IDM Mailing Archive

Montreal, Casa del Populo présente, presents 17 juin, june 17 : Shalabi effects + AUBE 08 juillet, july 08 ; Francisco Lopez + SURPRISE !!!!! N'oubliez pas, don't forget : MUTEK - Musique, son et nouvelles technologies / Music, Sound and New Technologies Montreal - 30 mai au 3 juin 2001 / May 30 to June 3, 2001 http://www.mutek.ca Quand je pense que certains se plaignent de vivre ICI ! ..... ............ ............ . ............ . ............ MUTEK - SON, MUSIQUE & NOUVELLES TECHNOLOGIES MUTEK - SOUND, MUSIQUE & NEW TECHNOLOGIES prochaine édition/next edition 30 mai - 3 juin 2001 mutek@ex-centris.com, http://www.mutek.ca ............ ............ . ............ . ............ Eric Mattson, Mutek guest curator + ORAL ............. ............ . ............ . ............ ORAl #2: Akufen 03-04-05, 12" AVAILABLE /DISPONIBLE...9 US$ (with post, Canada, US), 12 US$ (worldwide) distribution: Kompakt, Phonics ............ ............ ORAL_CD#1: Ælab "Sparks series" s1 * s8p * s8 order directly from Oral/commande directe....13 US$ (with post) COH, Ivan Pavlov (Raster Noton / Wavetrap) "I deeply enjoyed the AE sparks release. I like the crisp sound of the whole record, slightly reminiscent of Iceland's stiluppsteypa - reminiscent in a good way: very few succeed in precise beauty, though many try. ... - it is music. Diverse and yet continuous..." Richard Chartier (line / 12k) "Sparks has a rich intensity with its thick electrical drones. the listener can really get lost in this piece and seeing the film only adds to the experience even more. a favourite recording of mine which still grows in beauty after repeated listening" ........... ............ ORAl #CD2: Akufen, Music for pregancy CD AVAILABLE next summer, Disponible été 2001 http://www.oral.qc.ca ............ ............ . ............ . ............ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

hello Listers, I moved to SF less than a year ago from Amsterdam and I am looking to find out a bit more where the scene is... are there any weekly IDM related things? Any parties [aside from the Ae from last week]- but more importantly, does anyone know of a good list / website to keep "up to date" on parties as to not miss any cool events...? Not sure if any of peeps on this list are music makers, but while I'm on it, if anyone is interested- I'm also a "bed room" producer of sorts. You know, synths, cables, racks, outboards and all those other toys... so if some of you live in the bay area, I'd love to hear what you are making. =) btw- SoulSeek is a cool napster clone, I'm happy to have found it, thanks guys! =))) And lastly, a friendly person on this list told me that the movement Ae resemble is "Dadaism" aka "Dada" - which is what I was trying to say. If you want to dwell in Ae some move, I suggest looking it up. There are a lot of parallels... =) Talk to ya latta, Seb aka Stimplit aka Astaplatz aka Rezistance http://www.fountain-city.com/portfolio/ear1.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Sebastian Chedal wrote:

quoted 4 lines And lastly, a friendly person on this list told me that the movement Ae

> And lastly, a friendly person on this list told me that the movement Ae > resemble is "Dadaism" aka "Dada" - which is what I was trying to say. If you > want to dwell in Ae some move, I suggest looking it up. There are a lot of > parallels...

I'd have to say that friendly person needs to do a little more reading up on the Dada movement. That comment seems pretty nonsensical to me. First of all there's really no Dada music to speak of. The people involved with Dada were generally more concerned with anything _but_ music. The Fluxus movement which came later and was influenced by Dada was a lot more involved with music, but still I don't see a connection with what Autechre does. I don't find any of the absurdism, anarchy and defiance to logic of Dada in what Autechre does. Something like V/Vm is perhaps closer to Dada. Even Aphex is closer to Dada than Autechre in his pranksterism. In a somewhat superficial way Autechre are more in line with the musical ideals of the Futurist movement if anything (if you wanna speak of early 20th century art movements). Futurism influenced the early musique concrete pioneers who in turn influenced Autechre. Andrei --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines Sebastian Chedal wrote:

> Sebastian Chedal wrote: > > > And lastly, a friendly person on this list told me that the movement Ae > > resemble is "Dadaism" aka "Dada" - which is what I was trying to say.

