IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 5 lines The worst IDM show i've been to was Autechre. They blantantly, and

>The worst IDM show i've been to was Autechre. They blantantly, and >intentionally disregard the presence of an audience for whatever reason. No >visuals are present, and the music is reduced to a totally undanceable, and >often painful form. It is boring and insulting. Anyone who can claim they are >exciting obviously doesnt get out much.

the use of twenty or so tea-lights (stage props or what?!) to create an ambience just didn't cut it!!

quoted 2 lines The best IDM show i've been to was Mouse on Mars. Why? Because they cared a

>The best IDM show i've been to was Mouse on Mars. Why? Because they cared a >lot about the audience!

RABBIT IN THE MOON cared a lot about their audience i'd say :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

hi, i'm working on an article about IDM, i'm peruvian so i've never had the chance to be on a live show. that kind of music it's new here, there's just a few people who kows about it and who listens to it, so there's no IDM scene around here, and therefore they are no concerts. so if anyone could describe me how it's a typical live show, considering that most of IDM it's computer music, i'll be very gratefull. i'll like to know, also, how does the musicians and the audience seems to behavior, seeing it form a sociological perspective. thak you again. cheers _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 14 lines hi, i'm working on an article about IDM, i'm peruvian so i've

> hi, i'm working on an article about IDM, i'm peruvian so i've > never had the > chance to be on a live show. that kind of music it's new here, > there's just > a few people who kows about it and who listens to it, so there's no IDM > scene around here, and therefore they are no concerts. so if anyone could > describe me how it's a typical live show, considering that most > of IDM it's > computer music, i'll be very gratefull. i'll like to know, also, how does > the musicians and the audience seems to behavior, seeing it form a > sociological perspective. > thak you again. > cheers >

typical IDM shows in Montreal : Set up is done in advance, mostly PC's with controllers and a couple of turntables. Show starts at around 9-ish PM, with a couple of DJ's playing more/less "intellectual" IDM/Electro/BreakBeat, there's no dancing yet! At around 11-ish, the first act comes on stage, plays with his computer for 30-45 minutes, then the second act comes, plays with his computer, and with some other gizmo; people start to dance, wooble, stand-up and crowd the dance floor in front of the stage ( or behind ) At around 12:30-1:00 ( AM ) the main act comes on stage, there's a huge roar from the crowd when they play the first song they think they recognize (!), and if it danceable, people will dance. They play with their computer, twiddle some controllers and other gizmos. This lasts up to an hour. Then some more DJ's, usually will bring the tempo up a notch or two, and style will change to something more danceable and, depending on the venue, the show will end at around 3:00AM. There also can be some projections, live video mixing ( ala Rechenzentrum ) or live mixing of winamp viz plugin (!!!); but I never really seen anything that was good enough for me to look at! and usually, they are so bad that they spend the night rebooting their Mac/PC or messing around with the software!!! Local Performers will usually hang with friends and the rest of the crowd before their act, and will be friendly with the crowd. Out-of Towners, well, that depends, either they come-in, play, then leave; happens if they are on a tour with shows everydays. but if they are booked for the show, they will hang around, more so if there's more than one big act playing that night; that happend last summer when Rechenzentrum and Goem were here at Mutek , they stayed the whole time, and went at the different shows, as spectators. Max. --- Maximilien Lincourt Max At Toon Boom Dot Com Codito Ergo Sum --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well, I've been feeling pretty jaded about this stuf lately. Most of the time, in my experience, there is someone behind a laptop doing god- knows-what or messing around with faders or eq on their mixer. That stuff is not fun to watch. However, I don't have much of a problem with this if its in a kind of dance oriented atmosphere. A lof of the time I find that the performer doesn't drop enough of a hook or beat for dancing to happen. Either that or its just sort of ambient stuff. In the case of ambient stuff, I can deal with it sometimes if I have a comfortable place to sit down and its especially nice if there are some decent visual projections. However, experience has taught me that I get really tired of those kind of things if I can't sit down. Maybe its because I'm flat-footed and my feet get sore easily or maybe its because I'd much rather listen to that kind of stuff on headphones in the comfort of my room rather than standing often without breathing space. But then there is the upside of live IDM. Acts like Matmos and Mouse on Mars that bring in live instruments to mix with their laptops. For me, this is the kind of thing I'd like to see more of. There just always seems to be more energy in these shows. Laptops just have a very alienating nature. The person HAS to stare directly into their screen. It's as if they are permanently distracted from the audience they are performing for. With a guitar or keyboard, most of the time people don't have to keep their eyes on what their hands are doing, but I've never seen someone using a laptop like this. And its not even the case that people playing traditional instruments are always or ever engaging the audience with their face or otherwise, but its still a lot different from the laptop performer who might as well be alone in a room with their laptops. Which is another thing: interplay. Another thing acts like Matmos and MoM have going for them. And the sense of spontanaity. Alright... sorry if that rant wasn't to cohesive, but I hope some of these thoughts might lead to further exploration in your article. -Aaron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rafael U." <rafredy@hotmail.com> Date: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:03 pm Subject: [idm] IDM concerts

quoted 29 lines hi, i'm working on an article about IDM, i'm peruvian so i've

> hi, i'm working on an article about IDM, i'm peruvian so i've > never had the > chance to be on a live show. that kind of music it's new here, > there's just > a few people who kows about it and who listens to it, so there's > no IDM > scene around here, and therefore they are no concerts. so if > anyone could > describe me how it's a typical live show, considering that most of > IDM it's > computer music, i'll be very gratefull. i'll like to know, also, > how does > the musicians and the audience seems to behavior, seeing it form a > sociological perspective. > thak you again. > cheers > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus > fotos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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I just played a laptop show last night and I agree with you. Laptop shows are a little rediculous to watch and I personally feel rediculous doing them. There is definately something to be said for live performance. In order for a show to be a truly live performance there must be some kind of engaging performance for the audience. Sitting in front of a laptop is not very engaging. Aaron's mentioning of Mouse on Mars and Matmos are very appropriate examples of what an engaging show can be like when performing in the experimental electronic realm of music. I think people will get tired of the whole laptop gimmick after a while.

quoted 83 lines From: Aaron D Meyers <adm226@nyu.edu>

>From: Aaron D Meyers <adm226@nyu.edu> >To: "Rafael U." <rafredy@hotmail.com>, idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] IDM concerts >Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:28:29 -0400 > >Well, I've been feeling pretty jaded about this stuf lately. Most of >the time, in my experience, there is someone behind a laptop doing god- >knows-what or messing around with faders or eq on their mixer. That >stuff is not fun to watch. However, I don't have much of a problem >with this if its in a kind of dance oriented atmosphere. > >A lof of the time I find that the performer doesn't drop enough of a >hook or beat for dancing to happen. Either that or its just sort of >ambient stuff. In the case of ambient stuff, I can deal with it >sometimes if I have a comfortable place to sit down and its especially >nice if there are some decent visual projections. However, experience >has taught me that I get really tired of those kind of things if I >can't sit down. Maybe its because I'm flat-footed and my feet get sore >easily or maybe its because I'd much rather listen to that kind of >stuff on headphones in the comfort of my room rather than standing >often without breathing space. > >But then there is the upside of live IDM. Acts like Matmos and Mouse >on Mars that bring in live instruments to mix with their laptops. For >me, this is the kind of thing I'd like to see more of. There just >always seems to be more energy in these shows. Laptops just have a >very alienating nature. The person HAS to stare directly into their >screen. It's as if they are permanently distracted from the audience >they are performing for. With a guitar or keyboard, most of the time >people don't have to keep their eyes on what their hands are doing, but >I've never seen someone using a laptop like this. And its not even the >case that people playing traditional instruments are always or ever >engaging the audience with their face or otherwise, but its still a lot >different from the laptop performer who might as well be alone in a >room with their laptops. > >Which is another thing: interplay. Another thing acts like Matmos and >MoM have going for them. And the sense of spontanaity. Alright... >sorry if that rant wasn't to cohesive, but I hope some of these >thoughts might lead to further exploration in your article. > >-Aaron > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Rafael U." <rafredy@hotmail.com> >Date: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:03 pm >Subject: [idm] IDM concerts > > > hi, i'm working on an article about IDM, i'm peruvian so i've > > never had the > > chance to be on a live show. that kind of music it's new here, > > there's just > > a few people who kows about it and who listens to it, so there's > > no IDM > > scene around here, and therefore they are no concerts. so if > > anyone could > > describe me how it's a typical live show, considering that most of > > IDM it's > > computer music, i'll be very gratefull. i'll like to know, also, > > how does > > the musicians and the audience seems to behavior, seeing it form a > > sociological perspective. > > thak you again. > > cheers > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus > > fotos: > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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Hello, Also played a laptop show last night but people seemed to dig it. One thing I've learned is that, if you're into you're own music - and it compells you to move- then people will generally do the same, or at least enjoy watching you more. When I play, I fucking freakout because I like what I do. It's for me, and if others want to rock out, then they can. A lame laptop show is just as bad as a lame metal band with explosives (ok, maybe not...) but my point is that a bad show will alwyas be bad whatever the category. Donna www.cockrockdisco.com

quoted 108 lines I just played a laptop show last night and I agree with you. Laptop shows

