IDM Mailing Archive

hi people, I'm interested in the notion of "IDM" itself. What, for instance, differentiates it from alt.techno? How come people like underworld, or orbital never get talked about in here? How come 'drum and bass' gets talked about, when it can also be on the 'stupid' tip?? hiphop?? ragga?? surely, these are intelligent? they can *both* come out of roland boxes too. "Intelligent Techno" was a marketing device/label dreamt up by suits/journo's about 3 (or was it 4) years ago. Sometimes i can find the term insulting. are we saying that classic "techno" as produced by people like derrick may isn't "intelligent"? Similarly, when it was underground (alive) it was called "Jungle", now it's called "drum and bass" and is subliminally under adverts for everything from cars to shampoo. Underground? I don't think there is one anymore. The majors appear to have everything pretty much sewn up. The pirate radio, once crackling with new volatile energies, now just cranks out the same old tunes. Blech? Exactly. Repent, and dig out your irdial records. -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

quoted 2 lines How come people like underworld,

> How come people like underworld, > or orbital never get talked about in here?

Huh? We do, we're just sick of them at the moment (I am anyway). You can only talk about them so much. I'd much rather go on about blue angel records and obscure luke vibert remixes.

quoted 3 lines Sometimes i can find the term insulting. are we

> Sometimes i can find the term insulting. are we > saying that classic "techno" as produced by people > like derrick may isn't "intelligent"?

We've been over all this many times. We all agreed without exception I think that those of detroit certainly did make intellegent (beyond simply "intellegent") music. It's not a real point of debate on the list. The term is more a reaction against the sort of mindless 4 on the floor sameness that dominates most of what is called dance music. See the IDM manifesto for details.

quoted 2 lines hiphop??

> hiphop?? > ragga??

Wrong list. I used to listen to hip-hop until i got sick of the same shit over and over. When everyone started ripping off George Clinton instead of James Brown I figured it was time to move on. Ninjas and the others fill the void quite nicely.

quoted 2 lines Underground?

> Underground? > I don't think there is one anymore.

All I know is I go to the store, I buy the record, I take it home and listen to it. Who gives a rats ass about underground. If a couple thousand people want to buy the same record as me, oh well - happy listening to them. Who cares what anyone else doing? If you like it, you like it. (seriously avoiding writing a paper), gonzi.

Hi Gonzi, > Huh? We do, we're just sick of them ah. ok, thanks. i was just wondering. > The term is more a reaction against the sort of mindless 4 on the > floor sameness that dominates most of what is called dance music. isn't drum and bass the new FOTF? > Wrong list. but...it's intelligent...it's dance...and it's music. I can't help but feel it would liven up conversations in here, if you guys would "open up a little". To be honest, i actually enjoyed the U2 thread, though (obviously) i think they're the biggest pile of old wank going.

quoted 1 line If you like it, you like it.

> If you like it, you like it.

nice one. -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

quoted 1 line isn't drum and bass the new FOTF?

> isn't drum and bass the new FOTF?

Ha! just about. I'm sure when it is we'll all move onto something else. Whatever that is, I'm sure there are some brothers working on it right now.

quoted 3 lines but...it's intelligent...it's dance...and it's music.

> but...it's intelligent...it's dance...and it's music. > I can't help but feel it would liven up conversations > in here, if you guys would "open up a little".

What about salsa? What about 19th century waltzes? They're intelligent and you dance to them, right? You have to draw the line somewhere I reckon. PS I just heard Orbital's version of The Saint and let me tell you, it's fucking awful. Orbital has now officially sold out. This is even worse than U2's mission impossible and that crap they're calling the james bond theme these days. Just thought I'd warn you. Fresh.

Hi Mark,

quoted 2 lines As far as commercials with DnB, how about Biosphere, Aphex,

> As far as commercials with DnB, how about Biosphere, Aphex, > Chem Bros, and many others making commercial appearances.

suckers of the corporate cock!

quoted 1 line Don't slag off a genre because people use it for ads.

