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(idm) another oneliner

19 messages · 12 participants · spans 5 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 2 subjects: (idm) another oneliner · (idm) meta-modern
1999-08-05 17:45david turgeon (idm) another oneliner
└─ 1999-08-10 22:31Mark Stevens Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-05 17:46Matthew Allen RE: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-05 17:48Tom Millar Re: (idm) another oneliner
└─ 1999-08-05 18:12Zenon M. Feszczak Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-05 17:55david turgeon Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-05 17:56david turgeon Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-05 17:58Sharon Maher Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-05 18:04Matthew Allen RE: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-05 18:17david turgeon Re: (idm) another oneliner
└─ 1999-08-05 19:34ChairCrusher (idm) meta-modern
1999-08-05 20:20Mxyzptlk Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-05 23:22Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-06 00:35Tom Millar Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-06 00:38m Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-06 02:09m Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-06 03:31Tom Millar Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-06 06:17daht Re: (idm) another oneliner
1999-08-06 17:53Chad Mossholder RE: (idm) another oneliner
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1999-08-05 17:45david turgeonwhat comes after postmodernism? -- david
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david turgeon
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Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:45:45 -0400
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(idm) another oneliner
permalink · <37A9CDC9.2AE53742@evolutiontech.com>
what comes after postmodernism? -- david
1999-08-10 22:31Mark StevensHere's a reply to the message "(idm) another oneliner" you wrote on Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:45
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Mark Stevens
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
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(idm) another oneliner
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Here's a reply to the message "(idm) another oneliner" you wrote on Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:45:45 -0400:
quoted 1 line what comes after postmodernism?>what comes after postmodernism?
Dinner. -- Mark Stevens http://www.headspin.clara.net/
1999-08-05 17:46Matthew Allenmeta-modernism -----Original Message----- From: david turgeon [mailto:david@evolutiontech.
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Matthew Allen
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'david turgeon' ,
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Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:46:37 -0700
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RE: (idm) another oneliner
permalink · <A4616F893E30D11199CD0000C0618AE5FB8BF6@mailserver.lith.com>
meta-modernism -----Original Message----- From: david turgeon [mailto:david@evolutiontech.com] Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 10:46 AM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: (idm) another oneliner what comes after postmodernism? -- david
1999-08-05 17:48Tom Millardavid turgeon wrote: > > what comes after postmodernism? Answers.
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Tom Millar
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david turgeon
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Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:48:05 -0400
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
permalink · <37A9CE41.BFDF050D@unix.cas.utk.edu>
david turgeon wrote:
quoted 2 lines what comes after postmodernism?> > what comes after postmodernism?
Answers.
1999-08-05 18:12Zenon M. Feszczak> > > what comes after postmodernism? > Suicide? 3
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Zenon M. Feszczak
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Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:12:00 -0400
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
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quoted 3 lines what comes after postmodernism?> > > what comes after postmodernism? >
Suicide? 3
1999-08-05 17:55david turgeon> > what comes after postmodernism? > Answers. didn't postmodernism discover that answers
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david turgeon
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Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:55:45 -0400
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
permalink · <37A9D021.B323D938@evolutiontech.com>
quoted 2 lines what comes after postmodernism?> > what comes after postmodernism? > Answers.
didn't postmodernism discover that answers were unreachable? or is postpostmodernism to cluster information into rigid templates which contain a part of 'the whole' but never it all, so that answers can be given in a certain context which is approximated from reality? my question was related to music mostly though (otherwise i'd have posted this to a philosophy list). what comes after the postmodern, i.e. hybrid, derivative, self-reflecting music we are increasingly witnessing from autechre to the wildest mego prankster or the loudest japanese noise freak? where is postmodernism going? 'up its own butt' might be a plausible answer, but what then? what happens after now? should we build shelters yet? -- david
1999-08-05 17:56david turgeon> meta-modernism i can sort of see where you're getting at, but just to make sure, how do
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david turgeon
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Matthew Allen
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Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:56:45 -0400
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
permalink · <37A9D05D.B89188B3@evolutiontech.com>
quoted 1 line meta-modernism> meta-modernism
i can sort of see where you're getting at, but just to make sure, how do you define that? -- david
1999-08-05 17:58Sharon Maher> > what comes after postmodernism? This reminds me of something an old boss of mine wrote
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Sharon Maher
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Thu, 05 Aug 1999 10:58:14 -0700
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
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quoted 1 line what comes after postmodernism?> > what comes after postmodernism?
