IDM Mailing Archive

This is just something to think about. I wonder why Mr. Herren tends to embrace hip-hop that comes from the east and west coasts while he is a native of Atlanta. Why is he collaborating with Anticon when he could be collaborating with Cee-Lo? I can only hope that he'll recruit some collaborators from his hometown before his Prefuse full length is complete. I liked the way Richard Devine can pay a small homage to Miami bass, but end up with something completely different. Let's hope Scott can at least match Richard and find a more secure niche than we've heard so far. This may be picky of me, but I think it's very relevant. If he ignores the fact that he comes from the South, then his music will be regionally invalid. And that would mean that his music is culturally weak. And culturally weak hip-hop is BAD hip-hop, no matter how much you're trying to "rebuild" it. Btw, don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some Delarosa & Asora :) but this is just a pet peev of mine. Again, just something to think about. -char _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i'm pretty sure scott herren can do what the hell he wants. If he ignores the fact

quoted 4 lines that he

>that he >comes from the South, then his music will be regionally invalid. And that >would mean that his music is culturally weak. And culturally weak hip-hop >is BAD hip-hop, no matter how much you're trying to "rebuild" it.

maybe you should've called yourself "armchair socialogist" don't get me wrong, but would this be "keepin it real" in your eyes? JD2

quoted 34 lines From: "Armchair Charlie" <dubnovibrator@hotmail.com>

>From: "Armchair Charlie" <dubnovibrator@hotmail.com> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: [idm] Scott Herren and ATL >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:48:36 -0600 > >This is just something to think about. I wonder why Mr. Herren tends to >embrace hip-hop that comes from the east and west coasts while he is a >native of Atlanta. Why is he collaborating with Anticon when he could be >collaborating with Cee-Lo? I can only hope that he'll recruit some >collaborators from his hometown before his Prefuse full length is complete. >I liked the way Richard Devine can pay a small homage to Miami bass, but >end >up with something completely different. Let's hope Scott can at least >match >Richard and find a more secure niche than we've heard so far. This may be >picky of me, but I think it's very relevant. If he ignores the fact that >he >comes from the South, then his music will be regionally invalid. And that >would mean that his music is culturally weak. And culturally weak hip-hop >is BAD hip-hop, no matter how much you're trying to "rebuild" it. > >Btw, don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some Delarosa & Asora :) but this is >just >a pet peev of mine. Again, just something to think about. > >-char >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 1 line i'm pretty sure scott herren can do what the hell he wants.

>i'm pretty sure scott herren can do what the hell he wants.

I'm pretty sure he can too. maybe he should exercise that freedom and send you his poop by post.

quoted 2 lines maybe you should've called yourself "armchair socialogist" don't get m

>maybe you should've called yourself "armchair socialogist" don't get me >wrong, but would this be "keepin it real" in your eyes?

just an observation. don't get too pissy. i don't mean any harm. i'm no sociologist, but i do recognize the power of culture in music, especially hip-hop. that power isn't something that's present in idm, cuz idm consists of dorky producers with nothing to say. so when an idm producer tries to "rebuild" hip-hop, he should at least take a look around. that's all i'm sayin. hoe ;) -char _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i'm no

quoted 2 lines sociologist, but i do recognize the power of culture in music, especially

>sociologist, but i do recognize the power of culture in music, especially >hip-hop

ok, so explain what exactly this means, and i don't mean wonderful generality either, it is appearent that you have put alot of thought in this statement, so please do share with us. and contrast your statement with other forms of music and why culture is so powerful to hip-hop vs anything else. that power isn't something that's present in idm, cuz idm

quoted 2 lines consists

>consists >of dorky producers with nothing to say.

what should "dorky idm producers" be trying to say, what universal message? in your opinion. so when an idm producer

quoted 2 lines tries to

>tries to >"rebuild" hip-hop, he should at least take a look around.

and what exactly does this mean too? JD2

quoted 30 lines From: "Armchair Charlie" <dubnovibrator@hotmail.com>

>From: "Armchair Charlie" <dubnovibrator@hotmail.com> >To: jdunning2@hotmail.com, idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] Scott Herren and ATL >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:31:10 -0600 > >>i'm pretty sure scott herren can do what the hell he wants. > >I'm pretty sure he can too. maybe he should exercise that freedom and send >you his poop by post. > >>maybe you should've called yourself "armchair socialogist" don't get me >>wrong, but would this be "keepin it real" in your eyes? > >just an observation. don't get too pissy. i don't mean any harm. i'm no >sociologist, but i do recognize the power of culture in music, especially >hip-hop. that power isn't something that's present in idm, cuz idm >consists >of dorky producers with nothing to say. so when an idm producer tries to >"rebuild" hip-hop, he should at least take a look around. that's all i'm >sayin. hoe ;) > >-char >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 5 lines explain what exactly this means, and i don't mean wonderful generality

>explain what exactly this means, and i don't mean wonderful generality >either, it is appearent that you have put alot of thought in this >statement, so please do share with us. and contrast your statement with >other forms of music and why culture is so powerful to hip-hop vs anything >else.

alrighty! basically all i mean is that culturally aware music has more potential than non-aware music. that doesn't mean that scott MUST change his ways and become a Mannie Fresh-lovin dirty south bawla, but it might be nice if he did at least hint at some of the musical elements that make southern rap unique. (i have yet to hear ANY elements of that sort in his music.) if he did incorporate some of this dirty south production into his own work, that would make his music more culturally valid (which would be a good thing). the fact that he's doing a track with Anticon suggests that he has very particular tastes: underground, abstract, collegiate hip-hop. this kind of hip-hop, for the most part, is NOT happening in ATL or elsewhere in the south (with exceptions of course). so it starts to become apparent to me that since scott's region hasn't affected his music AT ALL, that he lacks awareness. and that would be a bad thing, right? i realize that's a very picky way of looking at things. again, don't ponder over it too much, it really doesn't mean that much. but it does have some relevance, so that's why i brought it up.

quoted 2 lines what should "dorky idm producers" be trying to say, what universal message?