> Don't slag off a genre because people use it for ads.

what? advertisements SUCK! If the product was *any* good, they wouldn't need an advert to sell it to you in the first place. Jeez.. -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

Black Dog Droid wrote:

quoted 14 lines Hi Mark,

> > Hi Mark, > > > As far as commercials with DnB, how about Biosphere, Aphex, > > Chem Bros, and many others making commercial appearances. > > suckers of the corporate cock! > > > Don't slag off a genre because people use it for ads. > > what? > advertisements SUCK! > If the product was *any* good, they wouldn't need > an advert to sell it to you in the first place.

Advertisments are more honost than film, television or music. They are a refined art brut movement that is far more significant and complex in social impact than film is today and they are more interesting to watch. The importance of commercials or advertisments has little to do with product being advertised. Product and capitol gain is only a commission to attempt to subvert the viewers awareness/conciousness through a series of highly compact yet minimaly packaged distractions and information. The best commercials contain no information at all. Throbbing Gristle, PTV and Warhol are obsolete. This is threatening to most artists because commercialism evolves more rapidly than art and it threatens to absorb the artists mosts precious work, wrap it up in plasticity and perfect it in an environment of simulacra. Artists should learn to exist within a commercial environment and exploit the benefits. It is faster than art. It is indistinguishable from good art. (hey BDD, no dis intended to your beleifs or recent troubles, just stating my opinion)

Hi Blipvert: > Artists should learn to exist within a commercial > environment and exploit the benefits. well, that's a very dangerous game. you could easily lose your soul in such a situation. Obviously artists need some support to bring their material to a wider audience than they themselves can manage, but that usually involves making some sort of compromise somewhere along the line. > just stating my opinion) 'scool. -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

quoted 5 lines what?

> > what? > advertisements SUCK! > If the product was *any* good, they wouldn't need > an advert to sell it to you in the first place.

I only watch the tv for the ads. I'd rather be sold goods than be sold lifestyle and sociological stereotyping via tv shows. At least the ads are fairly straight forward in their politics. As to good stuff not needing advertising....that's indefensible as an argument. Charlie

On 18-Mar-97, Britton James scribbled something about Re: (idm) Spice Girls:

quoted 4 lines I only watch the tv for the ads. I'd rather be sold goods than be sold

>I only watch the tv for the ads. I'd rather be sold goods than be sold >lifestyle and sociological stereotyping via tv shows. At least the ads >are fairly straight forward in their politics. As to good stuff not >needing advertising....that's indefensible as an argument.

not that we need another non-IDM thread to go on and on for a lifetime, but I have to say that I think adverts are natural order of things.. without adverts no one would know about anything.. word of mouth.. bah word of mouth, the person who told whoever told you probably was that the person who told them or however down the line it is, they found it out from an advertisement of some kind. -- __ __\ \ Aurafix aka Hillie / PHD ^ DAMONES / /_\ \ http://www.clark.net/pub/buh/index.html \_____/ >> buh@clark.net >> < > .. >> .<>> >> > , m7= Do re mi fa so la ti .. Oh let's see if we can make it easier..

quoted 3 lines Advertisments are more honost than film, television or music. They are a

> Advertisments are more honost than film, television or music. They are a > refined art brut movement that is far more significant and complex in > social impact than film is today...

Hmmm....you think a Cheerio's commercial is more significant and complex in social impact than Schindler's List? JFK? Natural Born Killers? I think the problem is you're seeing the wrong films. gonzi.

On Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:04:21 +0000 (GMT) zoot@sparta.dogsquad.com (Black Dog Droid) writes:

quoted 3 lines hi people,

>hi people, > >I'm interested in the notion of "IDM" itself.

i wouldnt knock myself out on this... ur not gonna get any kind of rationality from this list...lets face it...people pretty much post/discuss whatever their fancy may be...i could easily make the assertion that tangerine dream (just to use an example) is "idm", back it up with some half-baked "facts" and let loose...who gives a rats ass about any flames i may get? the moniker is used, i believe, to categorize music, such as urs, into something that either makes it comprehensible for people, or, to set them apart from other people....this definitional problem has been hashed out to death on this list, and u know what: its all bullshit! let people talk about what they want, sometimes u find something of interest....

quoted 3 lines Underground?

