IDM Mailing Archive

2000-06-15 19:19Chris Fahey> that sample is from a 12" that my girlfriend has, some old educational > record. it has

From:: Chris Fahey <chris.fahey@raremedium.com>
To:: idm <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:19:46 -0400
Subject:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

quoted 4 lines that sample is from a 12" that my girlfriend has, some old educational

> that sample is from a 12" that my girlfriend has, some old educational > record. it has an old(ish) man explaining filters, first he > says something > normally then throught the filter.

I am so disappointed by this. Here I am thinking that Luke Vibert was doing some kind of deconstructivist exercise, laying bare the tools of his craft within the song itself, a la the conceptual artist Alvin Lucier ("I am sitting in a room, different from the one you are in now") - I thought it was HIM speaking those lines. Granted, it's not a deep insight into the nature of music making or technology, but it's still a critically interesting aspect of that track. What's disappointing is that he used a sample to put forward a somewhat interesting pedagogical concept into a track when he could just as easily thought of and exectuted such a concept by himself. A lesser crime would have been if he heard that educational record and decided that he would reproduce it with *his own voice*, or at least if he had done something similar with other effects, maybe effects that are more relevant to his idiom ("I am now speaking through a <insert VST plug in here>."). But the fact that he would use a sample to create a sound/lyric/lesson which literally would have taken five minutes to create from scratch (less time than it probably took to sample the record) is kinda sad. And the fact that he couldn't take inspiration from the educational record and make something better is also sad. For all you flamers out there (aka, those humorless closed-minded tight-assed listmembers who didn't read the Tonya Headon site and laff your asses off): I'm not saying sampling is bad or that Luke Vibert is bad. I'm just saying its sad to see someone use a sample when doing the actual work might have generated more interesting results without too much additional effort. -Cf --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 19:41Adam PiontekOn Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:19:46 -0400, Chris Fahey wrote: >I'm not saying sampling is bad or

From:: Adam Piontek <damek@earthling.net>
To:: idm@hyperreal.org <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:41:48 -0500
Subject:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary
Reply to:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:19:46 -0400, Chris Fahey wrote:

quoted 4 lines I'm not saying sampling is bad or that Luke Vibert is bad. I'm

>I'm not saying sampling is bad or that Luke Vibert is bad. I'm >just saying its sad to see someone use a sample when doing the actual work >might have generated more interesting results without too much additional >effort.

I feel that way about a lot of samples in music. And just sampling culture as a whole. I don't think it's a bad thing, and a lot of excellent stuff has come out of sampling. On the other hand, I also feel that it can foster a lack of originality, creativity and inventiveness on the part of the artist as well. Of course, at the "my god, how horrible" end of the spectrum are artists like Puff Daddy who "make new songs" by "covering" classic old songs from other genres and saying "uh-huh" and "yeah" over them. That's not even sampling, that's just copying. ok, i stop now -adam -- Adam Piontek [http://www.tcinternet.net/users/damek/] ICQ: 3456339 [damek@earthling.net] ... "Earthman, the planet you lived on was paid for and run by mice." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 20:22anything@synthesizer.org>For all you flamers out there (aka, those humorless closed-minded >tight-assed listmember

From:: <anything@synthesizer.org>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:22:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: [idm] samplism
Reply to:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

quoted 6 lines For all you flamers out there (aka, those humorless closed-minded

>For all you flamers out there (aka, those humorless closed-minded >tight-assed listmembers who didn't read the Tonya Headon site and laff your >asses off): I'm not saying sampling is bad or that Luke Vibert is bad. I'm >just saying its sad to see someone use a sample when doing the actual work >might have generated more interesting results without too much additional >effort.

