IDM Mailing Archive

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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:50:29 -0500 To: idm@hyperreal.org From: "Allen, Gordon" <gordona@innovaction.com> Subject: IDM D.J.s hi, are there any IDM D.J.s out there who beatmatch their records? i'd like to hear from some of you - your experiences, philosophies, etc. personally, i started out as an IDM 'crossfading' DJ, and later picked up beatmatching skills by buying a wackload of techno records. now i'm matching my IDM records, but haven't had that many opportunities to play this to a captive crowd. i think that IDM that's more electro or minimal techno-based would be the easiest to beatmatch, and to get people dancing. but i'd love to hear from someone who has thrown something really strange into their set, to hear if people responded or stopped and scratched their heads.

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My 0.02 - it's difficult to actually DJ this stuff and do it well (simple crossfades don't count in my book, even ambient DJ's will do more than that, layering and using effects and eq's), only a few folks I know of like Mixmaster Morris and DJ Lovegrove (Sonic Soul, DC) can pull it off on the technique tip and spin interesting records at the same time. From my own experience, it's kind of unrewarding to be an idm DJ in that you can't pull off a lot of the "tricks" that work so well with other styles...scratch-style mixing usually disturbs the flow of the track unless it's subtle, and doing stuff like dropping out the bass or tweaking the eq just isn't as effective as when you're working with bass-heavy, 4/4 rhythms. And while fluid beatmatching is prolly the best mixing style with this kind of music, it's often difficult because tracks have odd rhythms or sound so dissimilar it's nearly impossible to make'em blend well. On one hand, I love this music for that very reason and it's a challenge to spin it out. But on the other, it's hard to play idm to a crowd and get any kind of reaction other than a trainspotting neck craning over the decks. I kind of got jaded about all that a year or so ago, stopped buying as many straight-up idm records (the music also started to bore me), and playing more electro/techno/deep house sounds. Somewhat more engaging to actually DJ, and certainly more effective when you play it live to a crowd. So it's kind of a catch 22, some of the best music can be some of the most boring to spin as a DJ. Any other idm jocks (Lance, Teep, etc?) have opinions on this? _______________ Motormouthmedia 2525 Hyperion Ave. Suite One Los Angeles, CA 90027 fon 323.662.3865 fax 323.662.3844

On 20 Dec 99, Brock @ Motormouthmedia wrote re: Re: (idm) beatmatching etc.:

quoted 6 lines even more fulfilling is simply showing your appreciation by

> even more fulfilling is simply showing your appreciation by > dancing and showing the DJ that you're digging the track. That > kind of response is what makes hauling speaker stacks and 40-lb > flight cases around worthwhile as a DJ, and one of the reasons I > kind of switched up my style after spinning idm to seemingly > disinterested crowds..

Yes, I find this to be totally true - there are two types of DJ's (well, there are lots more than that, but for the sake of this ... ) those who actually please the crowd while keeping a certain integrity without stooping to the lowest common denominator (God forbid!), and then there are those who rejoice in clearing the dance floor by dropping hyper inaccessible obscure shit that only *they* can get off on. Little point to doing that if you're out playing to other people - you may as well sit in your bedroom with headphones on to hear what only YOU want to hear. I don't consider it 'selling out' by throwing Soft Cell's Tainted Love into a set, or even Basement Jaxx's Rendez-Vu - I do believe that people enjoy hearing something familiar that they can relate to, you can then go back to more experimental stuff after having lured them onto the floor.. when you find them drifting, play New Order's Blue Monday and see them flock back. It works :-) I * --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines From: "Brock @ Motormouthmedia" <bmotor@pacbell.net>