> >I just played a laptop show last night and I agree with you. Laptop shows >are a little rediculous to watch and I personally feel rediculous doing >them. There is definately something to be said for live performance. In >order for a show to be a truly live performance there must be some kind of >engaging performance for the audience. Sitting in front of a laptop is not >very engaging. Aaron's mentioning of Mouse on Mars and Matmos are very >appropriate examples of what an engaging show can be like when performing >in >the experimental electronic realm of music. I think people will get tired >of >the whole laptop gimmick after a while. > > >>From: Aaron D Meyers <adm226@nyu.edu> >>To: "Rafael U." <rafredy@hotmail.com>, idm@hyperreal.org >>Subject: Re: [idm] IDM concerts >>Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:28:29 -0400 >> >>Well, I've been feeling pretty jaded about this stuf lately. Most of >>the time, in my experience, there is someone behind a laptop doing god- >>knows-what or messing around with faders or eq on their mixer. That >>stuff is not fun to watch. However, I don't have much of a problem >>with this if its in a kind of dance oriented atmosphere. >> >>A lof of the time I find that the performer doesn't drop enough of a >>hook or beat for dancing to happen. Either that or its just sort of >>ambient stuff. In the case of ambient stuff, I can deal with it >>sometimes if I have a comfortable place to sit down and its especially >>nice if there are some decent visual projections. However, experience >>has taught me that I get really tired of those kind of things if I >>can't sit down. Maybe its because I'm flat-footed and my feet get sore >>easily or maybe its because I'd much rather listen to that kind of >>stuff on headphones in the comfort of my room rather than standing >>often without breathing space. >> >>But then there is the upside of live IDM. Acts like Matmos and Mouse >>on Mars that bring in live instruments to mix with their laptops. For >>me, this is the kind of thing I'd like to see more of. There just >>always seems to be more energy in these shows. Laptops just have a >>very alienating nature. The person HAS to stare directly into their >>screen. It's as if they are permanently distracted from the audience >>they are performing for. With a guitar or keyboard, most of the time >>people don't have to keep their eyes on what their hands are doing, but >>I've never seen someone using a laptop like this. And its not even the >>case that people playing traditional instruments are always or ever >>engaging the audience with their face or otherwise, but its still a lot >>different from the laptop performer who might as well be alone in a >>room with their laptops. >> >>Which is another thing: interplay. Another thing acts like Matmos and >>MoM have going for them. And the sense of spontanaity. Alright... >>sorry if that rant wasn't to cohesive, but I hope some of these >>thoughts might lead to further exploration in your article. >> >>-Aaron >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Rafael U." <rafredy@hotmail.com> >>Date: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:03 pm >>Subject: [idm] IDM concerts >> >> > hi, i'm working on an article about IDM, i'm peruvian so i've >> > never had the >> > chance to be on a live show. that kind of music it's new here, >> > there's just >> > a few people who kows about it and who listens to it, so there's >> > no IDM >> > scene around here, and therefore they are no concerts. so if >> > anyone could >> > describe me how it's a typical live show, considering that most of >> > IDM it's >> > computer music, i'll be very gratefull. i'll like to know, also, >> > how does >> > the musicians and the audience seems to behavior, seeing it form a >> > sociological perspective. >> > thak you again. >> > cheers >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus >> > fotos: >> > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -- >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >> > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >> > >> > >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >> > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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well the first thing motherfuckers need to do is kick the chair off to the side, stand up and shake ass a little. theres nothing more boring than lookiing at someone who looks like theyre filing their taxes online live on stage.. throw food at the audience. wear some devil horns and hide underneath your table...get some strippers..whatever. just do something more entertaining than sitting. if im close to home i like to bring as much outboard gear as possible..not a particular fan of software synths really. i mean.look at orbital. you may not like them and theyre probably not doing jack dick balls up there but just LOOK at all that fuckin gear. gear at a live show makes me want to touch myself. On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, donna summer wrote:

quoted 136 lines Hello,

> Hello, > Also played a laptop show last night but people seemed to dig it. One thing > I've learned is that, if you're into you're own music - and it compells you > to move- then people will generally do the same, or at least enjoy watching > you more. When I play, I fucking freakout because I like what I do. It's > for me, and if others want to rock out, then they can. > > A lame laptop show is just as bad as a lame metal band with explosives (ok, > maybe not...) but my point is that a bad show will alwyas be bad whatever > the category. > > Donna > www.cockrockdisco.com > > > > > > >I just played a laptop show last night and I agree with you. Laptop shows > >are a little rediculous to watch and I personally feel rediculous doing > >them. There is definately something to be said for live performance. In > >order for a show to be a truly live performance there must be some kind of > >engaging performance for the audience. Sitting in front of a laptop is not > >very engaging. Aaron's mentioning of Mouse on Mars and Matmos are very > >appropriate examples of what an engaging show can be like when performing > >in > >the experimental electronic realm of music. I think people will get tired > >of > >the whole laptop gimmick after a while. > > > > > >>From: Aaron D Meyers <adm226@nyu.edu> > >>To: "Rafael U." <rafredy@hotmail.com>, idm@hyperreal.org > >>Subject: Re: [idm] IDM concerts > >>Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:28:29 -0400 > >> > >>Well, I've been feeling pretty jaded about this stuf lately. Most of > >>the time, in my experience, there is someone behind a laptop doing god- > >>knows-what or messing around with faders or eq on their mixer. That > >>stuff is not fun to watch. However, I don't have much of a problem > >>with this if its in a kind of dance oriented atmosphere. > >> > >>A lof of the time I find that the performer doesn't drop enough of a > >>hook or beat for dancing to happen. Either that or its just sort of > >>ambient stuff. In the case of ambient stuff, I can deal with it > >>sometimes if I have a comfortable place to sit down and its especially > >>nice if there are some decent visual projections. However, experience > >>has taught me that I get really tired of those kind of things if I > >>can't sit down. Maybe its because I'm flat-footed and my feet get sore > >>easily or maybe its because I'd much rather listen to that kind of > >>stuff on headphones in the comfort of my room rather than standing > >>often without breathing space. > >> > >>But then there is the upside of live IDM. Acts like Matmos and Mouse > >>on Mars that bring in live instruments to mix with their laptops. For > >>me, this is the kind of thing I'd like to see more of. There just > >>always seems to be more energy in these shows. Laptops just have a > >>very alienating nature. The person HAS to stare directly into their > >>screen. It's as if they are permanently distracted from the audience > >>they are performing for. With a guitar or keyboard, most of the time > >>people don't have to keep their eyes on what their hands are doing, but > >>I've never seen someone using a laptop like this. And its not even the > >>case that people playing traditional instruments are always or ever > >>engaging the audience with their face or otherwise, but its still a lot > >>different from the laptop performer who might as well be alone in a > >>room with their laptops. > >> > >>Which is another thing: interplay. Another thing acts like Matmos and > >>MoM have going for them. And the sense of spontanaity. Alright... > >>sorry if that rant wasn't to cohesive, but I hope some of these > >>thoughts might lead to further exploration in your article. > >> > >>-Aaron > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Rafael U." <rafredy@hotmail.com> > >>Date: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:03 pm > >>Subject: [idm] IDM concerts > >> > >> > hi, i'm working on an article about IDM, i'm peruvian so i've > >> > never had the > >> > chance to be on a live show. that kind of music it's new here, > >> > there's just > >> > a few people who kows about it and who listens to it, so there's > >> > no IDM > >> > scene around here, and therefore they are no concerts. so if > >> > anyone could > >> > describe me how it's a typical live show, considering that most of > >> > IDM it's > >> > computer music, i'll be very gratefull. i'll like to know, also, > >> > how does > >> > the musicians and the audience seems to behavior, seeing it form a > >> > sociological perspective. > >> > thak you again. > >> > cheers > >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________ > >> > MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus > >> > fotos: > >> > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > -- > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > >>For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >> > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > >http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Department of Coffee Procurement wrote:

quoted 11 lines well the first thing motherfuckers need to do is kick the chair off to

