IDM Mailing Archive

I prefer to use a time moniker instead.

quoted 22 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Sherburne [SMTP:philip@Ask.com] > Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 9:40 AM > To: 'idm@hyperreal.org' > Subject: (idm) re: exp. time sigs > > my problem with 3/4: > it never fails to remind me of waltzes. > > i hate waltzes. > > 6/8, now: there's a time signature i'm ok with. > > > >Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:03:09 +0100 > >From: martin <martin.wood@advent-comm.co.uk> > >Subject: Re: (idm) experimental time signatures > > >i think that 3/4 is a criminally underused time signature in modern > >(electronic) music, or using 8th note triplets in either 3/4 or 4/4 > >i feel it has a kind of in built-groove which is sadly lacking in a > >lot of electronic stuff...its not too experimental..but wtf...

In a message dated 7/9/99 12:39:02 PM EDT, philip@Ask.com writes:

quoted 2 lines my problem with 3/4:

> my problem with 3/4: > it never fails to remind me of waltzes.

quoted 1 line i hate waltzes.

>i hate waltzes.

there's very little "true" 3/4 outside of Classical music. most of the 3/4/waltz-time that you hear in pop or dance is really 6/12. if you listen, the phrasing isn't classic waltz (ONE-two-three; ONE-two-three). it's more like: ONE-two-three-four-five-six-SEVEN-eight-nine-ten-eleven-twelve. there's a big difference. even the few waltzy pieces that surface (like some early Cocteau Twins numbers or Chapterhouse's "Then We'll Rise") are really in 6/12. i'd challenge anyone to come up with an example of 'new' music in true 3/4. mr. e. np: people like us - hate people like us (soleilmoon)

quoted 1 line there's very little "true" 3/4 outside of Classical music.

> there's very little "true" 3/4 outside of Classical music.

Don't have much knowledge of (or use for) time signatures, but I always thought it kinda cool that many music instructors have used "Friends" by the Beach Boys to teach the waltz -- dunno if it's true 3/4 though.

quoted 1 line Silver Apples is available with another album...

>Silver Apples is available with another album...

Aside from the pioneering angles of his work, Subotnick has always seemed a bit too academic to me. I can respect his work, but I can't really enjoy it... It's not strictly synthesizer music, but I'd recommend Tod Dockstader, a tape manipulator from the early '60s who produced the most proto-IDM-sounding music I've heard (minus the beats), some of which was used in "Fellini Satyricon". Check out "Apocalypse" or "Quatermass" on Starkland, both of which were easily available until just recently... (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/x.dll?UID=1:10:50|PM&p=amg&sql=B5932) .John.

quoted 4 lines my problem with 3/4:

> my problem with 3/4: > it never fails to remind me of waltzes. > i hate waltzes. > 6/8, now: there's a time signature i'm ok with.

call me ignorant, but without resorting to heavy musical theory, what exactly is the difference between 3/4 & 6/8? mathematically they're the same exact thing. -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

Well, it's been a long time since i actually studied music theory, but my sense is that 3/4 has a heavy "ONE-two-three, ONE-two-three" feel (hence the waltz connotation) whereas 6/8 is often more like 2/4 divided into triplets. Heavy downbeat on one and two. I realize, of course, I'm just showing my four-to-the-floor bias here. :)

quoted 19 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: david turgeon [SMTP:eerie@mnemonic.net] > Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 11:30 AM > To: Philip Sherburne > Cc: 'idm@hyperreal.org' > Subject: Re: (idm) re: exp. time sigs > > > > my problem with 3/4: > > it never fails to remind me of waltzes. > > i hate waltzes. > > 6/8, now: there's a time signature i'm ok with. > > call me ignorant, but without resorting to heavy musical theory, what > exactly is the difference between 3/4 & 6/8? mathematically they're the > same exact thing. > > -- > david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

In a message dated 7/9/99 12:30:57 PM Mountain Daylight Time, eerie@mnemonic.net writes:

quoted 8 lines my problem with 3/4:

> > my problem with 3/4: > > it never fails to remind me of waltzes. > > i hate waltzes. > > 6/8, now: there's a time signature i'm ok with. > > call me ignorant, but without resorting to heavy musical theory, what > exactly is the difference between 3/4 & 6/8? mathematically they're the > same exact thing.

In music there is something known as phrasing. When you play music, say for example on a piano, you naturally put a little bit of emphasis on the first note of each measure. When writing a song the composer must determine using his own judgment what time sig a song must be written in. If he hears 6 8th notes hitting.. meaning that he hears a new measure restarting after every 6 8th notes, then the song would be written in 6/8. Meaning he hears an emphasis put on the first note of the measure,.. the phrases of the piece of music are structured accordingly to this pattern. Yeah, I'm not very good with words and I don't much care, I aints done much a' that readin stuff like y'all have. -=Aaron

In a message dated 7/9/99 12:45:35 PM Mountain Daylight Time, philip@Ask.com writes:

quoted 2 lines Well, it's been a long time since i actually studied music theory, but my

> Well, it's been a long time since i actually studied music theory, but my > sense is that 3/4 has a heavy "ONE-two-three, ONE-two-three" feel (hence

the

quoted 1 line waltz connotation) whereas 6/8 is often more like 2/4 divided into

> waltz connotation) whereas 6/8 is often more like 2/4 divided into

triplets.

quoted 1 line Heavy downbeat on one and two.