This reminds me of something an old boss of mine wrote about his record label. He said that they would be "evolving and expanding their sound into a world beyond the future." Er... "beyond" the future? What is beyond the future? More future? Any ideas?
1999-08-05 18:04Matthew AllenAs a smart ass remark... Actually the point is interesting. If the tenant of Post-modernis
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Matthew Allen
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'david turgeon'
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Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:04:54 -0700
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RE: (idm) another oneliner
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As a smart ass remark... Actually the point is interesting. If the tenant of Post-modernism is, that at its very core, a movement that isnt a movement. An idea where any thing, any idea, is valid (be it baroque architecture with killer robots instead of finely crafted saints in the wood walls, or big toilets made out of plastic and filled with styrofoam). I Sorta see the pendulum swinging back really quite far the other way. To some sort of uber-modernism. Something were rules are created and very stricly adhered to. Like if your doing an Electro track you have to use very specific sounds and a very recognizable beat. Or we'll all just keep doing whatever the hell we so desire and postmodernism will never die. m. -----Original Message----- From: david turgeon [mailto:david@evolutiontech.com] Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 10:57 AM To: Matthew Allen Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (idm) another oneliner
quoted 1 line meta-modernism> meta-modernism
i can sort of see where you're getting at, but just to make sure, how do you define that? -- david
1999-08-05 18:17david turgeon> Actually the point is interesting. If the tenant of Post-modernism is, that > at its ver
From:
david turgeon
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Matthew Allen
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Date:
Thu, 05 Aug 1999 14:17:13 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) another oneliner
permalink · <37A9D529.880C578A@evolutiontech.com>
quoted 5 lines Actually the point is interesting. If the tenant of Post-modernism is, that> Actually the point is interesting. If the tenant of Post-modernism is, that > at its very core, a movement that isnt a movement. An idea where any thing, > any idea, is valid (be it baroque architecture with killer robots instead of > finely crafted saints in the wood walls, or big toilets made out of plastic > and filled with styrofoam).
validity is one thing, but will people use them? like them? i personally like my toilet without styrofoam.
quoted 4 lines I Sorta see the pendulum swinging back really> I Sorta see the pendulum swinging back really > quite far the other way. To some sort of uber-modernism. Something were > rules are created and very stricly adhered to. Like if your doing an Electro > track you have to use very specific sounds and a very recognizable beat.
people do that, & did that since the inception of techno. people did that since the beginnings of religion & organized life. should that really be defined as modernism, be it uber?
quoted 2 lines Or we'll all just keep doing whatever the hell we so desire and> Or we'll all just keep doing whatever the hell we so desire and > postmodernism will never die.