>From: "Brock @ Motormouthmedia" <bmotor@pacbell.net> >To: gordona@innovaction.com, idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: (idm) beatmatching etc. >Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999, 1:31 AM

quoted 44 lines Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:50:29 -0500

>Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:50:29 -0500 >To: idm@hyperreal.org >From: "Allen, Gordon" <gordona@innovaction.com> >Subject: IDM D.J.s > >hi, > >are there any IDM D.J.s out there who beatmatch their records? i'd like to >hear from some of you - your experiences, philosophies, etc. personally, i >started out as an IDM 'crossfading' DJ, and later picked up beatmatching >skills by buying a wackload of techno records. now i'm matching my IDM >records, but haven't had that many opportunities to play this to a captive >crowd. i think that IDM that's more electro or minimal techno-based would >be the easiest to beatmatch, and to get people dancing. but i'd love to >hear from someone who has thrown something really strange into their set, to >hear if people responded or stopped and scratched their heads. >> >> > >My 0.02 - it's difficult to actually DJ this stuff and do it well (simple >crossfades don't count in my book, even ambient DJ's will do more than that, >layering and using effects and eq's), only a few folks I know of like >Mixmaster Morris and DJ Lovegrove (Sonic Soul, DC) can pull it off on the >technique tip and spin interesting records at the same time. > >>From my own experience, it's kind of unrewarding to be an idm DJ in that you >can't pull off a lot of the "tricks" that work so well with other >styles...scratch-style mixing usually disturbs the flow of the track unless >it's subtle, and doing stuff like dropping out the bass or tweaking the eq >just isn't as effective as when you're working with bass-heavy, 4/4 rhythms. >And while fluid beatmatching is prolly the best mixing style with this kind >of music, it's often difficult because tracks have odd rhythms or sound so >dissimilar it's nearly impossible to make'em blend well. > >On one hand, I love this music for that very reason and it's a challenge to >spin it out. But on the other, it's hard to play idm to a crowd and get any >kind of reaction other than a trainspotting neck craning over the decks. I >kind of got jaded about all that a year or so ago, stopped buying as many >straight-up idm records (the music also started to bore me), and playing >more electro/techno/deep house sounds. Somewhat more engaging to actually >DJ, and certainly more effective when you play it live to a crowd. So it's >kind of a catch 22, some of the best music can be some of the most boring to >spin as a DJ. Any other idm jocks (Lance, Teep, etc?) have opinions on >this?

It *is* hard as hell to beatmatch IDM records, but I've found that good transitions can be achieved by seguing tracks that have similar synth/percussion/DSP sounds. I've done some sets with lots of Chocolate Industries, Skam, Schematic, Rephlex, Warp, Spymania, DHR, Force Inc and Mego releases and succeeded in getting a good, semi-seamless flow. That said, with IDM DJ sets, abrupt, fucked-up transitions can be rewarding, too. I'd rather hear several great tracks unbeatmatched than a perfectly beatmatched set of sterile trance or cheesy house. In IDM-land, trainspotting is the equivalent of getting dancers to raise their arms--though a few brave, nimble souls *can* shake it to this music. Dave Segal Managing Editor/Alternative Press Reviews/BPM/Reissue Redux/Origins Of Cool Secret Ions on WCSB Thursdays 9-11PM EST www.wcsb.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Hey Brock, actually, the good doctor fluff (my music partner) did this quite a bit...although the results are another story altogether... yes, it's quite an odd thing to try...i'm replying because i sit and listen to him do it all the bloody time... but, i even played around with his decks and had some fun with it... i went from an Autechre bit from Tri Repetae to a Gas track...and it was pretty much a crossfader thing...with some sample bits from an Orb thing(which was in turn sampled from a source unknown to me)...it sounded ok...but then again, i'm a guitarist...nowhere near any sort of DJ...i was just screwing around...but the whole thing sounded nice...even for me!! but i wanted to post to this as i have developed quite an ear for mixing over the last year...and DJ and i have talked a bit about the oddity of mixing IDM and such...Ambient is obviously the easiest of all to mix...i could even do real primitive ambient mixing...but the real ambient dj's take it to the next level (as Brock states regarding the sonic soul cats)...and that's something i can't do, obviously...again, i'm NOT any kind of DJ... but i also once mixed some strange sounds with a very uptempo Aphex electro thing once...and it sounded OK... well...just wanted to put in some words because it is an interesting topic... Brock, there's tons of IDM stuff that can be danced to...i've heard a lot...lots CANNOT "get any grooves on", but there are a lot of dancy idm tracks out there... Prof. V

