IDM Mailing Archive

To be perfectly honest, I think that IDM (or whatever you'd like to call it) never sounds exactly the same artist to artist. The influences tend to switch and change depending on the person. Granted, as some people on this list have pointed out, there is a bit of cementing regarding sound (like with grunge, as someone else mentioned) between the glitch and melody camps, but I've noticed some artists in the genre who are pulling music from more interesting places than simply Warp, etc. So, I can't really agree that IDM has a hip hop connection in sound, but I would say that some IDM shares that same "collage" of sound that hip hop uses. Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a way--jazz artists often used popular songs as the basis for reinterpretation and new arrangement (kind of like sampling before the dj). Anyways. I just got Aspen's Sugar and Spice. Sounds pretty good. Think I'll go listen again. cheers, Mark hellothisisalex www.hellothisisalex.com / records.hellothisisalex.com mp3s at www.raw42.com/cgi-bin/featuredartist.pl?artist=213 mark@hellothisisalex

quoted 4 lines Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a

> Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a > way--jazz artists often used popular songs as the basis for > reinterpretation and new arrangement (kind of like sampling > before the dj).

Most defiantly only in that respect though. Jazz bares almost no resemblance to hiphop. Vocals for one thing (besides some spoken word poetry stuff, but we don't need to go there). Jazz is fundamentally melodic, and in a classical way (i.e. constantly changing, themes rarely lasting more than a few bars), although with jazz it's improvised. Apologies for the rant. I just get upset when people compare jazz & rap. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 08:27 PM 3/29/2001 +0200, you wrote:

quoted 10 lines Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a

> > Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a > > way--jazz artists often used popular songs as the basis for > > reinterpretation and new arrangement (kind of like sampling > > before the dj). > >Most defiantly only in that respect though. Jazz bares almost >no resemblance to hiphop. Vocals for one thing (besides some spoken >word poetry stuff, but we don't need to go there). Jazz is fundamentally >melodic, and in a classical way (i.e. constantly changing, themes rarely >lasting more than a few bars), although with jazz it's improvised.

I agree - I think I posted a while back (maybe it was on the idm-making list) that IDM has *much* stronger roots in hip hop, due to the lack of improvisation. Of course, Solenoid disagreed (since his live show is very dynamic and has a lot of ability for improvisation), but on the whole, IDM is pretty solid and has an emphasis on rhythm (as opposed to all melody with a basic rhythm, like, say, trance). Of course, there are elements of jazz in both hip-hop and idm, and many other genres, but that's mainly because jazz has been around longer (MUCH longer)

quoted 1 line Apologies for the rant. I just get upset when people compare jazz & rap.

>Apologies for the rant. I just get upset when people compare jazz & rap.

You can rap to jazz. You can rap to anything - it's just the way the lyrics are "sung"/"spoken." It works best with rhythmic music, which is why there's a lot more rap in hip-hop than in, say, rock. cheers, /derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- now with HTML --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

EggyToast said...

quoted 11 lines I agree - I think I posted a while back (maybe it was on the idm-making

> I agree - I think I posted a while back (maybe it was on the idm-making > list) that IDM has *much* stronger roots in hip hop, due to the lack of > improvisation. Of course, Solenoid disagreed (since his live > show is very > dynamic and has a lot of ability for improvisation), but on the > whole, IDM > is pretty solid and has an emphasis on rhythm (as opposed to all melody > with a basic rhythm, like, say, trance). Of course, there are > elements of > jazz in both hip-hop and idm, and many other genres, but that's mainly > because jazz has been around longer (MUCH longer)

Of course, i'm not suggesting that there cannot be any crossover or fusion. Take Squarepusher's recent stuff for example (except the obvious tracks on selection16) I would considder that jazz, not idm or anything else, and while the melodies may not be improvised much, the drums certainly are.

quoted 5 lines Apologies for the rant. I just get upset when people compare jazz & rap.

> >Apologies for the rant. I just get upset when people compare jazz & rap. > > You can rap to jazz. You can rap to anything - it's just the way the > lyrics are "sung"/"spoken." It works best with rhythmic music, which is > why there's a lot more rap in hip-hop than in, say, rock.

I meant to say hiphop music not rap, but i'll quit splitting hairs. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines but I would say that some IDM shares that same "collage" of sound that >hip

>but I would say that some IDM shares that same "collage" of sound that >hip >hop uses. Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a >way--jazz >artists often used popular songs as the basis for >reinterpretation and new >arrangement (kind of like sampling before the >dj).

