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In the new issue of Alternative Press, there is a huge section devoted to 'electronia'. But it is not concerned about whether or not 'electronia' is the next big thing(like the spin and rolling stone stories), they basically introduce everybody to the music. They don't just cover the big names like oribtal and fsol niether: vibert,pusher, ed rush, uziq,photek,ect.. all have a little section devoted to them. They also have a little section about all the different record labels. It is the one of the first thing's ive seen about 'electronia' that covers it with some amount of integrity. Maybe this will help some people in america to realise that there is more to the music than the Prodigy. They didn't say much about aphex twin though; i think they did that because they had a two page article about him in the previous issue.

On Thu, 1 May 1997, AFXmyMIND@aol.com wrote:

quoted 12 lines In the new issue of Alternative Press, there is a huge section devoted to

>In the new issue of Alternative Press, there is a huge section devoted to >'electronia'. But it is not concerned about whether or not 'electronia' is >the next big thing(like the spin and rolling stone stories), they basically >introduce everybody to the music. They don't just cover the big names like >oribtal and fsol niether: vibert,pusher, ed rush, uziq,photek,ect.. all have >a little section devoted to them. They also have a little section about all >the different record labels. It is the one of the first thing's ive seen >about 'electronia' that covers it with some amount of integrity. Maybe this >will help some people in america to realise that there is more to the music >than the Prodigy. They didn't say much about aphex twin though; i think they >did that because they had a two page article about him in the previous >issue.

oh please! AP is trying to out-Detail "Details" - no more. it's ridiculous. especially the way the pepper the 'usual suspects' with insider info. and it still reeks of Payola. why are Sneaker Pimps included in 'notable electronic artists' when the blurb about them is nothing but a thinly-veiled slam of their music?! and it'll take more than a token mention of Ed Rush, Boymerang, and Witchman for AP to regain it's 'cutting-edge' on the current musical climate. and GusGus?! of all people to warrant a sidebar - while Vibert and Paradinas are consigned to three-sentence passing mentions. could be because 4AD/Warner paid to bring all those journalists in the (cough, cough) 'scene' to Iceland. hmm... yes, there is more to electronica than Prodigy. but you wouldn't know it from the AP article. Chemical Brothers... Orb... FSOL... same old boring suspects. and the 'revamped/expanded' BPM section is basically still the same mix of trip-hop comps and such which you read about everywhere. it'll take a more convincing effort on AP's part if they're going to bring the 'real' electronica to their (core) audience of Marilyn Manson fans. trust me - i honestly tried to change things there. but they don't want them changed. any effort to give props and support to the REAL electronic revolutionaries was basically ignored or, worse, resented. just $0.02 from behind the scene GuerillaG2-G4/ gg

You seem to resent AP for only focusing on mainstream electronic acts, but how big is too big for you? What good would it do AP to give props to electronica acts which are smaller than Boymerang and Witchman? Hell, I've never heard either of them. As far as Gus Gus goes, they're a good band and probably haven't even sold ten thousand records yet. Do you think that AP should only focus on unsigned electronic acts without labels or without any press clippings? This is a very noble concept, but nobody would buy the magazine. I'm tired of people knocking the media/press for trying to be "cool" and falling a little short. If they are really trying to present a sample of electronica to newbies, then it looks to me like they picked a good sampling of the biggies and some lesser-known acts. Most of their readers probably haven't even heard the orb before. If these guys really do RESENT electronica (as many rawk-heads do), then it's their loss. But you can't knock them solely because they don't pick obscure enough acts to write about. Besides, one thing about electronic music we must remember is that many of these artists do not perform *live* much until AFTER they are famous, and even when they do perform they are usually too fucking boring for concert-goer types. So while unsigned rawk acts can generate a buzz by playing live for years, by opening for larger rawk acts, etc, electronic acts usually have to wait until they have a record before anyone in the press will get a chance to hear it. This is especially true in America, where there are still practically zero electronic acts, signed or unsigned. Out of all the bands mentioned in the article, and all the bands spoken of on the IDM list, almost all of them are Brits (the rest are other euros). This makes it difficult for an American magazine to get too excited about the "scene" when they can't really even be a part of the scene. So that's their reason for not being cool enough. That, and of course racism and homophobia. -CF

