDBBLAHOCLHEDGBBCKIKMENDCKAA.vzaem@humbledesign.com>
quoted 25 lines --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote:> --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > > > > thanks for the discussion, by the way, i had a good > > time, and had my mind > > opened a bit more to the tiny complexities that are > > a part of the > > discussion. > > Uh-uh. I'm not going to let you be all mature and > back out - this ain't over! :P > > Because I have one more very important thought: > > "Art" is a real thing. It's not just a term you can > deny. It seems like people think there are all these > different kinds of creative expression, and then > there's this subset called "art." That's just not > quite true. > > Human expression is divisible into two types: the > things we do for survival, and everything else. The > "everything else" is art. The survival stuff is > farming, math, engineering, whatever you do to insure > your share of the food, shelter, and bit o' tail you > need.
i need to create to ensure my survival. how many times have you heard about this or that artist committing suicide? my "art" comes from necessity.
quoted 3 lines Just because you don't like your creativity being> Just because you don't like your creativity being > called art does not mean it is not art. It is. Get > over it.
no it isn't. get over it.
quoted 9 lines The other guy got it right - what seems to be> The other guy got it right - what seems to be > bothering you is the way some people behave towards > art. The putting it up on a pedestal or on a wall. > If that's not your thing, that's fine, but some people > like it. Sometimes it's nice to take a prolonged look > at something and try to see different things in it. > Sometimes it's nice to try to create something that > will impart a message. Art on walls (or on stages or > screens or on CDs) is sometimes like a little puzzle.
political art. yay.
quoted 12 lines On the other hand, I was walking to the library today> On the other hand, I was walking to the library today > and saw that a museum here in the city is having a big > ol' display of folk art. Something rubbed me wrong > about that: folk art, particularly the stuff from > long-dead cultures, is kind of like an archeological > artifact. It wasn't meant to be put into a museum; it > meant something immediate and cultural to the people > who made it. Particularly if it's a religious > talisman (for example) and you believe that without it > your god is going to deny you water from the skies. > That falls under "expression for survival" and was > therefore not art at the time.
then you would agree that the art we have today is all just vanity if it's not for survival? We all do what we do for our own
quoted 1 line reasons, and only we know if we've failed ourselves.> reasons, and only we know if we've failed ourselves.
true that. vzaem
quoted 10 lines __________________________________________________> __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-15 18:51Peter Schrockon 5/15/01 10:12 AM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote: > in my opinion,.... t
From:
Peter Schrock
To:
anyone and everyone and
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 11:51:00 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <B726C8A4.14CF%pachinko74@mac.com>
on 5/15/01 10:12 AM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote:
quoted 1 line in my opinion,....> in my opinion,....
that's all i am going to say about this discussion. Peter "Pachinko" Ý - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 19:15Myroslaw Bytzme too. vzaem > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Schrock [mailto:pachinko74@mac.co
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Peter Schrock , anyone and everyone and
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 15:15:04 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
Re: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <NDBBLAHOCLHEDGBBCKIKGENFCKAA.vzaem@humbledesign.com>
me too. vzaem
quoted 23 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Schrock [mailto:pachinko74@mac.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 2:51 PM > To: anyone and everyone and > Subject: Re: [idm] re: art & expression > > > on 5/15/01 10:12 AM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote: > > > in my opinion,.... > > that's all i am going to say about this discussion. > > Peter "Pachinko" Ý > - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-15 16:47Adam Piontek--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > no. see that's exactly the problem. do
From:
Adam Piontek
To:
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 09:47:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <20010515164747.2806.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com>
--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote:
quoted 1 line no. see that's exactly the problem.> no. see that's exactly the problem.
don't say "no." to people's opinions - that just reflects arrogance, and it's just plain rediculous.
quoted 9 lines who's to say that signed artists are> who's to say that signed artists are > better in expressing themselves than "the rest of > us?" just because a > garbageman gets paid for it and we don't get paid > for expressing our > sanitary skills, does that automatically mean he is > better than the rest of > us are, or just that he has chosen that job? the > same goes for artists.