> >Underground? >I don't think there is one anymore.

i dont think there ever was one...

quoted 4 lines The majors appear to have everything pretty much

>The majors appear to have everything pretty much >sewn up. The pirate radio, once crackling with new >volatile energies, now just cranks out the same old >tunes.

there never was pirate radio in america...in fact, the radio sucks here...

quoted 3 lines Blech?

>Blech? >Exactly. >

yup... regards, tom w np: soundz of the asian underground

quoted 9 lines + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . *

> + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * > . > . * (. .) + | | . * . * + > ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + >. > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | >http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ > * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com >

Gonzi (Fresh) wrote:

quoted 7 lines Advertisments are more honost than film, television or music. They are a

> > > Advertisments are more honost than film, television or music. They are a > > refined art brut movement that is far more significant and complex in > > social impact than film is today... > > Hmmm....you think a Cheerio's commercial is more significant and complex > in social impact than Schindler's List? JFK? Natural Born Killers?

That is not exactly what I meant. But, since you put it that way, yes.

quoted 10 lines Advertisments are more honost than film, television or music. They are a

> >> Advertisments are more honost than film, television or music. They are a >> refined art brut movement that is far more significant and complex in >> social impact than film is today... > >Hmmm....you think a Cheerio's commercial is more significant and complex >in social impact than Schindler's List? JFK? Natural Born Killers? I >think the problem is you're seeing the wrong films. > >gonzi.

In the end, yes. The Cheerio's commercial will have a more pervasive influence on more people and they will have less defenses against it. Its not so much the individual commercial as the current intensity of all commercials surrounding us. G., remember its not just what goes into the front of the brain, it all seeps in the back too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - YOU DON'T HAVE TO FUCK PEOPLE OVER TO SURVIVE - Chris Sattinger new records : Headspace / Synewave/ Subvoice NEW RELEASES - DISCOGRAPHY - INFO http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m082/satti002/ChrisSattinger.html US Techno House Business Resource : http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m082/satti002/DanceLabel.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

quoted 5 lines ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > - YOU DON'T HAVE TO FUCK PEOPLE OVER TO SURVIVE - > > Chris Sattinger > new records : Headspace / Synewave/ Subvoice

No, but it sure makes the time go by quicker, and makes life a helluva lot more interesting! Not that I do it myself, mind you... just4laughs! Derek http://www.ccd.cccoes.edu/~djordan (new project "Emanations" information now available at my website)

Maybe not cheerios, but there are certainly many ads on TV which far surpass the three films you mention in terms of cinematic creativity. NBK, in fact, seems to borrow heavily from TV commercials and MTV for its cinematic style. Big-screen movies are definately not the place where innovation is occurring in the art of the moving picture. Commercials and music videos are more like it. Or even TV shows like NYPD blue which form the cinematic foundation for Woody Allen's last non-musical and for countless other movies. Back in the 60's and 70s, films were where experimentation occurred, but hardly ever anymore. Few movies come close to being creative, and *definately* not the three you mention (I'm surprised a film stufdent would hold up any of those three movies as examples of "significant" or "complex", but I suppose you picked popular but still kinda arty films to put in comparison to Cheerios). I think of maybe Delicatessen/City of Lost Children or any Peter Greenaway film as being some of the very very few places where films offer you something TV hasn't already done. TV hasn't even *copied* that stuff yet! Still, 99% of commercials are derivative trendy crap, or just plain crap (not even trendy). Its the other 1% we need to keep our eyes on. -Chris BTW, I heard Francis Ford Coppola is directing a Mini Series version of the Odyssey! Yikes! TV wins, Studios lose!