quoted 27 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: gman2@sprynet.com > it's ridiculous... > ...it'll take more than a token mention of Ed Rush, > Boymerang, and Witchman for AP to regain it's 'cutting-edge' on the > current > musical climate. and GusGus?! of all people to warrant a sidebar - > while Vibert and Paradinas are consigned to three-sentence passing > mentions. > yes, there is more to electronica than Prodigy. but you wouldn't know > it from > the AP article. Chemical Brothers... Orb... FSOL... same old boring > suspects. > and the 'revamped/expanded' BPM section is basically still the same > mix of > trip-hop comps and such which you read about everywhere. it'll take a > more > convincing effort on AP's part if they're going to bring the 'real' > electronica > to their (core) audience of Marilyn Manson fans. > trust me - i honestly tried to change things there. but they don't > want them > changed. any effort to give props and support to the REAL electronic > revolutionaries was basically ignored or, worse, resented. > > >

On Thu, 1 May 1997, Chris Fahey <chris@wanderlust.com> wrote:

quoted 5 lines You seem to resent AP for only focusing on mainstream electronic acts,

>You seem to resent AP for only focusing on mainstream electronic acts, >but how big is too big for you? What good would it do AP to give props >to electronica acts which are smaller than Boymerang and Witchman? Hell, >I've never heard either of them. As far as Gus Gus goes, they're a good >band and probably haven't even sold ten thousand records yet.

no - no - no. that's not what i'm saying at all! _Alternative Press_ DOES give props to Boymerang and Witchman in their electronica feature. both are excellent, deserving, and (for now) definitely obscure 'underground' artists. (both now have UK major-label affiliations, too) but the way AP went about it, tossing these underground artists in with the same stuff you see covered in any other glossy-print magazine, is symptomatic of everything AP does wrong. i wrote for AP - i've learned more than i'd have liked to about how they think. they have extremely talented writers, but the magazine has unfortunately enslaved itself to the mainstream. it wasn't always like that... things were different even just a few years ago. the process began when 'alternative' developed a second definition as 'modern rock'. . . AP saw that the real money was in that crowd and, while the people behind the magazine truly despise that music and must force themselves to (barely) control/sugarcoat their distaste, they do pander to their audience in the name of the Almighty Dollar. AP probably makes money hand over fist right now... AP did the programs for last year's Lollapalooza! i don't really know when everything shifted - one of my first approved-ed assignments was Alec Empire's first "Destroyer" 12" on Riot Beats! go figure THAT one out...

quoted 3 lines Do you think that AP should only focus on unsigned electronic acts

>Do you think that AP should only focus on unsigned electronic acts >without labels or without any press clippings? This is a very noble >concept, but nobody would buy the magazine.

again, no. that's the furthest thing from what i'm suggesting. NO print-format magazine could survive on such a concept. though it's a great idea. maybe someone could start up a webzine like this?

quoted 8 lines I'm tired of people knocking the media/press for trying to be "cool" and

>I'm tired of people knocking the media/press for trying to be "cool" and >falling a little short. If they are really trying to present a sample of >electronica to newbies, then it looks to me like they picked a good >sampling of the biggies and some lesser-known acts. Most of their >readers probably haven't even heard the orb before. If these guys really >do RESENT electronica (as many rawk-heads do), then it's their loss. But >you can't knock them solely because they don't pick obscure enough acts >to write about.