I'm guessing a garbageman (or woman) has certain training and skills that you and I do not have. After a while, a garbageman has experience as well. I doubt that there are amateur garbagemen trying to get into the world of garbage collecting, but if it really was such a popular market, I'm sure they would have to "audition" their skills and experience. This is what demo tapes/cdrs are for. You keep practicing and working at what you're trying to do, and eventually a label might think you're good and pick you up. Certainly this doesn't mean that no one without a label is any good, just like an actor without a theatre company isn't necessarily bad. That's just how it works. Why? Well, an actor auditions to be in shows rather than just acting for us on the street because the average public doesn't really have the time, energy, or education to recognize greatness in every "free artist" in the world. We let people who know better than us pick the actors and directors and stagehands to put on the show for us. Same goes for music. Labels do a lot of work that I would rather not do. I don't go sifting through MP3.com because I have neither the time nor energy for millions of people who I'm probably not going to be interested in. So, I trust a few labels to do the work for me. I don't put my trust in them 100%, of course, and I try to keep a sense of adventure, but just like any garbageman, some are more skilled, experienced, and worthy of a paycheck than others. Every once in a while, I discover someone new to me thanks to forums like this list or my group of friends. They are also like a "label," except that they are just filtering to me through their own experiences. Regardless, your assumption that everyone is equally capable of expressing themselves (or, I would specify, being interestingly creative) is false. Some are just more creative than others. Some are also taller than others, blacker than others, or more capable of controlling their eye muscles than others. To deny differences in creative ability among the human population is like trying to deny biology. Anyways, art is the lowest form of expression, and human expression is overrated.
quoted 4 lines honestly think i could easily make much of the> honestly think i could easily make much of the > postmodern "yellow square on > canvas" fad paintings that are up now in art > museums, but why would i waste
It doesn't sound like you've been to many art museums. Rather, it sounds like you've absorbed the uninformed popular bias against art, and are now, ironically, applying that view to your own creative energies. For the record, I don't go to many art museums either, but I've seen a lot of interesting things in them, quite other than what you describe. Also for the record, some of the music on this list seems very "yellow square on canvas"-ish to me. A certain recent album whose one-word name starts with "C" and ends with "D" comes to mind...
quoted 9 lines like "art." compromise is what it's about. you> like "art." compromise is what it's about. you > either do or you don't. if > you're smart in this day and age, compromise can > mean lots of money and > fame, but once you do that, give up hope for > expressing yourself cleanly and > simply from that point on. also give up the > illusion that you are an > artist.
Compromise does not mean lots of money and fame. Not that many artists have lots of money and fame, despite what you would call compromise. And despite what you would call compromise, not that many artists, I believe, really give up their ability to express themselves cleanly and simply. Sure, it's a danger, but so is drifting into obscurity and never having anyone care about you or what you do. Actually, most of us settle for the latter anyway, I suppose. It's the curse of consciousness... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 17:38Myroslaw Bytz> -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Piontek [mailto:apiontek@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tues
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Adam Piontek ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 13:38:09 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <NDBBLAHOCLHEDGBBCKIKEENACKAA.vzaem@humbledesign.com>
quoted 12 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Piontek [mailto:apiontek@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:48 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: RE: [idm] re: art & expression > > > --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > > no. see that's exactly the problem. > > don't say "no." to people's opinions - that just > reflects arrogance, and it's just plain rediculous.
true. i was thinking aloud. i apologize.
quoted 23 lines who's to say that signed artists are> > who's to say that signed artists are > > better in expressing themselves than "the rest of > > us?" just because a > > garbageman gets paid for it and we don't get paid > > for expressing our > > sanitary skills, does that automatically mean he is > > better than the rest of > > us are, or just that he has chosen that job? the > > same goes for artists. > > I'm guessing a garbageman (or woman) has certain > training and skills that you and I do not have. After > a while, a garbageman has experience as well. I doubt > that there are amateur garbagemen trying to get into > the world of garbage collecting, but if it really was > such a popular market, I'm sure they would have to > "audition" their skills and experience. > This is what demo tapes/cdrs are for. You keep > practicing and working at what you're trying to do, > and eventually a label might think you're good and > pick you up. Certainly this doesn't mean that no one > without a label is any good, just like an actor > without a theatre company isn't necessarily bad.
right. that was what i was questioning. the contention was made that being paid for your expression was a sort of prerequisite for "good" expression.
quoted 30 lines That's just how it works. Why? Well, an actor> That's just how it works. Why? Well, an actor > auditions to be in shows rather than just acting for > us on the street because the average public doesn't > really have the time, energy, or education to > recognize greatness in every "free artist" in the > world. We let people who know better than us pick the > actors and directors and stagehands to put on the show > for us. Same goes for music. Labels do a lot of work > that I would rather not do. I don't go sifting > through MP3.com because I have neither the time nor > energy for millions of people who I'm probably not > going to be interested in. So, I trust a few labels > to do the work for me. I don't put my trust in them > 100%, of course, and I try to keep a sense of > adventure, but just like any garbageman, some are more > skilled, experienced, and worthy of a paycheck than > others. > > Every once in a while, I discover someone new to me > thanks to forums like this list or my group of > friends. They are also like a "label," except that > they are just filtering to me through their own > experiences. Regardless, your assumption that > everyone is equally capable of expressing themselves > (or, I would specify, being interestingly creative) is > false. Some are just more creative than others. Some > are also taller than others, blacker than others, or > more capable of controlling their eye muscles than > others. To deny differences in creative ability among > the human population is like trying to deny biology.