>what should "dorky idm producers" be trying to say, what universal message? >in your opinion.

ok, the "dorky [idm] producers" smirk wasn't meant to be taken seriously. so please don't (take it seriously). i just mean that idm musicians don't really take part in a well defined culture. cuz they (we) are scattered all over the planet (not that hip-hop artists aren't as well). and we don't have anything to say (maybe besides "think, don't dance"), nor should we. and we don't have highly concentrated geographic areas. we are where we are, as individuals more than as a society. i would argue that hiphop has a bigger cultural value, mainly because it's bigger. and it's definitely more regionally diverse. in idm, we'll have pole and kit clayton in totally different regions, still making very similar music. you are less likely to see Jurassic 5 throw a Timbaland-soundin' beat in a new track, partly because they are divided by region. scott is an idm producer without a fully fleshed musical culture, and he's experimenting with hip-hop production seemingly with his eyes closed to some very key elements that make hip-hop what it is (region, etc.). and because that's the case, i don't believe he can ever be a true innovator of hip-hop.

quoted 5 lines so when an idm producer

>so when an idm producer >>tries to >>"rebuild" hip-hop, he should at least take a look around. > >and what exactly does this mean too?

it means that he should take a look around (literally). he should take part in regional affairs, because that's what hip-hop artists do. that's not to say that scott is a hip-hop artist; he's not. but he's obviously interested in and influenced by hip-hop. and in that case, he should feel obligated to step outside the realm of the idm producer and breath in some hip-hop. if he's gonna be a true innovator, he has to be somewhat participant in the culture that he's highlighting. make sense? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

if I listened to the music that my region expressed as its own I'd probably be rockin "shake that ass" which is just fine pouring out of poorly equiped jeep but its not for me. just a thought ____________________________________________ p l u m b d e s i g n Adesh Deosaran | Information Designer 157 chambers st ny ny 10007 p.212-285-8600 x240 f.212-285-8999 -----Original Message----- From: Armchair Charlie [mailto:dubnovibrator@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 6:02 PM To: jdunning2@hotmail.com; idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] Scott Herren and ATL

quoted 5 lines explain what exactly this means, and i don't mean wonderful generality

>explain what exactly this means, and i don't mean wonderful generality >either, it is appearent that you have put alot of thought in this >statement, so please do share with us. and contrast your statement with >other forms of music and why culture is so powerful to hip-hop vs anything >else.

alrighty! basically all i mean is that culturally aware music has more potential than non-aware music. that doesn't mean that scott MUST change his ways and become a Mannie Fresh-lovin dirty south bawla, but it might be nice if he did at least hint at some of the musical elements that make southern rap unique. (i have yet to hear ANY elements of that sort in his music.) if he did incorporate some of this dirty south production into his own work, that would make his music more culturally valid (which would be a good thing). the fact that he's doing a track with Anticon suggests that he has very particular tastes: underground, abstract, collegiate hip-hop. this kind of hip-hop, for the most part, is NOT happening in ATL or elsewhere in the south (with exceptions of course). so it starts to become apparent to me that since scott's region hasn't affected his music AT ALL, that he lacks awareness. and that would be a bad thing, right? i realize that's a very picky way of looking at things. again, don't ponder over it too much, it really doesn't mean that much. but it does have some relevance, so that's why i brought it up.

quoted 2 lines what should "dorky idm producers" be trying to say, what universal message?

>what should "dorky idm producers" be trying to say, what universal message? >in your opinion.

ok, the "dorky [idm] producers" smirk wasn't meant to be taken seriously. so please don't (take it seriously). i just mean that idm musicians don't really take part in a well defined culture. cuz they (we) are scattered all over the planet (not that hip-hop artists aren't as well). and we don't have anything to say (maybe besides "think, don't dance"), nor should we. and we don't have highly concentrated geographic areas. we are where we are, as individuals more than as a society. i would argue that hiphop has a bigger cultural value, mainly because it's bigger. and it's definitely more regionally diverse. in idm, we'll have pole and kit clayton in totally different regions, still making very similar music. you are less likely to see Jurassic 5 throw a Timbaland-soundin' beat in a new track, partly because they are divided by region. scott is an idm producer without a fully fleshed musical culture, and he's experimenting with hip-hop production seemingly with his eyes closed to some very key elements that make hip-hop what it is (region, etc.). and because that's the case, i don't believe he can ever be a true innovator of hip-hop.

quoted 5 lines so when an idm producer

>so when an idm producer >>tries to >>"rebuild" hip-hop, he should at least take a look around. > >and what exactly does this mean too?

it means that he should take a look around (literally). he should take part in regional affairs, because that's what hip-hop artists do. that's not to say that scott is a hip-hop artist; he's not. but he's obviously interested in and influenced by hip-hop. and in that case, he should feel obligated to step outside the realm of the idm producer and breath in some hip-hop. if he's gonna be a true innovator, he has to be somewhat participant in the culture that he's highlighting. make sense? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i think that scott herren doesn't have to be the advocate for hip hop and idm muchless justify his music in connection with his geographical location, which should have no part on the outcome of his music. let be what is and what isn't, do it yourself. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