> well the first thing motherfuckers need to do is kick the chair off to > the side, stand up and shake ass a little. theres nothing more boring > than lookiing at someone who looks like theyre filing their taxes online > live on stage.. throw food at the audience. wear some devil horns and > hide underneath your table...get some strippers..whatever. just do > something more entertaining than sitting. if im close to home i like to > bring as much outboard gear as possible..not a particular fan of software > synths really. i mean.look at orbital. you may not like them and theyre > probably not doing jack dick balls up there but just LOOK at all that > fuckin gear. gear at a live show makes me want to touch myself. >

i totally agree here. the other night i went to see a certain artist hoping to see a really good show, don't get me wrong the music was good, but i was just a little dissapointed by the methods he used to perform live. It was pretty much him set up with some sort of portable studio and everything was kinda bussed out to other mixers. he had a laptop and there were some synths he brought which the artist before him used a little. At first i was like ok, (judging from the ableton sticker on the laptop) he's using some audio sequencing program as well as a midi sequencer for the synths. neither. the laptop had loaded a bunch of one-shot samples, i was totally pissed, although the music was good, but i could have done it at home with his album and a large pair of speakers. -- carcus http://www.carcus.net/ :random sig content: Band a Minute Quote of the day: Tortoise I like Miles Davis. Buy my 30 different remix records. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 03:41:13PM -0400, donna summer wrote:

quoted 10 lines Hello,

> Hello, > Also played a laptop show last night but people seemed to dig it. One thing > I've learned is that, if you're into you're own music - and it compells you > to move- then people will generally do the same, or at least enjoy watching > you more. When I play, I fucking freakout because I like what I do. It's > for me, and if others want to rock out, then they can. > > A lame laptop show is just as bad as a lame metal band with explosives (ok, > maybe not...) but my point is that a bad show will alwyas be bad whatever > the category.

I don't think a laptop is going to be lame because it is a laptop show. I saw Oval, just standing behind his computer, and it was a great "performance". Farmers Manual, who I love on record, were a great disapointment, however the setting was almost identical. A laptop show does not mean *no* setting, for instance when Fennesz/O'Rourke/Rehberg played in Paris, there was a very interesting -- and minimal -- stage setting (a large, bare desk, and the three guys standing behind it playing their laptop). One interesting thing is that "live performace", as in a bunch of guys rocking out on stage, does not necessarily mean fresh performance. A few months ago, Michael Northam played a piece which had been made the previous week, I find this more spontaneous than a rock band playing the same tunes over and over every night for weeks on end... Julien --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines I've learned is that, if you're into you're own music - and it compells

>I've learned is that, if you're into you're own music - and it compells >you to move- then people will generally do the same, or at least enjoy >watching you more. When I play, I fucking freakout because I like what >I

do. It's for me, and if others want to rock out, then they can. There are different schools of thought on this. I personally will often times during a performance close my eyes and turn my full attention to the music. There could be a stage show comparable to Janet Jackson or Pink Floyd and it just doesn't make a difference to me. I'm remembering the Autechre show from a year ago in LA. Mid-size theatre, jam packed with sweaty people, and no illumination outside of the glare from the laptop screens behind which Sean and Rob were crouched and out of sight. None of that mattered. It was superior music, and therefore a superior show. Exceptions can be made with performance art type artists like Skinny Puppy or Crash Worship or that band who opened up for Books on Tape a couple weeks ago here in LA and as part of their show they made peanut butter and jelly sandwiches while they sang and passed them out to the crowd.

on 4/18/02 12:50 PM, Albers, Brian at BAlbers@PremiereRadio.com scrawled:

quoted 6 lines Exceptions can be made with performance art type artists like Skinny Puppy

> > Exceptions can be made with performance art type artists like Skinny Puppy > or Crash Worship or that band who opened up for Books on Tape a couple weeks > ago here in LA and as part of their show they made peanut butter and jelly > sandwiches while they sang and passed them out to the crowd. >

Hey.. that sounds like chaki. That is nothing compared to this.. <snip> after the concert, the stage is left to the cooks who then work the instruments into a tasty vegetable soup which the audience and musicians consume together. the concert's audience thereby has the possibility of once again enjoying what they have just heard, examining any remaining instruments more closely and conversing with the musicians... that's from the mission statement of the Viennese vegetable orchestra more at http://www.gemueseorchester.org/ I agree with Brian's comments about going out to listen and little else. I really don't know what the point of the other whiny comments about how "visually engaging" a show delivered by a performer playing on a laptop is or isn't. Miles Davis used to play with his back to the crowd half the time and he took heat for that.. this argument isn't new. Some artists play with the crowd, others to them.. no difference to me really. I'd rather have a musician stare blankly at the audience and play their heart out then get caught up in onstage campy rockstar games (i.e... peaches). ~g http://www.laiad.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well, based on what I said before, I wasn't really talking about specifically "visually" engaging. I was talking about engaging the audience at all. Miles Davis is probably the worst example you could come up with. First, there were some politics behind the whole back to the crowd thing. But the stuff he played out of his trumpet was so much more spontaneous and not mediated by something as encumbering as a laptop screen and software knobs adjusting parameters on an oscillator or whatnot. And he had a whole band playing pretty freely too. Whereas, laptop guy is alienating people through his laptop screen by necessity of the mechanics of the "instrument" he's playing. I mean, the greatest jazz improvisers can practically speak through their instruments (even with their back turned to the audience). Have you ever seen a laptop performer that could really speak through his laptop in a SPONTANEOUS way? And as far as visually engaging goes, I don't need a performer to wink at me or any shit like that. I don't know. Its complicated so I can only go with my gut on this. And yea, as far as Brian's point goes... listening is great, but why should I pay $10 and be uncomfortable when the listening experience is better in every way (in my experience) at home with headphones. -Aaron

quoted 25 lines I agree with Brian's comments about going out to listen and little

> I agree with Brian's comments about going out to listen and little > else. I > really don't know what the point of the other whiny comments about how > "visually engaging" a show delivered by a performer playing on a > laptop is > or isn't. Miles Davis used to play with his back to the crowd > half the time > and he took heat for that.. this argument isn't new. Some > artists play > with the crowd, others to them.. no difference to me really. I'd > ratherhave a musician stare blankly at the audience and play their > heart out then > get caught up in onstage campy rockstar games (i.e... peaches). > > ~g > http://www.laiad.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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on 4/18/02 3:43 PM, Aaron D Meyers at adm226@nyu.edu scrawled:

quoted 4 lines instruments (even with their back turned to the audience). Have you

> instruments (even with their back turned to the audience). Have you > ever seen a laptop performer that could really speak through his laptop > in a SPONTANEOUS way? >

Only if trashing a laptop counts. I think comparing electronic musicians performance styles to the improvisation of jazz artists is kind of a dead end. To say nothing of the issue of interface, lots of jazz cats have been playing their weapon of choice for 20-30-40 years and the software the average electronic musician uses has been out for what; 5 years? I think we are talking about altogether different beasts. For the record, I expect that I was just as elated with the autechre show I caught in Toronto last spring as I would have been to check out Ornette Coleman & co. at the five spot in 1959. I really do understand where you are coming from as I have been listening to lots of looser music of late for this very reason. It will be interesting to see what kind of interfaces are developed to address your concerns though..

quoted 6 lines only go with my gut on this. And yea, as far as Brian's point goes...