quoted 35 lines From: "Brock @ Motormouthmedia" <bmotor@pacbell.net>

>From: "Brock @ Motormouthmedia" <bmotor@pacbell.net> >To: gordona@innovaction.com, idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: (idm) beatmatching etc. >Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:31:04 +0800 > > > > > >Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:50:29 -0500 >To: idm@hyperreal.org >From: "Allen, Gordon" <gordona@innovaction.com> >Subject: IDM D.J.s > >hi, > >are there any IDM D.J.s out there who beatmatch their records? i'd like to >hear from some of you - your experiences, philosophies, etc. personally, >i >started out as an IDM 'crossfading' DJ, and later picked up beatmatching >skills by buying a wackload of techno records. now i'm matching my IDM >records, but haven't had that many opportunities to play this to a captive >crowd. i think that IDM that's more electro or minimal techno-based would >be the easiest to beatmatch, and to get people dancing. but i'd love to >hear from someone who has thrown something really strange into their set, >to >hear if people responded or stopped and scratched their heads. > > > > > >My 0.02 - it's difficult to actually DJ this stuff and do it well (simple >crossfades don't count in my book, even ambient DJ's will do more than >that, >layering and using effects and eq's), only a few folks I know of like >Mixmaster Morris and DJ Lovegrove (Sonic Soul, DC) can pull it off on the >technique tip and spin interesting records at the same time. >

From my own experience, it's kind of unrewarding to be an idm DJ in that

quoted 35 lines you

>you >can't pull off a lot of the "tricks" that work so well with other >styles...scratch-style mixing usually disturbs the flow of the track unless >it's subtle, and doing stuff like dropping out the bass or tweaking the eq >just isn't as effective as when you're working with bass-heavy, 4/4 >rhythms. >And while fluid beatmatching is prolly the best mixing style with this kind >of music, it's often difficult because tracks have odd rhythms or sound so >dissimilar it's nearly impossible to make'em blend well. > >On one hand, I love this music for that very reason and it's a challenge to >spin it out. But on the other, it's hard to play idm to a crowd and get >any >kind of reaction other than a trainspotting neck craning over the decks. I >kind of got jaded about all that a year or so ago, stopped buying as many >straight-up idm records (the music also started to bore me), and playing >more electro/techno/deep house sounds. Somewhat more engaging to actually >DJ, and certainly more effective when you play it live to a crowd. So it's >kind of a catch 22, some of the best music can be some of the most boring >to >spin as a DJ. Any other idm jocks (Lance, Teep, etc?) have opinions on >this? > > > >_______________ >Motormouthmedia >2525 Hyperion Ave. >Suite One >Los Angeles, CA 90027 > >fon 323.662.3865 >fax 323.662.3844 > >

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"Brock @ Motormouthmedia" wrote:

quoted 5 lines My 0.02 - it's difficult to actually DJ this stuff and do it well (simple

> My 0.02 - it's difficult to actually DJ this stuff and do it well (simple > crossfades don't count in my book, even ambient DJ's will do more than that, > layering and using effects and eq's), only a few folks I know of like > Mixmaster Morris and DJ Lovegrove (Sonic Soul, DC) can pull it off on the > technique tip and spin interesting records at the same time.