that doesn't seem to be the direction we're headed to. or maybe by metamodernism you meant that some would follow modernist ways & some postmodernist ones, but all the while _knowing_ that one isn't better than the other & that both have good & bad sides. so the next step would be knowing that you're knowing, & that whether you know or not doesn't make a difference? how far can we go with that? -- david
1999-08-05 19:34ChairCrusherThere is a tendency, when describing different movements of intellectual thought and artis
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ChairCrusher
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iduhntuhbelluhbiguhbent duhbance muhbusuhbic
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Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:34:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:
(idm) meta-modern
Reply to:
Re: (idm) another oneliner
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There is a tendency, when describing different movements of intellectual thought and artistic development, to act like there was a particular point of time where one could stand and see the whole vista of time clearly. This isn't really the case (DUH) but there you have it. Modernism started at the turn of the last century, as a reaction to the Victorian/Romantic movement of the 19th Century, which, in turn was a reaction to the Enlightenment period of the 18th century, which was a reaction, in turn, to the 'baroque' period of the 17th century, which was really the consolidation of the Renaissance, which was the re-establishment of world trade, scientific enquiry and the beginning of the rule of law, after what is usually called 'Middle Ages.' And the Middle Ages went from roughly the fall of Rome up until the 16th Century. The Middle ages, I think, were fairly accurately summarized by Mark Twain in "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court," and "Monty Python's Holy Grail." But ANYWAY, modernism was pretty much killed by the world wars in the 20th Century. Post-modernism is everything after that, for better or worse, and we're now kind of in the interregnum between post-modern thought and whatever is going to follow that. I think the key to post-post modernism is the rise of digital technology, and that most of what is being said about that right now is about as accurate as Popular Mechanics writing about 'personal helicopters' in the 40's. To bring it back on-topic -- if you look at what we call IDM, the work being done by Rich Devine, Push Button Objects, Autechre, Aphex Twin, the Kracfive crew, et al, you can draw some conclusions about the digital age. 1. Everything is just bits. If you wanted you could build a piece of music by typing in a few million 16 bit integers. 2. The difference between 'authentic' and 'fake' is impossible to determine, and probably completely beside the point. Is there a difference between a sampled string section and a real one? Perhaps, but I just edited and mastered a recording of a string quartet, where I assembled a 15 minute piece out of about 30 separate takes, and then did some not-so-subtle sonic manipulations to produce the master. How is that different from what, say, Amon Tobin or Luke Vibert does? 3. As a corrolary to 2, something can be completely synthetic -- i.e. created from bits and bobs entirely in a computer -- and at the same time be emotionally authentic. 4. There's no separating the medium and the message. So Oval making tracks by defacing CD's and sampling the glitches is as valid as playing a violin. The same thing holds for the continuing popularity of vinyl records -- the fact that you're wiggling a diamond needle in a groove informs the music. 5. Everything is interactive -- strangely enough before Cool Herc and Granmaster Flash, people used to drop the needle in the first groove, and then leave it play until the turntable picked the needle back up at the end of the side. The whole art of turntablism comes down to making something interactive that once was a passive, unidirectional experience. 6. There is no such thing as physical distance in the digital world. I can collaborate with a musician in Germany or Slovenia or New Zealand as easy as with someone who lives round the corner. Easier in fact, because my studio gets crowded if there's more than 2 people in it. 7. Signal and noise are artificial distinctions. You can make the noise the signal -- see Oval again. At any rate I'm going to stop now before doing the full David Toop or Simon Reynolds tapdance. kent williams -- kent@avalon.net
1999-08-05 20:20MxyzptlkGood answer. :-) "Zenon M. Feszczak" wrote: > > > > > what comes after postmodernism? > >
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Mxyzptlk
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Zenon M. Feszczak
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Thu, 05 Aug 1999 15:20:16 -0500
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
permalink · <37A9F200.8577CBC5@flash.net>
Good answer. :-) "Zenon M. Feszczak" wrote:
quoted 7 lines what comes after postmodernism?> > > > > what comes after postmodernism? > > > > Suicide? > > 3
-- jeff "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are wrong, even if they're right." dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." ICQ904008