> > only go with my gut on this. And yea, as far as Brian's point goes... > listening is great, but why should I pay $10 and be uncomfortable when > the listening experience is better in every way (in my experience) at > home with headphones. >

Good point. I don't go to many shows these days for that very reason. ~g --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines listening is great, but why should I pay $10 and be uncomfortable when

> listening is great, but why should I pay $10 and be uncomfortable when > the listening experience is better in every way (in my experience) at > home with headphones.

As someone curating shows of experimental -- as often as not laptop-based -- electronic music and sound art, this is a question that vexes and perplexes me. One answer I've commited myself to is to make the listening space as comfortable as possible -- in our case, we put out a lot of pillows and futons on a clean floor so everyone can sprawl and sit -- no standing -- with some chairs along the back. Relative to home/headphone listening, I think there are some benefits to 'live' shows, namely: community, sound quality, and attention. Live shows are more than listening experiences -- they're social experiences: opportunities to hang with friends, meet people with similar interests, talk shop, and in our little niche scene, actually talk with the artists -- all things I value at > $10. Sound quality ... well that depends on your home system; but some of the shows I've put on have used a serious PA with sub cabinets to full effect, literally moving the body with the sound -- something that you're just not going to get at home unless you're lucky. It's also nice to offer multiple speaker arrays to fill the space, even without surround mixing. But some of the work we've had presented is built around placing different sound-makers (boomboxes? crickets?) around the space, too. (I'm not knocking the subtle, personal transportation of headphone listening -- most of my CDs say 'please use headphones') Finally -- and I put a lot of weight on this -- is *attention*. My own experience is that even with the best intentions, it's easy to be distracted while listening at home -- especially if I can grab a book and try to double task. I think there's something inherently attention focusing about being at a concert or show -- even if your mind wanders, the paradigm I follow dictates that I don't read, check email, chat -- I listen. Sure you can still space out, but there's some mental weight behind the fact that you've gotten up and gone out somewhere to LISTEN, that makes you do it. This is all much on mind since the show i'm hosting tommorow night is taking things in a new direction for me, and I'm really curious to see if it comes off -- it's a show of 'tape music', prepared compositions. We'll have good speakers (hopefully a quad system plus 4 pair house speakers), so the sound will be better than most can muster at home -- but I *really* don't know if people will come out for, or be satisfied with, a show that's devoid of "performance". I'm going to try to speak a bit to this stuff up front, and ask the artists to say a few words about their work, in hopes of steering expectations. I'll report back post-facto... ... Incidentally, there's a wider issue I have with performance in the electronic music world: that our notions of performance rhetoric seem strongly grounded in the rock/punk or DJ scenes. Stand in a crowd, face the performer, watch them run their motor-program of behaviors for you... Is that REALLY what's interesting (or should be) with this kind of music? I recently discussed with someone how in this genre especially, 95% of the work is usually done in the preparation -- building those patches, preparing those samples, programming the sequencers, soldering the triggers, etc. etc. etc. What the audience gets to see 'performed' is usually (not always I grant) a scripted -- may I say, canned -- sequence. So why not go the last mile and relax our expectations for that 5%? Build new expectations for what composers/musicians in these genres will actually DO for you in a situation that is already offering benefits differentiating it from at-home CD listening (say)? (Disclaimer -- of course, you could argue that a band going through a set is doing the same thing; all the work went into composition, rehearsal, etc... or argue, the improv seen offers a different conceptual model of how effort is broken down, based on refinement of skills that are actualized in a moment of feedback and intuition... but stay with me for a moment...) (Anyone remember Robert Fripp's 'zen and the art of guitar' column?) After all this thread has emphasized how it certainly doesn't captivate an audience when the performative behavior is knob twiddling. Well, what are the alternatives? Other than 'unnecessary' dramatization and histronics unrelated to the production of sound? (disclaimer -- I realize some performances are just as much about those aspects... fine!) Musing on use of expressive physical controllers ... I've seen some amazing performances built on specific physical or acoustic processes -- mic'd objects, extended/destroyed instruments and toys, custom MIDI controllers -- but nothing that's a universal or even widely applicable solution, at least not yet. Especially because there's such a premium placed on novelty -- if Atau Tanaka or Stellarc's done some biometric control of media via MAX/MSP, what will you say when I get up and do it? "Derivative" or "unoriginal" maybe. Or maybe not, perhaps the best universal MIDI controllers (say) will evolve in a way that lets people see them as simple instruments to individual vision -- like a guitar, no one thinks Fred Firth is "imitating" Les Paul because he uses a guitar, after all. But we're not there yet. Yet plenty of this music is not well-suited to demonstrative, physical control -- it's too precise, too layered, there are too many factors evolving in parallel. And when we can fluidly and well-control the parameters we're interested in, the cause and effect are often either too loosely coupled, or not obvious enough to the audience to satisfy (though there's always hope for audience education...). Hmmm. And you know, I don't want to play the keyboard -- laptop or roland. ... So my own thoughts are bent these days to trying to find a new context for bringing experimental music/sound to an audience -- beyond 'performance' like discussed above, and also beyond the other limiting categories (and their own baggage): 'installation works' in pristine white Art galleries; academic concerts ghettoized to contemporary music audiences; and... CDs and web-distribution. Not that any of those should, can, will be condemned or dismissed -- I just want to find a new model, a new community structure for educating people and bringing work to the world... Soundwalks are a good idea. Interactive sound installations in unexpected locations are a good idea. Weird music concerts in 'straight' venues helps... We'll see. Uh, I mean, hear. ... Boy, I guess I needed to get that all out! Apology for the rambling gamboling rant, but it sure felt good to type... Best, aaron ghede@well.com http://www.quietamerican.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

This is something i've been on a kick about for a while... IDM shows IMO, are generally very dull (this from someone who goes to a lot of hiphop concerts). It is usually someone staring blankly into a laptop (which crashes every so often), and totally ignoring the audience. This, i believe, is a tragic mistake because half the point of performing is interacting with your audience. The worst IDM show i've been to was Autechre. They blantantly, and intentionally disregard the presence of an audience for whatever reason. No visuals are present, and the music is reduced to a totally undanceable, and often painful form. It is boring and insulting. Anyone who can claim they are exciting obviously doesnt get out much. The best IDM show i've been to was Mouse on Mars. Why? Because they cared a lot about the audience! They talked to us, brought in live instruments for us to watch, had a funky drummer, and kept everything danceable and stimulating. The whole time they made eye contact, chatted to the crowd, and changed up the music based on the crowd's reaction. I got more than my money's worth. So what is the solution to the dull IDM laptoppers? IDM artists should undestand that to play a show they should know something about performing first. Finding an instrument (older IDM was fun because of analog synth tweaking) or someone who can play one is not difficult. They should try talking to the crowd, making it danceable, bouncing around! IDM artists must do anything but stare into a screen and ignore the audience. I'm sure the fans would greatly appreciate the effort. In a message dated 4/18/02 1:30:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, adm226@nyu.edu writes:

quoted 37 lines Well, I've been feeling pretty jaded about this stuf lately. Most of