> Heavy downbeat on one and two.

exactly.. it's the difference between ONE-two-three, ONE-two-three and ONE-two-three-four-five-six-seven-eight, ONE-two-three-four-five-six-seven-eight -=Aaron

quoted 6 lines most of the 3/4/waltz-time that you hear in pop or dance is really 6/12.

>most of the 3/4/waltz-time that you hear in pop or dance is really 6/12. >if you listen, the phrasing isn't classic waltz (ONE-two-three; >ONE-two-three). >it's more like: >ONE-two-three-four-five-six-SEVEN-eight-nine-ten-eleven-twelve. >

the time signature 6/12 does not exist! The bottom number is always a multiple of two (or sometimes '1'). but it sounds like you're describing 6/8...

quoted 7 lines there's a big difference.

>there's a big difference. > >even the few waltzy pieces that surface (like some early Cocteau Twins >numbers or Chapterhouse's "Then We'll Rise") are really in 6/12. > >i'd challenge anyone to come up with an example of 'new' music in true 3/4. >

FSOL's 'Far Out Son of Lung' is very clearly in 3/4 (but far from a waltz in tempo & rhytmic feel...) -B ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Salter bsalter@slip.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

quoted 2 lines the time signature 6/12 does not exist!

> > the time signature 6/12 does not exist!

Yes it does- the bottom number simply describes which notes define the beat. in 4/4, the quarter note is the beat, in 6/8 the eighth note gets the beat, and in 6/12 the eighth note triplet gets the beat. The top number is simply the number of beats to the bar. And Ian Simmonds' Last States Of Nature has more 6/8 and 3/4 jazz/trip hop tracks than you can shake a stick at. There's also a track called "March Of Osiris" by Elixir on Language that's drum-n-bass in 3/4. Tom

quoted 9 lines the time signature 6/12 does not exist!

> >> >> the time signature 6/12 does not exist! > >Yes it does- the bottom number simply describes which notes define the >beat. in 4/4, the quarter note is the beat, in 6/8 the eighth note gets >the beat, and in 6/12 the eighth note triplet gets the beat. The top >number is simply the number of beats to the bar. >

apologies to the list for continuing off-topic here, but I have to be a geek for a minute. I've been schooled to the point of insanity in music theory & notation, and read and played hundreds of scores, including stuff in signatures like 7/2 or 5/4+3/16, but I've never seen 6/12, at least in standard practice. Just to make sure I wasn't crazy, i downloaded Finale (a _deep_ notation program) and sure enough it wasn't in there. But 6/12 does sorta make sense intuitively; nothing wrong if someone wants to use it... alright, geek mode off, sorry again, but had to back up my point...

quoted 4 lines And Ian Simmonds' Last States Of Nature has more 6/8 and 3/4 jazz/trip

>And Ian Simmonds' Last States Of Nature has more 6/8 and 3/4 jazz/trip >hop tracks than you can shake a stick at. There's also a track called >"March Of Osiris" by Elixir on Language that's drum-n-bass in 3/4. >

these sound interesting... I'll have to keep an eye out for them. Another track which comes to mind is "Bring Trance Back" from Burger/Ink's "Las Vegas", which begins in 3/4 but then subtly layers this with a standard 4/4 beat in the drums. Gives the track an interesting ambiguity & floating feeling, in a simple way. But speaking of unusual time signatures, i think many idm producers could learn some interesting things from Eastern European / Balkans traditional folk music. The rhythmic patterns in that music are oftentimes truly astonishing and strange... -Brian ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Salter bsalter@slip.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

quoted 9 lines the time signature 6/12 does not exist!

> >> >> the time signature 6/12 does not exist! > >Yes it does- the bottom number simply describes which notes define the >beat. in 4/4, the quarter note is the beat, in 6/8 the eighth note gets >the beat, and in 6/12 the eighth note triplet gets the beat. The top >number is simply the number of beats to the bar. >

apologies to the list for continuing off-topic here, but I have to be a geek for a minute. I've been schooled to the point of insanity in music theory & notation, and read and played hundreds of scores, including stuff in signatures like 7/2 or 5/4+3/16, but I've never seen 6/12, at least in standard practice. Just to make sure I wasn't crazy, i downloaded Finale (a _deep_ notation program) and sure enough it wasn't in there. But 6/12 does sorta make sense intuitively; nothing wrong if someone wants to use it... alright, geek mode off, sorry again, but had to back up my point...

quoted 4 lines And Ian Simmonds' Last States Of Nature has more 6/8 and 3/4 jazz/trip

>And Ian Simmonds' Last States Of Nature has more 6/8 and 3/4 jazz/trip >hop tracks than you can shake a stick at. There's also a track called >"March Of Osiris" by Elixir on Language that's drum-n-bass in 3/4. >

these sound interesting... I'll have to keep an eye out for them. Another track which comes to mind is "Bring Trance Back" from Burger/Ink's "Las Vegas", which begins in 3/4 but then subtly layers this with a standard 4/4 beat in the drums. Gives the track an interesting ambiguity & floating feeling, in a simple way. But speaking of unusual time signatures, i think many idm producers could learn some interesting things from Eastern European / Balkans traditional folk music. The rhythmic patterns in that music are oftentimes truly astonishing and strange... -Brian ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Salter bsalter@slip.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~