This "collage" is what I was trying to convey, although it came out sounding like I was suggesting IDM is a direct derivative of Hip Hop. Many of the same instruments are used in the creation of both styles which may be where my whole idea of similarity lies.What interests me is live presentation of music utilizing the use of drum machines,sequencers, software,etc... along with other instruments such as guitar,bass, live drums, woodwinds, brasses, violins etc... or does this just defeat the whole concept of IDM entirely? tshake _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a way--jazz >> artists often use

>> Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a way--jazz >> artists often used popular songs as the basis for >> reinterpretation and new arrangement (kind of like sampling >> before the dj).

quoted 2 lines Jazz bares almost no resemblance to hiphop... Jazz is fundamentally

>Jazz bares almost no resemblance to hiphop... Jazz is fundamentally >melodic

I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic. Based on that, and its sociological roots, it bears quite a bit of resemblance. But I think I know what you mean - One would hardly mistake Coleman Hawkins' "Body and Soul" for Snoop Dogg's "Gin and Juice". For me, the similarities are apparent immediately below the surface. (I have much more on my mind about this, but I'm at work now... must go... maybe elaborate later...) Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

mattu@mindspring.com writes:

quoted 1 line I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic.

>I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic.

what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic stuff i think. they are all interconnected.. look at what jurassic five has been doin... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Erica A. Mitchell said...

quoted 3 lines what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic

> what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic > stuff i think. > they are all interconnected.. look at what jurassic five has been doin...

free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and down the scale for a half hour. John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the probably the best example of this. can be quite trying if you're not into jazz to begin with, but give it some time and it can be quite rewarding.... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Although it's safe to say that the majority of mid/late-period Sun Ra output was very closely associated with electronics as well as being firmly routed in free jazz. "Joyful Noise" video where he's just freaking out on his keyboard on that rooftop wearing that absurd blue wig and pearl necklace. That guy was on a whole other level of music. Alice Coltrane "Universal Conciousness" also has some good electronic/keyboard wig-outs although slightly more structured then some of Sun Ra's noise. One of my favourite things to do when in NY is to go to Two Boots restuarant where they have the Ornette Coleman "Free Jazz" CD on their jukebox. A mere 25 cents will make you the most hated person in the room as it's only 2 I.D's on the disc so either one gets you a 20 minute scronk fest. Jeff on 3/29/01 2:31 PM, skism at cazeone@earthling.net wrote:

quoted 21 lines Erica A. Mitchell said...

> > Erica A. Mitchell said... > >> what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic >> stuff i think. >> they are all interconnected.. look at what jurassic five has been doin... > > free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly > based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and > down the scale for a half hour. John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the > probably the best example of this. can be quite trying if you're not > into jazz to begin with, but give it some time and it can be quite > rewarding.... > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 29/03/01 14:59, Jeff/Ninja Tune said in living color:

quoted 4 lines One of my favourite things to do when in NY is to go to Two Boots restuarant

> One of my favourite things to do when in NY is to go to Two Boots restuarant > where they have the Ornette Coleman "Free Jazz" CD on their jukebox. A mere > 25 cents will make you the most hated person in the room as it's only 2 > I.D's on the disc so either one gets you a 20 minute scronk fest.

That's absolutely fantastic: now I know what to do the next time I go to NY. g. -- Guillaume Grenier - gollum@videotron.ca in space there is no north in space there is no south in space there is no east in space there is no west --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

(Sorry Jeff) More recently, I would add Isotope 217, Chicago Underground Duo and Evan Parker to the electronic/free jazz combo world. I was at the Two Boots in Brooklyn once a couple years ago - I'd recommend the Crawfish Pizza to anyone who hasn't tried it - bet it'd go well with the Double Quartet. Matt At 02:59 PM 3/29/01 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 48 lines Although it's safe to say that the majority of mid/late-period Sun Ra output