1999-08-05 23:22Steve81778@aol.comhaven't you boys heard? irony is OUT sincerity is IN steve
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Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:22:13 EDT
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
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haven't you boys heard? irony is OUT sincerity is IN steve
1999-08-06 00:35Tom MillarMy previous response to the question- what comes after postmodernism- was a little cryptic
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Tom Millar
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Thu, 05 Aug 1999 20:35:17 -0400
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
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My previous response to the question- what comes after postmodernism- was a little cryptic. I said "answers." Then Stever here sez "irony is out, sincerity is in" and it made me reconsider my phrasing. Quite frankly we have been living in a world of subjective standards and massive irony for a while. This is the postmodern era- to each his own, but everybody is engaged in constant reappraisal of themselves and their subjectivity- you haven't started putting faith into absolutes, have you? Part of this is related to the scientific community's being behind the curve right now. The things we dreamed of in sci-fi pulp 50 years ago are still trying to be implemented in the real world. Societal reforms imagined nearly a century ago have still failed to make a difference in most people's lives. The stagnation in our supply of new situations has led to a nearly obsessive re-examination of everything around us to the point that nobody bats an eye any more when they see Sprite ads talking about how stupid soda commercials are. Basically our environment hasn't significantly changed for about a half century and we're rehashing old ideas at unbelievable rates using recursiveness and retro-reference as excuses. The 'net may be a new factor, but it still only affects a very puny part of the world's population. As more people get access to the global information exchange it ought to be interesting to see. What I'm getting to is this- we have dwelt on irony for far too long. There's not much left to be gained from making any more DMX Krew albums. Questioning everything and behaving like there are no viable absolutes leads to a downward spiral of absurdist antics that we're just now getting tired of, so I think it's time for a return to absolutes. I think people might be heading back towards standards and a structured canon of knowledge and information. Dada and stuff is cool, but ultimately Duchamp and Cage are too much for most people to grasp. So it's back to quality for us, I'm afraid- conceptual highmindedness just don't cut it anymore. I think. Maybe. Tom
1999-08-06 00:38mwe are sincere... we are IN and OUT too... m -- the foundry realaudio samples via: http://
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we are sincere... we are IN and OUT too... m -- the foundry realaudio samples via: http://www.foundrysite.com/sounds1.html out now... eM <the motor sessions ep> (lmtd. 7"/lmtd. cdr) the foundry <mote> (cd) coming soon... eM remix on <knots> issued on thousand/wmo [out 8/10/99] http://wiremailorder.com/thousand/knots.htm
1999-08-06 02:09mIntereesting points Tom. I also think it's worth considering the pace of the world and how
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Thu, 05 Aug 1999 18:09:59 -0800
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
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Intereesting points Tom. I also think it's worth considering the pace of the world and how that effects people. While one side of the discussion points out we haven't implemented ideas from 50 or 100 years ago, another aspect of that is we may not really understand how to use the things we already have to their best effect, that the speed with which the world comes at us everyday does not allow for assimilation, for real thinking and reacting to our environment. I think of humans as having basically the same pace today as we did at the dawn of civilization... it is based on our metabolism, the speed at which our brains function, our reaction time, etc., and perhaps this has changed somewhat over time, but by degrees, not factors of ten. For many eons the world outside us was within reach of that human speed, some things were bigger, some were faster, but we were dominant in many ways because of our skills. As we have modified and mechanized our environment, it moves at a speed which has increased significantly over the last, say, 500 years, to the point now where many things are running at a speed magnitudes faster than that old human constant. Is that healthy? Probably not, at least not if we let machines set the pace, and within that context maybe all we can do is recycle and revamp that which we already have at our fingertips. I'm a subscriber to the idea that the basic human mind/situation hasn't changed all that much over time, that we are limited/enabled by our context (which does change A LOT), so I would tend to say that things are much as they ever have been, *IN A RELATIVE SENSE*... BUT... this speed issue seems to me to be something which is truly different now as compared to past ages. How do we change this? Do we have to become ludites and destroy the technology? Would it be enough simply to grasp responsibility for the world instead of surrendering it to technological constraints and spec sheets (...if this computer goes this fast, then so must I)! Do I have too much time on my hands today (YES)? Am I avoiding other things I should be doing (YES!)? Anyway, how does this relate to IDM? Maybe this music facilitates meditation on these issues, restates them in another form. Maybe... it certainly brings them up for discussion! m -- the foundry realaudio samples via: http://www.foundrysite.com/sounds1.html out now... eM <the motor sessions ep> (lmtd. 7"/lmtd. cdr) the foundry <mote> (cd) coming soon... eM remix on <knots> issued on thousand/wmo [out 8/10/99] http://wiremailorder.com/thousand/knots.htm