I love it when intersections like this pop up on the list. In another thread, people are discussing a tendency to focus on technique when critiquing music, and here we get a perfect example of that. What we have here is a case of disillusionment and resentment toward an artist. The only difference is one piece of information that shattered an ideal. There is no reason why he should reinvent the wheel, and there is no reason why he can't be considered to be collaborating in a time-delayed fashion with the man being sampled. Let the "suffering artist" crap go, it never did anyone any good. The piece sounds the same as when you didn't know it was a sample. -- http://www.synthesizer.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 20:46Josh Davisonthink of sampling as the same thing as collage. it's one thing to just take a photocopy of

From:: Josh Davison <yoshi@enteract.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:46:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing
Reply to:: [idm] samplism

think of sampling as the same thing as collage. it's one thing to just take a photocopy of the mona lisa and say it's your creation (Puffy Combs or Marcel Duchamp but that's a whole nother ball and stick em on your own painting, to some artistic effect ... i.e. the new context brings out a different characteristic in the mona lisa's eyes or they add an ambience to the piece without just saying "look it's the mona lisa's eyes" i think it's perfectly reputable. i did a track where i nicked a flute sample from a rather well known record (which i will not identify as the track is being released) but there is no way on earth anybody will identify it because 1) the sample is like four notes from a phrase of about 16 notes, which appears once in the song 2) the segment i nicked isn't a "characteristic" of the artist's work or the song in question. 3) i slowed it down so much you probably wouldn't guess it was a flute unless i told you 4) i used the sample to create a completely new melody based on the interaction of the notes played in the phrase, played back at two different speeds now tell me. is my artistic integrity at all lessened because I did not go out and find a real flute player and have him/her play the notes into my sampler? does the fact that i discovered the tune by exploring somebody elses record rather than planning it in advance make me less creative? i guess i would be more creative if i could have imagined the melody beforehand and then actualized it myself ... creation is by definition more creative than discovery. but it's a whole different skillset to be able to manipulate found sounds into a cohesive work. josh btw i agree with the original post to which i am replying in that if the song is good, the technique really doesn't matter. this even applies to puff daddy ... if you enjoy that Sting song that he jacked, then chances are you'll enjoy his track based on that riff, even if you know he jacked the riff. beat-jacking is fucking postmodern, dude. -- String Theory : Digital Music for Humans http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 anything@synthesizer.org wrote:

quoted 31 lines For all you flamers out there (aka, those humorless closed-minded

> >For all you flamers out there (aka, those humorless closed-minded > >tight-assed listmembers who didn't read the Tonya Headon site and laff your > >asses off): I'm not saying sampling is bad or that Luke Vibert is bad. I'm > >just saying its sad to see someone use a sample when doing the actual work > >might have generated more interesting results without too much additional > >effort. > > I love it when intersections like this pop up on the list. In another > thread, people are discussing a tendency to focus on technique when > critiquing music, and here we get a perfect example of that. > > What we have here is a case of disillusionment and resentment toward an > artist. The only difference is one piece of information that shattered an > ideal. There is no reason why he should reinvent the wheel, and there is > no reason why he can't be considered to be collaborating in a time-delayed > fashion with the man being sampled. Let the "suffering artist" crap go, it > never did anyone any good. > > The piece sounds the same as when you didn't know it was a sample. > > -- > http://www.synthesizer.org/ > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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2000-06-15 21:11Adam PiontekOn Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:46:39 -0500 (CDT), Josh Davison wrote: >think of sampling as the sa

From:: Adam Piontek <damek@earthling.net>
To:: idm@hyperreal.org <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:11:01 -0500
Subject:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing
Reply to:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing

On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:46:39 -0500 (CDT), Josh Davison wrote:

quoted 1 line think of sampling as the same thing as collage.

>think of sampling as the same thing as collage.

i do

quoted 2 lines it's a whole different

>it's a whole different >skillset to be able to manipulate found sounds into a cohesive work.

totally agree. but that's not recognized by your average joe.

quoted 2 lines btw i agree with the original post to which i am replying in that if the

>btw i agree with the original post to which i am replying in that if the >song is good, the technique really doesn't matter.

yes, if i enjoy something, i generally don't care how it was made, but i am interested to a certain extent, because the process of creation does affect how i perceive a work and it does affect the result. if you use a real instrument and your own notes in a track instead of a sample and the sampled notes, then the work is differen then it would have been, correct? one isn't better than the other, but it's different. oh, and i care how something is made also in the sense that it might have been made by forced child labor or something. i don't want to be supporting that. but that doesn't usually apply to music... :p

quoted 3 lines puff daddy ... if you enjoy that Sting song that he jacked, then chances