quoted 19 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: idm-owner@hyperreal.com [SMTP:idm-owner@hyperreal.com] On Behalf > Of Gonzi (Fresh) > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 1997 1:28 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.com > Subject: Re: (idm) Spice Girls > > > Advertisments are more honost than film, television or music. They > are a > > refined art brut movement that is far more significant and complex > in > > social impact than film is today... > > Hmmm....you think a Cheerio's commercial is more significant and > complex > in social impact than Schindler's List? JFK? Natural Born Killers? I > think the problem is you're seeing the wrong films. > > gonzi.

quoted 5 lines Few movies come close to being creative, and *definately* not the three

> Few movies come close to being creative, and *definately* not the three > you mention (I'm surprised a film stufdent would hold up any of those > three movies as examples of "significant" or "complex", but I suppose > you picked popular but still kinda arty films to put in comparison to > Cheerios).

The reason I picked those three films is because the issues they raised opened a public dialouge, not because they were the best films. Hardly anyone sees Greenaway films so they don't really have much of an impact on society. I think you're all being much too paranoid with this commercial thing. Popular films invade the culture and become part of our conciousness on a level that NO commercial can match. Take for example a film like Forrest Gump. It's discussed by people on the street, amongst friends, in offices. It's catch phrases are instantly recognizable. It is a best selling book. It had a number one soundtrack. It is on the cover of magazines, discussed in newspaper editorial columns, its joked about by talk show hosts and on variety shows on TV. What 30 second TV commercial can match that level of public recognition and awareness? NONE. And utimately, its impact on society is a thousand times more significant than any advert. And Forrest Gump is one of many.

quoted 3 lines even TV shows like

> even TV shows like > NYPD blue which form the cinematic foundation for Woody Allen's last > non-musical and for countless other movies.

Errr...not so sure about that one. -Gonzi.

Gonzi emotes:

quoted 8 lines Popular films invade the culture and become part of our consciousness on

> Popular films invade the culture and become part of our consciousness on > a level that NO commercial can match. Take for example a film like > Forrest Gump. It's discussed by people on the street, amongst friends, > in offices. Its catch phrases are instantly recognizable. It is a best > selling book. It had a number one soundtrack. It is on the cover of > magazines, discussed in newspaper editorial columns, it's joked about by > talk show hosts and on variety shows on TV. What 30 second TV commercial > can match that level of public recognition and awareness? NONE.

Two words: "Got milk?" (People outside of California are not expected to understand this.) - Greg Who thinks it's funny that Ken Downie started a thread off by talking about the irrelevance of advertisements after releasing and album entitled "Music for Adverts [...]"

quoted 6 lines Take for example a film like Forrest Gump. It's discussed by people on the

> Take for example a film like Forrest Gump. It's discussed by people on the > street, amongst friends, in offices. It's catch phrases are instantly > recognizable. It is a best selling book. It had a number one soundtrack. It > is on the cover of magazines, discussed in newspaper editorial columns, its > joked about by talk show hosts and on variety shows on TV. What 30 second TV > commercial can match that level of public recognition and awareness? NONE.

"Wherrrrre's the beef?" -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists

Where's the beef? Just do it. Two all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese pickles onions on a sesame seed bun. Be like mike. Where do you want to go today? Buuhd....Wiiise....Er. Etc... Besides "Stupid is as stupid does" and "Show me the money", where does film have this effect? Popular films, with rare exceptions, do not sink into the culture's collective mind *at all* any more. Gump was an exception, but why is it that ID4 is all but forgotten now? One of the top grossing films of all time, but who can recite a single line from it? The loudest guy in the theater probably doesn't even remember anything. Most movies make a big splash in the theatres, then they are gone. Poof! I see lots of movies which entertain me but are soon fade out of my mind (ID4). I also see lots of movies which are snoozers throughout, but which I never forget (Solaris). I'll bet all the big time movie directors of the early 21st century will be ex-MTV video and TV commercial directors. David Fincher's already there. -Chris Fahey (Never saw Forrest Gump. Love pop culture. Won't sink that low, though.)

