Hey Joel, we really should take this off list. Forgive
me everyone since I took some time writing this and
adding links to some good articles i went ahead and
posted this to the list. I'm sorry if this offends
anyone. I'm entirely open to talking with anyone pro
or anti war "off list" and discussing things
intelligently. Again I'm sorry for the non-music
content.
< those who want the last word never get it. so you
reply to me and we can both chat off list. as for you
spanking me for my volume of emails.. i am sorry but
this war is very much a part of my existance right now
and i take it seriously. thanks for a well thought out
response unlike others on this list i am glad you
don't stop ambulences. to answer your many questions
with one. I say this...>
I think everyone in the world is very concerned! This
country is split in two regardless of what the polls
say.
< I feel that I am doing much more by standing behind
our troops in my spirit and prayers than more than
90% of protestors. >
All the anti-war people are behind the troops too, we
all want them back safely. They are not at fault they
are doing their jobs. The fault clearly lies with
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld plain and simple. Neither
Bush nor Blair could make a solid case and they
undermined their own efforts by providing falsified
documentation. If they did PROVE a case to the world,
do you think that our neighbors Canada and Mexico
would oppose us? They RISK a lot by refusing, since
they are our two biggest trading partners. The
"Coalition Of The Willing" is a farce, the only
countries are really sending troops are UK, US and
Australia. Some other countries have been bribed and
coerced but they aren't providing any REAL support.
Bulgaria only signed up as a thank you for the US
helping them to get in the EU and NATO.
Ari Fleisher was laughed off stage when he tried to
defend that the US wasn't bribing.
http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/02/26_Ari.html
< do i feel that this is a just war to actually fight
myself? yes I do. I would be scared shitless but I
would for many reasons. >
I'm glad you feel as ease, at this is a just war. I
certainly don't, Bush never made a case
Jimmy Carter wrote a good article about "Just War"
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/09/opinion/09CART.html
< I used to be in the anarchist youth federation. I
have grown and those viewpoints have helped me to
formulate non-biased opinions. I believe that every
man and woman over there fighting on the coalition
side is a hero... go ahead hate me for it.. i know
that your abilty to talk and type is a freedom that
others before you bled for. >
Well Joel I certainly would not hate you for having a
difference of opinion. However, I don't understand
some of the intolerance I see in this country. Like
the guy that got arrested for wearing a peace shirt in
the mall, or the 16 year old kid that was spat on by a
crowd and told to go back to Iraq just because he
didn't stand up and wave the flag. This is ridiculous.
I don't diminish anything that our troops do, they are
brave men and women that are doing their jobs. If Bush
and Blair had strong evidence then they should have
worked with the UN inspectors and saved war as a last
resort. They didn't. Bush rushed to war (because of
weather) and never made a credible case. If they made
a case I would probably feel a lot differently.
I think the US represents only about 6% of the world
population and even we are split on this. Most of the
world is completely against this war.
< do i want blood? that is the wrong question. do I
want proactive action in times that deem it necessary?
yes i damn well do.>
Well I think a better course of action would have been
to make stronger argument (with facts), work with our
Allies and the UN, instead of alienating them. The US
has spent over 50 years building up international
alliances and working with organizations to develop
policy. The Bush doctrine has dealt a serious blow to
all of that work, and we've never been more hate in
the world as we are today.
< I read news wires from non-american groups. I
haven't heard any bush propaganda that you so
eloquently refer to but give no examples. >
Well perhaps you haven't realized it. Do you know who
Rupert Murdoch is? He owns over 250 newspapers and the
Fox news network. He's super hardcore republican and
all his media companies reflect his ideology. There
has been a big shift to the right regarding the media.
I remember when Bush went to Europe the first time.
Nearly all the European leaders detested him and their
were protests and some riots in every city he visited.
Our media said that Bush was successful and he won the
hearts and minds of the Europeans. I had to laugh when
I heard that.