again you're misreading. what i said. here's the score: you have the latest TripHop compilation on Moonshine and you have the latest Nonplace Urban Field record. which do you think AP covers - although they have received review copies of BOTH? you couldn't even begin to imagine what a wrestling-match it is to get a non-promoed title into the magazine (i was able to sneak in two worthy records, Spring Heel Jack's _68 Million..._, pre-US release and Quoit's _Lounge)... but it was an uphill climb for either. not to mention the zillions of other titles for which they wouldn't even bat an eyelash. like i said, i TRIED. but it just led to hostility. about those NUF records? they agreed, i gave 'em the reviews, and then they spitefully killed them before publication. you can't win. it just burns me to see AP, a magazine with the resources and influence to be so much more than just another _Spin_ or _Rolling Stone_, play the same tired old cards to an audience which can handle more. including a sentence about Rephlex and a list of 'cool' labels doesn't do anything to further the readers' education. but giving review space and feature space to titles/artists which AREN'T being covered everywhere else does. and AP, for the most part, does not do this.

quoted 7 lines Besides, one thing about electronic music we must remember is that many

>Besides, one thing about electronic music we must remember is that many >of these artists do not perform *live* much until AFTER they are famous, >and even when they do perform they are usually too fucking boring for >concert-goer types. So while unsigned rawk acts can generate a buzz by >playing live for years, by opening for larger rawk acts, etc, electronic >acts usually have to wait until they have a record before anyone in the >press will get a chance to hear it.

electronica shouldn't play by Rock's rules. it can't! that's one of AP's biggest misjudgings. shaping electronic music to conform to the guidelines of Rock/Indie Rock is merely condescending to their audience. but i think that's the only way AP feels that it can cover the music which its' writers/editors truly love. look, i know these people; their tastes are not exactly represented in the 'zine's covers and feature stories. it's all money talking, definitely not an interest in furthering the cause of the music. their 'definitive' electronica feature was just a slick attempt to reshuffle the deck, deal out the same cards as all the other magazines - but in a slightly trickier way, and be seen as the most informed/informative 'zine on the scene. and if you don't believe that money speaks loudly at AP, check out the 'classified' ads they accept in each issue. 1-900 sex lines!!!

quoted 7 lines This is especially true in America, where there are still practically

>This is especially true in America, where there are still practically >zero electronic acts, signed or unsigned. Out of all the bands mentioned >in the article, and all the bands spoken of on the IDM list, almost all >of them are Brits (the rest are other euros). This makes it difficult >for an American magazine to get too excited about the "scene" when they >can't really even be a part of the scene. So that's their reason for not >being cool enough.

it's not about being cool! for gods sake... it's about AP trying to have its cake and eat it too. wanting to be 'alternative' press in both (TOTALLY contradictory!) senses of the word. and the result is that it places them right where Details and Spin are. there's no difference. and with AP's raw materials, there really SHOULD be. GuerillaG2-G4/ gg

On Fri, 02 May 1997, The Rare Guy <buh@clark.net> wrote:

quoted 5 lines the AP article. Chemical Brothers... Orb... FSOL... same old boring suspects.

>>the AP article. Chemical Brothers... Orb... FSOL... same old boring suspects. > >FSOL boring? not imho. and if you read the above you notice he says they >DIDN'T JUST TALK about big names like Orbital and FSOL, ie: they talked >about others too.

same old boring suspects as in 'aren't we bored of seeing the same names over and over and over in all these magazines?'. i wasn't suggesting that the music these artists make is boring or devoid of merit . . . that would be another issue/can of worms altogether. ;-)

quoted 7 lines changed. any effort to give props and support to the REAL electronic

>>changed. any effort to give props and support to the REAL electronic >>revolutionaries was basically ignored or, worse, resented. > >FSOL *is* one of the REAL electronic revolutionaries, and so is ?-ziq, >vibert and pusher, all which were focused on in the article. if you deny >that at least ?-ziq, vibert and pusher are revolutionaries, then well then I >reckon I'll just shut up, instead of argueing bigtime ;)

two separate situations here. i'm talking about reviews and features in this sentence, NOT the electronica feature. would they let me review _Feed Me Weird Things_? no. _Drum & Bass for Papa_? no. how about little pieces on Vibert or Jenkinson? uh ... no. no. no. no. the revolutionaries don't warrant page space. oh, but watch the Plug/D&B4P coverage flood those pages once the Nothing reissue hits the streets and promo stacks. . . GuerillaG2-G4/ gg

gman2@sprynet.com wrote:

quoted 42 lines On Thu, 1 May 1997, AFXmyMIND@aol.com wrote:

