IDM Mailing Archive

Correct me if I'm wrong (I know you will :) I thought, years ago, when I first got into IDM that the term was supposed to mean the 'intelligent' upper crust of dance music (techno). At the time this was embodied by the Warp releases, the Aphex Twin, the Orb, Fax, etc. It was my understanding that IDM wasn't supposed to just mean those groups and albums, but was rather supposed to change with the times, so those were the IDM groups of that era and maybe today we have an entirely new set of musicians making IDM. So, when people say that IDM groups aren't innovating any more then I say that they aren't IDM groups right now. However, their past albums are still IDM for their time and their future albums may be IDM in that time. A related question is whether innovation is necessary for intelligence. Can't a well executed peice of music be enjoyable, fresh, danceable, and listenable without actually being innovative? Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and "idm" notwithstanding). So, I think it's pointless to talk about whether goa or trance or ambient or jungle or electro or hardcore or breakbeat or disco or euro or techno are innovative, but it is interesting to talk about whether certain groups within all of those subgenres are doing interesting things within (or without) those genres. ps, why is the GOA discussion subject line RTTS + Cab. Volt.? [fletcher]

At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote:

quoted 1 line Correct me if I'm wrong (I know you will :)

>Correct me if I'm wrong (I know you will :)

It's just opinions...

quoted 3 lines A related question is whether innovation is necessary for intelligence.

>A related question is whether innovation is necessary for intelligence. >Can't a well executed peice of music be enjoyable, fresh, danceable, >and listenable without actually being innovative? ^^^^^

You're contradicting yourself - can something be 'fresh' without being 'innovative' in some way? Enjoyable, yes. Danceable, yes. Listenable, yes.

quoted 3 lines Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of

>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of >music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and >"idm" notwithstanding).

What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. || [CiM] || s.walley@uea.ac.uk || http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~u9323899/

quoted 3 lines Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of

>>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and >>"idm" notwithstanding).

quoted 1 line What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative.

>What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative.

So, you are saying every musician who is turning out 'Jungle' is innovative? How do you decide whether a musician is turning out 'Jungle'? If I label my CD as 'Jungle' and get it put in the 'Jungle' section at Tower am I innovative? These are the sorts of questions which lead to my statement. It's too hard to define the boundaries of a genre. So, I think it's silly to define a genre as innovative (unless you play lingquistic games as above). [fletcher]

A clarification... I don't mean to jump on any particular genre. Indeed, that is the very behavior which I think is silly! I think genre names are useful solely as broad classifications of music. They serve as place cards in your local underground vinyl shop. They serve as a quick way to tell someone what the basic feel of a track is. I think that we will find 'intelligent' and 'unintelligent' dance music in each of the dance genres. I personally find that my favorite groups, and the groups I tend to consider the most innovative, actually cross genre boundaries. They unite disparate elements from different musical frameworks into one glorious whole. So, I think we should talk about groups rather than genres! I do not that think that underground equals innovative or mainstream equals boring. Your mileage may vary. [fletcher] - [please check accompanying instructions before using this test bay - the o r b]

quoted 7 lines At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote:

>At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote: > >>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and >>"idm" notwithstanding). > >What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative.

well it WAS. snow

On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote:

quoted 12 lines At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote:

> >At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote: > > > >>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of > >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and > >>"idm" notwithstanding). > > > >What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. > > well it WAS. > > snow >

and Rap?

On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Moran wrote:

quoted 15 lines On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote:

> > > On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote: > > > >At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote: > > > > > >>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of > > >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and > > >>"idm" notwithstanding). > > > > > >What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. > > > > well it WAS. > > > and Rap?

Almost every new genre was innovative as it started, blending things not blended before and giving sounds a new aroma. Keeping that aroma or enhancing it is the problem. snow

quoted 3 lines Almost every new genre was innovative as it started, blending things

>Almost every new genre was innovative as it started, blending things >not blended before and giving sounds a new aroma. Keeping that aroma >or enhancing it is the problem.