The corporate news hasn't been objective at all it's
been very one-sided "cheerleading" this war. The
average Joe that doesn't read the papers only hears
this one-sided message. And a lot of talk radio is
very right wing. There have been plenty of objective
articles in the newspapers, but the TV is a different
story.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,906875,00.html
< all governments like all companies have something to
hide... nothing is pure. >
Absolutely
< but very very good this country is. (in response to
your vietnam war vet point) >
We liberated 3 million vietnamese too bad they were
dead. Ok I was a little sarcastic there, the US has
done GOOD and BAD things, plain and simple. Read about
the secret wars Reagan was involved in Central America
I guarantee you will have a different opinion after
you read this. I was stunned when I read this
How Holocausts Happen, The United States In Central
America by Douglas V. Porpora
http://www.temple.edu/tempress/titles/725_reg_print.html
< hold on lemme read some more of what you said so I
can give my rebuttle. "cheerleading this war" more
propaganda talk.. lumping everyone into a category
with the same likeminded attitude.. >
It's not objective. And it's very one-sided designed
to get us all pumped up with patriotism and not
question the war.
<i would like you to use that same psychological
manipulation on liberal anti-war protestors... but you
won't because it doesn't help your cause. were you
against bombing kosovo? what about the first gulf
war?>
We aren't trying to compare Kosovo to the current Iraq
war, are we? With Kosovo there was already a war going
on and we took a side, which is very different from
pre-emptively attacking a country that showed no
imminent signs of threat.
Regarding the Gulf War, there's some background info
that often gets omitted. First off, Kuwait use to be
part of Iraq, for some reason Britain (the colonizer)
decided to cut the country into two. Many leaders
prior to Saddam (and including him) were very mad
about this. Secondly, since Saddam was really chummy
with Reagan and Bush Sr they told Washington what they
were planning to do ahead of time, and Washington said
they weren't concerned with disputes among Arab
nations which is basically a green light.
I read this in the Los Angeles Times, but it also
appears here.
http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030105Marshall.html
Since Kuwait was a sovereign country that had been
invaded and the Gulf War really had a world coalition
with UN support I wasn't opposed to it. I do think we
could have done a lot less carpetbombing. Of course,
the only pictures that we saw on the news were smart
bombs which only accounted for less than 8% of all the
bombs used.
< we created saddam hussein I agree and we should have
finished it before I agree and we made a mistake that
can't be prolonged... >
Some people think the reason we spared Saddam was so
we could justify to the Saudis a reason to have a base
there. Makes sense, I don't know if this is true.
Apparently, the US showed satellite photos of Saddam's
forces massing on the Saudi border which were later
proven to be false.
< or we will have another SEPTEMBER 11th and it will
be our fault. think outside the box: >
The CIA & FBI couldn't find any connection between
Iraq and Al Qaeda. Saddam is way weaker than he has
ever been, we've routinely bombed him for 12 years,
and all signs point that he has been effectively
contained for 12 years. If there's real evidence
pointing otherwise than it should have been given to
the UN.
Regardless of whether he has anything or not, there
will be some planted, to justify the war. It's like
the cop plants a gun after he killed an innocent
person. So we'll probably never know the truth.
I think the real issue that inflames the middle east
is the Palestinian/Israeli issue. Probably the safer
thing to prevent terrorism would be to actively work
out a two state solution. Attacking another Arab state
(without UN support) and causing a potential
humanitarian crisis and high civilian casualties, is
likely to breeding thousands of more terrorists, thus
making it more dangerous for us, not safer.
If we don't do a good job rebuilding Iraq and
Afghanistan, we could get the opposite goals then was
intended. I see Bush messing this up since he has
messed everything else up. He hasn't even fixed our
economy, what's he going to do give the Iraqis an
ineffectual tax cut?
< we are the most powerful country in the world with a
great freedom that most others don't have... be
thankful and support your troops. >
As that nation I think we have an obligation to obey
international laws and work with the UN. Weakening the
UN and calling our Allies "old europe" is entirely the
wrong thing to do. Bush blunders have weaken our
nation's good name and possible world standing.
Support the troops and only use them for REAL threats.
They should never be used to enrich the wealth of US
oil companies. Bring them home!!
* * * *
"Today I weep for my country. I have watched the
events of recent months with a heavy, heavy heart. No
more is the image of America one of a strong yet
benevolent peacekeeper."
- Sen. Robert C. Byrd
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