>puff daddy ... if you enjoy that Sting song that he jacked, then chances >are you'll enjoy his track based on that riff, even if you know he jacked >the riff. beat-jacking is fucking postmodern, dude.

yes, it's post-modern, which i love, but again, that's different from the way things used to be and it affects the artistic process. and i think that needs to be recognized. you can't quite perfectly compare, say, aphex twin, to, say, mozart, because their creative processes were different. as for sting and puff daddy, i find the puff daddy "version" extremely annoying. why? it's a matter of respect. it colors my perception of the music to know that it's so completely unoriginal. i have little respect for puffy. he also mangled that led zepplin song. it's not a matter of saying his process is wrong, or samples are wrong, it's a personal matter in this respect: sting and led zepplin were uniquely talented human beings, worthy of great respect, and created music that i enjoy on many levels. puffy jacks the songs (not just the beats, dammit) and pretends they're new songs. they're not -- they're weak covers at best. i know he did some words, but that puts him on the level of bad poet. -adam -- Adam Piontek [http://www.tcinternet.net/users/damek/] ICQ: 3456339 [damek@earthling.net] ... no snowflake ever falls in the wrong place --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 21:29Josh DavisonOn Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Adam Piontek wrote: > as for sting and puff daddy, i find the puff da

From:: Josh Davison <yoshi@enteract.com>
To:: Adam Piontek <damek@earthling.net>
Cc:: idm@hyperreal.org <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:29:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing
Reply to:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing

On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Adam Piontek wrote:

quoted 2 lines as for sting and puff daddy, i find the puff daddy "version"

> as for sting and puff daddy, i find the puff daddy "version" > extremely annoying. why? it's a matter of respect. it colors my

...

quoted 6 lines it's not a matter of saying his process is wrong, or samples are

> it's not a matter of saying his process is wrong, or samples are > wrong, it's a personal matter in this respect: sting and led zepplin > were uniquely talented human beings, worthy of great respect, and > created music that i enjoy on many levels. puffy jacks the songs > (not just the beats, dammit) and pretends they're new songs. they're > not -- they're weak covers at best.

i don't much care for Puff Daddy or his technique but i don't think he tries to pass off the tracks as his own work, i.e. he credits the original artists on the records (i mean if he didn't he'd get sued to hell and back!!) and he'd have to be stupid to think people arent' going to recognize hooks from Police or Led Zeppelin. It's more about a certain ethic in Hip Hop culture -- that of the name check. You appropriate somebody else's line or beat or a little hook from their song more as a tribute, or at least a knowing reference, rather than from a lack of creativity. Granted, Puffy takes it to completely unneccessary extremes. But take for example NWA's song Eight Ball -- they use a line from an old soul record about the "Diamond in the back, sunroof top" or something ( i have no idea who the artist is or if those are the actual lyrics ) ... anyway I think the way they worked the little reference to the song into the music is very creative, especially if you recognize the fact that when they would play the song live, there was actually a DJ dropping the actual phrase in from the original record as part of the song. Recognize also that the art of sampling and beat-jacking comes from the early days of hip hop when DJ's would create an entire track from using other artist's records, in real time on two turntables. This was not for lack of creativity, but for lack of funds and technology as many of the originators of hip hop did not have the cash resources to purchase "real instruments" and were inspired to make do with the tools at hand. -- String Theory : Digital Music for Humans http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 22:32Adam PiontekOn Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:29:13 -0500 (CDT), Josh Davison wrote: >i don't much care for Puff

From:: Adam Piontek <damek@earthling.net>
To:: idm@hyperreal.org <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:32:38 -0500
Subject:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing
Reply to:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing

On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:29:13 -0500 (CDT), Josh Davison wrote:

quoted 5 lines i don't much care for Puff Daddy or his technique but i don't think he

>i don't much care for Puff Daddy or his technique but i don't think he >tries to pass off the tracks as his own work, i.e. he credits the original >artists on the records (i mean if he didn't he'd get sued to hell and >back!!) and he'd have to be stupid to think people arent' going to >recognize hooks from Police or Led Zeppelin.

i know, i know. the personal side of me still finds it distasteful to know there are people hearing his versions first and loving them, only to discover later the influences and samples involved. like that sample on Vibert's Big Soup which started this whole thread

quoted 2 lines It's more about a certain ethic in Hip Hop culture -- that of the name

>It's more about a certain ethic in Hip Hop culture -- that of the name >check.