> > On Thu, 1 May 1997, AFXmyMIND@aol.com wrote: > >In the new issue of Alternative Press, there is a huge section devoted to > >'electronia'. But it is not concerned about whether or not 'electronia' is > >the next big thing(like the spin and rolling stone stories), they basically > >introduce everybody to the music. They don't just cover the big names like > >oribtal and fsol niether: vibert,pusher, ed rush, uziq,photek,ect.. all have > >a little section devoted to them. They also have a little section about all > >the different record labels. It is the one of the first thing's ive seen > >about 'electronia' that covers it with some amount of integrity. Maybe this > >will help some people in america to realise that there is more to the music > >than the Prodigy. They didn't say much about aphex twin though; i think they > >did that because they had a two page article about him in the previous > >issue. > > oh please! AP is trying to out-Detail "Details" - no more. > > it's ridiculous. especially the way the pepper the 'usual suspects' with insider > info. and it still reeks of Payola. why are Sneaker Pimps included in 'notable > electronic artists' when the blurb about them is nothing but a thinly-veiled > slam of their music?! and it'll take more than a token mention of Ed Rush, > Boymerang, and Witchman for AP to regain it's 'cutting-edge' on the current > musical climate. and GusGus?! of all people to warrant a sidebar - while Vibert > and Paradinas are consigned to three-sentence passing mentions. could be because > 4AD/Warner paid to bring all those journalists in the (cough, cough) 'scene' to > Iceland. hmm... > > yes, there is more to electronica than Prodigy. but you wouldn't know it from > the AP article. Chemical Brothers... Orb... FSOL... same old boring suspects. > and the 'revamped/expanded' BPM section is basically still the same mix of > trip-hop comps and such which you read about everywhere. it'll take a more > convincing effort on AP's part if they're going to bring the 'real' electronica > to their (core) audience of Marilyn Manson fans. > > trust me - i honestly tried to change things there. but they don't want them > changed. any effort to give props and support to the REAL electronic > revolutionaries was basically ignored or, worse, resented. > > just $0.02 from behind the scene > GuerillaG2-G4/ gg > >

Sour grapes G-man? Not that they are a cutting edge electronica magazine by any strech of the imagination, but they have their place. I'll assume that you were not concieved into this world with instant knowledge of all that is good and electronic. I'd even be willing to believe that at some point you picked up a magazine because you wanted to find out what you might want to listen to in the future. IT IS A ROCK MAGAZINE NOT THE FUCKING WIRE OR MUZIK OR EVEN JOCKEY SLUT! SO BY THE MERE FACT THAT THEY EVEN COVER ANYTHING OTHER THAN ROQUE AND ROLL SHOULD SEEM TO BE AT LEAST A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. They do a relatively decent job of covering things that allot of your average rock fans are unaware of. So due to the fact that a rock mag is covering electronic music and doing it in a relatively responsible manner I'd venture to say is a good thing. Just my $.02 from behind the scene. And by the way G-man I would Hazard a guess, that maybe misrepresentation and fraud on your part had a bit more to do with your parting of ways. Care to clarify? ----Campion

Lance wrote:

quoted 13 lines trust me - i honestly tried to change things there. but they don't want them

>>trust me - i honestly tried to change things there. but they don't want them >>changed. any effort to give props and support to the REAL electronic >>revolutionaries was basically ignored or, worse, resented. >> >>just $0.02 from behind the scene >>GuerillaG2-G4/ gg >> > >Can you say "sour grapes?" Isn't it funny how ex-employees >never have anything nice to say. GMAN gets fired and now >the publication sucks. Does that mean all the other >publications you used to work for suck too? >

Sour grapes may be the case - but I too get tired of seeing the same names used over and over and over - (ie - chem bros and the prodigy). Just once, I'd like to see someone in the pop press go into the roots of electronic music - but most music "journalists" are too lazy/ignorant.