> Well, I've been feeling pretty jaded about this stuf lately. Most of > the time, in my experience, there is someone behind a laptop doing god- > knows-what or messing around with faders or eq on their mixer. That > stuff is not fun to watch. However, I don't have much of a problem > with this if its in a kind of dance oriented atmosphere. > > A lof of the time I find that the performer doesn't drop enough of a > hook or beat for dancing to happen. Either that or its just sort of > ambient stuff. In the case of ambient stuff, I can deal with it > sometimes if I have a comfortable place to sit down and its especially > nice if there are some decent visual projections. However, experience > has taught me that I get really tired of those kind of things if I > can't sit down. Maybe its because I'm flat-footed and my feet get sore > easily or maybe its because I'd much rather listen to that kind of > stuff on headphones in the comfort of my room rather than standing > often without breathing space. > > But then there is the upside of live IDM. Acts like Matmos and Mouse > on Mars that bring in live instruments to mix with their laptops. For > me, this is the kind of thing I'd like to see more of. There just > always seems to be more energy in these shows. Laptops just have a > very alienating nature. The person HAS to stare directly into their > screen. It's as if they are permanently distracted from the audience > they are performing for. With a guitar or keyboard, most of the time > people don't have to keep their eyes on what their hands are doing, but > I've never seen someone using a laptop like this. And its not even the > case that people playing traditional instruments are always or ever > engaging the audience with their face or otherwise, but its still a lot > different from the laptop performer who might as well be alone in a > room with their laptops. > > Which is another thing: interplay. Another thing acts like Matmos and > MoM have going for them. And the sense of spontanaity. Alright... > sorry if that rant wasn't to cohesive, but I hope some of these > thoughts might lead to further exploration in your article. > > -Aaron

I disagree, but I think this whole argument should be prefaced with - there is no accounting for taste, and - opinions are like a*sholes, everyone has one and they all stink. with that in mind, I definitely don't think

quoted 3 lines IDM artists should

> IDM artists should > undestand that to play a show they should know something about performing > first.

it's about the music for me, not the pyrotechnics. I think some IDM artists are coming around to your viewpoint though, cex comes to mind as a particularly appropriate example. After a long string of punk/ska/indie shows, I've gotten pretty damn sick of crazy live performances. I actually kind of prefer the guy staring into a laptop. It adds some mystique for me. but then, I'm a software engineer, and a nerd, so maybe alot of people don't share that opinion. Also, anything that distances the show from what is being sold to the kids on MTV (andrew wk, the boy bands, the girl bands, all these bands with their choreographed dance moves or craaaaazy performance junk) is good in my book. The music is created for the fringe, and in my opinion, the guy staring into the glow of a mac powerbook suits an idm show alot better than the aforementioned scene. however, I will admit the idm scene needs an injection of cash money millionaires style jiggy, and idm artists should begin sporting more bling as soon as possible. YMMV, gabe

quoted 40 lines In a message dated 4/18/02 1:30:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, adm226@nyu.edu

> In a message dated 4/18/02 1:30:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, adm226@nyu.edu > > writes: > > Well, I've been feeling pretty jaded about this stuf lately. Most of > > the time, in my experience, there is someone behind a laptop doing god- > > knows-what or messing around with faders or eq on their mixer. That > > stuff is not fun to watch. However, I don't have much of a problem > > with this if its in a kind of dance oriented atmosphere. > > > > A lof of the time I find that the performer doesn't drop enough of a > > hook or beat for dancing to happen. Either that or its just sort of > > ambient stuff. In the case of ambient stuff, I can deal with it > > sometimes if I have a comfortable place to sit down and its especially > > nice if there are some decent visual projections. However, experience > > has taught me that I get really tired of those kind of things if I > > can't sit down. Maybe its because I'm flat-footed and my feet get sore > > easily or maybe its because I'd much rather listen to that kind of > > stuff on headphones in the comfort of my room rather than standing > > often without breathing space. > > > > But then there is the upside of live IDM. Acts like Matmos and Mouse > > on Mars that bring in live instruments to mix with their laptops. For > > me, this is the kind of thing I'd like to see more of. There just > > always seems to be more energy in these shows. Laptops just have a > > very alienating nature. The person HAS to stare directly into their > > screen. It's as if they are permanently distracted from the audience > > they are performing for. With a guitar or keyboard, most of the time > > people don't have to keep their eyes on what their hands are doing, but > > I've never seen someone using a laptop like this. And its not even the > > case that people playing traditional instruments are always or ever > > engaging the audience with their face or otherwise, but its still a lot > > different from the laptop performer who might as well be alone in a > > room with their laptops. > > > > Which is another thing: interplay. Another thing acts like Matmos and > > MoM have going for them. And the sense of spontanaity. Alright... > > sorry if that rant wasn't to cohesive, but I hope some of these > > thoughts might lead to further exploration in your article. > > > > -Aaron

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Aaron- Really nice monologue. Obviously you've been thinking-and acting- on the subject.

quoted 6 lines Incidentally, there's a wider issue I have with performance in the

>Incidentally, there's a wider issue I have with performance in the >electronic music world: that our notions of performance rhetoric seem >strongly grounded in the rock/punk or DJ scenes. Stand in a crowd, face >the performer, watch them run their motor-program of behaviors for you... > >Is that REALLY what's interesting (or should be) with this kind of music?

That's one of the main problems! But I think the main reason for facing the stage is that most of the venues are established "rock" venues. But also there may be the simple reason that the speakers are at the front of the stage, we like to face what we hear. But the real question is why we are even in this position. Intelligent Dance Music - beyond being a fantasy dreamed up by listserve managers- continues to be just a catch bin for everything else made electronically. That's part of the (classification) problem, there are too many disperate elements to truely satify (and justify) definition, and therefore establish a loose set of dogma. It's very hard to say "lap top shows suck" and speak simulatiously about Otto Von Schirock and Noto. To compare Autechre and BOC is one thing, but the scene is two varied to make such pronouncements.

quoted 4 lines So why not go the last mile and relax our expectations for that 5%? Build

>So why not go the last mile and relax our expectations for that 5%? Build >new expectations for what composers/musicians in these genres will >actually DO for you in a situation that is already offering benefits >differentiating it from at-home CD listening (say)?

Agreed, that's why this moment is great because so many different people are trying to figure this particular problem out. You've got performance types doing interesting things theatrically while the lowercase people explore the visceral possibilities of "sound in space and time".

quoted 3 lines Well, what are the alternatives? Other than 'unnecessary' dramatization

>Well, what are the alternatives? Other than 'unnecessary' dramatization >and histronics unrelated to the production of sound? (disclaimer -- I >realize some performances are just as much about those aspects... fine!)

But I think this uncessacary element is just what's needed. Afterall we are humans, we like to be entertained. We like to see people smile and do new, unexpected things. And when we can fluidly and well-control the

quoted 3 lines parameters we're interested in, the cause and effect are often either too

>parameters we're interested in, the cause and effect are often either too >loosely coupled, or not obvious enough to the audience to satisfy (though >there's always hope for audience education...).

That'll change with time. What it sounds like your doing will surly pay off. That is education. To see people play out and to discuss what happens. Donna Summer www.cockrockdisco.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 13 lines Something that occurred to me recently was how much of this debate over

>Something that occurred to me recently was how much of this debate over >'live' performance rests on expectations carried over from rock and pop (and >hiphop) concerts into electronic shows. It seems that the more successful >shows in IDM draw on resources from outside IDM to make their shows >engaging. But could it be that there is something about that use of >computer that alienates people? A computer is a two way connection between >a person and a machine, with both interacting (to some degree) with each >other. The computer is designed to demand your attention in a manner so >wholly different from that of most other instruments that it almost seems as >though the audience is left out of the equation. Perhaps the audience feels >that the performer isn't really 'there' as in engaging the audience, etc. >So maybe this is a question of presence and absence--how much presence is >demanded of the performer?

In "normal" rock concerts, the guy who plays with the sequencers and the crazy sound thingies is usually in the back, and off to the side. There's usually a guitarist or someone who can run around on stage and look like they're doing something interesting. Therefore, you should get a cheesy guitarist. Or, even better -- just set up your stuff to play, and make a cardboard guitar, and run around with a sweatband on your head. derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines Therefore, you should get a cheesy guitarist.

> Therefore, you should get a cheesy guitarist. > > Or, even better -- just set up your stuff to play, and make a cardboard > guitar, and run around with a sweatband on your head.