Genres are only created when a number of musical groups or albums are retroactively placed under a unifying moniker. The creation of a genre is a sign of stagnation. An eddy in the forward flow of music. This is not a bad thing, for in these vortices of genre specific work there is both forward and backward motion. Genre specific works can churn up new ideas and it is out of these eddies that new innovative works eventually spring. Now, if you want to start a movement and write a manifesto, that's a whole different story. You cannot 'start' a genre. Though it can be seen in retrospect that you were the start of a genre. So, since we can only look back on genres, if you can place a new album in a genre then it is not substantially innovative. If you have a hard time placing it in a genre then it may be innovative. I should bracket all this with a small clarification that I am talking about subgenres of techno music. The genre of techno itself is in a much larger framework. So by genre I mean ambient house, goa, electro, etc. [fletcher]

quoted 14 lines Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of

> > > >>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of > > > >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and > > > >>"idm" notwithstanding). > > > > > > > >What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. > > > > > > well it WAS. > > > > > and Rap? > > Almost every new genre was innovative as it started, blending things > not blended before and giving sounds a new aroma. Keeping that aroma > or enhancing it is the problem. >

Yeah... I am disappointed with most rap artists now a days.. There just is not the innovation. I used to be heavily into rap.. but the exploration just ceased to be there density wise.. so it made me open to ambient.. I just hope there is no end to innovation.. I suppose innovation is merely due to context.. then I guess I should not be scared.. M

On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Moran wrote:

quoted 4 lines Yeah... I am disappointed with most rap artists now a days.. There just

> > Yeah... I am disappointed with most rap artists now a days.. There just > is not the innovation. I used to be heavily into rap.. but the > exploration just ceased to be there density wise..

I think the rap scene has become slow to innovate the last couple of years. _Fear of a Black Planet_ in spots had reached maximum density. Everyone including Public Enemy pulled back density-wise. It seems to me what's been happening the last couple of years, first, is the more explicit integration of the stripped-down 70's funk sound, as in Dr. Dre productions. I think Paris did a far better job on _Guerilla Funk_ even if it might suggest a bit of bandwagon-jumping. Especially in light of his excellent _The Devil Made Me Do It_ (90?) and _Sleeping With the Enemy_ (92?) which are thick and dark sample-collage ala Bomb Squad but with his own clear identity. Two other notable arists are Cypress Hill and Wu Tang Clan. Cypress Hill, for better or worse, are responsible for the whole blunt/cheeba thing far as I can tell. Muggs' production is stripped down, solidly in control of atmosphere. It's not just about how complex the rhythms are. I think the scene went back to the original idea about rhythm and poetry, and ended up going back to the old-school beats but changing the kind of samples and sounds used on top. That's where Wu Tang Clan come in. There's the debut _Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)_. Very stripped down but surprising samples, unbelievable funk and an atmosphere you can truly feel. Method Man, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Raekwon and Genius/GZA have solo albums out. Method Man's is pretty tight and wigged. Ol' Dirty Bastard's includes various interludes and spoken segments, samples from all over, leans toward the comic. Raekwon's is tough, wise, smart and way funky. Genius/GZA's is probably the darkest but ultimately full of hope. Public Enemy's output has been disappointing the last few years. A Tribe Called Quest took a step backwards on their last release. Naughty by Nature were never the innovators but they've become completely uninspired. Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell themselves to a wide (white) audience as some kind of gun-totin' bitch-slappin' n***as, which frankly insults my intelligence. (I'm white if you think it matters.) But hip-hop (along with techno) is really the mining ground for the future of pop and dance music, even if the scene is a little slow at the moment. --Mark Kolmar

quoted 2 lines A Tribe

> A Tribe > Called Quest took a step backwards on their last release.