quoted 47 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: idm-owner@hyperreal.com [SMTP:idm-owner@hyperreal.com] On Behalf > Of Gonzi (Fresh) > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 1997 3:56 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.com > Subject: Re: (idm) Spice Girls > > > Few movies come close to being creative, and *definately* not the > three > > you mention (I'm surprised a film stufdent would hold up any of > those > > three movies as examples of "significant" or "complex", but I > suppose > > you picked popular but still kinda arty films to put in comparison > to > > Cheerios). > > The reason I picked those three films is because the issues they > raised > opened a public dialouge, not because they were the best films. Hardly > anyone sees Greenaway films so they don't really have much of an > impact > on society. > > I think you're all being much too paranoid with this commercial thing. > Popular films invade the culture and become part of our conciousness > on > a level that NO commercial can match. Take for example a film like > Forrest Gump. It's discussed by people on the street, amongst friends, > in offices. It's catch phrases are instantly recognizable. It is a > best > selling book. It had a number one soundtrack. It is on the cover of > magazines, discussed in newspaper editorial columns, its joked about > by > talk show hosts and on variety shows on TV. What 30 second TV > commercial > can match that level of public recognition and awareness? NONE. And > utimately, its impact on society is a thousand times more significant > than any advert. And Forrest Gump is one of many. > > > even TV shows like > > NYPD blue which form the cinematic foundation for Woody Allen's last > > non-musical and for countless other movies. > > Errr...not so sure about that one. > > -Gonzi.

quoted 1 line (Never saw Forrest Gump. Love pop culture. Won't sink that low, though.)

> (Never saw Forrest Gump. Love pop culture. Won't sink that low, though.)

And the difference between blindly buying something because it's popular and blindly avoiding something because it's popular is . . . ? -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists ::: OnNow: Ambient House - The Compilation By DFC

quoted 3 lines Popular films, with rare exceptions, do not sink into the culture's

> Popular films, with rare exceptions, do not sink into the culture's > collective mind *at all* any more. Gump was an exception, but why is it > that ID4 is all but forgotten now?

This is getting farther and farther from IDM content so lets such say I respectfuly disagree and think that film still has a greater influence on our collective culture than commercials.

quoted 3 lines The Spirit is a cool old Will Eisner character. Maybe Orbital knew this

> The Spirit is a cool old Will Eisner character. Maybe Orbital knew this > and wanted to take the opportunity. Maybe Orbital can make a bad movie > cool by having good music in it.

Why is everyone so quick to jump to Orbital's defense? Listen to the song first and then tell me what you think. IT IS fucking horrible. If they want to do a musical soundtrack to a decent film, that's another thing. But contributing A song to a a big hollywood action film soundtrack that is obviously trying to cash in big on the next big thing is selling themselves out, plain and simple. -Gonzi.

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Gonzi (Fresh) wrote:

quoted 6 lines Why is everyone so quick to jump to Orbital's defense? Listen to the

> Why is everyone so quick to jump to Orbital's defense? Listen to the > song first and then tell me what you think. IT IS fucking horrible. If > they want to do a musical soundtrack to a decent film, that's another > thing. But contributing A song to a a big hollywood action film > soundtrack that is obviously trying to cash in big on the next big thing > is selling themselves out, plain and simple.

it's obvious that you don't care for orbital...and that's fine. but to say that they have sold out because they have contributed a song to a soundtrack is absurd. i think you have an elite-ism issue that you need to resolve with yourself. peace... prymal ======== Prymal primal@interaccess.com http://www.interaccess.com/primal/ ======== add some spice to your christ...necco wafers!

On Mar 18, 10:13am, Britton James wrote:

quoted 10 lines Subject: Re: (idm) Spice Girls

> Subject: Re: (idm) Spice Girls > > > > what? > > advertisements SUCK! > > If the product was *any* good, they wouldn't need > > an advert to sell it to you in the first place. > > I only watch the tv for the ads. I'd rather be sold goods than be sold > lifestyle and sociological stereotyping via tv shows. At least the ads > are fairly straight forward in their politics.

