IDM Mailing Archive

dave walker disses FSOL:

quoted 10 lines Until yesterday, I never could quite put my finger on why everyone

>Until yesterday, I never could quite put my finger on why everyone >else seemed to be a lot more impressed with their material than me. >In the course of some intensive Sunday afternoon loafing, I put on >Amorphous Androgynous' _Tales of Ephidrina_, and _tried_ to listen to >it closely. No matter how hard I tried to concentrate on it, I kept >being drawn back to the much more interesting issue of _the New >Yorker_ sitting on my coffee table. As pretty and impressive as >Dougans' and Cockbain's material tends to be, it almost never >*engages* me -- I might as well be listening to a 40 minute sample >CD.

how odd. sometimes i find it hard to remember what their stuff sounds like because it is so advanced... but of course after numerous repeated listenings i can hear just about any part of "ephidrena" in my head at will. i really don't understand all these comments about it being sterile and just a collection of sounds - i hear melodies all over the place. they aren't traditional forms and they aren't played in traditional ways but they are in there. i'd say the fault lies with the listener, not the creators. perhaps FSOL is just too... well... *futuristic* for the people on this list (i'm not singling you out dave) who claim that they want to hear the future of music but in actuality prefer a thumpin' 909, some gratuitous weird noises, and a few simple synth lines around it. i've noticed a tendency when dissing FSOL to say "well, i really liked Papua New Guinea, but this new stuff just doesn't work for me." PNG is a very accesible tune in a standard format that just happens to have a few really well chosen (and integrated) samples. in the Mixmag interview i transcribed a while ago they noted that they had plenty of tracks of that sort of stuff lying around but they preferred to challenge themselves and their listeners by doing something *different*. there was a comment on the list earlier about how someone was disappointed by the aphex twin "on" single since it was similar to other aphex works.

quoted 4 lines beyond "Papua New Guinea", no FSOL track has ever done that for me

>beyond "Papua New Guinea", no FSOL track has ever done that for me >(though I will admit to not having heard "Cascade" yet -- the >descriptions lead me to believe it's probably more of the same, >though.)

it's more similar to AA than PNG, yes.

quoted 3 lines I don't *dislike* FSOL -- indeed, they're quite pleasant enough to

>I don't *dislike* FSOL -- indeed, they're quite pleasant enough to >listen to, but at this point I've got about as much background music >as I think I'll ever need

well, i couldn't disagree more. if FSOL have a fault, and you did mention this, it is that their music is sometimes abstract and intellectual to a fault. as you said - it engages the head but not the heart. well, if you can listen to "mountain goat" and not be affected, then i guess we don't have much musical language in common. and before giving up on them for good, check out their Curve remix. even people who don't like "cascade" think it's excellent. Jon Drukman jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

Jon Drukman defends FSOL:

quoted 4 lines how odd. sometimes i find it hard to remember what their stuff sounds

> how odd. sometimes i find it hard to remember what their stuff sounds > like because it is so advanced... but of course after numerous > repeated listenings i can hear just about any part of "ephidrena" in > my head at will.

To be quite blunt about it, I haven't felt compelled to listen to "ephidrena" enough to gain anything near that level of familiarity with it. No more than I get the urge to look at the white textured walls in my apartment for hours trying to find the smooth bits, if you get my analogy...

quoted 4 lines i really don't understand all these comments about

> i really don't understand all these comments about > it being sterile and just a collection of sounds - i hear melodies all > over the place. they aren't traditional forms and they aren't played > in traditional ways but they are in there.

And I hear a large sample collection, creatively applied to be sure, but not much that goes beyond cleverness for cleverness's sake.

quoted 6 lines i'd say the fault lies

> i'd say the fault lies > with the listener, not the creators. perhaps FSOL is just > too... well... *futuristic* for the people on this list (i'm not > singling you out dave) who claim that they want to hear the future of > music but in actuality prefer a thumpin' 909, some gratuitous weird > noises, and a few simple synth lines around it.

Forgive my bluntness once again, but that's a truckload of buffalo ordure. I don't have a really clear picture of what the future of music will be, and despite protestations to the contrary I'm not particularly convinced that most musicians and IDM-readers really know either. I know that it won't be world full of 303/909 acid stompers, but I'm equally convinced that it won't be a formless collage of samples and "pretty bits" wrapped in a raytraced cover with "Future Sound" stamped on the spine in big, friendly letters. I think we're kidding ourselves more than we'd probably like to believe.

quoted 5 lines i've noticed a

> i've noticed a > tendency when dissing FSOL to say "well, i really liked Papua New > Guinea, but this new stuff just doesn't work for me." PNG is a very > accesible tune in a standard format that just happens to have a few > really well chosen (and integrated) samples.