>Although it's safe to say that the majority of mid/late-period Sun Ra output >was very closely associated with electronics as well as being firmly routed >in free jazz. > >"Joyful Noise" video where he's just freaking out on his keyboard on that >rooftop wearing that absurd blue wig and pearl necklace. That guy was on a >whole other level of music. > >Alice Coltrane "Universal Conciousness" also has some good >electronic/keyboard wig-outs although slightly more structured then some of >Sun Ra's noise. > >One of my favourite things to do when in NY is to go to Two Boots restuarant >where they have the Ornette Coleman "Free Jazz" CD on their jukebox. A mere >25 cents will make you the most hated person in the room as it's only 2 >I.D's on the disc so either one gets you a 20 minute scronk fest. > >Jeff > > >on 3/29/01 2:31 PM, skism at cazeone@earthling.net wrote: > > > > > Erica A. Mitchell said... > > > >> what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic > >> stuff i think. > >> they are all interconnected.. look at what jurassic five has been doin... > > > > free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly > > based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and > > down the scale for a half hour. John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the > > probably the best example of this. can be quite trying if you're not > > into jazz to begin with, but give it some time and it can be quite > > rewarding.... > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines More recently, I would add Isotope 217, Chicago Underground Duo and Evan

>More recently, I would add Isotope 217, Chicago Underground Duo and Evan >Parker to the electronic/free jazz combo world.

what about P'Taah "Compressed Light"... would you group it under this category?? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 09:31 PM 3/29/01 +0200, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly

>free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly >based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and >down the scale for a half hour.

derrr... can't say I'd quite agree with that. Even in its simplest terms, free jazz is an attempt to move away from chords, scales and soloists. Questions of what's a well-developed idea vs the result of "fuck[ing] around" always go to a pointless, cliched debate. I won't if you won't.

quoted 2 lines John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the

>John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the >probably the best example of this.

Of free jazz? Ornette's a good starting point, but that's like saying "Kraftwerk's probably the best example of electronic music".

quoted 3 lines can be quite trying if you're not

>can be quite trying if you're not >into jazz to begin with, but give it some time and it can be quite >rewarding....

I would agree with this (accepting that not everyone likes free jazz). Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, skism wrote:

quoted 3 lines free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly

> free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly > based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and > down the scale for a half hour. John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the

You mean Coltrane. The above is a pretty funny description of Trane's post-quartet stuff (though he tended to work more in modes) but doesn't really get to the meat of Ornette. But I digress. By the way, I object wholeheartedly to the inclusion in other e-mails of the likes of Evan Parker and Derek Bailey in the realm of "free jazz". What's "jazz" about their performances, beyond the "guy playing improvised music with a saxophone" definition that most people probably have? Then again, Pita is probably considered to be IDM. So fuck it, another boring thread about semantics. I also forgot to include the improvisational aspect of jazz as one of its fundamental qualities (bringing it, essentially, to "improvised music following a blues-derived structure"). Most IDM/electronica you could cite as being comparable to jazz is only "jazzy" because it uses jazz samples (like "Chomp Samba"). As opposed to the Detroit brethren (and their heirs) who can make something funky and soulful while using neither funk nor soul samples. Furthermore, there are little similarities between jazz and [I]DM at the song/piece level. That's not to say you can't give it the old college try. I do, however, think that DJs are the unheralded improvisors of the dancefloor. -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Matt said...

quoted 1 line I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic.

> I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic.

Considdering most african music is rhythmic, your sort of right. But I would considder jazz the fusion of the african and the classical(esqe) music the slaves were playing on the river boats. Whereas blues owes more to the fusion of the white folk music and the african stuff... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 mattu@mindspring.com wrote:

quoted 7 lines [someone else said]:

> [someone else said]: > > >Jazz bares almost no resemblance to hiphop... Jazz is fundamentally > >melodic > > I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic. Based on that, and > its sociological roots, it bears quite a bit of resemblance. But I