Dead wrong my brother.. I think Tribe have done the Miles scene better than anyone else. Aside from that though, the most underated producer (I don't want to categorize but..) in rap is Ali Shaheem Muhammed (spelling is my fortee).. The man produces innovatively on the same lines as the "innovators" you've discussed.. If Muggs is an innovator, Shaheem definitely is an innovator on Midnight Murauders. I have not heard any body rip off tribe yet.. either people can't, or they just don't want to.. either way, I think it is a testament to tribes innovation..

quoted 2 lines Naughty by

> Naughty by > Nature were never the innovators but they've become completely uninspired.

Naughty By Nature? What are we talking about again.. I thought we were in the context of intelligent music.

quoted 3 lines Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell

> Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell > themselves to a wide (white) audience as some kind of gun-totin' > bitch-slappin' n***as, which frankly insults my intelligence.

I don't think you should value musical innovation by the artists' intention. It is not clear to me how to value art, but even if Dre meant to rip off the whole fucking world with no intention to innovate, why should his creation fall because of it. As well, "gun totin niggas" is just what it is pegged within the context of white discourse over music.. Words in one context are obviously different in another.. Judging "gun tottin" must be judged in its own context.. And unless I've been asleep for the last 15 yrs, rap has definitely developed its own language.. "You down with MBD? yeah you know me!!" Fuck man, I can rap better than Naughty By Nature.. Ciao, and there just ain't enough talk of rap in this forum.. Rap is intelligence dance music or at least a superset of idm.. Good discussion.. M

On Thu, 23 Nov 1995, Moran wrote:

quoted 4 lines A Tribe

> > A Tribe > > Called Quest took a step backwards on their last release. > > Dead wrong my brother..

Please read on...

quoted 2 lines I think Tribe have done the Miles scene better

> I think Tribe have done the Miles scene better > than anyone else.

I agree. Their first two albums are innovative and great. However, I thought that on _Midnight Marauders_ they traded in part of their sound for something more conventional and less distinctive.

quoted 2 lines I have not heard any

> I have not heard any > body rip off tribe yet..

I guess you must have missed Digable Planets...

quoted 3 lines Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell

> > Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell > > themselves to a wide (white) audience as some kind of gun-totin' > > bitch-slappin' n***as, which frankly insults my intelligence.

[...]

quoted 5 lines As well, "gun totin niggas" is just what it is pegged within the context

> As well, "gun totin niggas" is just what it is pegged within the context > of white discourse over music.. Words in one context are obviously > different in another.. Judging "gun tottin" must be judged in its own > context.. And unless I've been asleep for the last 15 yrs, rap has > definitely developed its own language..

To expand on what I said -- or was trying to say: What offends me about Dr. Dre, Snoop Doggy Dogg and post-Ice-Cube NWA, is that from what I can see they take the ignorant, pervasive stereotypes about African- Americans, turn them into a big cartoon and sell them back to white America. Face it--you don't get those kinds of sales figures unless you reach a market outside the hip-hop scene. _EFIL4ZAGGIN_, for example, is deeply offensive to me because it may -appear- that the sales reflect white America embracing black culture, but I think it actually reinforces prejudice and stereotypes. Dre may be making some money, and even making some decent music, but at what cost? On the other hand I see no such problem with Public Enemy, Cypress Hill and others who have reached a mass audience. --Mark Kolmar

quoted 4 lines A Tribe

> > > A Tribe > > > Called Quest took a step backwards on their last release. > > > > Dead wrong my brother..