So, if you're going to say music is best when it comes from its original culture/region, you're going to have to extend that to include temporal boundaries as well. I mean, say I decide to record some classical piano, some Mozart. Do I have to live like Mozart did and get into his non-existant pre-modern European culture? I would say no. Music is not devoid of cultural attachments, but it is not a culture itself. Hip-hop, as I understand it, is a musical style that came out of and is largely still very attached to certain cultures in America. It was/is part of a cultural movement. But the culture/movement does not equal hip-hop. Certainly, the culture or region from which a style comes originally is where that particular style has its roots, and the style is most important/meaningful to the people of that area/culture. However, if everyone just stuck to the music of their own area/culture, as it would seem you are suggesting, then there would never be any musical cross-pollenation or evolution. Classical musicians and artists of the 19th century would never have allowed themselves to have anything to do with asian influences. Rock'n'roll wouldn't exist. Hip-hop itself would not exist. Face it man, you're trying to tell people to not be inventive or creative, to stick to what others around them are doing. Where's the fun in that. What's important is not that someone make music that's important to their region or community, but that someone make music that's *important to them.* That's where the spirituality and ultimate power of music comes from - when the artist puts themselves into the music and makes it their own. Surrendering that to some notion of serving your region is daft. -adam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Armchair Charlie" <dubnovibrator@hotmail.com> To: <jdunning2@hotmail.com>; <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [idm] Scott Herren and ATL

quoted 1 line explain what exactly this means, and i don't mean wonderful

> >explain what exactly this means, and i don't mean wonderful

generality

quoted 2 lines either, it is appearent that you have put alot of thought in this

> >either, it is appearent that you have put alot of thought in this > >statement, so please do share with us. and contrast your statement

with

quoted 1 line other forms of music and why culture is so powerful to hip-hop vs

> >other forms of music and why culture is so powerful to hip-hop vs

anything

quoted 3 lines else.

> >else. > > alrighty! basically all i mean is that culturally aware music has

more

quoted 1 line potential than non-aware music. that doesn't mean that scott MUST

> potential than non-aware music. that doesn't mean that scott MUST

change

quoted 1 line his ways and become a Mannie Fresh-lovin dirty south bawla, but it

> his ways and become a Mannie Fresh-lovin dirty south bawla, but it

might be

quoted 1 line nice if he did at least hint at some of the musical elements that

> nice if he did at least hint at some of the musical elements that

make

quoted 1 line southern rap unique. (i have yet to hear ANY elements of that sort

> southern rap unique. (i have yet to hear ANY elements of that sort

in his

quoted 1 line music.) if he did incorporate some of this dirty south production

> music.) if he did incorporate some of this dirty south production

into his

quoted 1 line own work, that would make his music more culturally valid (which

> own work, that would make his music more culturally valid (which

would be a

quoted 1 line good thing). the fact that he's doing a track with Anticon suggests

> good thing). the fact that he's doing a track with Anticon suggests

that he

quoted 1 line has very particular tastes: underground, abstract, collegiate

> has very particular tastes: underground, abstract, collegiate

hip-hop. this

quoted 1 line kind of hip-hop, for the most part, is NOT happening in ATL or

> kind of hip-hop, for the most part, is NOT happening in ATL or

elsewhere in

quoted 1 line the south (with exceptions of course). so it starts to become

> the south (with exceptions of course). so it starts to become

apparent to

quoted 1 line me that since scott's region hasn't affected his music AT ALL, that

> me that since scott's region hasn't affected his music AT ALL, that

he lacks

quoted 1 line awareness. and that would be a bad thing, right? i realize that's

> awareness. and that would be a bad thing, right? i realize that's

a very

quoted 1 line picky way of looking at things. again, don't ponder over it too

> picky way of looking at things. again, don't ponder over it too

much, it

quoted 1 line really doesn't mean that much. but it does have some relevance, so

> really doesn't mean that much. but it does have some relevance, so

that's

quoted 3 lines why i brought it up.

> why i brought it up. > > >what should "dorky idm producers" be trying to say, what universal

message?

quoted 3 lines in your opinion.

> >in your opinion. > > ok, the "dorky [idm] producers" smirk wasn't meant to be taken

seriously.

quoted 1 line so please don't (take it seriously). i just mean that idm musicians

> so please don't (take it seriously). i just mean that idm musicians

don't

quoted 1 line really take part in a well defined culture. cuz they (we) are

> really take part in a well defined culture. cuz they (we) are

scattered all

quoted 1 line over the planet (not that hip-hop artists aren't as well). and we

> over the planet (not that hip-hop artists aren't as well). and we

don't

quoted 1 line have anything to say (maybe besides "think, don't dance"), nor

> have anything to say (maybe besides "think, don't dance"), nor

should we.

quoted 1 line and we don't have highly concentrated geographic areas. we are

> and we don't have highly concentrated geographic areas. we are

where we

quoted 1 line are, as individuals more than as a society. i would argue that

> are, as individuals more than as a society. i would argue that

hiphop has a

quoted 1 line bigger cultural value, mainly because it's bigger. and it's

> bigger cultural value, mainly because it's bigger. and it's

definitely more

quoted 1 line regionally diverse. in idm, we'll have pole and kit clayton in

> regionally diverse. in idm, we'll have pole and kit clayton in

totally

quoted 1 line different regions, still making very similar music. you are less

> different regions, still making very similar music. you are less

likely to

quoted 1 line see Jurassic 5 throw a Timbaland-soundin' beat in a new track,

> see Jurassic 5 throw a Timbaland-soundin' beat in a new track,

partly

quoted 1 line because they are divided by region. scott is an idm producer

> because they are divided by region. scott is an idm producer

without a

quoted 2 lines fully fleshed musical culture, and he's experimenting with hip-hop

> fully fleshed musical culture, and he's experimenting with hip-hop > production seemingly with his eyes closed to some very key elements

that

quoted 1 line make hip-hop what it is (region, etc.). and because that's the

> make hip-hop what it is (region, etc.). and because that's the

case, i

quoted 10 lines don't believe he can ever be a true innovator of hip-hop.

