IDM Mailing Archive

2000-06-19 16:48Jason J. Tarfolks had typed:: > "Art" is NOT a high-falootin' word and it's not a judgemental word, it

From:: Jason J. Tar <tarjason@pilot.msu.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:48:21 -0400
Subject:: [idm] Definitions.

folks had typed::

quoted 3 lines "Art" is NOT a high-falootin' word and it's not a judgemental word, it

> "Art" is NOT a high-falootin' word and it's not a judgemental word, it's >just a normal everyday dictionary word that includes music, painting, >sculpture, writing, design, acting, etc, etc.

Actually, if you take the dictionary definition of "Art" it means any skill or craft. IE--the chap working on the assembly line is an artist at what he does. ...and since you won't see the common working man at the art museum, I suppose you can take that dictionary definition and throw it in the trash. Historically, "art" and its appreciation is more of a leisurely pursuit saved for the bourgeois at the expense of the proletariat. ...and thus a bunch of hi-brow nonsense that I would rather not be associated with.

quoted 3 lines You make music, right? Do you think that you're not an artist? It's

>You make music, right? Do you think that you're not an artist? It's >admirable to try to be modest about what you're doing, but art is not a bad >word, it's just a regular word.

You think "art" is a regular word? Just look at the chaps and gals you see at "institutes of art". It is enough to note that they are called "institutes" to know that the word has more of a "high-falootin'" connotation to it then simply a down to earth term. Leave "art" to the "artists", I'm just a common chap. And once you begin seeing musical creations as the work of common chaps, you'll begin to lose the fanboy trappings that your original post suffered from. (The "I'm so disenchanted with..." blabberings.)

quoted 5 lines I have not done telephone interviews with hundreds of sampling artists to

>I have not done telephone interviews with hundreds of sampling artists to >derive my conclusions, but my informed guess is that the situation you >describe NEVER happens. Usually the artist will hear the sample first, >become inspired, and use it in a track in some new, creative way (or >sometimes in a predictable, shallow way).

Well, in that case...your opinion would be UNinformed, now wouldn't it? Many talented sampling folks collect a library of sounds and samples that they then use in a manner that suits there needs. Especially in such cases whereas entire compositions are constructed using samples.... (Thinking in particular of Daniel Vahnke's work)

quoted 4 lines For example, Negativland took a ten minute conversation between Ted Koppel

>For example, Negativland took a ten minute conversation between Ted Koppel >and some unnamed Nightline guest and chopped it to bits to create a >beautiful track whose lyrics are both hilarious and compelling. Of course >they didn't write the lyrics first.

If you've ever heard Bomb20, whom I referred to in the original statement, you can tell that the sentences are constructed from a variety of sources not from a single interview. Just because you can cite one example where someone sampled first and composed second, doesn't mean it never happens in the reverse order...

quoted 3 lines God, I can't beleive I'm defending myself from attacks claiming that I

>God, I can't beleive I'm defending myself from attacks claiming that I >don't 'get' >sampling. What the fuck has happened to this list?

Well, when you start complaining about a track because it uses a sample, then you come across as someone who is close minded to sampling. Your comments above seem to show that your knowledge of sampling is a bit lacking at that....

quoted 6 lines ever impressed by Bomb20 who says things using the voices of many. It'd be

> >ever impressed by Bomb20 who says things using the voices of many. It'd be > >a hundred times easier for him to just speak it, but to pull unique > >sentences out of samples takes time and a lot of searching. > >actually, i personally think it's more difficult to create unique >words you haven't heard before.

Deleting some unrelated commentary on the creation of poetry. This sentence is flawed in that there is no such thing as "unique words". Unless you mean jibberish. I'm assuming you mean to put words together in a "unique" string, which is what Bomb20 does as he samples words not sentences.... --- Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar W. W. J. D? (What would Jason Do?) ICQ@13792120 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-20 15:52Chris Fahey> Actually, if you take the dictionary definition of "Art" it > means any skill or craft.

From:: Chris Fahey <chris.fahey@raremedium.com>
To:: 'Jason J. Tar' <tarjason@pilot.msu.edu>, IDM (E-mail) <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:52:03 -0400
Subject:: RE: [idm] Definitions.

quoted 2 lines Actually, if you take the dictionary definition of "Art" it

> Actually, if you take the dictionary definition of "Art" it > means any skill or craft.