When I first started djing, I though mixing artists like autechre, afx, squarepusher was just about impossible. Then when I finally learned how to beatmatch more straight ahead techno and jungle, I found that IDM wasn't that much harder, you just have to pay a bit more attention because things aren't always so straight forward. Also, people in IDM land are a bit more open to using strange time signatures, which always makes things really interesting. Nowdays, to me, mixing ae is as easy as mixing dave clark... The other thing that makes it a bit harder then your average house music is that the range of tempos that you'll come across is extreme. I've seen morris go smoothly from jungle to triphop to electro to super slow crunchy beats. Some of these tempo changes you can easily make (ie: triphop to jungle) and some you can't. That's when serious creative mixing comes into play. Don't be afraid to do things like move the pitch control while the records playing or go from 33 to 45 in a breakdown.

quoted 5 lines From my own experience, it's kind of unrewarding to be an idm DJ in that you

> From my own experience, it's kind of unrewarding to be an idm DJ in that you > can't pull off a lot of the "tricks" that work so well with other > styles...scratch-style mixing usually disturbs the flow of the track unless > it's subtle, and doing stuff like dropping out the bass or tweaking the eq > just isn't as effective as when you're working with bass-heavy, 4/4 rhythms.

Occasionally, I rather enjoy doing tricks with this kind of music, including cutting, scratching and going to town on the mixer (especially if it's a djm500). Also, I think it's pretty damn rewarding when you've got two crunchy/clicky/distorted/melodical tunes locked in and talking to each other.

quoted 3 lines And while fluid beatmatching is prolly the best mixing style with this kind

> And while fluid beatmatching is prolly the best mixing style with this kind > of music, it's often difficult because tracks have odd rhythms or sound so > dissimilar it's nearly impossible to make'em blend well.

Same as any other genre, some tunes work in the mix and some don't. That's the hard part: knowing what to mix/how to mix it and what not to mix/how to cheesebox it.

quoted 10 lines On one hand, I love this music for that very reason and it's a challenge to

> On one hand, I love this music for that very reason and it's a challenge to > spin it out. But on the other, it's hard to play idm to a crowd and get any > kind of reaction other than a trainspotting neck craning over the decks. I > kind of got jaded about all that a year or so ago, stopped buying as many > straight-up idm records (the music also started to bore me), and playing > more electro/techno/deep house sounds. Somewhat more engaging to actually > DJ, and certainly more effective when you play it live to a crowd. So it's > kind of a catch 22, some of the best music can be some of the most boring to > spin as a DJ. Any other idm jocks (Lance, Teep, etc?) have opinions on > this?

I'll agree with you. I used to buy 5:1 idm to everything else. Nowdays, I find it rare if I pick up something that would strictly fall under the heading 'IDM'. Straight ahead dance music can be more engaging to spin because you get more immediate feedback, in the form of dancing. But I still get more of a charge of playing ambient/downtempo/dub/etc because I'm a big stoner and I like it like that. :-) the other brock. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 29 lines From: "Brock @ Motormouthmedia" <bmotor@pacbell.net>

>From: "Brock @ Motormouthmedia" <bmotor@pacbell.net> >To: Professor Vast <dinobose@hotmail.com> >CC: idm <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: Re: (idm) beatmatching etc. >Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:40:20 +0800 > >---------- > >From: Professor Vast <dinobose@hotmail.com> > >To: bmotor@pacbell.net > >Subject: Re: (idm) beatmatching etc. > >Date: Tue, Dec 21, 1999, 6:21 AM > > > > > > Brock, there's tons of IDM stuff that can be danced to...i've heard a > > lot...lots CANNOT "get any grooves on", but there are a lot of dancy idm > > tracks out there... > >Dino - > >I'm with you all the way on this one, I can dance to Autechre all >night>long, weird shifting tectonic plates of sound are way more intriguing >than a>4/4 thump in the long run! But it just seems like 99% of folks >don't view>this as "danceable" music which makes it hard to get any kind of >cohesive>crowd response as a DJ, and the 1% that dig idm or the likes are >not the>types to get all sweaty on the dancefloor. So you end up with an >arms->crossed, trainspotting bunch that's closer to a rock show audience >than>anything I'd expect to see at a rave, club, or other dance-oriented >venue.