God damn pseudointellectuals! Confusing Surrealism with Dadaism again... m@2zo --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 29 May 2001 andrei@world.std.com wrote:

quoted 3 lines I'd have to say that friendly person needs to do a little more reading

> I'd have to say that friendly person needs to do a little more reading > up on the Dada movement. That comment seems pretty nonsensical to me. > First of all there's really no Dada music to speak of. The people

Yeah, I don't really understand how that comment could make sense. Duchamp did actually write some music, though it doesn't really seem connected with his Dada work. There's one piece of his on the Sub Rosa comp "Futurism and Dada Revisited", but it's interpreted in a very contemporary style using long string drones & thus has a tendency to blur together like a Jonathan Coleclough track. I think the same label put out an entire full-length of one of his compositions, but I haven't heard it. Not to say that Duchamp=Dada, but it's surely an avenue worth pursuing... I myself have been too busy soaking in the art gallery ambience of the _Theatermusik_ comp on Crosstalk to be bothered.

quoted 3 lines music. The Fluxus movement which came later and was influenced by Dada

> music. The Fluxus movement which came later and was influenced by Dada > was a lot more involved with music, but still I don't see a connection > with what Autechre does. I don't find any of the absurdism, anarchy

I wouldn't necessarily say that Fluxus was more involved in music per se, but rather they chose to expound upon the Dadaist notion of performance/theater in a manner suitable to the way they critiqued the art object (namely, using mass producible items). It is true that there's a lot of Fluxus artists who went on to produce music afterwards, but their compositions are almost never concerned with the original movement.

quoted 3 lines and defiance to logic of Dada in what Autechre does. Something like

> and defiance to logic of Dada in what Autechre does. Something like > V/Vm is perhaps closer to Dada. Even Aphex is closer to Dada than > Autechre in his pranksterism.

Agreed.

quoted 2 lines speak of early 20th century art movements). Futurism influenced the

> speak of early 20th century art movements). Futurism influenced the > early musique concrete pioneers who in turn influenced Autechre.

How do you figure? I could see how this might work from a sound aesthetic, but are you referring to their extolling the virtues of Parmegiani in an interview? I ask because methodologically, Autechre's current direction seems to be opposite the approach used in concrete. Not to mention that I would still argue that the style that influences them is the part that went furthest astray of the original Futurist goals. -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

"R. Lim" wrote:

quoted 7 lines On Tue, 29 May 2001 andrei@world.std.com wrote:

> On Tue, 29 May 2001 andrei@world.std.com wrote: > > > music. The Fluxus movement which came later and was influenced by Dada > > was a lot more involved with music, but still I don't see a connection > > with what Autechre does. I don't find any of the absurdism, anarchy > > I wouldn't necessarily say that Fluxus was more involved in music per se,

Well, I mean you can actually name composers who were involved with the Fluxus movement (LaMonte Young for example) which you can't really do with Dada. I did once come across a mention of a Swiss composer named Hans Heuser who was involved with the Dadaists in Zurich, but I haven't been able to find any more info about him and I have a feeling he probably wasn't very special considering his obscurity.

quoted 6 lines speak of early 20th century art movements). Futurism influenced the

> > speak of early 20th century art movements). Futurism influenced the > > early musique concrete pioneers who in turn influenced Autechre. > > How do you figure? I could see how this might work from a sound > aesthetic, but are you referring to their extolling the virtues of > Parmegiani in an interview?

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying. I did say in my post that they have a very superficial (distant) connection to the Futurist sound aesthetic at best.

quoted 2 lines I ask because methodologically, Autechre's

> I ask because methodologically, Autechre's > current direction seems to be opposite the approach used in concrete.