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Richard B wrote:

quoted 4 lines Sour grapes may be the case - but I too get tired of seeing the same names

> Sour grapes may be the case - but I too get tired of seeing the same names > used over and over and over - (ie - chem bros and the prodigy). > Just once, I'd like to see someone in the pop press go into the roots of > electronic music - but most music "journalists" are too lazy/ignorant.

what if more journalists gave more attention to derrick may and the like? wouldn't you get sick of it then...especially if it was repeated over and over in magazine after magazine? i have news for everyone...we live in a pop culture. it all boils down to elitism and not wanting your precious alec empire and squarepusher and photek exposed to the masses. so who cares if they push the prodigy and chembros...it's already evident that nobody on this list will admit to liking them anyway. i don't hear anyone complaining about pearl jam or beck. i'm certain that if squarepusher became as popular as chembros, half of you would abandon them. why? because marilyn manson wearing teens are listening to our "sacred" music and we wouldn't want that, would we? listen to music because *you* enjoy it, not because the media says it's cool or it sucks. i've been a prodigy fan since '91. i don't give a rats ass if "firestarter" is played 24/7. it's about time electronic music is played on the radio 'cuz i'd rather hear "firestarter" than the latest hot single from bush or no doubt. the media was like this during the whole rave movement of '90-92 in the u.s...no credit to derrick or kraftwerk or tangerine dream. who cares. we know, and that's all that matters. and besides, half the world is ignorant, a quarter is plain stupid, and then there's....well, i won't get into that. :> let the flames begin... prymal ========== primal@interaccess.com www.interaccess.com/primal/ A New January - electro/techno/synth music www.interaccess.com/primal/january/ ==========

I understand. But I never really even thought of AP as being hip to anything but Seattle grunge. They've always been a grunge magazine as far as I'm concerned. I never really read it much, but after seeing so many longhairs/goatees with flannel and guitars on the pages, I kinda wrote it off. If anything, I expect AP to be a little MORE conservative musically than Details or even Entertainment Weekly, who at least have to respond to what their readers are actually buying. AP seems particularly *resistant* to being involved in a upsurge of electronic acts - they don't want to be a part of the death of "blokes with guitars and long hair" acts which they so cherish. That's why their title is oxymoronic. They have canonized a certain type of music (grunge rawk) as being "alternative" for so long that reporting on what is actually "alternative" (i.e., electronica) now would alienate their readers. (It's like the word "modernism", which technically refers to a period of art history from (roughly) the teens to the fifties. That's why they had to make up the word postmodernism. Maybe we need a "postalternative" music (I'm being facetious).) There are still lots of industry rawkers who still don't even get what all this electronic music is. They think disco is music for gays. They think dance music is for "urban contemporary" radio. They can't tell Ce Ce Peniston from Aphex Twin. They think sampling is plagiarism. Many still barely get the idea of hip hop (though they're really into those crazy Beastie Boys!). Rawk's rules are still the mainstay of the music industry. Witness the craze over DJ Shadow: How come it takes comparisons to rawk godz like Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page to make him famous? How come he's one of the only DJ's to ever be reviewed by Bob Christgau? Toppling the Rawk Empire will not be easy. In fact, based on history's monumental inertia, I'm still betting that in 3 years, the most popular band in the world will have only a guitarist, a singer/guitarist, a bassist, and a drummer. -CF

quoted 6 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: gman2@sprynet.com [SMTP:gman2@sprynet.com] > > ... you're misreading. what i said. > > GuerillaG2-G4/ gg