--This one's a bit long, but i think you all will get something good out of it...enjoy... --well, i used to be one of those "arms-crossed" people as i grew up an "organic" music purist...i hated electronic music...growing up a guitarist, it's easy to not like electronic stuff...it grew out of the fact that it was, in essence, easier to do elec. music...one tap of a button and you get a perfect note...whereas, with a guitar, it takes a lot more to get just a good note...so you see where i'm coming from.... --along the way, i got heavily into the Cure...they changed my mind completely towards accepting electronic music...i'm sure most of you know how much of an "IDM" and electro-ish, breakbeaty sound they really did have in that "lovecats/let's go to bed" days...also the Glove album...check out "perfect murder" from the Glove cd, and you'll know what i'm talking about...even "Carnage Visors"...Smith did that whole track with an old Boss dr-110...very electro/breakbeatish...Smith was very much into Bowie stuff that was done w/Eno and Fripp...so he was quite aware of "ambient" music as well...and to me Carnage Visors is very much an "ambient" idm kind of track...and also "all cats are grey" from the Faith cd...very ambient... --so this boils down to the fact that the cure changed my life very immensely in terms of my musical viewpoints... --that track "perfect murder" is very idm with ambient sounds all over...AND you can bloody well dance to it!! --let's not forget "mixed up" the cure songs turned into dance tracks by various UK dj's... --so after all this long-winded nonsense, what am i saying??? --YOU CAN DANCE TO IDM...NOT ALL, BUT A LOT OF IT...SO STOP GLARING WITH THOSE SNOBBY IDM LOOKS AND GET DOWN!!!!

quoted 11 lines If I could have two Xmas wishes, I'd wish that - 1) the average punter

>If I could have two Xmas wishes, I'd wish that - 1) the average punter >was>more open-minded as far as what they'd dance to, and 2) the average idm >fan>would loosen up a bit and actually dance to the music they love rather >than>stand back and watch everyone else. I consider it a compliment when >people>trainspot and ask you what you're playing, but even more fulfilling >is>simply showing your appreciation by dancing and showing the DJ that >you're>digging the track. That kind of response is what makes hauling >speaker>stacks and 40-lb flight cases around worthwhile as a DJ, and one of >the >reasons I kind of switched up my style after spinning idm to >seemingly>disinterested crowds...Brock

--I can't add anything to this as it's right on with what i think... Glad to know that i'm not the only "non-arm-crossing" idm fan around...thanks mr. b... Now go slap on some groovy aphex and enjoy your bloody selves and stop trying to outdo each other with all the ridiculous trivialities of this music...don't get me wrong, i'm a studied musician, and i can read/write music, identify bizarro time signatures and all that...but there came a time when all of that info is synthesized instantly in thought and all that matters is the quality of what i'm hearing...regardless of style or whatever... Dino/Prof. V Professor Vast Expansion Research-Liquid Lab Scientific Outpost-Vulcan Solar System Resident Analog Architects: Prof. Vast-Expansion Specialist and Spacerock demolitionist Dr. Fluff-Rotation Specialist ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Nice topic,

quoted 4 lines If I could have two Xmas wishes, I'd wish that - 1) the average punter was

>If I could have two Xmas wishes, I'd wish that - 1) the average punter was >more open-minded as far as what they'd dance to, and 2) the average idm fan >would loosen up a bit and actually dance to the music they love rather than >stand back and watch everyone else.