So true. But it _works_. For all it's "simplicity" and adherence to "standard" techno structure, it achieves more for me than the majority of the "listen to the wonderful noises, and pass the bong while you're at it" stuff on AA. Perhaps it's a matter of history and perspective -- I'm approaching this from more of a "Detroit" direction. To me, what Jeff Mills accomplishes on "Atlantis" is far more impressive than what Dougans & Cockbain do on "Ephidrena" -- working almost entirely with synthesized/tweaked sounds (produced on bog-standard synths and a phalanx of distortion boxes) he creates a *coherent* sonic landscape that never sounds forced or gimmicky.

quoted 5 lines well, i couldn't disagree more. if FSOL have a fault, and you did

> well, i couldn't disagree more. if FSOL have a fault, and you did > mention this, it is that their music is sometimes abstract and > intellectual to a fault. as you said - it engages the head but not > the heart. well, if you can listen to "mountain goat" and not be > affected, then i guess we don't have much musical language in common.

I *do* like "Mountain Goat", actually... But the fact remains that most of the time I'm listening to their stuff I feel like they're trying too hard to impress; that their soundscapes distract rather than enlighten.

quoted 1 line and before giving up on them for good, check out their Curve remix.

> and before giving up on them for good, check out their Curve remix.

OK, but I warn you I like Curve better than FSOL :). -Dave (still trying to find something else as good as that last Born Under a Rhyming Planet single...) | Dave Walker, Detroit Art Services (DAS) | | | | marmoset@msen.com "...driving in my Cosmic Car..." |

Dave Walker:

quoted 4 lines To be quite blunt about it, I haven't felt compelled to listen to

>To be quite blunt about it, I haven't felt compelled to listen to >"ephidrena" enough to gain anything near that level of familiarity with >it. No more than I get the urge to look at the white textured walls in my >apartment for hours trying to find the smooth bits, if you get my analogy...

sorry, i think the analogy is more like "i took one look at this painting but it was just a complete mass of unintelligible swirls and colors." you're looking at something like an impressionist painting and only seeing the little dots, not the picture underneath.

quoted 7 lines perhaps FSOL is just

>> perhaps FSOL is just >> too... well... *futuristic* for the people on this list (i'm not >> singling you out dave) who claim that they want to hear the future of >> music but in actuality prefer a thumpin' 909, some gratuitous weird >> noises, and a few simple synth lines around it. > >Forgive my bluntness once again, but that's a truckload of buffalo ordure.

well, i've already got a few letters in private from people who agree with me on that point, so you'll forgive me if i continue to believe it.

quoted 3 lines I don't have a really clear picture of what the future of music will be,

>I don't have a really clear picture of what the future of music will be, >and despite protestations to the contrary I'm not particularly convinced >that most musicians and IDM-readers really know either.

i didn't mean to say that "in the future, all music will sound like FSOL" - just that they are doing stuff that is too complicated for some people to grok in the present day and perhaps in the future it will all seem simpler.

quoted 4 lines So true. But it _works_. For all it's "simplicity" and adherence to

>So true. But it _works_. For all it's "simplicity" and adherence to >"standard" techno structure, it achieves more for me than the majority >of the "listen to the wonderful noises, and pass the bong while you're >at it" stuff on AA.

for you, yes. but i get the sense from you (and others) who are perplexed by AA that an album full of PNG-style music would be quite welcome. FSOL themselves realize that that would probably get good reviews and sell quite well but they prefer to forge ahead. and i applaud them for it.

quoted 7 lines Perhaps it's a matter of history and perspective -- I'm approaching

>Perhaps it's a matter of history and perspective -- I'm approaching >this from more of a "Detroit" direction. To me, what Jeff Mills >accomplishes on "Atlantis" is far more impressive than what Dougans & >Cockbain do on "Ephidrena" -- working almost entirely with >synthesized/tweaked sounds (produced on bog-standard synths and a >phalanx of distortion boxes) he creates a *coherent* sonic landscape >that never sounds forced or gimmicky.

personally, i don't think AA is forced or gimmicky either - it all flows in a *natural* manner. there's a sound on "swab" towards the end - a sort of downward sweeping dark synth that appears and fits in perfectly with the beat. it continues through the break and "mountain goat" takes off around it - but the sound is still repeating at the same interval! and it fits perfectly in both tracks. touches like that are why I claim that AA is inspired art and not a bunch of thrown together noodling. listening to "accelerator" right now and totally grooving... Jon Drukman jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

quoted 4 lines sorry, i think the analogy is more like "i took one look at this

> sorry, i think the analogy is more like "i took one look at this > painting but it was just a complete mass of unintelligible swirls and > colors." you're looking at something like an impressionist painting > and only seeing the little dots, not the picture underneath.