I totally agree. I love that. There's the other side of the coin, though, of using the skills of others to bolster your own. I know people who have heard those tracks and been like "i've heard that tune before, this must be the thing i like" ... and don't think puffy doesn't know this. using a cultural icon to further your own career is not nice.

quoted 6 lines Recognize also that the art of sampling and beat-jacking comes from the

>Recognize also that the art of sampling and beat-jacking comes from the >early days of hip hop when DJ's would create an entire track from using >other artist's records, in real time on two turntables. This was not for >lack of creativity, but for lack of funds and technology as many of the >originators of hip hop did not have the cash resources to purchase "real >instruments" and were inspired to make do with the tools at hand.

true that, and worth my respect. good points all around :) -adam -- Adam Piontek [http://www.tcinternet.net/users/damek/] ICQ: 3456339 [damek@earthling.net] ... Never go to bed mad. Stay up and fight. -- Phyllis Diller --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 23:09Wendy Kjosh - the NWA lyric & yr quote is correct. The artist is William DeVaughn, only short ter

From:: Wendy K <wendy@ninjatune.net>
To:: Josh Davison <yoshi@enteract.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:09:39 +0100
Subject:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing
Reply to:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing

josh - the NWA lyric & yr quote is correct. The artist is William DeVaughn, only short term memory loss and a crap record filing system prevent me from giving you the title of the track. The lyric goes "diamond in the back, sunroof top, kickin it lean like a ganster machine.... so of course it makes sense that NWA would boost up a ref like this. "White Lines" by Grandmaster Flash was a complete rip of "The Cavern" a little jazz funktual instrumental on 99 records as you correctly refer to it as beat-jacking which it was...Even Afrikaa Bambaattaa would fess to the influence of Kraftwerk Depeche Mode & Arthur Bakers remix work on New Order.. w: But take for example NWA's song Eight Ball -- they use a line from an old soul record about the "Diamond in the back, sunroof top" or something ( i have no idea who the artist is or if those are the actual lyrics ) ... anyway I think the way they worked the little reference to the song into the music is very creative, especially if you recognize the fact that when they would play the song live, there was actually a DJ dropping the actual phrase in from the original record as part of the song. Recognize also that the art of sampling and beat-jacking comes from the early days of hip hop when DJ's would create an entire track from using other artist's records, in real time on two turntables. This was not for lack of creativity, but for lack of funds and technology as many of the originators of hip hop did not have the cash resources to purchase "real instruments" and were inspired to make do with the tools at hand. coldcut on da radio mon nite 12am-2am gmt http://www.bbc.co.uk/londonlive http://www.worldtimezone.com zentertainment: wed nite 9pm - 3am http://www.piratetv.net http://www.ninjatune.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-16 00:20Brian MacDonaldOn Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Wendy K wrote: > "White Lines" by Grandmaster Flash was a complete ri

From:: Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:20:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing
Reply to:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Wendy K wrote:

quoted 2 lines "White Lines" by Grandmaster Flash was a complete rip of "The Cavern"

> "White Lines" by Grandmaster Flash was a complete rip of "The Cavern" > a little jazz funktual instrumental on 99 records

OK, wasn't there a Liquid Liquid song that "White Lines" was based on as well? ======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> KUCI 88.9 fM in Irvine, CA -- Orange County ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-16 00:25anything@synthesizer.org>On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Wendy K wrote: >> "White Lines" by Grandmaster Flash was a complete

From:: <anything@synthesizer.org>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:25:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing
Reply to:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing

quoted 6 lines On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Wendy K wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Wendy K wrote: >> "White Lines" by Grandmaster Flash was a complete rip of "The Cavern" >> a little jazz funktual instrumental on 99 records > >OK, wasn't there a Liquid Liquid song that "White Lines" was based on >as well?