I find tribe exceptionally boring ....they were good 3 years ago... Old De La Soul though..like ..._is_dead_ is brilliant though...tracks like "tread water" [which uses a deep low bassy sample of a guy "saying "tread water" to awesome effect...reminds me of bass kitten's "get a grip(mission st)".. otherwise i think Ice Cube is fantastic...disregarding message and gangsta bullshit he's incredible, and the beats are superb...but everyone knows that i guess.. ..my favorite right now though is ICP...Insane Clown Posse...they're ...well, insane, and their music is so different and so good...._Riddle_Box_ [and probably other realeases but i havent heard them], features some hip hop with circus music samples [soooooooooo good], crazy little interludes, good basslines, fantastic beats, cypress hill-ish [kinda] rap, and wicked good lyrics. I call it gothic rap with perhaps a giddy lunatic clown edge? i dunno but it's great...if anyone knows more, please tell me...it was my impression they're from detroit... j

What is IDM? I use this term just because to most of us it has a positive ring to it. IDM might mean merely innovative. some of you might be outraged to see the words innovative and merely go side by side. I think it is rather appropriate because I realy hate the feeling I get when I hear a track and I think to myself 'Nice trick, nice thought', smile the special smile to myself and that's all. Realy good music should be more than that. Concept isn't all! Ideas aren't the goal, they are just means to a goal and this goal is my soul. I like to dance with a smile which is caused by a track that I realy couldn't figure out not how the hell did they do this or that, but HOW THE HELL DID THEY KNOW ?!?! snow

Hello, does anyone on the list know what else Ultramarine has put out besides Every Man & Woman is a Star and United Kingdoms? I just recognized one of the songs towards the end of Every M&W as being the theme music for MTV's ridiculous "House of Style" program. I am also wondering what opinions idm subscribers have about Stereolab. Its hard to classify them as anything in particular, but I assume they probably share fans with the idm genre. I wouldn't readily call it dance music, but they definately have created thier own uniquely intelligent sound and feel. Thanks in advance. greg.

Gregory Ed Sullivan wrote:

quoted 6 lines Hello, does anyone on the list know what else Ultramarine has put out

> > Hello, does anyone on the list know what else Ultramarine has put out > besides Every Man & Woman is a Star and United Kingdoms? I just > recognized one of the songs towards the end of Every M&W as being the > theme music for MTV's ridiculous "House of Style" program. >

An abridged Ultramarine discography might include (this is basically my collection, I don't claim to have everything by them!) Reissues may include extra tracks. (as A Primary Industry) Ultramarine (1988) (as Ultramarine) Wyndham Lewis EP (1989) Folk (1990, reiss. 1994) Stella 12" (1991) <some other 12" in here> Every Man and Woman Is a Star (1991, reiss.1993) Nightfall in Sweetleaf EP (1993) Nightfall in Sweetleaf (promo, extra track...1993) Kingdom CDS (1993) United Kingdoms (1994) Happy Land CDS (1994) Barefoot EP (1994) Bel Air (1995) Anybody wish to add here? I know this is sketchy. ------------------------------------------------|---------------------------- "Categories strain, crack and break... | Harvey Thornburg Step out of the space provided." | ------------ -Steven Stapleton (1979) | hthornbu@osiris.ac.hmc.edu ------------------------------------------------|----------------------------

quoted 5 lines I am also wondering what opinions idm subscribers have about Stereolab. Its

>I am also wondering what opinions idm subscribers have about Stereolab. Its >hard to classify them as anything in particular, but I assume they >probably share fans with the idm genre. I wouldn't readily >call it dance music, but they definately have created thier own >uniquely intelligent sound and feel. Thanks in advance.

not a big fan but like them. I'd rather put them under easy listening. but the gentle people are also there and so is IDM. snow

On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote:

quoted 8 lines I am also wondering what opinions idm subscribers have about Stereolab. Its

> >I am also wondering what opinions idm subscribers have about Stereolab. Its > >hard to classify them as anything in particular, but I assume they > >probably share fans with the idm genre. I wouldn't readily > >call it dance music, but they definately have created thier own > >uniquely intelligent sound and feel. Thanks in advance. > > not a big fan but like them. I'd rather put them under easy listening. > but the gentle people are also there and so is IDM.