I think as far as the interest in sound processing and the use of "found" sounds they're definitely part of that continuum. Sure their tracks don't have that narrative sort of quality that "academic" concrete pieces tend to have and they don't use the same kinds of compositional structures as the academics, but as far as "sound research" they're treading pretty much the same ground.

quoted 2 lines Not to mention that I would still argue that the style that influences

> Not to mention that I would still argue that the style that influences > them is the part that went furthest astray of the original Futurist goals.

Maybe you should expand on this. Andrei --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 andrei@world.std.com wrote:

quoted 6 lines [I previously wrote:]

> [I previously wrote:] > > I wouldn't necessarily say that Fluxus was more involved in music per se, > > Well, I mean you can actually name composers who were involved with > the Fluxus movement (LaMonte Young for example) which you can't really > do with Dada. I did once come across a mention of a Swiss composer

This is true, but most of the music Young is known for has very little to do with the movement. Strangely enough, his pieces that do fit into the Fluxus puzzle (like his Trio for Strings or the furniture piece) are seldom performed or recorded. Overall, I'd still say the thrust of Fluxus performances is theatrical rather than musical. I guess this just goes to show you how rare it is for someone to become famous in a visual art context when coming from a musical background (as did LMY).

quoted 2 lines I did say in my post that they have a very superficial (distant)

> I did say in my post that they have a very superficial (distant) > connection to the Futurist sound aesthetic at best.

Yeah, I agree (that you said it, and that it's true).

quoted 9 lines I ask because methodologically, Autechre's

> > I ask because methodologically, Autechre's > > current direction seems to be opposite the approach used in concrete. > > I think as far as the interest in sound processing and the use of > "found" sounds they're definitely part of that continuum. Sure their > tracks don't have that narrative sort of quality that "academic" > concrete pieces tend to have and they don't use the same kinds of > compositional structures as the academics, but as far as "sound > research" they're treading pretty much the same ground.

Correct, but I think the structural component is one of the essential characteristics of concrete- see below.

quoted 4 lines Not to mention that I would still argue that the style that influences

> > Not to mention that I would still argue that the style that influences > > them is the part that went furthest astray of the original Futurist goals. > > Maybe you should expand on this.

Well, I'm sure you know all this, but I'll go through the basics anyway. What Russolo proposes in the "Art of Noise" is to develop a taxonomy for the sounds of the city and redeploy them in a classical context by use of specially designed instruments. The goal is to use the sounds' familiarity to resonate more closely with the listener and his/her experiences with the modern city. This is essentially what Pierre Schaeffer and Pierre Henry did with their earliest works, except for the methodology (turntables and tape). Of course, with the tools developed later, the possibilities for transforming source material (or even recording "invisible" sounds like the ones Xenakis was so fond of) greatly transformed the practice of musique concrete. This led to the "acousmatic" compositions, which obscured the sound source and made everything sound abstract and electronic. I mean, when you listen to "Variation for a Door and Sigh", you at least have a chance of figuring out what it is you're hearing- as opposed to Francois Bayle's "Erosphere" or Xenakis' "Concret P-H". Nonetheless, even the acousmatic composers paid great attention to the structure of composition and the layering of meanings (concretists being obsessed by the interplay between concrete composition and language- listen to Schaeffer's Solfege de l'Objet Sonore (sp) for a primer on this aspect). Enter IDM artists, who as you mentioned, are very interested in the "sound research" aspects of concrete, but less so in the structural context (you'll remember the derogatory remarks that Stockhausen made about Aphex's use of repetition and lack of development within his track). This makes sense, because IDMers tend to come from a techno or electro context, and structural concerns are a hallmark of Western classical composition. The reason why I said that Autechre were influenced by the least Futurist school of concrete is precisely because you lose so much of the associations of your source material when you process it so heavily. Since the Futurists were so interested in transcribing the sounds of the city, this is a non-trivial development. I agree with you that certain IDMers are very interested in the methods of concrete. On the other hand, I think it would be a mistake to not take these considerations into account when talking about concrete of the Futurists. It might seem fairly pedantic, but I'm also uptight about the use of language. It just seems like the historical discussion of antecedents to IDM gets sloppy, and I would like for people clarify to when possible. (I think we mostly agree, anyway). -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