Yes, it's called "Cavern." -- http://www.synthesizer.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-16 09:48Brian MacDonaldOn Thu, 15 Jun 2000 anything@synthesizer.org wrote: > >On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Wendy K wrote:

From:: Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:48:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing
Reply to:: Re: [idm] samplism and the vibert thing

On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 anything@synthesizer.org wrote:

quoted 8 lines On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Wendy K wrote:

> >On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Wendy K wrote: > >> "White Lines" by Grandmaster Flash was a complete rip of "The Cavern" > >> a little jazz funktual instrumental on 99 records > > > >OK, wasn't there a Liquid Liquid song that "White Lines" was based on > >as well? > > Yes, it's called "Cavern."

Aaah, you see... I didn't know the name of the song. And you didn't provide the name of the band... GODDAMN YOU! :) ======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> KUCI 88.9 fM in Irvine, CA -- Orange County ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 21:08Yonnie Lui>within the song itself, a la the conceptual artist Alvin Lucier ("I am >sitting in a room

From:: Yonnie Lui <lui@pop.interchange.ubc.ca>
To:: Chris Fahey <chris.fahey@raremedium.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:08:24 -0700
Subject:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary
Reply to:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

quoted 3 lines within the song itself, a la the conceptual artist Alvin Lucier ("I am

>within the song itself, a la the conceptual artist Alvin Lucier ("I am >sitting in a room, different from the one you are in now") - I thought it >was HIM speaking those lines.

so.... the sampling is taken from Alvin Lucier eh! i checked out Ryuichi Sakamoto BTTB gig in Seattle and that is the exact sampling panning through those PAs and i thought it was actually Sakamoto's own material! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 19:33esa ruohoChris Fahey wrote: > > that sample is from a 12" that my girlfriend has, some old educatio

From:: esa ruoho <esaruoho@dlc.fi>
To:: Chris Fahey <chris.fahey@raremedium.com>
Cc:: idm <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:33:08 +0300
Subject:: Re: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

Chris Fahey wrote:

quoted 8 lines that sample is from a 12" that my girlfriend has, some old educational

> > that sample is from a 12" that my girlfriend has, some old educational > > record. it has an old(ish) man explaining filters, first he > > says something > > normally then throught the filter. > I'm not saying sampling is bad or that Luke Vibert is bad. I'm > just saying its sad to see someone use a sample when doing the actual work > might have generated more interesting results without too much additional > effort.

i'm just guessing here but what if he chose to sample that because of the inflection and the texture of the voice, or that he liked the idea of having something like that in there. sometimes hearing something and sampling it is so much faster and so much more fresh than putting it down to bits and plagiarising it yourself, with possibly even worse results. when the original is "right", why _try_ to re-do it? i know when i finally get around to sampling these linguaphone vinyls i'll sample the bits that crack me up, and not write them down and speak/recreate them myself just for the point of being original.. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 20:05zachary mastoon>From: esa ruoho <esaruoho@dlc.fi> >To: Chris Fahey <chris.fahey@raremedium.com> >CC: idm

From:: zachary mastoon <zacharymastoon@hotmail.com>
To:: <esaruoho@dlc.fi>, <chris.fahey@raremedium.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:05:18 CDT
Subject:: Re: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

quoted 28 lines From: esa ruoho <esaruoho@dlc.fi>

>From: esa ruoho <esaruoho@dlc.fi> >To: Chris Fahey <chris.fahey@raremedium.com> >CC: idm <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: Re: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:33:08 +0300 > >Chris Fahey wrote: > > > that sample is from a 12" that my girlfriend has, some old educational > > > record. it has an old(ish) man explaining filters, first he > > > says something > > > normally then throught the filter. > > I'm not saying sampling is bad or that Luke Vibert is bad. I'm > > just saying its sad to see someone use a sample when doing the actual >work > > might have generated more interesting results without too much >additional > > effort. > >i'm just guessing here but what if he chose to sample that because >of the inflection and the texture of the voice, or that he liked the >idea of having something like that in there. sometimes hearing something >and sampling it is so much faster and so much more fresh than putting it >down to bits and plagiarising it yourself, with possibly even worse >results. when the original is "right", why _try_ to re-do it? > >i know when i finally get around to sampling these linguaphone vinyls >i'll sample the bits that crack me up, and not write them down and >speak/recreate them myself just for the point of being original..