Don't they remind you of some french progressive rock group? It can be said of a lot of groups discussed in this list that they are 90's prog rock... I would say bullshit.. but stereolab is just a little to flakey.. Its like we're back to the nonsensical 70s where lyrics like: "Close to the edge, down by the corner!" are not the utter play on the ambiguity of language that they seem in the 90s. M

On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Moran wrote:

quoted 20 lines On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote: > > > >I am also wondering what opinions idm subscribers have about Stereolab. Its > > >hard to classify them as anything in particular, but I assume they > > >probably share fans with the idm genre. I wouldn't readily > > >call it dance music, but they definately have created thier own > > >uniquely intelligent sound and feel. Thanks in advance. > > > > not a big fan but like them. I'd rather put them under easy listening. > > but the gentle people are also there and so is IDM. > > Don't they remind you of some french progressive rock group? It can be > said of a lot of groups discussed in this list that they are 90's prog > rock... I would say bullshit.. but stereolab is just a little to flakey.. > Its like we're back to the nonsensical 70s where lyrics like: > > "Close to the edge, down by the corner!" > > are not the utter play on the ambiguity of language that they seem in the > 90s.

French Prog rock is not all prog rock. In fact I like it better. Take gong for example, they are nothing like other prog rock band's bombasatic sagas and other hubristic behaviour. Gong in fact remind me a lot of the goa vibe. Language as a plaything is crucial for modern art but I don't think it's ess entiality to be a good thing. snow

quoted 15 lines Don't they remind you of some french progressive rock group? It can be

> > Don't they remind you of some french progressive rock group? It can be > > said of a lot of groups discussed in this list that they are 90's prog > > rock... I would say bullshit.. but stereolab is just a little to flakey.. > > Its like we're back to the nonsensical 70s where lyrics like: > > > > "Close to the edge, down by the corner!" > > > > are not the utter play on the ambiguity of language that they seem in the > > 90s. > > French Prog rock is not all prog rock. In fact I like it better. > Take gong for example, they are nothing like other prog rock band's > bombasatic sagas and other hubristic behaviour. Gong in fact remind me > a lot of the goa vibe. Language as a plaything is crucial for modern > art but I don't think it's ess entiality to be a good thing.

Yeah.. nothing is really good or bad.. But the cheesy manner in which any band practices on ambiguity is definitely (although not objectively) a bad thing.. I never want to claim a hierarchy for art.. However, in my opinion, there is no room for crap in the small time one has to devour the good shit, you know what I mean? M

I don't understand how Yes's unintelligible lyrics have anything to do with Laetitia Sadier's (Sterolab) mostly political/philosophical lyrics. I have never got a cheesy "prog" feeling from Stereolab, only because the way they project their sound on record immediately dispells those attributes. But I am not going to argue that they are dance music, because they aren't. Just thought I'd see what other people though compared to my own opinion. Thanks for the feedback. greg. On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Moran wrote:

quoted 23 lines On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote: > > > >I am also wondering what opinions idm subscribers have about Stereolab. Its > > >hard to classify them as anything in particular, but I assume they > > >probably share fans with the idm genre. I wouldn't readily > > >call it dance music, but they definately have created thier own > > >uniquely intelligent sound and feel. Thanks in advance. > > > > not a big fan but like them. I'd rather put them under easy listening. > > but the gentle people are also there and so is IDM. > > Don't they remind you of some french progressive rock group? It can be > said of a lot of groups discussed in this list that they are 90's prog > rock... I would say bullshit.. but stereolab is just a little to flakey.. > Its like we're back to the nonsensical 70s where lyrics like: > > "Close to the edge, down by the corner!" > > are not the utter play on the ambiguity of language that they seem in the > 90s. > > M >

On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Gregory Ed Sullivan wrote:

quoted 9 lines I don't understand how Yes's unintelligible lyrics have anything to do

> I don't understand how Yes's unintelligible lyrics have anything to do > with Laetitia Sadier's (Sterolab) mostly political/philosophical lyrics. > I have never got a cheesy "prog" feeling from Stereolab, only because > the way they project their sound on record immediately dispells those > attributes. But I am not going to argue that they are dance music, because > they aren't. Just thought I'd see what other people though compared to > my own opinion. Thanks for the feedback. > > greg.