Sounds fine to me. You got something against having a skill or craft?

quoted 6 lines IE--the chap working on the assembly line is an

> IE--the chap working on the assembly line is an > artist at what > he does. ...and since you won't see the common working man > at the art > museum, I suppose you can take that dictionary definition and > throw it in the trash.

Or you could take that dictionary definition and use it to replace whatever incorrect definition is currently occupying space in your cerebrum. Alternately you could (being the staunch advocate for the "common chap" that you are) begin to think of the labors of the working man or woman as being worthy of the same respect given to artists. You might also choose to show a tiny bit respect for those of us who are both artists and working people and not paint a picture of the world in which art is inaccessible to us because we are "common". You might even go so far as to see art-making as a legitimate career for an honest working person.

quoted 6 lines Historically, "art" and its appreciation is more

> Historically, "art" and its appreciation is more > of a leisurely > pursuit saved for the bourgeois at the expense of the > proletariat. ...and > thus a bunch of hi-brow nonsense that I would rather not be > associated with.

Agreed. So let's see... you make music, but it's not "art", right? So therefore the music that you do on your expensive musical equipment doesn't count as a "leisurely pursuit saved for the bourgeois," is that what you're trying to say? So, you are a proletarian music maker, is that it? You work in the 808 factory making beats to feed the working people?

quoted 10 lines You make music, right? Do you think that you're not an artist? It's

> >You make music, right? Do you think that you're not an artist? It's > >admirable to try to be modest about what you're doing, but > art is not a bad > >word, it's just a regular word. > > You think "art" is a regular word? Just look at the chaps > and gals you see > at "institutes of art". It is enough to note that they are called > "institutes" to know that the word has more of a "high-falootin'" > connotation to it then simply a down to earth term.

Yes, except that for every one artist in the "institutes" there are ten thousand who are not. Are they not artists because the institutions do not embrace them? Attitudes like yours only serve to perpetuate the myth that art is a pursuit only for the rich. You are correct to put it on the same level as any other kind of labor, but that does not mean that art is not valuable. Rather, it means that all labor is valuable. By your logic, since only the privileged are able to eat every day then eating itself must be a vile luxury of the rich.

quoted 6 lines once you begin

> once you begin > seeing musical creations as the work of common chaps, you'll > begin to lose > the fanboy trappings that your original post suffered from. > (The "I'm so > disenchanted with..." blabberings.)

It's highly aggravating, childish, and rude of you to call my posts "blabberings", especially since I never used that silly word "disenchanted." And if you ask anybody who knows me on this list I am hardly a "fanboy". Hell, you don't even know if I'm even a boy!!

quoted 6 lines I have not done telephone interviews with hundreds of

> >I have not done telephone interviews with hundreds of > sampling artists to > >derive my conclusions, but my informed guess is ... > > Well, in that case...your opinion would be UNinformed, now > wouldn't it?

Perhaps you can share the results of YOUR scientifically conducted poll of sampling musicians to the rest of the list? Or you could admit that you're talking as much out of your ass, er, I mean 'personal experience', as I just admitted I am.

quoted 4 lines you come across as someone who is close minded to

> you come across as someone who is close minded to > sampling. Your > comments above seem to show that your knowledge of sampling is a bit > lacking at that....

You are such a fucking prick, you know that? I was playing with cheap toy casio samplers before you were born and listening to Public Enemy cassettes I taped from my friends when you were still playing with your bourgeois Optimus Prime action figure in the sandbox. Get off of whatever high horse you are on and assume that the people you are having email debates with are not idiots and might actually have something worthwhile to say.

quoted 6 lines actually, i personally think it's more difficult to create unique

> >actually, i personally think it's more difficult to create unique > >words you haven't heard before. > > Deleting some unrelated commentary on the creation of poetry. This > sentence is flawed in that there is no such thing as "unique > words".

Don't quote two different people in the same email without indicating who said what, it's basic email etiquette. I never said that stuff. - Cf --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

[idm] Definitions.