You reckon? Here's a couple of ads doing the rounds in Sydney at the mo' and then tell me if their politics is straight forward. AD1 for fizzy soft-drink A, advertising the fact that you get more drink in a six-pack, or something: Bottle of drink moving about on a rocky landscape crying out "I'm free! I'm free! I'm free to do this! I'm free to do that!" etc. Then there is a voice over describing the offer. After that there is a shot of the rest of the six-pack and an imperious male voice saying: "Are you quite finished there? Get back in the pack(!)" and the bottle submissively does so. Ok maybe I'm missing the subtle humour or irony, but it does makes me wonder. AD2 for fizzy soft-drink B, a popular drink from the US which is only now beginning to be sold in Australia: Shot of the Statue of Liberty in New York. The statue tears itself from its foundations, walks into the water and there is a shot of it swimming under the water with the torch held in front. Then there is a shot of two guys fishing at the base of a cliff when with a great splash the Statue of Liberty rises out of the water. The two guys then take a refreshing swig of fizzy soft-drink B and the one says to the other: "American?", the other: "Yeah, I could get used to it". After this cue the funky music and the statue goes off to park itself in the middle of Port Jackson next to the Sydney Harbour Bridge and Opera House. What the fuck do you call this!!! Are advertising execs so stupid or is just this an indication of the depths they can sink in their brand of intellectual prostitution. The programmes that surround the adverts are usually no better, being to ads what shit is to flies. I'm not trying to say stop watching television or buying soft-drink (I quite like soft-drink B), but that people (advertisers too) should be a bit more critical. Just because ads are short doesn't mean that they are meaningless or even harmless. Someone else on this list said that ads are just entertainment, not facts. Yes, but they are also _convincing_ among other things. They say things about the society we live in and the society some people aspire to or worse want to create. If you approach them actively, you should be able to tease out all sorts of _facts_, instead of absorbing them passively and being conned. There is no such thing as an invisible conspiracy; they just hope you won't notice. OK, what has this got to do with IDM? A lot in my opinion. When Intelligent dance music was first hyped in Australia all those moons ago with those two Warp compilations, Its selling point, which seems to have been obscured or discarded in the recent American invasion, was that techno had become a medium of (almost covert) communication of thoughts, feelings and ideas without words. Of course one could see how this line would be useful in winning over people in the alternative-rock scene that only knew/know pop music with lyrics, and this would no doubt be true, but the fact remains that this kind of music is very much a means of direct communication from the artist to the listener by means of abstract symbols and the odd well-placed sample/word without recourse to obvious lyrics, as well as being entertaing and sometimes funky (like a lot of ads!). Autechre: "AntiEP" and Richard H Kirk "Agents with false memories" are two examles that spring readily to my mind, which require active participation on the part of the listener to read their message(s) (of course, they're also very satisfying and a lot of fun). It was this concept (true or false, promotional or not) that first fascinated me, and still does, about this kind of music. It opened up in my naive mind the possibilities of composition. It doesn't have to be musical - remember: ads follow the same rules - and you definitely don't have to participate in the received IDM tradition (whatever that really is) to explore it. -- Chris Tourgelis

quoted 11 lines Shot of the Statue of Liberty in New York. The statue tears itself from

> Shot of the Statue of Liberty in New York. The statue tears itself from > its foundations, walks into the water and there is a shot of it swimming > under the water with the torch held in front. Then there is a shot of > two guys fishing at the base of a cliff when with a great splash the > Statue of Liberty rises out of the water. The two guys then take a > refreshing swig of fizzy soft-drink B and the one says to the other: > "American?", the other: "Yeah, I could get used to it". After this cue > the funky music and the statue goes off to park itself in the middle of > Port Jackson next to the Sydney Harbour Bridge and Opera House. > > What the fuck do you call this!!!