At one point I thought about getting together a full (rock) band, but minus drum sticks, guitar strings, bass strings, and mic (though with stand to swing). We'd start a tape of loud pink/white noise, go through the motions of playing an entire set (encore and banter included) silently, then turn off the white noise. I was hoping to tour. best aaron ghede@well.com http://www.quietamerican.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

not exactly IDM - but close enough: the prodigy have got it right if yer gonna play music that makes you want to dance (I "DANCE" M) then they have the right formula if you make chin-scratching music ("INTELLIGENT" DM )(sic) then the stage presence isnt really required so much a la autechre live shows. for this reason i find IDM pretty fucking boring live, and prefer to listen to it at home. if im in a club, i like to have a few beers and jump about. that might not be the general list consensus - but i think most people feel the same. --- "... hellothisisalex ..." <mark@hellothisisalex.com> wrote:

quoted 89 lines Hello,

> Hello, > > As a performer this is the kind of question that > seems to pop into my own > head every once and a while--what can I do that is > entertaining for myself > and the audience but allows me to create and perform > electronic music in a > live setting? > > Something that occurred to me recently was how much > of this debate over > 'live' performance rests on expectations carried > over from rock and pop (and > hiphop) concerts into electronic shows. It seems > that the more successful > shows in IDM draw on resources from outside IDM to > make their shows > engaging. But could it be that there is something > about that use of > computer that alienates people? A computer is a two > way connection between > a person and a machine, with both interacting (to > some degree) with each > other. The computer is designed to demand your > attention in a manner so > wholly different from that of most other instruments > that it almost seems as > though the audience is left out of the equation. > Perhaps the audience feels > that the performer isn't really 'there' as in > engaging the audience, etc. > So maybe this is a question of presence and > absence--how much presence is > demanded of the performer? > > I would say that 99.9% the presence required depends > on the setting. Some > people don't like to dance and would rather listen. > Some performers would > rather have people listen than dance. For example: > the Autechre show > mentioned; Radiohead has been known to ask people to > not mosh at shows, etc. > There is apparently a two-way communication between > the audience and the > performer to be maintained, and maybe the problem at > a lot of IDM shows is > that the audience isn't sure what the performer > expects of them, and vice > versa. I would say that musicians writing music for > listening are asking > people to listen, whether they like that or not. > The audience doesn't have > to comply, but they are being asked. If a performer > is engaging the > audience in a blatant manner (ala Cex), the audience > knows they are being > engaged. > > I don't have any answers to this solution, but I > would also say that it can > be disheartening for some musicians when the > audience doesn't understand the > 'unwritten rules' of a performance. All > performances have them (picture Cat > Power playing to an audience--should the audience > listen quietly or jump > about madly because they are so driven?) and some > performances maybe just > need to articulate them better. The first step I > think I would take if I > was a laptop artist would be to not perform raised > up on a stage or in a > position to be watched. Beyond that, I have no > idea. > > cheers > Mark & Melissa > hellothisisalex > www.hellothisisalex.com / > records.hellothisisalex.com > mp3s at > www.raw42.com/cgi-bin/featuredartist.pl?artist=213 > mark@hellothisisalex > > > >

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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 3 lines Or, even better -- just set up your stuff to play, and make a cardboard

> Or, even better -- just set up your stuff to play, and make a cardboard > guitar, and run around with a sweatband on your head. >

That's exactly what girltalk does if you've ever seen him play. - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

let me state first that i don't think watching some guy play on a laptop is fun either, the majority of the time. however, i perform this way and right now i don't have any alternative... i think you'd be hard pressed to find a band that sounded like kid 606 or some of the more out there electronic performers. kid 606 is not a rock band, and anyone going to the show expecting that sort of live performance is making a mistake, but hopefully this hypothetical person would be in awe of the BIG GIANT AMAZING SOUND that very few bands can make and none of them can make it in the same way as a computer performer can. laptop performers ought not to be put on a stage if they're going to just stare at the laptop or play with mix/eq stuff (but as far as what you said about staring intently at the screen... granted there are people for whom the "live-ness" of their performance is questionable... but if you take someone who you know to be actually performing instead of just selecting, it's probably a much better thing that they're staring very intently at their screen, as navigating a gui with your eyes closed or looking the other way is not the easiest thing in the world.)... anyway... gregory ///aaron said: Well, I've been feeling pretty jaded about this stuf lately. Most of the time, in my experience, there is someone behind a laptop doing god- knows-what or messing around with faders or eq on their mixer. That stuff is not fun to watch. However, I don't have much of a problem with this if its in a kind of dance oriented atmosphere. ///

quoted 1 line RABBIT IN THE MOON cared a lot about their audience i'd say :-)

> RABBIT IN THE MOON cared a lot about their audience i'd say :-)

So much that they've been doing the same show for years and still haven't bothered to put out that album. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

more chilled out IDM musicians would be better off playing smaller venues where the emphasis is on the venue itself, with the artist hidden away on a small stage somewhere playing, but not playing *extremely* loud. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

If I want a stage show, I'll go and watch a fucking lame ass punk band dicking around, or some stupid wankers in masks nailing their genitals to boards. Personally I go for the music, the intellectual stimulation that is most IDM, if I want to dance the night away I know I won't do it seeing kid606, so don't expect to. When I go to see electronic music I want the person to be up there doing music, using whatever is their instrument to maximum effect, be it laptop, synths or kazoo. If they're running around with a carrot stuck up their arse for "comic effect", it is unlikely to be a good set. I think the best place you could see IDM would be in a coffee shop situation (prefferably the dutch variant), where you can be at ease with the music and not have to dance, but actually be able to listen. There is a growing population of "shite" IDM bands that somehow have managed to get a recording contract and yet are producing stuff that is in reality unoriginal and uninspiring, I believe this is the death throws of the genre, nothing visceral and different is arriving, everything is homogenising, new artists ripoff, old artists churn out bland spam. I blame the internet. cheerio georgewilliamson -- I have recurring dreams where I can't find things georgewilliamson@btinternet.com http://www.chemeng.ed.ac.uk/~emju49/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

this, in my humble opinion, is incredibly arrogant, ignorant and elitist. --- George Williamson <georgewilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

quoted 55 lines If I want a stage show, I'll go and watch a fucking

> If I want a stage show, I'll go and watch a fucking > lame ass > punk band dicking around, or some stupid wankers in > masks > nailing their genitals to boards. Personally I go > for the > music, the intellectual stimulation that is most > IDM, if I > want to dance the night away I know I won't do it > seeing > kid606, so don't expect to. > > When I go to see electronic music I want the person > to be up > there doing music, using whatever is their > instrument to > maximum effect, be it laptop, synths or kazoo. If > they're > running around with a carrot stuck up their arse for > "comic > effect", it is unlikely to be a good set. I think > the best > place you could see IDM would be in a coffee shop > situation > (prefferably the dutch variant), where you can be at > ease > with the music and not have to dance, but actually > be able > to listen. > > There is a growing population of "shite" IDM bands > that > somehow have managed to get a recording contract and > yet are > producing stuff that is in reality unoriginal and > uninspiring, I believe this is the death throws of > the > genre, nothing visceral and different is arriving, > everything is homogenising, new artists ripoff, old > artists > churn out bland spam. > > I blame the internet. > > cheerio > > georgewilliamson > -- > I have recurring dreams where I can't find things > georgewilliamson@btinternet.com > http://www.chemeng.ed.ac.uk/~emju49/ > > > >

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I've noticed a decent ammount of people seem to equate an engaging performance as being something with a lot of forced "entertainment." I beg to differ. You can have an engaging performance without having props, or dancers, or lights. I'd like to equate IDM to Jazz music. I've been to a number of jazz clubs, and there are rarely people jumping around hollering. A jazz "show" is usually an audience sitting at tables watching the performers go. But the band always addresses the audience, and they manipulate the sets as to how the audience reacts. Plus watching an amazingly talented musician playing a solo is great entertainment in itself. It is in this direction that IDM artists should look, perhaps. The rock setting certainly does not hold up well with many people (myself included). IDM certainly isn't for pyrotechnics, but that doesnt mean it should be dull either. If someone is willing to pay $15 to see a show, they should at least get some entertainment out of it. And not forced, calculated stuff either. There is an art to performance, just like anything else. Most of that art centers around the audience, because without them there would be no performance. It is so important to be able to engage the audience. As long as the artist accomplishes this the show will be a success. Neither laptops nor pyrotechnics interact with the audience, but musicians do. In a message dated 4/19/02 9:25:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gweinstock@citynet.net writes:

quoted 3 lines it's about the music for me, not the pyrotechnics. I think some IDM artists

> it's about the music for me, not the pyrotechnics. I think some IDM artists > are coming around to your viewpoint though, cex comes to mind as a > particularly appropriate example.