Rhythmically, African music differs in a fundamental way from western music traditions in that it uses a combination of patterns with different (and long) lengths and emphasis to create a complex rhythmic mesh that repeats itself over a longer period than four measures. I would say that jazz soloing and rapping are descended from this approach inasmuch as both involve subtle adjustments ahead/behind the beats in a western music "measure". This kind of replicates the rhythmic complexity of African drumming in an unnotable way. By the way, I imagine it would probably be difficult to rap over any rhythmic base that is intentionally unpredictable (unless you were very gifted). I would say that the most prominent characteristic of jazz are its contraints on improvisation, e.g. adherence to the chorus-based structure. Everything else is window dressing, IMO. Prior to the 60s, this structure was based on blues or popular songs (in a manner derived from the blues) and purely harmonic. However, Ornette Coleman's harmolodics blew the field wide open by substituting a different element in the structure, namely "melody." My non-musicologist ass likens this to the introduction of tone rows in serialism. By the way, I think the term IDM (like free jazz and punk) is less of a description of idiomatic tendencies than a set of common attitudes towards an established genre of music (e.g. experimentalism). I mean, what other similarities can you draw between post-electro Black Dog and the clipped house of Thomas Brinkmann? -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Just to add my 2 pesetos to this... I've been wondering lately... and thinking that I like the term IDM, because it seems to me (and I'm not all that well-versed in music history) that the great musics of the world all started out as dance music. It was only later that they became "intentionally and intelligently evolved" into music that you could kick back and just listen to alone. Gospel-->Ragtime-->Swing-->Jazz. House-->Techno-->IDM. I'm now getting really into jazz (by way of idm, mind you), especially people like Thelonius Monk, John Zorn and Chicago Underground Duo/Trio. I especially like ethnic jazz. There are some amazing recordings of 60s-70s Ethiopian funk/jazz out, which are among my favorites. Anyways... I'm getting into my own tastes now. If anyone has any must-have suggestions for intelli-jazz or ethnic jazz, please let me know. vzaem

quoted 52 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: R. Lim [mailto:rlim@escape.com] > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:15 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] What IDM sounds like > > > On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 mattu@mindspring.com wrote: > > > [someone else said]: > > > > >Jazz bares almost no resemblance to hiphop... Jazz is fundamentally > > >melodic > > > > I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic. Based on that, and > > its sociological roots, it bears quite a bit of resemblance. But I > > Rhythmically, African music differs in a fundamental way from western > music traditions in that it uses a combination of patterns with different > (and long) lengths and emphasis to create a complex rhythmic mesh that > repeats itself over a longer period than four measures. I would say that > jazz soloing and rapping are descended from this approach inasmuch as both > involve subtle adjustments ahead/behind the beats in a western music > "measure". This kind of replicates the rhythmic complexity of African > drumming in an unnotable way. By the way, I imagine it would probably be > difficult to rap over any rhythmic base that is intentionally > unpredictable (unless you were very gifted). > > I would say that the most prominent characteristic of jazz are its > contraints on improvisation, e.g. adherence to the chorus-based > structure. > Everything else is window dressing, IMO. Prior to the 60s, this structure > was based on blues or popular songs (in a manner derived from the blues) > and purely harmonic. However, Ornette Coleman's harmolodics blew the field > wide open by substituting a different element in the structure, namely > "melody." My non-musicologist ass likens this to the introduction of tone > rows in serialism. > > By the way, I think the term IDM (like free jazz and punk) is less of a > description of idiomatic tendencies than a set of common attitudes towards > an established genre of music (e.g. experimentalism). I mean, what other > similarities can you draw between post-electro Black Dog and the clipped > house of Thomas Brinkmann? > > -rob > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

The Roots are one of the few hip hop acts that utilize live instrumentation-- drums,bass,keyboard,vocals,vocal scratching.The energy they emit live is just unbelievable. tim

quoted 4 lines What about groups such as The Roots and Quasimoto? Admittedly hip-hop, not

>What about groups such as The Roots and Quasimoto? Admittedly hip-hop, not >rap, but they have been incorporating a lot of jazz fusion in the beats. > >Heather

_________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I saw Courtney Pine (English trumpeter) in Glastonbury a few years ago and he was accompanied by DJ Pogo (I think)... they mixed quite well, Pine's drummer used some simple HipHop beats, and Pine played some crazy free shit over that + mad scratching, worked quite well... except for the dodgy modern ballads, it was excellent.

quoted 5 lines What about groups such as The Roots and Quasimoto? Admittedly

> >What about groups such as The Roots and Quasimoto? Admittedly > hip-hop, not > >rap, but they have been incorporating a lot of jazz fusion in the beats. > > > >Heather

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

yo, my balls have been pretty IDM these days... -j --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, j snod wrote:

quoted 3 lines yo, my balls have been pretty IDM these days...