> don't believe he can ever be a true innovator of hip-hop. > > > >so when an idm producer > >>tries to > >>"rebuild" hip-hop, he should at least take a look around. > > > >and what exactly does this mean too? > > it means that he should take a look around (literally). he should

take part

quoted 1 line in regional affairs, because that's what hip-hop artists do. that's

> in regional affairs, because that's what hip-hop artists do. that's

not to

quoted 1 line say that scott is a hip-hop artist; he's not. but he's obviously

> say that scott is a hip-hop artist; he's not. but he's obviously

interested

quoted 1 line in and influenced by hip-hop. and in that case, he should feel

> in and influenced by hip-hop. and in that case, he should feel

obligated to

quoted 1 line step outside the realm of the idm producer and breath in some

> step outside the realm of the idm producer and breath in some

hip-hop. if

quoted 1 line he's gonna be a true innovator, he has to be somewhat participant in

> he's gonna be a true innovator, he has to be somewhat participant in

the

quoted 6 lines culture that he's highlighting. make sense?

> culture that he's highlighting. make sense? > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------

-

quoted 3 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org

> To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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Oig! i'm really not in the mood for all this, sorry if i implied so.

quoted 10 lines So, if you're going to say music is best when it comes from its

>So, if you're going to say music is best when it comes from its >original culture/region, you're going to have to extend that to >include temporal boundaries as well. I mean, say I decide to record >some classical piano, some Mozart. Do I have to live like Mozart did >and get into his non-existant pre-modern European culture? I would >say no. Music is not devoid of cultural attachments, but it is not a >culture itself. Hip-hop, as I understand it, is a musical style that >came out of and is largely still very attached to certain cultures in >America. It was/is part of a cultural movement. But the >culture/movement does not equal hip-hop.

fair enough.

quoted 9 lines Certainly, the culture or region from which a style comes originally

>Certainly, the culture or region from which a style comes originally >is where that particular style has its roots, and the style is most >important/meaningful to the people of that area/culture. However, if >everyone just stuck to the music of their own area/culture, as it >would seem you are suggesting, then there would never be any musical >cross-pollenation or evolution. Classical musicians and artists of >the 19th century would never have allowed themselves to have anything >to do with asian influences. Rock'n'roll wouldn't exist. Hip-hop >itself would not exist.

uh-huh. ::yawn::

quoted 2 lines Face it man, you're trying to tell people to not be inventive or

>Face it man, you're trying to tell people to not be inventive or >creative, to stick to what others around them are doing.

No. No i'm not. Please, everyone, don't let this statement or a similar one be the thing that suedes you away from my consideration. The comparison you made with classical music is invalid because classical music no longer culturally saturated. The things that made made it what it was are gone. So now the music is just there, nostalgic, with no coating. Hip-hop is wholly different. Hip-hop is culturally dependent and relevant. IDM is not cuz it's not clearly defined yet. You can't ignore your region and still be a powerful force in the direction hip-hop takes, because that's not how hip-hop works. I encourage everyone who makes music to be inventive and creative, but you should also recognize your limitations. take from all this what you will, there is some relevancy in my words. it's not something i'm totally attached to, it's not something anyone should be attached to. like i said (3rd, 4th time now?), it's just something to think about. so i don't feel like talking about it anymore. it's run it's course. -char _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 17 lines No. No i'm not. Please, everyone, don't let this statement or a similar

> >No. No i'm not. Please, everyone, don't let this statement or a similar >one be the thing that suedes you away from my consideration. The >comparison you made with classical music is invalid because classical >music no longer culturally saturated. The things that made made it what >it was are gone. >So now the music is just there, nostalgic, with no coating. Hip-hop is >wholly different. Hip-hop is culturally dependent and relevant. IDM is >not cuz it's not clearly defined yet. You can't ignore your region and >still be a powerful force in the direction hip-hop takes, because that's >not how hip-hop works. I encourage everyone who makes music to be >inventive and creative, but you should also recognize your >limitations. take from all this what you will, there is some relevancy in >my words. it's not something i'm totally attached to, it's not something >anyone should be attached to. >like i said (3rd, 4th time now?), it's just something to think about. so >i don't feel like talking about it anymore. it's run it's course.

hmm, so, it sounds like you're saying that hip hop, being one of the more recent musical phenomenons, and having a direct tie to a culture, is still tied that culture, and likely will be for some time. which, to me, sounds a lot like the rock stuff in the 60's and 70's (where it had a very direct cultural tie - the best singers/songwriters of the time seemed to be those that were "keeping it real" in their cultures, instead of selling out or just coming into it by sounding like it), and sort of how electronic music is *starting* to be seen, where mass produced trance is starting to lose flavor and the big label names like "fatboy slim" are starting to lose some of their flavor since there's a lot more that sounds good that's produced by people not in it for the money. i'm trying to support charlie's idea :) basically, i think this comes down to doing it for the music. which i support. if you make hip hop cos you "think it sounds really fresh man," you're probably making it for the wrong reasons. if you make it because it has some importance to you personally, then i would say it's a much more "valid" form of music. now, i'm not going to argue about the validity of art, but to me, doing it cos it's "cool" is not the same as doing it because you like it or because it has a meaning to you. now, i'm sure someone's going to argue "oh, but it's an artistic statement!" bollocks. why should i care if the artist doesn't? cheers, /derek - - - - - Alice could not help her lips curing up into a smile as she began: "Do you know, I always thought Unicorns were fabulous monsters, too! I never saw one alive before!" "Well, now that we HAVE seen each other," said the Unicorn, "if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you. Is that a bargain?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

First of all, you're assuming that culture = region, which I would dispute. Before you continue with this argument I think you need to define what, exactly, you mean by "culture." "Regionally invalid" is a pretty damn funny phrase, though. Would hip hop produced in the South that doesn't sound like "Southern hip hop" also be regionally invalid?