There's only a few electronic artists that can pull it off live. I really enjoyed Aphex Twin's live shows back in the day. Really raw and really live. Even when he started using laptops live (and he was the first), it was new, and he added some dancing bears, female bodybuilders, and midgets to the mix. I also was in London for the WARP rave last fall, and that was actually a mind blowing experience. The Brits really get into their music, and people were all dancing and screaming and it created a huge amount of positive energy. Seeing Plaid/Anti-Pop Consortium/AFX live in London and comparing the same experience in the states is totally different. The crowd just dances like they just don't care...and are totally in their music. It's incredibly infecting, and you feel like doing something...even if it isn't dancing. People in the states seem like they're bored elitist music geeks and just sit around... Almost every "IDM" show back here in the states has been lame for a while now. A few hednodders and everyone staring at the dude with a laptop (who's ripping off autechre or aphex anyways). I thought I really got jipped when I saw AE live last spring. I had heard of their huge amount of samplers, analog synths, and modified gear they'd bring live, and had waited to see them for 6 years. All they had was a couple of G4 laptops... REALLY unimpressive. I was just recently dragged out to see Hrvratski live, and must say that it was just like any of the other shows I've seen for the last 2-3 years. Another problem is that all this music is sounding the same. Almost every guy either has to either use this deliberite DSP fuckery to sound like Autechre, or some cheesy video-gamey melodies or samples to be funny(a la RDJ Album). I hope some people really end this era of laptop boringness, or electronic music will be heading nowhere fast. All I can say is that back in the day, electronic music was cool live. Kraftwerk had a real intense live show. Ministry knew how to kick major ass. Nine Inch Nails put on quite an incredible show (I'd rather see him express something while playing to DATS than fucking geek out on laptops). Depeche Mode and Meat Beat Manifesto brought modular gear and operated on analog seequencers live! Skinny Puppy had huge epic live dramas. The Last Rights show was simply incredible... Nivek Ogre pulled off objects from a huge revolving tree, while we could view his experiences in the cyberhelmet on screen... I could go on and on about how this was better live... Now some kids want to tell me that these laptop shows are cool? Maybe I'm a bit old school, but I think these laptop shows are degrading. I write electronic music on a laptop since I'm a travelling college student, but the last thing I'll do is play out on it. I'd think the only way I'd play live is by taking a toilet to the middle of the stage while wearing some geeky glasses and taking a huge shit while operating some software on my laptop. -David --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

well i'd have to strongly disagree about the live show aspect. it could be a mechanical robot triggered to set off fireworks or pyro and the like. i.e. h-gun labs. i see no problem with that. and this may be set in stone but i feel the word intelligent dance music did not start with aphex twin. more so kraftwerk and older artists. disagree all you want it won't change my mind. now again, i'd like to see more artists going off in bigger ways, louder sounds. not only abstract beats but 4x4's, 16th's and other styles as well. to me intelligent dance music is ever changing, not stuck in a rut catagorized to a few artists. older things that come to mind, micro chip league, front 242(still breaking ground imo), wire, fla, etc etc, various electronic acts, techno related. industrial related. --- Jc105776@aol.com wrote:

quoted 93 lines There's only a few electronic artists that can pull

> There's only a few electronic artists that can pull > it off live. I really > enjoyed Aphex Twin's live shows back in the day. > Really raw and really live. > Even when he started using laptops live (and he was > the first), it was new, > and he added some dancing bears, female > bodybuilders, and midgets to the mix. > > > I also was in London for the WARP rave last fall, > and that was actually a > mind blowing experience. The Brits really get into > their music, and people > were all dancing and screaming and it created a huge > amount of positive > energy. Seeing Plaid/Anti-Pop Consortium/AFX live > in London and comparing > the same experience in the states is totally > different. The crowd just > dances like they just don't care...and are totally > in their music. It's > incredibly infecting, and you feel like doing > something...even if it isn't > dancing. People in the states seem like they're > bored elitist music geeks > and just sit around... > > Almost every "IDM" show back here in the states has > been lame for a while > now. A few hednodders and everyone staring at the > dude with a laptop (who's > ripping off autechre or aphex anyways). I thought I > really got jipped when I > saw AE live last spring. I had heard of their huge > amount of samplers, > analog synths, and modified gear they'd bring live, > and had waited to see > them for 6 years. All they had was a couple of G4 > laptops... REALLY > unimpressive. I was just recently dragged out to > see Hrvratski live, and > must say that it was just like any of the other > shows I've seen for the last > 2-3 years. > > Another problem is that all this music is sounding > the same. Almost every > guy either has to either use this deliberite DSP > fuckery to sound like > Autechre, or some cheesy video-gamey melodies or > samples to be funny(a la RDJ > Album). I hope some people really end this era of > laptop boringness, or > electronic music will be heading nowhere fast. > > All I can say is that back in the day, electronic > music was cool live. > Kraftwerk had a real intense live show. Ministry > knew how to kick major ass. > Nine Inch Nails put on quite an incredible show > (I'd rather see him express > something while playing to DATS than fucking geek > out on laptops). Depeche > Mode and Meat Beat Manifesto brought modular gear > and operated on analog > seequencers live! Skinny Puppy had huge epic live > dramas. The Last Rights > show was simply incredible... Nivek Ogre pulled off > objects from a huge > revolving tree, while we could view his experiences > in the cyberhelmet on > screen... I could go on and on about how this was > better live... Now some > kids want to tell me that these laptop shows are > cool? > > Maybe I'm a bit old school, but I think these laptop > shows are degrading. I > write electronic music on a laptop since I'm a > travelling college student, > but the last thing I'll do is play out on it. I'd > think the only way I'd > play live is by taking a toilet to the middle of the > stage while wearing some > geeky glasses and taking a huge shit while operating > some software on my > laptop. > > -David > > >

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quoted 5 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:

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it seems like alot of people are really into the rawk! like, idm artists need to rock out and drink lots of booze, and engage in fraternity hijinks and pump chicks and what have you I think we all know the next step PAINTED FACES MASKS PROSTHETIC HORNS and live shows ala SLIPKNOT!!!! as for me, I'm in the group who isn't all about having music force fed down my throat by some drunk jock who happens to play idm now and feels that his punk influences are somehow superior to the lap top show. f_ck that, I took enough of that in high school and if I want it now I can go to any bar or club in any town in america. idm must not go nu-metal not directed at you dave, just it seems a large segment of the list would do away with the 'i' and the 'd' and replace them with some other abbreviation. I mean really, if you want rock why don't you go to a fucking rock show then?? poised with finger over the delete button, giddy at the prospect of being flamed into last tuesday, g. On Friday 19 April 2002 12:08 pm, Jc105776@aol.com wrote:

quoted 57 lines There's only a few electronic artists that can pull it off live. I really