exactly. on KMD's album, "Mr. Hood," they staged conversations with a dusty language record, sampling bits and pieces of it to make it coherent. they even threw in a dis from the record, "your mother likes to visit the old churches." IMHO, sampling is used most widely for not only what is being said/played/whatever, but for capturing 1) the medium on which it was recorded (catching pops of vinyl, tape hiss, etc.), 2) nuances of the recording itself, and 3) possible cultural/musical references construed in the music (i.e., a LOT of artists in hip-hop sample the music and lyrics of their predecessors.) luke could've recreated the ring modulation himself, but that's besides the point. i am not saying vibert or any other artist using extensive samples has a certain goal of retaining any of the above qualities i mentioned, but i think you'll agree sampling richard pryor for instance is a lot funnier and authentic than saying whatever it is he said yourself. zachary zacharymastoon@hotmail.com np- pole 1 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 21:36Chris Fahey> i think you'll agree sampling richard pryor for instance is a > lot funnier > and authen

From:: Chris Fahey <chris.fahey@raremedium.com>
To:: 'zachary mastoon' <zacharymastoon@hotmail.com>, <esaruoho@dlc.fi>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:36:49 -0400
Subject:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

quoted 3 lines i think you'll agree sampling richard pryor for instance is a

> i think you'll agree sampling richard pryor for instance is a > lot funnier > and authentic than saying whatever it is he said yourself.

Well, of course, Richard Pryor uttering a practically unintelligible rhyme is one thing, what with it having a certain timbre, texture, timing, and feel that is inimitably his own. But the "ring modulator" thing struck me on a lyrical and conceptual level, not so much on a textural level. Including words and lessons about electronic music in an elevctronic music peice to me is quite interesting. But in the immortal words of Tonya Headon: "Yes kids, any blunted moron with a sampler can now become an musical icon! The idea that someone would purposely take the do-it-yourself-even-if-you-have-no-talent aesthetic of bad punk music and combine it with the worst idea in hip-hop (namely that the more obscure your sample is, the better the result) staggers me. The fact that a lot of people like it is pretty damn typical." I too am guilty of appreciating samples for their esotericness: when I do recognize a sample on a track, I usually feel a certain degree of pride in my own coolness - plus I feel a certain affinity for the artist him/herself. The flip side of this is when I hear a song for the first time and realize that it is the sample source for something more familiar to me that I thought was really really cool, I am usually quite disappointed in the artist. I remember a two week period where I heard just about half of the basic ingredients that went into Amon Tobin's bricolage as a coworker was blasting his be-bop records. To realize that a song that I really liked, from the whole timbre to the drum solo to the horn riffs is simply a cobbling together of samples from two not-at-all-obscure Charlie Parker records is a terrible disappointment. That said, when the sample comes from that certain middle strata of esotericness, that is, from such sources as high-middlebrow movies like Repo Man or the Matrix (fine films, but hardly esoteric), I cringe even more. Especially when the sample has intelligible words in it. Vibert/Plug's Barton Fink sample is sufficiently ironic to not make me puke, but it's damn close to being cheesy. I know most IDMers don't like songs with words, but for me if a sample has words in it, the artist is using those words to say something that I want to pay attention to. In the "ring modulator" case, his statement could have been more interesting had he been open to the idea of actually using a microphone and saying some ideas. This probably never ocurred to him (hell, he may not even have a microphone in his studio!) and I'm afraid that the reason why it didn't occur to him because his idiom (electronic music, trip hop, drum-n-bass) doesn't usually include words. Which is why I have some real respect for Bodgan Raczynski for using his own voice to say things instead of using samples ro repeat other peoples words. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-15 22:14Adam PiontekOn Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:36:49 -0400, Chris Fahey wrote: >I know most IDMers don't like song

From:: Adam Piontek <damek@earthling.net>
To:: idm@hyperreal.org <idm@hyperreal.org>, Chris Fahey <chris.fahey@raremedium.com>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:14:49 -0500
Subject:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary
Reply to:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:36:49 -0400, Chris Fahey wrote:

quoted 10 lines I know most IDMers don't like songs with words, but for me if a sample has