quoted 5 lines This is just something to think about. I wonder why Mr. Herren tends to

>This is just something to think about. I wonder why Mr. Herren tends to >embrace hip-hop that comes from the east and west coasts while he is a >native of Atlanta. Why is he collaborating with Anticon when he could be >collaborating with Cee-Lo? I can only hope that he'll recruit some >collaborators from his hometown before his Prefuse full length is complete.

quoted 1 line I liked the way Richard Devine can pay a small homage to Miami bass, but

>I liked the way Richard Devine can pay a small homage to Miami bass, but

end

quoted 1 line up with something completely different. Let's hope Scott can at least

>up with something completely different. Let's hope Scott can at least

match

quoted 2 lines Richard and find a more secure niche than we've heard so far. This may be

>Richard and find a more secure niche than we've heard so far. This may be >picky of me, but I think it's very relevant. If he ignores the fact that

he

quoted 3 lines comes from the South, then his music will be regionally invalid. And that

>comes from the South, then his music will be regionally invalid. And that >would mean that his music is culturally weak. And culturally weak hip-hop >is BAD hip-hop, no matter how much you're trying to "rebuild" it.

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----- Original Message ----- From: "EggyToast" <youn0394@umn.edu> To: "Armchair Charlie" <dubnovibrator@hotmail.com>; <damek@earthling.net>; <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [idm] Scott Herren and ATL Armchair Charlie said:

quoted 1 line So now the music is just there, nostalgic, with no coating.

> >So now the music is just there, nostalgic, with no coating.

Hip-hop is

quoted 1 line wholly different. Hip-hop is culturally dependent and relevant.

> >wholly different. Hip-hop is culturally dependent and relevant.

IDM is

quoted 1 line not cuz it's not clearly defined yet.

> >not cuz it's not clearly defined yet.

huh? hip-hop was "invented" in the late 70's to early 80's, though i may be mistaken. people doing it now are doing it differently from whence they did it then. no music is dependent on a culture. cultures and music are both dependent on people. If Scott likes his music, so be it. Perhaps you're making the assumption that because he's from a particular area, he must identify with that culture. Perhaps, thanks to modern ways of life, he does not. How did hip-hop ever get into the south in the first place?

quoted 2 lines You can't ignore your region and

> >You can't ignore your region and > >still be a powerful force in the direction hip-hop takes, because

that's

quoted 1 line not how hip-hop works.

> >not how hip-hop works.

Is it? I didn't know there was a rule book. I understand what you're saying, and I agree to an extent that an artist's context is important to understanding their music, and even moreso I think you're trying to say that traditionally, "true" hip-hop is about the home area of those who are making it. If I get you right (and i know you don't want to talk about it any more, which is convenient), then part of what hip-hop "is" is a grouding in the roots of those who are making it. A connection to other parts of their life, their past. It's economical, social, political, etc. So you're assuming that Scott (and others) has to identify with his region's economic, social, political, etc. issues. That's wrong. He'll identify with what he wants, and make the music he wants, and *that* makes the music all the more "real." I would think. In my opinion.

quoted 1 line like i said (3rd, 4th time now?), it's just something to think

> >like i said (3rd, 4th time now?), it's just something to think

about. so

quoted 1 line i don't feel like talking about it anymore. it's run it's course.

> >i don't feel like talking about it anymore. it's run it's course.

thanks, but now that you got others thinking about it (well done!), just because you feel like it's run its course doesn't mean i necessarily do. I don't think you're all wrong, nor do I think I'm all correct. One discusses because one feels it's worthwhile.

quoted 1 line hmm, so, it sounds like you're saying that hip hop, being one of the

> hmm, so, it sounds like you're saying that hip hop, being one of the

more

quoted 1 line recent musical phenomenons, and having a direct tie to a culture, is

> recent musical phenomenons, and having a direct tie to a culture, is

still

quoted 1 line tied that culture, and likely will be for some time. which, to me,

> tied that culture, and likely will be for some time. which, to me,

sounds

quoted 1 line a lot like the rock stuff in the 60's and 70's (where it had a very

> a lot like the rock stuff in the 60's and 70's (where it had a very

direct

quoted 1 line cultural tie - the best singers/songwriters of the time seemed to be

> cultural tie - the best singers/songwriters of the time seemed to be

those

quoted 1 line that were "keeping it real" in their cultures, instead of selling

> that were "keeping it real" in their cultures, instead of selling

out or

quoted 1 line just coming into it by sounding like it), and sort of how electronic

> just coming into it by sounding like it), and sort of how electronic

music

quoted 1 line is *starting* to be seen, where mass produced trance is starting to

> is *starting* to be seen, where mass produced trance is starting to

lose

quoted 1 line flavor and the big label names like "fatboy slim" are starting to

> flavor and the big label names like "fatboy slim" are starting to

lose some

quoted 1 line of their flavor since there's a lot more that sounds good that's

> of their flavor since there's a lot more that sounds good that's

produced

quoted 1 line by people not in it for the money.

> by people not in it for the money.

I get what everyone's saying, but the truth is that even while you have the "relevant" stuff, you have the "irrelevant" stuff. You can have both. If one feels that one rock star is relevant while another is not, the truth is just that you like one and not the other. How arrogant (of anyone) to assume that someone else's music is not relevant or important to them just because it doesn't sound like it to you. Some people would say the Beatles were not culturally relevant at certain periods of their career. To who? To what culture? Any time a genre starts out, sure it's tied to those who originated it, but later on others will hear something for themselves in it and make it their own. So I agree with Armchair Charlie's basic premise, yet disagree with the idea of using that premise to judge the quality of music. Basically, if you're going to write about the social/cultural aspects of any particular music, you'd better darn well know the artist, their music, and their context as if it were your own. Hell, Ken Burns tried to do Jazz just right and he still screwed up in so many places.

quoted 1 line now, i'm not going to argue about the validity of art, but to me,

> now, i'm not going to argue about the validity of art, but to me,

doing it

quoted 1 line cos it's "cool" is not the same as doing it because you like it or

> cos it's "cool" is not the same as doing it because you like it or

because

quoted 1 line it has a meaning to you.