There is a 1.5 though; an in between in terms of audience and material. I now buy 100% of 4/4 IDM tracks of diverse artists, cause: 1) It beatmatches well. 2) It makes perfect head nodding fodder when im home minding my business. 3) Say you spin right after a generic House or Techno type, The average punter will _continue_ to dance, even though he might go: "there is something not quite right about all this". 4) And yes some chicks dig it. List of IDM artists/labels that beatmatches fairly well: Mostly all german minimal by the likes of Mike Ink and Brinkmann. Nearly everything on Profan,Auftrieb,Kompakt,Freiland,MaxErnst and Chain Reaction. Folks like Grain, Rapaccioli, Monolake and even Pan_sonic: especially on Mika's Tekonivel Moniker (my all time favorite) You can easily find IDM tracks that could bring a House or Trance fan to get interested in a more <i>intelligent</i> type of music. For a House guy: you could give him anything on Kompakt, which is _very_ borderline, or similarily, one would recommend "Auftrieb09 - Loikum1" to _any_ acid lover. And yes you can D on Autechre! -remix: V/A's 8 on FATCAT -remix: Mark Broom - Angie is a choplifter (BTW If anyone has a copy to spare of that one I would pay nice$$ Some guy on this list doesnt want to get rid of his :) All these are genuine IDM material, and shoulnt be snobed by anyone as just being dummy 4 to the floor.

quoted 7 lines I consider it a compliment when people

>I consider it a compliment when people >trainspot and ask you what you're playing, but even more fulfilling is >simply showing your appreciation by dancing and showing the DJ that you're >digging the track. That kind of response is what makes hauling speaker >stacks and 40-lb flight cases around worthwhile as a DJ, and one of the >reasons I kind of switched up my style after spinning idm to seemingly >disinterested crowds...Brock

Don't fall into despair! There is something to do but don't go all the way too fast! Remember, many IDM tracks you like were built slowly inside you, so think about people who never were exposed to that kind of music before. -- Fleisch while(1)fork(); --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 7 lines Don't fall into despair!

> >Don't fall into despair! >There is something to do but don't go all the way too fast! >Remember, many IDM tracks you like were built slowly inside you, >so think about people who never were exposed to that kind of music >before. >

And now for even more fun : how to organize the "perfect idm party" : 1 - Team up with one of your friend, unless you want to spin all night, bring 100 records, and not drink too much ( although I know people whom mixing/beatmatching skills get better when they can't walk straight :). Have one with your usual Warp/Skam/Musik Aus Strom/Schematic/etc... ( aka me ) and the other with the Brinkmann/Voigt/etc .. ( aka David ). 2 - Start with tracks for head-nodding while people arrive, start to drink, talk to each other. After some time, people will want to dance ( unless you have a hardcore-idm crowd, better have much beer if this is the case ;), so move on with some electro-ish stuff and build from there to get at some point where it'll be easy for your friend to mix in ( unless you like to finish your set with some unmixable/out-of-nowhere track, like some other guy on this list like to do :) 3 - Hit them with that Koln minimal thing... This has been tested a few times and seems to be working quite right and it even gets better each time.

quoted 3 lines -remix: Mark Broom - Angie is a choplifter

>-remix: Mark Broom - Angie is a choplifter >(BTW If anyone has a copy to spare of that one I would pay nice$$ > Some guy on this list doesnt want to get rid of his :)

Seb ( aka Some guy on this list ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Irene McC" <substar@iafrica.com> wrote:

quoted 6 lines I don't consider it 'selling out' by throwing Soft Cell's Tainted Love

>I don't consider it 'selling out' by throwing Soft Cell's Tainted Love >into a set, or even Basement Jaxx's Rendez-Vu - I do believe that >people enjoy hearing something familiar that they can relate to, you >can then go back to more experimental stuff after having lured them >onto the floor.. when you find them drifting, play New Order's Blue >Monday and see them flock back. It works :-)

very true - first itme i played out in a club i was lucky enough to be playing before a live pa by speedy j - blue monday went down a storm - mixed 'don't go' by yazoo into it followed by 'clear' by cybotron /// yazoo were great weren't they? did they only put out 2 albums or am i missing some? cheers! simon ps // anyone got any mix-tapes by i-f ? seen him play at club 69 [glasgow] and also here at phunk city [dublin] - great stuff both times, from the old to the new all night - all fresh - best dj i've heard yet for electro stuff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org