Urrr, I call it a vaguely-amusing-sounding advertisement that carries across the idea of a US soft drink "arriving" in Australia by drawing an analogy with a common symbol of the US "arriving" in Australia. Your strong reaction implies that you think it's something else -- something very very bad, maybe bordering on evil. I'd love to know what that is . . . -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists

On Mar 18, 11:47pm, Lazlo Nibble wrote:

quoted 2 lines Subject: Re: (idm) Spice Girls

> Subject: Re: (idm) Spice Girls > > Shot of the Statue of Liberty in New York. The statue tears itself

from

quoted 1 line its foundations, walks into the water and there is a shot of it

> > its foundations, walks into the water and there is a shot of it

swimming

quoted 1 line under the water with the torch held in front. Then there is a shot

> > under the water with the torch held in front. Then there is a shot

of

quoted 4 lines two guys fishing at the base of a cliff when with a great splash the

> > two guys fishing at the base of a cliff when with a great splash the > > Statue of Liberty rises out of the water. The two guys then take a > > refreshing swig of fizzy soft-drink B and the one says to the other: > > "American?", the other: "Yeah, I could get used to it". After this

cue

quoted 1 line the funky music and the statue goes off to park itself in the middle

> > the funky music and the statue goes off to park itself in the middle

of

quoted 5 lines Port Jackson next to the Sydney Harbour Bridge and Opera House.

> > Port Jackson next to the Sydney Harbour Bridge and Opera House. > > > > What the fuck do you call this!!! > > Urrr, I call it a vaguely-amusing-sounding advertisement that carries

across

quoted 1 line the idea of a US soft drink "arriving" in Australia by drawing an

> the idea of a US soft drink "arriving" in Australia by drawing an

analogy with

quoted 1 line a common symbol of the US "arriving" in Australia. Your strong

> a common symbol of the US "arriving" in Australia. Your strong

reaction

quoted 1 line implies that you think it's something else -- something very very bad,

> implies that you think it's something else -- something very very bad,

maybe

quoted 1 line bordering on evil. I'd love to know what that is . . .

> bordering on evil. I'd love to know what that is . . .

Well, yeah, I guess I may have overreacted just a tad, but you really should see it: there's something about the way it's been put together that doesn't quite convince. I guess being an a resident of the US you'd wouldn't notice much the almost absurdly (would be absurd if it weren't true, that is) titled phenomenon of Cultural Imperialism. It probably wouldn't bother you that most tv programmes, most movies and most news material was sourced from the one foreign country, or that that country's military or intelligence organisation has such permanent bases as the spy satelite centre (or whatever it is) at Pine Gap, or even that a foreign businessman owns most of the media and printing presses (and Murdoch is by no means, even by his own admission, an Australian any more)... All this, of course, with the federal government's supine compliance. "Yeah, I could get used to it. Just park the golden arches on top of the harbour bridge. No problem!" I'm not saying that everything that comes from the US is bad (look at techno, look at the internet for example), or that it is a malignant country per se, or even that military ties are not desirable. It's just that you've got to draw the line somewhere. But hey, we did give the rest of the world Paul Hogan, Yahoo Serious (who?), Neighbours and Home and Away, Kylie, that loser on Hard Copy whose name eludes me... stay cool folks, -- Chris Tourgelis

Hi people, The Black Dog spoketh thus....

quoted 1 line I'm interested in the notion of "IDM" itself.

> I'm interested in the notion of "IDM" itself.

I always thought it was a bit strange myself. Lots of what is classed as "IDM" I wouldn't (or couldn't) dance to.

quoted 3 lines What, for instance, differentiates it from

> What, for instance, differentiates it from > alt.techno? How come people like underworld, > or orbital never get talked about in here?

Well, I'm not really interested in Underworld. Dunno why, I think perhaps it's the use of vocals or the fact that they were originally a more "guitar" based pop band. Same goes for Meat Beat Manifesto and groups like that.

quoted 2 lines How come 'drum and bass' gets talked about,

> How come 'drum and bass' gets talked about, > when it can also be on the 'stupid' tip??

I can see a crossover through people like Squarepusher, the Plug alter ego and some of the Aphex HAB and u-Ziq stuff. The edges are blurred a bit. Then there's Bukem and guys like that too.

quoted 5 lines hiphop??