rlim@escape.com wrote:

quoted 3 lines There's one piece of his on the Sub Rosa comp

>There's one piece of his on the Sub Rosa comp >"Futurism and Dada Revisited", but it's interpreted in a very contemporary >style

anyone who can point me to a copy of this at an accessible price is a very nice person :-) I keep finding it at extortionate prices, and it is out of print now. (duchamp)

quoted 2 lines I think the same label put out an entire full-length of one of his

>I think the same label put out an entire full-length of one of his >compositions, but I haven't heard it.

no, it's a spoken word release, featuring interviews and conference speeches. it's very very interesting and inspiring for anyone who is open about their approach to art and its mechanisms.

quoted 2 lines Not to say that Duchamp=Dada, but

>Not to say that Duchamp=Dada, but >it's surely an avenue worth pursuing...

(...) >Something like

quoted 2 lines V/Vm is perhaps closer to Dada. Even Aphex is closer to Dada than

> > V/Vm is perhaps closer to Dada. Even Aphex is closer to Dada than > > Autechre in his pranksterism.

Though he fully belonged to the surrealism movement, I think Erik Satie had a dada streak in himself too, but it shows up more in his writings than in his music (his collaboration with the avantgarde mostly took place in the surrealist area and period, in fact.). As far as I know dada music was destructive, and was only conceived as an application in theatre. Sheer shocking noise mayhem designed to shock and zero the spectators' senses and critical stance.

quoted 2 lines Autechre's

>Autechre's >current direction seems to be opposite the approach used in concrete.

Interesting. Could you expand a bit more? nd np: radio scotland :-( --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Andrea Bardelli Danieli wrote:

quoted 5 lines (duchamp)

> (duchamp) > >I think the same label put out an entire full-length of one of his > >compositions, but I haven't heard it. > > no, it's a spoken word release, featuring interviews and conference

I assume you're talking about the "Creative Act" CD? I just checked FE, and they list two CDs which appear to be of performances of his musical work- "The Entire Musical Work" on Dog W/a Bone (note- this title might be as accurate as Arista's "Complete Anthony Braxton" 2LP, or it could be a reference to a latter day Cage opera- you decide!) and "Erratum Musicale" on Sub Rosa. Sorry I can't help you with the Futurism/Dada CD- I thought this was repressed a couple of years ago? -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 04:51 PM 6/6/01 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 4 lines "The Entire Musical Work" on Dog W/a Bone (note- this title might be as

>"The Entire Musical Work" on Dog W/a Bone (note- this title might be as >accurate as Arista's "Complete Anthony Braxton" 2LP, or it could be a >reference to a latter day Cage opera- you decide!) and "Erratum Musicale" >on Sub Rosa.

"The Entire Musical Work" is 2 early Duchamp compositions (all circa 1913 I believe), 3 performances. It includes 2 performances of "Erratum Musicale" and one of another, less known composition. I believe the "Erratum Musicale" CD contains only one performance of the piece, and I don't know if it's the same as either on "Entire Musical Work."

quoted 2 lines Sorry I can't help you with the Futurism/Dada CD- I thought this was

>Sorry I can't help you with the Futurism/Dada CD- I thought this was >repressed a couple of years ago?

I believe LTM Publishing rereleased the Sub Rosa CD about a year ago. I don't know how easy it is to get, though. Does anyone know if there are any recordings out there of the Cage / Duchamp performance based on a game of chess? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, andrij kopytko. wrote:

quoted 2 lines Does anyone know if there are any recordings out there of the Cage /

> Does anyone know if there are any recordings out there of the Cage / > Duchamp performance based on a game of chess?