I suppose I am wrong in the sense that any interpretation can be drawn from any work.. But in my opinion there are better ways of expressing within the confines of StereoLab.. One of my roomates would blast the shit over and over.. Not that I hated it immediately, but after repetitive listening, it disturbed me. I found it (relating it to my youth) as pretentious as Jon Anderson (i think his name is) sang choir like vocals on Yes's albums.. That is where the quote comes from.. I am not aware of any lyrical meaning from Stereolab probably because I haven't payed enough attention.. But on the whole, I'll allow myself to dislike them.. Those females drive me up the wall..

At 03:37 PM 11/15/95 -0800, you wrote:

quoted 10 lines Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of

>>>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of >>>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and >>>"idm" notwithstanding). > >>What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. > >So, you are saying every musician who is turning out 'Jungle' >is innovative? How do you decide whether a musician is turning >out 'Jungle'? If I label my CD as 'Jungle' and get it put in >the 'Jungle' section at Tower am I innovative?

I think what he's trying to communicate to you is that Jungle is a style that has evolved over time into a genre that some people like and pursue an interest in. At some point they may put out music that they feel would be a worthwhile addition to the vocabulary and history of Jungle. These are people who are fans and artists to whom the term "Jungle" is more than a label or buzzword. What that "more" actually consists of is a matter of taste and interest, neither of which you are likely to find at Tower. eh p.s. More electro, please.

quoted 5 lines What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative.

>> >What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. >> >> well it WAS. > >and Rap?

Well, obviously genres can start out being 'intelligent' or 'innovative', but as these genres acquire more artists and listeners, you're bound to eventually end up with some crap. I suppose the more general the term for a type of music, the better; once you establish parameters and stylistic guidelines for a type of music then that restricts to a certain degree where individual artists fit in to the classification scheme. Hip-hop has unfortunately become very boring and formulaic. Maybe MC Solaar or Method Man should put Luke Vibert or Tricky in the producer's seat (or how about Mu-ziq vs. the Dogg Pound? ;) Now that kind of collaboration would produce some interesting results. GD

On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, GD wrote:

quoted 1 line Hip-hop has unfortunately become very boring and formulaic. Maybe MC

> Hip-hop has unfortunately become very boring and formulaic. Maybe MC

Solaar or Method Man should put Luke Vibert or Tricky in the producer's seat (or how about Mu-ziq vs. the Dogg Pound? ;) Now that kind of collaboration would produce some interesting results. Pardon? Well, I suppose the scene isn't as exciting as it was from around '87-'91... That G-Funk thing got boring to me almost immediately. Method Man's _Tical_ kicked my ass. Tricky, strong as he is, has got nothing on The RZA. Also check out another in the continuing Wu Tang saga: _Only Built 4 Cuban Linx_ by Raekwon. It includes some interludes, dialog and interruptions and therefore is not as tight as _Tical_ but both are 4 star. They take the old school '86 sound and the Bomb Squad sample-collage and mix them up in new ways. Some of the best hip hop being made now. Incidentally it was Tricky who put The RZA in the producer's seat. Don't know the title of the single, but it's credited to Tricky and the Gravediggaz. --Mark

quoted 6 lines On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Moran wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Moran wrote: > >> >> Yeah... I am disappointed with most rap artists now a days.. There just >> is not the innovation. I used to be heavily into rap.. but the >> exploration just ceased to be there density wise..

For some real innovative rap, check out Earthling's album "Radar", cool dubby beats and some brilliant lyrics ! ObIDM : What's the word on the new Cristian Vogel album ? Otto

Zenon "Firestarter" Feszczak <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu> wrote:

quoted 3 lines Here are some obnoxiously biased opinions, fools to the fire:

> Here are some obnoxiously biased opinions, fools to the fire: > 1. My impression of the term "intelligent dance music" is that the > music should appeal to one's mind in addition to one's senses.