1999-08-06 03:31Tom Millar> I'm a subscriber to the idea that the basic human mind/situation hasn't > changed all th
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Tom Millar
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, ,
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Thu, 05 Aug 1999 23:31:41 -0400
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
permalink · <37AA5717.BEE078D@unix.cas.utk.edu>
quoted 15 lines I'm a subscriber to the idea that the basic human mind/situation hasn't> I'm a subscriber to the idea that the basic human mind/situation hasn't > changed all that much over time, that we are limited/enabled by our > context (which does change A LOT), so I would tend to say that things > are much as they ever have been, *IN A RELATIVE SENSE*... BUT... this > speed issue seems to me to be something which is truly different now as > compared to past ages. How do we change this? Do we have to become > ludites and destroy the technology? Would it be enough simply to grasp > responsibility for the world instead of surrendering it to technological > constraints and spec sheets (...if this computer goes this fast, then so > must I)! Do I have too much time on my hands today (YES)? Am I avoiding > other things I should be doing (YES!)? > > Anyway, how does this relate to IDM? Maybe this music facilitates > meditation on these issues, restates them in another form. Maybe... it > certainly brings them up for discussion!
I agree that humans remain basically the same as they have been for 200,000 years, except for the minor changes caused by shifts in our average diet, which are sort of irrelevant to this discussion. However the speed issue is pretty interesting. Notice that most music these days, as a whole, is faster and faster than music from years ago. This might seem superficial but it relates strongly to what we are capable of - orchestras from centuries ago were not able to pull of the same technical precision at the high tempos that modern live performers are expected to be able to do; much less the machine-aided musicians discussed on this list. Music has not leveled out at a moderato- instead, a great deal of music now falls in the range of 100-120 and above, while some music now extends into hyperspace tempos which live musicians unaided by MIDI sync would never be able to achieve. So we're pushing the technology to extreme levels- the Sonic Decimator & related DSP stunts, the bass wallop of a Rotterdam track, the ridiculously fast-paced cut-ups of all our fave drill n' bass beat geeks. And the more we push the technology, the more we rely on it- it's a vicious cycle until we realize all of a sudden that Autechre without fucked up sounds is like Kid606 without DSP or Masonna without overdrive... just putting around being kind of silly in the final analysis. I suspect that the tools are slowly going to become less and less important and that craftsmanship will finally make a return to the spotlight. This is why Surgeon & Pacou & Theorem are so much more appealing to me than half the noisy cut-up pop postmodern shit. It's not the tools at all, it's composition and arrangement, conforming to absolutes and creating something original within an extremely limited, almost canonical structure. So I just ranted on and on and on. Yippee. Gotta go write poems for class... fun... Tom
1999-08-06 06:17daht> haven't you boys heard? > > irony is OUT > sincerity is IN > "word!" (style on the side,
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Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:17:27 -0700
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Re: (idm) another oneliner
permalink · <000201bee034$488130e0$e0072499@thadbigg>
quoted 5 lines haven't you boys heard?> haven't you boys heard? > > irony is OUT > sincerity is IN >
"word!" (style on the side, cause ya still gotta have a little fun :) -Thad
1999-08-06 17:53Chad MossholderAnd In is out. Review: Irony=OUT Sincerity=IN In=OUT > > haven't you boys heard? > > > > i
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'daht' , ,
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Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:53:09 -0400
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RE: (idm) another oneliner
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And In is out. Review: Irony=OUT Sincerity=IN In=OUT
quoted 11 lines haven't you boys heard?> > haven't you boys heard? > > > > irony is OUT > > sincerity is IN > > > > "word!" > > (style on the side, cause ya still gotta have a little fun :) > > -Thad