> it has a meaning to you.

i don't want to get into this either, so i'm just going to say i agree with you, but I don't think that supports the cultural criticism of anyone's music unless someone had some sort of evidence that he or she *was* just doing it becuase it was "cool." And anyway, maybe doing something just for the coolness of it is some sort of spiritual void-filler for the artist. Therein would lie the meaning for that person. So basically, I don't think anyone should seriously mean it when they go around saying someone's music is invalid because it's not "real" without backing that up with some hard evidence, which is pretty hard to do.

quoted 2 lines now, i'm sure someone's going to argue "oh, but

> now, i'm sure someone's going to argue "oh, but > it's an artistic statement!" bollocks. why should i care if the

artist

quoted 1 line doesn't?

> doesn't?

"bollocks"? don't you still live in icy minnesota? stop stealing from other cultures! :-p -adam --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Charlie, I think your original point was interesting, but there's certain points you make about culture and music that I need to pick up.

quoted 5 lines Hip-hop is culturally dependent and relevant. IDM is not

> Hip-hop is culturally dependent and relevant. IDM is not > cuz it's not clearly defined yet. You can't ignore your region and still be > a powerful force in the direction hip-hop takes, because that's not how > hip-hop works. I encourage everyone who makes music to be inventive and > creative, but you should also recognize your limitations.

While taking on elements of the music of your region can yield interesting results, it's not automatically the less "culturally weak" thing to do (see your original posting). For instance, IDM artists from Ireland haven't so far incorporated elements of Irish music. Listening to some exceptionally good Irish artists (Ambulance, Decal, Donnacha Costello, John Braine to name a few), there is nothing in their music that suggests that they are Irish, and if you didn't know they were there'd be no reason to suspect that they are. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I don't think it's particularly relevant. Which is why I'd take issue with you saying IDM has no culture (forgive me if I'm misquoting). Granted, its culture is not comparable with that of hip-hop, but it does (to me) reflect the culture of technologised Western late-capitalist society. [who's the worse armchair sociologist on this list? ;)] The fact that it carries little or no regional cultural baggage is the whole point. Maybe an Irish IDM artist will flirt a little with Irish music, and it might lead to interesting results, who knows? But then again, look at the Corrs - they've conquered the world with a load of pop/rock ballads cleverly disguised as Irish traditional music. I hardly think that's "regionally valid" or not "culturally weak" but by your criteria there's a danger that they could be interpreted as such. Yes, I know this is a little far from hip-hop, but... -nj --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

OKay, i read some (it became quickly redundant) of the posts in this string, and I can see the point that Charlie is making, but I think that he is over looking one thing: vocals meen about this much (pinching fingers together) to Herren in regards to traditional hiphop. The people he has and will work with are the more underground, progressive MCs. Not to say that Atlanta doesnt have any. And I wonder how many rappers are up for having their rhymes "butchered" on an album, it must take a certain amount of artistic understanding between the two camps so no feelings are hurt. Also, there are many regional aspects to Herren's compostitions, ones that extend past simple vocal samples. For the most obvious, look at the pace of his composition: its the south all the way. I originally did not believe the whole stigma of "the slow paced south" untill I spent a few months there, and it became horribly apparent that this is true, things are just more at ease in the south. I couldnt cope with it, but hey... to each their own. If you want some reference point to this, listen to the old Outkast song "Elevators (me and you)", not really the lyrics as much as the structure of that track, it should be the south-national-anthem. "The Dirty South" is a term that has become too broad and too incompassing. Just because a camp is from the south shouldnt imply the "dirty south" style. The Hot Boyz (or what ever) and the Mr P camp are NOT dirty south, there is little dirty about them, in fact,they should be in the "generic south". Same with all of the Def Jam South (or what ever they are calling the label) artists. I just dont like the term any more, too many people are exploiting it (see here the Outkast "We're bouncing" skit on Stankonia....classic diss). Also, I would draw attention to the instrumentation Herren uses, which are very indicative of the Southern tradition of music, most notable being the stark and (at times) grimmy piano. The bass tones are also very rustic sounding; if any are done on electric, it has to be muted as hell. I am not too found of the criticism that the phrase "rebuilding hiphop from the ground up" is getting. It seems that if any artist trys to take hiphop in a new direction, he is lambasted for not staying true to the form (see here Tricky and the uprise of the term 'trip-hop'). I am at times shocked to read on other posts how much hate there is for groups like J5, who are doing things all together new (or just doing the old stuff better), there is just SO much stagnation in the genre, and when something accisabley new comes along, its copied to death. Too often the vocals of ANY style of music directs the attitude toward the whole composition, resulting in an over-exageration in the importance of a vocalist. With the Herren style of hiphop, the vocal plays just as important a role as the instrumental. Remember back in school hearing music teachers say "The voice is an instrument"? Well, 95% of the rappers out there have no attachment to this( most notable that DO use their "instrument" would be Blackthought{opinion}), so hiphop becomes nothing but a steady beat to talk over, the musical side of a piece gets lost, and the content of the vocals becomes the focus point of the song. This is fine when the vocal message SHOULD be the focal point (see here Wesley Willis :] ), but too often, great production is muddled by the message (see here tonights Grammy award controversy Eminem: content is garbage but production is amazing). To say that the approach to hiphop sanz-lyric is not hiphop is just bullshit, the more respected producers arent noted for "giving a beat that doesnt get in the way of the rapper". The Herren approach lets the voice become an instrument in hiphop, a gamble of a practice givin the "hater" mindset of many hiphop enthusiest ( i cant spell at all_). And, um, Charlie...Herren colaborates with MANY area musicians in the creation of his music (see here the Samadha Trio), so I wouldnt say he is turning his back on the local artistic scene. But, fuck, in the end, who cares? Its not like most people will be able to identify the MCs on the Prefuse stuff, what do you really have to go on? Dont approach the Prefuse as you would a conventional producer, i would almost put Herren more in line with the "turntableist" approach to hip hop, but then again, you cant really put him in ANY catagorie at the moment, untill some name is invented for it (i dont want that job, no one should). Wait, what was the point of this...shit...minutes gone by. benine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Hip-hop without understandable flows is like opera music without singing....yeah I guess it's still opera music if you say it is, but I don't really see why you want to call it opera......