Not as obnoxious as the Prodigy video, but close! Just kidding Zenon! Zenon does not appreciate the Prodigy, nor Mr. Prodigy's new hairdo. He claims that there is a lawsuit filed by A Flock of Seagulls and I would not be too surprised you know. Oh yeah... IDM... Submitted for your approval... This list was originally started to cover Aphex Twin, no? (I don't know I'm asking) - The discussions grew to include other electronic musics/musicians that shared various degrees of Aphexosity (it's in the dictionary, that one). Warp Records comes to mind as qualifying. Warp has a seres of compilations called "Artificial Intelligence" (really?). AI is a term that refers to the "intelligence" of a computer (memory, calculations, etc...). Another qualification for AI is that the computer/system must be able to generate new output on it's own (sounds like the ever changing and *evolving* progressions that create new harmonic/melodic/noisy permutations when layered and looped - Autechre, anyone?) Electronic music is very often generated with the aid of a computer. There is a nifty part in the liner notes in Artificial Intelligence II on Warp about this very thing (but reads more intelligently - smile). Music cannot be intelligent (intellectually speaking). IDM should really be called ILoDM (Intelligent Listeners of Dance Music) if it is referring to whom it appeals to. Actually, let's *not* call it that. Einstein ate ice cream but did not listen to IDM. Hmmmm... I bet he thought Pierre Schaefer (sp) was pretty darned neat, though! My lunch hour is done and so am I. (collective sighs all around the virtual table) Anyone buy this? The whole "define" IDM thing is really (unexplainably) a pet peeve of mine! Not ranting, just... O.K. I am ranting - but quietly and nicely. My $.02 yet again, -t

Intelligent is a term that we apply to our music, because we're all anal about the level of hipness it gives us for micro-pigeonholing our music. That's my reason at least.

quoted 28 lines Here are some obnoxiously biased opinions, fools to the fire:

> Here are some obnoxiously biased opinions, fools to the fire: > > 1. My impression of the term "intelligent dance music" is that the music > should appeal to one's mind in addition to one's senses. That is, involve > the consciousness at all levels. Therefore, the _creation_ of the music > generally also involves the consciousness at all levels. Perhaps > "rational" (vs. sensual) or "intellectual" dance music might be better, as > it avoids the value judgement inherent. There is, after all, good dance > music not classified as idm. Such as Latin jazz. > > Nonintelligent dance music simply involves the same pleasure senses that > like ice cream. > > Pop music only involves that part of the mind which stores advertising > jingles for all eternity. > > 2. Another possible axis of the intelligent/nonintelligent dance music > divide, which breaks things down a bit differently, is the real/kitsch > factor. Intelligent music is then defined as that which expresses > something real and authentic (difficult terms in themselves to define), > while nonintelligent is comprised of rather simplistic cliches. > > > Zenon M. Feszczak > Philosopher ex nihilo > > >

(*) Fresh and Full of Life Brian Tang NYC http://silly.com/~tang

quoted 8 lines Ben Coffer said once upon a time:

> Ben Coffer said once upon a time: > > > >So the Chemical Brothers are the guys who just collect a lot of samples > >together...trigger them in a certain sequence and get paid packets, > >correct? > > Its an old argument. >

So is the existence of God, yet we still argue about that...what's your point? Its discussion. its good, its why i'm on the list!(IMO) Ali "It means we'll manage I'll master your language And in the meantime I'll create my own" (Tricky)

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 alalan@po-box.mcgill.ca wrote:

quoted 10 lines Ben Coffer said once upon a time:

> > Ben Coffer said once upon a time: > > > > > >So the Chemical Brothers are the guys who just collect a lot of samples > > >together...trigger them in a certain sequence and get paid packets, > > >correct? > > > > Its an old argument. > > > So is the existence of God, yet we still argue about that...what's > your point? Its discussion. its good, its why i'm on the list!(IMO)

Yes, but this list is supposed to be about intelligent dance music, not stoopid rock'n roll music... Che

quoted 2 lines Yes, but this list is supposed to be about intelligent dance music, not

> Yes, but this list is supposed to be about intelligent dance music, not > stoopid rock'n roll music...