To-may-to to-mah-to. I can appreciate that their work is quite impressive to a number of people, but I can't shake the impression that they're just trying too damn hard to impress. Remember, some of the impressionists were crap, too. :) [for the record, I don't think FSoL are crap, just curiously overrated.]

quoted 11 lines perhaps FSOL is just

> >> perhaps FSOL is just > >> too... well... *futuristic* for the people on this list (i'm not > >> singling you out dave) who claim that they want to hear the future of > >> music but in actuality prefer a thumpin' 909, some gratuitous weird > >> noises, and a few simple synth lines around it. > > > >Forgive my bluntness once again, but that's a truckload of buffalo ordure. > > well, i've already got a few letters in private from people who agree > with me on that point, so you'll forgive me if i continue to believe > it.

And I've gotten numerous pieces of private e-mail from people who felt that your original implication was _creative_, if not downright insulting and condescending to those of us who haven't been blessed with the gift of FSoL appreciation. What it comes down to is this: I believe I understand what FSoL have set out to do, and to my mind they haven't succeeded... yet. Perhaps _Lifeforms_ will be brilliant, warm, and coherent. Maybe it will be "Papua New Guinea" parts 2 through 13 (Acperience, anyone? :) ). But (my opinion, of course), if it's as directionless as "Ephidrina" they might as well not even bother.

quoted 4 lines i didn't mean to say that "in the future, all music will sound like

> i didn't mean to say that "in the future, all music will sound like > FSOL" - just that they are doing stuff that is too complicated for > some people to grok in the present day and perhaps in the future it > will all seem simpler.

In a private email, another poster vocalized something that's been in the back of my mind for a while: that lately Dougans and Cockbain are playing primarily to the critics and other musicians, and that their vision is suffering as a result. The pretentious piffle they were spouting in that interview clipping you posted a while back seems to back up this line of thinking.

quoted 3 lines for you, yes. but i get the sense from you (and others) who are

> for you, yes. but i get the sense from you (and others) who are > perplexed by AA that an album full of PNG-style music would be quite > welcome.

You're quite wrong. I'd find that dead boring, in fact. You seem to have misinterpreted my disinclination towards their current sound as a desire to hear the same damn song over and over again.

quoted 1 line listening to "accelerator" right now and totally grooving...

> listening to "accelerator" right now and totally grooving...

...let tha riddim hit 'em... | Dave Walker, Detroit Art Services (DAS) -- marmoset@msen.com | | | | "And it's a heavenly pop hit if anyone wants it..." |

I thought I would share my review of the new FSOL with you as well, although I think Ashdown did it justice. I just received it last night because URB wanted it in their next issue (May 2) - so I didn't have as much time to review it as I would have liked...so anyway, here it is: Future Sound of London Lifeform (Astralwerks) Rumor has it that when Garry Cobain and Brian Dougans released Tales of Ephidrena under the nom de plume Amorphous Androgynous last year, it was a collection of material that they thought was not good enough to release under their Future Sound of London project, that these were essentially the outtakes. It ended up being an incredible record, so much so that I couldn't imagine what the next Future Sound release would be like if these were the rejects. In Lifeform, we finally find out. When I saw Lifeform sitting on Raymond's desk, I rather unceremoniously snatched it and wouldn't let go. Few doubts were in my mind that it would live up to the impressive back catalogue already amassed by Future Sound of London, also known under such names as Amorphous Androgynous, Metropolis, Humanoid, and Fuzzy Logic. Driving back home from the URB office with my newly borrowed treasure in my tape player gave me a good introduction as to what the album would be like - I had great difficulty keeping control of the car as I sailed across the 10 freeway. Lifeform is divided into eighteen tracks, but like many of their other releases, they tend to run together and become a whole entity. The only prior release from this album is the single "Cascade", the opener here, but it seems to be more useful to discusss this as an unbroken whole. This is not the sort of piece that merits picking and choosing in the CD player, it is intended to be an entire experience. Many of the sounds that tend to appear in many of their releases are also present here, but there is a huge wealth of new ones in this mind odyssey, including a vocal cameo by Liz Frasier of the Cocteau Twins. There is less of an emphasis on the dance element that encompassed much of their last Future Sound release Accelerator, instead attending even more to the development and proliferation of sounds. It is an exploration both in biology and in computer hardware, a manifestation of the ever increasing link between life and the machine. There are no sufficient words to describe the beauty found here. In short, it is a transcendent work of art. (Tamara Palmer) I would appreciate feedback on the review. Thanks! Tamara Palmer Women Respond To Bass ............................................................................... trance@netcom.com (the address of choice) izzyzi5@mvs.oac.ucla.edu izzypk3@mvs.oac.ucla.edu (yes, i is a college student) urbmag@netcom.com (open for your comments about URB Magazine!) ...............................................................................

quoted 2 lines i got a very odd message from FSOL in my emailbox this morning. anybody

> i got a very odd message from FSOL in my emailbox this morning. anybody > else get it as well?

Pas moi. What did it say? Sami