> hiphop?? > ragga?? > > surely, these are intelligent? > they can *both* come out of roland boxes too.

Again, for me, it's the emphesis on the vocal side of things that puts me off.

quoted 3 lines "Intelligent Techno" was a marketing device/label

> "Intelligent Techno" was a marketing device/label > dreamt up by suits/journo's about 3 (or was it 4) > years ago.

Yeah, but they had to find a label to put on all the stuff that was coming out that wasn't pure 4/4/ dance tracks, and wasn't quite Ambient either.

quoted 3 lines Sometimes i can find the term insulting. are we

> Sometimes i can find the term insulting. are we > saying that classic "techno" as produced by people > like derrick may isn't "intelligent"?

Why do we have to exclude it anyway? Coz it's not European or even British? If it's released on Warp or Tresor is that any diffrent to Transmat or Submerge? Is a Plastikman track on Plus 8 not IDM but Fuse is because it's on Warp?

quoted 4 lines Similarly, when it was underground (alive) it was

> Similarly, when it was underground (alive) it was > called "Jungle", now it's called "drum and bass" > and is subliminally under adverts for everything > from cars to shampoo.

Part of society's process of absorbtion m8. Same thing happened with the hippies, punk, etc. etc.

quoted 2 lines Underground?

> Underground? > I don't think there is one anymore.

There is, probably always will be...it's a cycle I guess. What's wrong with "Electronica" anyway? A more universal term that can even include Stockhausen, Krautrock, Industrial, Ambient and the output from labels like Touch, Staalplat etc. bye, Eric.

Eric Gordon wrote:

quoted 6 lines Hi people,

> > Hi people, > > The Black Dog spoketh thus.... > > > I'm interested in the notion of "IDM" itself.

quoted 8 lines hiphop??

> > hiphop?? > > ragga?? > > > > surely, these are intelligent? > > they can *both* come out of roland boxes too. > > Again, for me, it's the emphesis on the vocal side of things that puts me > off.

quoted 3 lines What's wrong with "Electronica" anyway? A more universal term that can even

> What's wrong with "Electronica" anyway? A more universal term that can even > include Stockhausen, Krautrock, Industrial, Ambient and the output from > labels like Touch, Staalplat etc.

But, bon't the vocals in industrial and krautrock put you of?

HiYa,

quoted 1 line Eric Gordon wrote:

> Eric Gordon wrote:

quoted 2 lines hiphop??

> > > hiphop?? > > > ragga??

quoted 1 line Again, for me, it's the emphesis on the vocal side of things that puts

> > Again, for me, it's the emphesis on the vocal side of things that puts

me

quoted 1 line off.

> > off.

quoted 1 line What's wrong with "Electronica" anyway? A more universal term that can

> > What's wrong with "Electronica" anyway? A more universal term that can

even

quoted 2 lines include Stockhausen, Krautrock, Industrial, Ambient and the output from

> > include Stockhausen, Krautrock, Industrial, Ambient and the output from > > labels like Touch, Staalplat etc.

quoted 1 line But, bon't the vocals in industrial and krautrock put you of?

> But, bon't the vocals in industrial and krautrock put you of?

Depends on what it is. Eary Tang stuff, most Kraftwerk and a lot of Cluster etc. doesn't have much in the may of vocals. As for the industrial stuff, Gen P.'s contribution isn't really singing and the same goes for most of the Cabs' music. I just mean that the emphesis isn't on the vocals in most of the electronic music I like. I guess the connection is that they're all rhythm based...an element of funk perhaps??? bye, Eric.

quoted 5 lines What's wrong with "Electronica" anyway? A more universal term that can even

> > What's wrong with "Electronica" anyway? A more universal term that can even > > include Stockhausen, Krautrock, Industrial, Ambient and the output from > > labels like Touch, Staalplat etc. > > But, bon't the vocals in industrial and krautrock put you of?

Not me :) kF