Sorta. There was a book published in 1968 about the event, which includes a flexi of sounds from the performance (which brings the total number of flexis required to complete a Gordon Mumma discography to two). It was limited to 500 copies, so good luck finding it. You can read more details by checking out http://www.aqualoop.com/aqua_sound/delia/delia_BrokenD5.html (two words: Rene Block). I would've thought the Cage/Duchamp record on Finnadar would be a second bet, but no such luck. -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

neo-dada sure does it. but rather, the concept idea that grew out of the neo-dada folks, that is what is still rocking the left field music scene nowdays. Thank Fluxus for that. ricky@agrolights ----------

quoted 12 lines From: R. Lim <rlim@escape.com>

> From: R. Lim <rlim@escape.com> > To: IDM <idm@hyperreal.org> > Subject: Re: [idm] dada > Date: Monday, June 04, 2001 4:56 PM > > On Tue, 29 May 2001 andrei@world.std.com wrote: > > > I'd have to say that friendly person needs to do a little more reading > > up on the Dada movement. That comment seems pretty nonsensical to me. > > First of all there's really no Dada music to speak of. The people > > Yeah, I don't really understand how that comment could make sense.

Duchamp

quoted 3 lines did actually write some music, though it doesn't really seem connected

> did actually write some music, though it doesn't really seem connected > with his Dada work. There's one piece of his on the Sub Rosa comp > "Futurism and Dada Revisited", but it's interpreted in a very

contemporary

quoted 1 line style using long string drones & thus has a tendency to blur together

> style using long string drones & thus has a tendency to blur together

like

quoted 15 lines a Jonathan Coleclough track.

> a Jonathan Coleclough track. > > I think the same label put out an entire full-length of one of his > compositions, but I haven't heard it. Not to say that Duchamp=Dada, but > it's surely an avenue worth pursuing... I myself have been too busy > soaking in the art gallery ambience of the _Theatermusik_ comp on > Crosstalk to be bothered. > > > music. The Fluxus movement which came later and was influenced by Dada > > was a lot more involved with music, but still I don't see a connection > > with what Autechre does. I don't find any of the absurdism, anarchy > > I wouldn't necessarily say that Fluxus was more involved in music per se, > but rather they chose to expound upon the Dadaist notion of > performance/theater in a manner suitable to the way they critiqued the

art

quoted 19 lines object (namely, using mass producible items). It is true that there's a

> object (namely, using mass producible items). It is true that there's a > lot of Fluxus artists who went on to produce music afterwards, but their > compositions are almost never concerned with the original movement. > > > and defiance to logic of Dada in what Autechre does. Something like > > V/Vm is perhaps closer to Dada. Even Aphex is closer to Dada than > > Autechre in his pranksterism. > > Agreed. > > > speak of early 20th century art movements). Futurism influenced the > > early musique concrete pioneers who in turn influenced Autechre. > > How do you figure? I could see how this might work from a sound > aesthetic, but are you referring to their extolling the virtues of > Parmegiani in an interview? I ask because methodologically, Autechre's > current direction seems to be opposite the approach used in concrete. > Not to mention that I would still argue that the style that influences > them is the part that went furthest astray of the original Futurist

goals.

quoted 7 lines -rob

> > -rob > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines Andrei wrote:

>Andrei wrote: > > > > > Well, that's absolutely not what Dada was about. > > Dada was really all about statements and messages and all that.

I was under the impression that dada was born? when one of the founding 'dadaists' opened a french dictionary randomly to a page and "dada" was the first word found--meaning wooden toy horse (also being universally (in euro-centric cultures) one of the first words children learn to say--obviously referring to their fathers. But yeah, dada was an interesting art movement. as was fluxus, which included some artists accused of ripping off dada. sorry bout the ramblings. after those 4 years in art school i couldn't help regurgitate a bit of what I 'learned.' -geoff np: plus one: bare necessities _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

about dada music, i read a couple of years ago that the milk cult were going to do a musical 'exquisite corpse', sponsored by the french government if i remember correctly, using a lot of different musicians. perhaps that's more of a surrealist method though, might be interesting none the less. /adrian (cellular) http://www.cellmusic.cjb.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org