>I know most IDMers don't like songs with words, but for me if a sample has >words in it, the artist is using those words to say something that I want to >pay attention to. In the "ring modulator" case, his statement could have >been more interesting had he been open to the idea of actually using a >microphone and saying some ideas. This probably never ocurred to him (hell, >he may not even have a microphone in his studio!) and I'm afraid that the >reason why it didn't occur to him because his idiom (electronic music, trip >hop, drum-n-bass) doesn't usually include words. Which is why I have some >real respect for Bodgan Raczynski for using his own voice to say things >instead of using samples ro repeat other peoples words.

wow, someone else who likes IDM but also appreciates words in music -- nice to meet you! I absolutely love the fact that Bogdan actually has lyrics. As good as good instrumental music is, there's something completely different and unexplored (by IDM people) in a good _song_... and playing with vocals (ie. bola's mauver and recent funkstorung) is not quite what i'm talking about. -adam -- Adam Piontek [http://www.tcinternet.net/users/damek/] ICQ: 3456339 [damek@earthling.net] ... "Oh no, not again!" - thought the bowl of petunias as it fell. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-16 10:26alex_tea> I absolutely love the fact that Bogdan actually has lyrics. As good > as good instrument

From:: alex_tea <alex_tea@popstar.com>
To:: idm <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:26:29 +0100
Subject:: Re: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

quoted 7 lines I absolutely love the fact that Bogdan actually has lyrics. As good

> I absolutely love the fact that Bogdan actually has lyrics. As good > as good instrumental music is, there's something completely different > and unexplored (by IDM people) in a good _song_... and playing with > vocals (ie. bola's mauver and recent funkstorung) is not quite what > i'm talking about. > > -adam

bogdan's lyrics are so good as well. fnck you dj just has me cracking up all the time. and the one about the girl with the breasts. and he even mentions giant robots in one song. amazing. and what a good thread this has been. hopefully idm can continue to be like this and leave the bullshit behind. ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-23 18:54Roy G BivsAMPLING CHEESY OLD RECORDS IS PRETTY MUCH luKE vIBERT'S sPECIALTY. if you're disappointed

From:: Roy G Biv <roy-g-biv@eudoramail.com>
To:: idm <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:54:03 -0400
Subject:: RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary

sAMPLING CHEESY OLD RECORDS IS PRETTY MUCH luKE vIBERT'S sPECIALTY. if you're disappointed that he did this, you would have to be disappointed with all his work. At the time (and maybe even still now) Luke didn't have any VST plug-ins. just a MIDI set-up: sampler, a basic sequncing program on an atari, drum machine a synth or two. imho: the man made some of the greatest contributions to IDM with 'Throbbing Pouch' and the 3 Plug E.P.s His releases after 'Drum'n'bass for pappa' have been watered down. enjoyable, but not in the same league (not as wonderfully creative)as his early stuff -roy On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:19:46 Chris Fahey wrote:

quoted 21 lines I am so disappointed by this. ... What's >disappointing is that he used a

>I am so disappointed by this. ... What's >disappointing is that he used a >sample to put forward a somewhat interesting >pedagogical concept into a >track when he could just as easily thought of >and exectuted such a concept >by himself. > >A lesser crime would have been if he heard >that educational record and >decided that he would reproduce it with *his >own voice*, or at least if he >had done something similar with other effects, >maybe effects that are more >relevant to his idiom ("I am now speaking >through a <insert VST plug in >here>."). But the fact that he would use a >sample to create a >sound/lyric/lesson which literally would have >taken five minutes to create >from scratch (less time than it probably took >to sample the record) is kinda >sad. And the fact that he couldn't take >inspiration from the educational >record and make something better is also sad. > >For all you flamers out there (aka, those >humorless closed-minded >tight-assed listmembers who didn't read the >Tonya Headon site and laff your >asses off): I'm not saying sampling is bad or >that Luke Vibert is bad. I'm >just saying its sad to see someone use a sample when doing the actual work >might have generated more interesting results >without too much additional >effort.

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RE: [idm] Big Soup Question - Sampling Commentary