At 04:02 PM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote:

quoted 6 lines On Thu, 1 May 1997, AFXmyMIND@aol.com wrote:

>On Thu, 1 May 1997, AFXmyMIND@aol.com wrote: >>In the new issue of Alternative Press, there is a huge section devoted to >>'electronia'. But it is not concerned about whether or not 'electronia' is >>the next big thing(like the spin and rolling stone stories), they basically >>introduce everybody to the music. They don't just cover the big names like >>oribtal and fsol niether: vibert,pusher, ed rush, uziq,photek,ect.. all

have

quoted 5 lines a little section devoted to them. They also have a little section about all

>>a little section devoted to them. They also have a little section about all >>the different record labels. It is the one of the first thing's ive seen >>about 'electronia' that covers it with some amount of integrity. Maybe this >>will help some people in america to realise that there is more to the music >>than the Prodigy. They didn't say much about aphex twin though; i think

they

quoted 6 lines did that because they had a two page article about him in the previous

>>did that because they had a two page article about him in the previous >>issue. > >oh please! AP is trying to out-Detail "Details" - no more. > >it's ridiculous. especially the way the pepper the 'usual suspects' with

insider

quoted 9 lines info. and it still reeks of Payola.

>info. and it still reeks of Payola. > >trust me - i honestly tried to change things there. but they don't want them >changed. any effort to give props and support to the REAL electronic >revolutionaries was basically ignored or, worse, resented. > >just $0.02 from behind the scene >GuerillaG2-G4/ gg >

Can you say "sour grapes?" Isn't it funny how ex-employees never have anything nice to say. GMAN gets fired and now the publication sucks. Does that mean all the other publications you used to work for suck too? -->-Lance--- p.o. box 450715 westlake, ohio 44145 united states

someone wrote:

quoted 4 lines Can you say "sour grapes?" Isn't it funny how ex-employees

>Can you say "sour grapes?" Isn't it funny how ex-employees >never have anything nice to say. GMAN gets fired and now >the publication sucks. Does that mean all the other >publications you used to work for suck too?

for the record i was not 'fired' from AP. i left because i felt that it was a lost cause, at least for my particular interests. all the other publications i was fired from, eh? all ZERO of them? hey - did it surprise anyone to see my buddy Lance turn this one into another personal attack? i was sitting by the clock, watching... waiting... and he did not disappoint. how nice, when so little in life is predictable. btw, remember that "just my $0.02" is internet code for IMHO. everything i've said has been IMHO. i could be completely wrong. or partially wrong. or completely right. take from it what you will. i DO take the issue of covering electronica, the (hack) Music of the Future (ack!), to heart. it means a great deal to me. maybe my overheated emotions got the best of me back there. isn't that the 'fun' of this whole Net thang anyways? GuerillaG2-G4/ gg

At 08:16 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:

quoted 7 lines someone wrote:

>someone wrote: >>Can you say "sour grapes?" Isn't it funny how ex-employees >>never have anything nice to say. GMAN gets fired and now >>the publication sucks. Does that mean all the other >>publications you used to work for suck too? > >for the record i was not 'fired' from AP. i left because i felt that it

was a

quoted 2 lines lost cause, at least for my particular interests.

>lost cause, at least for my particular interests. >

I thought they AP stopped accepting your work. The employees of AP that I know sure don't have anything good to say about you.

quoted 1 line hey - did it surprise anyone to see my buddy Lance turn this one into

>hey - did it surprise anyone to see my buddy Lance turn this one into

another

quoted 1 line personal attack? i was sitting by the clock, watching... waiting... and he

>personal attack? i was sitting by the clock, watching... waiting... and he

did

quoted 2 lines not disappoint. how nice, when so little in life is predictable.

>not disappoint. how nice, when so little in life is predictable. >

If I recall I'm not the only IDMer that has criticized gman2. There's no personal vendetta, just observations and, obviously, I'm not the only one who makes them. -->-Lance--- p.o. box 450715 westlake, ohio 44145 united states