quoted 3 lines To say that the approach to hiphop sanz-lyric is not hiphop is just

>To say that the approach to hiphop sanz-lyric is not hiphop is just >bullshit, the more respected producers arent noted for "giving a beat that >doesnt get in the way of the rapper".

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quoted 3 lines Hip-hop without understandable flows is like opera music without

> Hip-hop without understandable flows is like opera music without > singing....yeah I guess it's still opera music if you say it is, but I > don't really see why you want to call it opera......

You are confusing hip-hop with rap. Everyone knows the 4 pillars of hip-hop... emceeing, djing, breaking & graffiti (+ production IMHO) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

But if you wanted to call opera music without singing opera, you could do that, if you felt a strong need to make it fit your purpose artistically to do so. That is my point. Shall I expand this thought to make sure it's blatant? Ok, I will, to avoid being talked down to anymore about what "classical" music is-- But what if someone came along and said they were revolutionizing opera, building opera from the ground up, whatever.....and their opera which had an orchestra and some jazz elements too (how revolutionary!!!) had no singing? And then what if all the people that listened to jazz music came over and proclaimed it was the best opera ever? That's pretty fucking dumb to me. I think people are using hip-hop when they talk about rap music in this discussion, at least that's what I am getting from it, because all the people they are name checking are rap artists. To me, hip-hop denotes the culuture of b-boys, turntablists, graf artists, and mcs and not just a musical style. But I think more recently people have reacquisitioned the term to also refer to the same thing which rap music does. I think if you talked to anyone that listened to rap / hip-hop as their main diet of music would tell you that hip-hop without understable flows is "instrumental hip-hop". But then again, I'm from the south, so it's probably just all this southern stuff I've been listening to which shapes my views. At 12:31 PM 2/21/2001 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 44 lines Hmm... Opera music without vocals is classical music.

>Hmm... Opera music without vocals is classical music. > >I always thought of Hip-hop as being about the style of the *music* - I mean >the beats, etc. I thought the vocals were called Rap. That's why people >talk about Rap & Hip-hop, not just one or the other. > >But then I know next to nothing about Hip-hop (seriously) or its history, I >only know what I've picked up from other people's discussions/the media. > >So are vocals a definitive necessity of Hip-hop? If so, what would you call >the underlying musical style? Because As I said at the top, Opera is >classical music, minus the singing. > >Actually, Opera is a theatrical form, so it would also require a stage and >storyline, etc. etc. Just singing and classical music is technically, well, >singing and classical music. > >as i understand it... >-adam >np: Fizzarum - Monochrome Plural ... Fizzarum, Proem, and Gimmik seem bound >together in my CD player lately, although I would rank Fizzarum as "not as >exciting as" the other two. That's just me, though. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Wright [mailto:bill@subtr.ac] >Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 12:21 PM >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] Scott Herren and ATL > > >Hip-hop without understandable flows is like opera music without >singing....yeah I guess it's still opera music if you say it is, but I >don't really see why you want to call it opera...... > > > > >To say that the approach to hiphop sanz-lyric is not hiphop is just > >bullshit, the more respected producers arent noted for "giving a beat that > >doesnt get in the way of the rapper". > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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Maybe an Irish IDM artist will flirt a little with Irish music, and it might lead to interesting results, who knows? But then again, look at the Corrs - they've conquered the world with a load of pop/rock ballads cleverly disguised as Irish traditional music. I hardly think that's "regionally valid" or not "culturally weak" but by your criteria there's a danger that they could be interpreted as such.

quoted 1 line

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

good point. often the most earnest attempts at "representing region" while working with a foreign style produce the most nauseating results. particularly when one or the other "side" of your music (regional vs. foreign style) isn't what you're really interested in. on a related subject: prefuse 73 is good (i think), but there's no reason to worship. It's a pretty obvious response to "integrating idm/hip hop" (take the beat of hip-hop and replace sounds with oval-ish tones and ae-ish hi-hats, make the vocals all "skittery" and "chopped up" - preferably illegible to make it more radically different - etc), and certainly not revolutionary, particularly with the sounds he uses. but again, no diss intended. it's good stuff. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

jon anderson wrote :

quoted 3 lines good point. often the most earnest attempts at

>good point. often the most earnest attempts at >"representing region" while working with a foreign >style produce the most nauseating results.