Thanks for clearing that up. Who decides what is IDM? I hear alot of people dissing the Chemical Brothers, because they are popular now. I think many of you liked them when they first came out, but aren't as impressed with them now. They did have some good songs, why not give them SOME credit. I was definitely disappointed with Setting Sun and the new CD doesn't really grab me, because it doesn't explore new terrain. I am not going to start dissing Brian Eno or Aphex Twin because I was disappointed with their last albums. I can appreciate what they did that was great (for its time). If you never liked the Chemical Brothers fine. I just see a lot of fickle of trainspotters, that will rave about an artist one moment and change their tune the next.

Has anyone else listened to the new brian eno "the drop"? I have, and I haven't quite formulated a full opinion yet, but it doesn't seem to explore too much new territory and is a little disappointing (but the music is good). --brett On Thu, 17 July 1997, at 03:46:22, Vapre wrote:

quoted 5 lines SOME credit. I was definitely disappointed with Setting Sun and the new CD

> SOME credit. I was definitely disappointed with Setting Sun and the new CD > doesn't really grab me, because it doesn't explore new terrain. I am not > going to start dissing Brian Eno or Aphex Twin because I was disappointed > with their last albums. I can appreciate what they did that was great (for > its time).

Che wrote:

quoted 8 lines So the Chemical Brothers are the guys who just collect a lot of

> > > >So the Chemical Brothers are the guys who just collect a lot of > samples > > > >together...trigger them in a certain sequence and get paid > packets, > Yes, but this list is supposed to be about intelligent dance music, > not > stoopid rock'n roll music... >

Does IDM stand for ignorant dumb moron?

quoted 2 lines Thanks for clearing that up. Who decides what is IDM? I hear alot of

> Thanks for clearing that up. Who decides what is IDM? I hear alot of > people dissing the Chemical Brothers, because they are popular now.

Well, my own bias against ChemBros (& Prodigy) is not because of their "popularity" but because they're merely treading the same path that other people have already done better than them (eg. MBM, J Saul Kane, Weatherall, all old skool hip-hoppers etc.) and not really adding anything too new or original to that. Basically the same phenomenon continues than in the history of all popular music: the original black expression (jazz, R&B, rock'n'roll) is not good enough for the white mass audiences, so you need a white artist to do the same thing, and (in many cases) water it down ("Pat-Boone-ize it") before it's mass-marketable... transmission from the pHinnWeb Bunker over, ekku aka nemo the maintainer of pHinnWeb - the old skool, the nu skool and the pHuture skool of Finnish electronic music trerra@uta.fi | http://www.uta.fi/~trerra | http://www.sci.fi/~phinnweb "i'm only here for the dollar bill and i like it somehow sugardaddy, don't let me down"

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Brett McCormick <brett@chicken.org> writes:

quoted 8 lines Has anyone else listened to the new brian eno "the drop"? I have, and

> >Has anyone else listened to the new brian eno "the drop"? I have, and >I haven't quite formulated a full opinion yet, but it doesn't seem to >explore too much new territory and is a little disappointing (but the >music is good). > >--brett >

yes, quite a few times...no he does not explore "new territory", but does he really have to? hes building and expanding on themes and melodies that youve all heard before in various encarnations...from low key semi beaty stuff a-la-"discreet music" to beautiful flowing ambient a-la "apollo" to abstract piano noodlings...its not the great march march forward, but it firmly entrenches him as one of the better (best?) providers of satisfying music...im not disappointed at all... tom w sp: drexciya - the quest (disc 2)

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Thanks Peter. Peter Becker wrote:

quoted 5 lines "it doesn't matter"

> "it doesn't matter" > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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