i was denying the stratification of all-around human expression, not differences in focused creativity.
quoted 2 lines Anyways, art is the lowest form of expression, and> Anyways, art is the lowest form of expression, and > human expression is overrated.
that's what i'm saying, in a way.
quoted 9 lines honestly think i could easily make much of the> > honestly think i could easily make much of the > > postmodern "yellow square on > > canvas" fad paintings that are up now in art > > museums, but why would i waste > > It doesn't sound like you've been to many art museums. > Rather, it sounds like you've absorbed the uninformed > popular bias against art, and are now, ironically, > applying that view to your own creative energies.
how's that? i'm not saying i hate all art. i'm saying that if seen as simply expression, a more unbiased and free view is gained.
quoted 3 lines For the record, I don't go to many art museums either,> For the record, I don't go to many art museums either, > but I've seen a lot of interesting things in them, > quite other than what you describe.
as have i.
quoted 5 lines Also for the> Also for the > record, some of the music on this list seems very > "yellow square on canvas"-ish to me. A certain recent > album whose one-word name starts with "C" and ends > with "D" comes to mind...
haven't heard it. haven't even the desire to, after seeing ae live last week. some would say that this "yellow square on canvas" school of idm is what is wrong with the genre nowadays. i simply see it as not my cup of tea, so it doesn't apply to me, just like kid rock, yellow square on canvas, and die hard with a vengeance.
quoted 11 lines like "art." compromise is what it's about. you> > like "art." compromise is what it's about. you > > either do or you don't. if > > you're smart in this day and age, compromise can > > mean lots of money and > > fame, but once you do that, give up hope for > > expressing yourself cleanly and > > simply from that point on. also give up the > > illusion that you are an > > artist. > > Compromise does not mean lots of money and fame.
i said that a compromise *can* mean money and fame, if done consciously and deliberately.
quoted 3 lines Not> Not > that many artists have lots of money and fame, despite > what you would call compromise.
if they had compromised for the right reasons (ie. focused their music-making ability into copying certain pop-formulas, for the express goal of personal monetary gain) then they would have had a better chance at money and fame.
quoted 8 lines And despite what you> And despite what you > would call compromise, not that many artists, I > believe, really give up their ability to express > themselves cleanly and simply. Sure, it's a danger, > but so is drifting into obscurity and never having > anyone care about you or what you do. Actually, most > of us settle for the latter anyway, I suppose. It's > the curse of consciousness...
if your expression was clean and simple (or pure), whether or not you drift into obscurity shouldn't be an issue, since you would be expressing yourself anyway. i think i know where you're going with the curse of consciousness bit, but what exactly do you mean? vzaem
quoted 10 lines __________________________________________________> __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-15 17:35[alland.byallo]stop trying to define art. Really! it's pointless. that's the point. a. ------------------
From:
[alland.byallo]
To:
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 10:35:29 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <000b01c0dd65$6fe18560$10de28ce@humble>
stop trying to define art. Really! it's pointless. that's the point. a. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 17:46[alland.byallo]> i'm saying that i am against the concept of > art, because it muddles expression by elev
From:
[alland.byallo]
To:
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 10:46:20 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <001201c0dd66$f3d55120$10de28ce@humble>
quoted 3 lines i'm saying that i am against the concept of> i'm saying that i am against the concept of > art, because it muddles expression by elevating itself from it, and thus > tells many people how to think.
maaan... you know i think you're the coolest shit ever... but i have to disagree here. i think putting it up in galleries is what elevates / detaches it. the concept of seeing somethign as art, in my opinion, does not at all. can we talk about idm now? a. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 18:06Myroslaw Bytz> > i'm saying that i am against the concept of > > art, because it muddles expression by
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
[alland.byallo] ,
Date:
Tue, 15 May 2001 14:06:11 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] re: art & expression
Reply to:
Re: [idm] re: art & expression
permalink · <NDBBLAHOCLHEDGBBCKIKEENCCKAA.vzaem@humbledesign.com>
quoted 13 lines i'm saying that i am against the concept of> > i'm saying that i am against the concept of > > art, because it muddles expression by elevating itself from it, and thus > > tells many people how to think. > > maaan... you know i think you're the coolest shit ever... > but i have to disagree here. > i think putting it up in galleries is what elevates / detaches it. > the concept of seeing somethign as art, in my opinion, does not at all. > > can we talk about idm now? > > a. >
we'll talk about this offlist :). you did bring up a very good factor though, and i'll probably end up agreeing with you :). vzaem
quoted 6 lines ---------------------------------------------------------------------> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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