i'm glad you used the word 'represent'--remember that most hip-hoppers making music belong to some kind of CREW, be it cash money or wu-tang or nwa. i read once that the gescom 'crew' was spawned by booth/browne's hip-hop roots. idm is lonely bastard music, and laptop producer whores find it fashionable to be on as many labels as possible, in as many countries as they can. but honestly they can't REPRESENT adam piontek, before his post dissipated into total misunderstanding ("Face it man, you're trying to tell people to not be inventive"--absurd!), stressed that music is not a culture itself. no, the sounds aren't a culture, but the scene that grows around various artists/aesthetics then lifestyles DOES constitute a culture, and hip-hop IS a culture as well as a genre. n johnston is concerned about our little 'idm culture' (oxymoron? jk), and says that it does 'reflect the culture of technologised Western late-capitalist society'. of course there is SOME culture, some number of protocols (musical style, as well as lots of num3rals + punkktuat!on ////uz[e]d in.writing++++, etc.), but on the whole nothing binds us but musical taste. why ? probably because we are geographically seperated (the internet fools us). i don't know who any of you are ; i don't know if you are my friends or not. there is no idm cinema or theatre ; no identifiable idm recreational activities, no particular idm drugs (dex ? ha.) ; there are hardly even any idm nightclubs. hip-hop has all of these, and they define the culture. props to skism : 'Everyone knows the 4 pillars of hip-hop... emceeing, djing, breaking & graffiti'... what armchair charlie was stressing from the beginning is that an artist OUGHT to be aware of the cultural context he is pouring his creative efforts into. nobody would attempt compose in the manner of mozart (since he seems to be the most fucking popular example on this list next to afx) without learning a high level of music theory. and no ignorant techno rube can expect to walk into a hip-hop joint and expect to impress everybody with his untrained ability. it's been said a few times already, this idm attitude of 'let's chop up hip-hop and call it hip-hop' is bullocks. when hip-hoppers began sampling jazz, they didn't start calling their music jazz. the fact is it's hip-hop as seen through the DSP-eye, which sees all soundwaves in sixteenth-note sized chunks that it can rearrange in a random order over a gritty 4/4 beat. no one is safe from the ravenous DSP-beast... keep the children home tonight, they might find themselves REMIXED in the morning ! SAVE YOURSELVES. .af. ps; speaking of people overstepping their little cultures, i just got 'lily of the valley'--who the hell is jeswa ? some nice electroacoustic music, but how'd it get on an idm disc ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 15 lines what armchair charlie was stressing from the beginning is that an artist

> >what armchair charlie was stressing from the beginning is that an artist >OUGHT to be aware of the cultural context he is pouring his creative >efforts into. nobody would attempt compose in the manner of mozart (since >he seems to be the most fucking popular example on this list next to afx) >without learning a high level of music theory. and no ignorant techno >rube can expect to walk into a hip-hop joint and expect to impress >everybody with his untrained ability. it's been said a few times already, >this idm attitude of 'let's chop up hip-hop and call it hip-hop' is >bullocks. when hip-hoppers began sampling jazz, they didn't start calling >their music jazz. the fact is it's hip-hop as seen through the DSP-eye, >which sees all soundwaves in sixteenth-note sized chunks that it can >rearrange in a random order over a gritty 4/4 beat. no one is safe from >the ravenous DSP-beast... keep the children home tonight, they might find >themselves REMIXED in the morning ! SAVE YOURSELVES.

hear hear!! i think this is the beef most people had with "rebuilding hip-hop from the ground up" or whatever the original quote was. you can't rebuild hip-hop. it's already built. if you mix up hip hop and idm, you'd get hipdlop or clip drop or blip cough or something. but not hip hop. that's already a genre, and pretty well defined within it's relatively loose boundaries. you can take hip hop in new directions, in which case you *do* have to pay attention to what's been done, or you can mix stuff up and create something new. for now, it might be called hip hop, but, like trip hop, it will eventually get its own label when both sides get "up in arms" about "keeping it real" :) so, whatever. 8D cheers, /derek - - - - - Alice could not help her lips curing up into a smile as she began: "Do you know, I always thought Unicorns were fabulous monsters, too! I never saw one alive before!" "Well, now that we HAVE seen each other," said the Unicorn, "if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you. Is that a bargain?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

hey - this horse has taken quite a beating already, but i'm not sure if anyone's pointed out the simple fact that devine lives in and is from atlanta - not miami as i think you're assuming - so i dunno how the argument about him drawing from the tradition of miami bass holds water if that's the case. and if i'm not mistaken herren lives in brooklyn now, anyway. not sure if he's originally from atl or no, and even so with this kind of music it seems pretty irrelevant... Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:48:36 -0600 To: idm@hyperreal.org From: "Armchair Charlie" <dubnovibrator@hotmail.com> Subject: Scott Herren and ATL Message-ID: <F264blZz02H67yRLVbN000120ce@hotmail.com> This is just something to think about. I wonder why Mr. Herren tends to embrace hip-hop that comes from the east and west coasts while he is a native of Atlanta. Why is he collaborating with Anticon when he could be collaborating with Cee-Lo? I can only hope that he'll recruit some collaborators from his hometown before his Prefuse full length is complete. I liked the way Richard Devine can pay a small homage to Miami bass, but end up with something completely different. Let's hope Scott can at least match Richard and find a more secure niche than we've heard so far. This may be picky of me, but I think it's very relevant. If he ignores the fact that he comes from the South, then his music will be regionally invalid. And that would mean that his music is culturally weak. And culturally weak hip-hop is BAD hip-hop, no matter how much you're trying to "rebuild" it. Btw, don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some Delarosa & Asora :) but this is just a pet peev of mine. Again, just something to think about. -char __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

\Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:20:38 -0500 \To: idm@hyperreal.org \From: Bill Wright <bill@subtr.ac> \Subject: Re: [idm] Scott Herren and ATL \Message-Id: <4.2.2.20010221121112.01362ef8@mail.clemson.edu> \Hip-hop without understandable flows is like opera music without \singing....yeah I guess it's still opera music if you say it is, but I \don't really see why you want to call it opera...... good point, but that would negate the works of, say, Phillip Glass or MC Solaar...just because i cant understand french, i dont de-classify the great "Prose Combat" as a non-hiphop album. yup,benine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org