> yo, my balls have been pretty IDM these days... > > -j

Indeed. I've heard fascinating things about some of the recent EP releases of My Balls... not quite as much the "idm as free jazz" angle as much as an acknowledgement of esoteric eclecticness that mentally stimulates the intelligent mind.... ======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> "Capital punishment turns the state into a murderer. But imprisonment turns the state into a gay dungeon-master." -- Emo Philips ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I'm just going to start off by saying that it seems as though we're all thinking the same things regarding IDM, hip hop and jazz, but some of the ways we're saying it comes across as flawed. So that's just human nature. Regarding improvisation, I would also second Solenoid's disagreement on improv, considering a very important element to my own music (which I call IDM). Also, I believe that ML's tiki lounge CD has an improv track on it as well. I've been very disappointed by IDM artists who tend to "play the album as it was recorded" (a very simple way of looking at it) in the same way I was disappointed by bands who just gave me the same shit they laid down on the CD. But this is so opinion-based that it's hardly going to ever going to come to an agreement--I like improv, maybe others don't. Whatever, that's fine with me. Speaking of rap and improv, I listened to a friend of mine freestyle over an IDM artist at a show recently. She asked if she could give it a shot & the two of them managed to do something pretty cool. She said later that it was a weird experience because of the strange shifts in rhythm patterns in his stuff (think your typical run of the mill glitch), but to me it sounded pretty good. Anything's possible. cheers, Mark hellothisisalex www.hellothisisalex.com / records.hellothisisalex.com mp3s at www.raw42.com/cgi-bin/featuredartist.pl?artist=213 mark@hellothisisalex

IDM is the music that MTV plays between the music everyone likes. rw --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:27:28PM -0600, rw wrote:

quoted 1 line IDM is the music that MTV plays between the music everyone likes.

> IDM is the music that MTV plays between the music everyone likes.

Post of the year! Post of the year! -- :: atomly :: atomly@atomly.com | atomly@atdot.org | atomly@curiousnetworks.com http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 08:00 PM 3/31/01 +0200, skism wrote: > >free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly > >based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and > >down the scale for a half hour. mu said... >> derrr... can't say I'd quite agree with that. Even in its >> simplest terms, >> free jazz is an attempt to move away from chords, scales and >> soloists. >Coltrane's stuff certainly doesn't do this. his later music is modal, >in that he uses a particular mode or scale which he then improvises >using all the notes in the particular mode (rather fast). I don't consider Coltrane free jazz. He is clearly a precursor, and did much to expand the vocabulary of jazz, but I don't believe he rejected structures so much as expanded them. > >>John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the >> >probably the best example of this. > >> Of free jazz? Ornette's a good starting point, but that's like saying >> "Kraftwerk's probably the best example of electronic music". > I don't agree with this, I think coletrane & coleman are probably > the best and most of what came after was poor imatation (with > exceptions of course). That sounds to me like an opinion with a very limited perspective - and a whole other can of worms, and I'm not hungry right now. > And it's not the same as saying "Kraftwerk's probably the best..." > because electronic music was fairly new, whereas jazz had been established > for half a century. But free jazz hadn't - that's what they were being used as examples of... Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Sat, 31 Mar 2001, mu wrote:

quoted 3 lines I don't consider Coltrane free jazz. He is clearly a precursor, and did

> I don't consider Coltrane free jazz. He is clearly a precursor, and did > much to expand the vocabulary of jazz, but I don't believe he rejected > structures so much as expanded them.

Later Coltrane took many a cue from Albert Ayler, so I guess if you don't think of Ayler as free jazz... I agree that Trane wasn't really an innovator, but Christ, _Interstellar Space_ ain't no Kind of Blue.

quoted 7 lines [someone else said]:

> [someone else said]: > > I don't agree with this, I think coletrane & coleman are probably > > the best and most of what came after was poor imatation (with > > exceptions of course). > > That sounds to me like an opinion with a very limited perspective - and a > whole other can of worms, and I'm not hungry right now.

Yeah- I gotta agree that this is a pretty retarded statement to make, no matter how many painkillers you're on. -rob ps- Jan Garbarek's first four albums are very worthwhile pps- will get to Doron after intense Phthalo listening activity --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines i second thizz, lol

>i second thizz, lol > >IDM is the music that MTV plays between the music everyone likes. >

Furthermore, I'd like to know who the artists are in those segments cdin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i second thizz, lol IDM is the music that MTV plays between the music everyone likes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well then on that note I would have to say that; Electronica is what happens to IDM once it hits the pop charts. Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com Electronic Music For The Mind

quoted 5 lines IDM is the music that MTV plays between the music everyone likes.

> > > IDM is the music that MTV plays between the music everyone likes. > >

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org