> There's only a few electronic artists that can pull it off live. I really > enjoyed Aphex Twin's live shows back in the day. Really raw and really > live. Even when he started using laptops live (and he was the first), it > was new, and he added some dancing bears, female bodybuilders, and midgets > to the mix. > > > I also was in London for the WARP rave last fall, and that was actually a > mind blowing experience. The Brits really get into their music, and people > were all dancing and screaming and it created a huge amount of positive > energy. Seeing Plaid/Anti-Pop Consortium/AFX live in London and comparing > the same experience in the states is totally different. The crowd just > dances like they just don't care...and are totally in their music. It's > incredibly infecting, and you feel like doing something...even if it isn't > dancing. People in the states seem like they're bored elitist music geeks > and just sit around... > > Almost every "IDM" show back here in the states has been lame for a while > now. A few hednodders and everyone staring at the dude with a laptop > (who's ripping off autechre or aphex anyways). I thought I really got > jipped when I saw AE live last spring. I had heard of their huge amount of > samplers, analog synths, and modified gear they'd bring live, and had > waited to see them for 6 years. All they had was a couple of G4 laptops... > REALLY unimpressive. I was just recently dragged out to see Hrvratski > live, and must say that it was just like any of the other shows I've seen > for the last 2-3 years. > > Another problem is that all this music is sounding the same. Almost every > guy either has to either use this deliberite DSP fuckery to sound like > Autechre, or some cheesy video-gamey melodies or samples to be funny(a la > RDJ Album). I hope some people really end this era of laptop boringness, > or electronic music will be heading nowhere fast. > > All I can say is that back in the day, electronic music was cool live. > Kraftwerk had a real intense live show. Ministry knew how to kick major > ass. Nine Inch Nails put on quite an incredible show (I'd rather see him > express something while playing to DATS than fucking geek out on laptops). > Depeche Mode and Meat Beat Manifesto brought modular gear and operated on > analog seequencers live! Skinny Puppy had huge epic live dramas. The Last > Rights show was simply incredible... Nivek Ogre pulled off objects from a > huge revolving tree, while we could view his experiences in the cyberhelmet > on screen... I could go on and on about how this was better live... Now > some kids want to tell me that these laptop shows are cool? > > Maybe I'm a bit old school, but I think these laptop shows are degrading. > I write electronic music on a laptop since I'm a travelling college > student, but the last thing I'll do is play out on it. I'd think the only > way I'd play live is by taking a toilet to the middle of the stage while > wearing some geeky glasses and taking a huge shit while operating some > software on my laptop. > > -David > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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At 01:00 PM 4/19/2002 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines it seems like alot of people are really into the rawk! like, idm artists need

>it seems like alot of people are really into the rawk! like, idm artists need >to rock out and drink lots of booze, and engage in fraternity hijinks and >pump chicks and what have you

No, I'm of the impression that these people believe that shows played at rock venues should be like this. They're also saying that it would be very cool if they were offered at a loungey-type place, where people could *gasp* sit down to enjoy the music. But if you're just standing there, and your only option is to either dance (to music that is likely not danceable), or stare at the people on stage, it makes sense that it's going to be boring if your major sense (vision) isn't engaged. derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Hey! That's a pretty good summation of where we are so far in this thread. No one said (or meant seriously) that we want a Twisted Sister-like IDM show although... that'd be pretty rad. Yea... so... what Derek said.

quoted 20 lines No, I'm of the impression that these people believe that shows

> > No, I'm of the impression that these people believe that shows > played at > rock venues should be like this. > > They're also saying that it would be very cool if they were > offered at a > loungey-type place, where people could *gasp* sit down to enjoy > the music. > > But if you're just standing there, and your only option is to > either dance > (to music that is likely not danceable), or stare at the people on > stage, > it makes sense that it's going to be boring if your major sense > (vision) > isn't engaged. > > derek > -------

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so you're saying there aren't enough places to sit at the laptop show? fair enough g. On Friday 19 April 2002 01:21 pm, Aaron D Meyers wrote:

quoted 31 lines Hey! That's a pretty good summation of where we are so far in this

> Hey! That's a pretty good summation of where we are so far in this > thread. > > No one said (or meant seriously) that we want a Twisted Sister-like IDM > show although... that'd be pretty rad. > > Yea... so... what Derek said. > > > No, I'm of the impression that these people believe that shows > > played at > > rock venues should be like this. > > > > They're also saying that it would be very cool if they were > > offered at a > > loungey-type place, where people could *gasp* sit down to enjoy > > the music. > > > > But if you're just standing there, and your only option is to > > either dance > > (to music that is likely not danceable), or stare at the people on > > stage, > > it makes sense that it's going to be boring if your major sense > > (vision) > > isn't engaged. > > > > derek > > ------- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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not directed at you dave, just it seems a large segment of the list would do

quoted 4 lines away with the 'i' and the 'd' and replace them with some other

>away with the 'i' and the 'd' and replace them with some other >abbreviation. >I mean really, if you want rock why don't you go to a fucking rock show >then??

See, I wish I could be ACDC, but I can't. That paradime just don't work anymore. There's too many other elements culturally and musically that make the same old rock gestures tired and useless. The press keeps jacking off over the Strokes, but they are just a very good rehash of the same old thing. but I also think we need to be true to our roots. Rock, Rap and Punk music have been the dominate music of rebellion for 50 years. Why should we assume that a new alternative will pop up in a few years? Why not use these elements to make something new, just as Rap did in the 80's. And you know what, something is new out there, we just can't say what it is just yet... What I'm saying, is that we have to define our interests better, because the sun does not rise and fall over the Warp records back catalogue. We have to intergate more into what we do than just try to figure out how to emulate AFX or AE. That's why I try to make new music made from the stinking corpse of rock... (and so do other people, wait till you hear the new matmos stuff) Donna www.cockrockdisco.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Okay, since I make electronic music, I'll make another point. Seeing a laptop show live, consists of hitting space bar on a software sequencer, and turning some DSP effects on your laptop as the track progresses. Why is this any different than hitting play on your CD player? How does this make it any more live? Hitting play on a prerecorded piece of work and moving a mouse to tweak some minor effects, and hitting play on your CD player/LP player to me is the same damn thing. Why should I pay $10 to see this? I'd rather buy a 6-pack and stay at home and space bar on *MY* laptop and write music. If you're going to a show to pick up chicks (or guys) and making a show a whole social experience, kudos to you. I just like music, and I find these shows COMPLETELY stupid. It's not that I want to see a rock show...I go to see live music to see another aspect of the music...something visual or at least a live interpretation of the recorded work. Otherwise, music to me, is an purely auditory experience. I never said I wanted some dudes rocking out. Rock music these days is mostly full of shit, but I'll be the first to say that a rock show is more interesting then a guy hitting space bar on a laptop and moving a mouse. I'm not a huge matmos fan, but I'll say that I was pretty impressed when I saw their show back in 99...why can't anybody else do something else as interesting. If they call this music "intelligent", then why aren't the shows intelligently conceived? -David --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Okay, since I make electronic music, I'll make another point. Playing a laptop show live, consists of hitting space bar on a software sequencer, and turning some DSP effects on your laptop as the track progresses. Why is this any different than hitting play on your CD player? How does this make it any more live? Hitting play on a prerecorded piece of work and moving a mouse to tweak some minor effects, and hitting play on your CD player/LP player to me is the same damn thing. Why should I pay $10 to see this? I'd rather buy a 6-pack and stay at home and press space bar on *MY* laptop and write music. If you're going to a show to pick up chicks (or guys) and making a show a whole social experience, kudos to you. I just like music, and I find these shows COMPLETELY stupid. It's not that I want to see a rock show...I go to see live music to see another aspect of the music...something visual or at least a live interpretation of the recorded work. Otherwise, music to me, is an purely auditory experience. I never said I wanted some dudes rocking out. Rock music these days is mostly full of shit, but I'll be the first to say that a rock show is more interesting then a guy hitting space bar on a laptop and moving a mouse. I'm not a huge matmos fan, but I'll say that I was pretty impressed when I saw their show back in 99...why can't anybody else do something else as interesting. If they call this music "intelligent", then why aren't the shows intelligently conceived? -David i --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

what ever happened to just going out to dance to some fucking loud music?! american audiences have such a problem with dancing... europeans dance to anything... even if there is no drum beat! i've spoken to both djs and artists about this and they are just baffled as to what's up with dancing in america. turn it up and dance funny... even if you don't have rhythm. i gotta deal bedroom producers and djs... now i got to deal with bedroom dancers too! aaarrrgggg! alex Jc105776@aol.com wrote: Okay, since I make electronic music, I'll make another point. Playing a laptop show live, consists of hitting space bar on a software sequencer, and turning some DSP effects on your laptop as the track progresses. Why is this any different than hitting play on your CD player? How does this make it any more live? Hitting play on a prerecorded piece of work and moving a mouse to tweak some minor effects, and hitting play on your CD player/LP player to me is the same damn thing. Why should I pay $10 to see this? I'd rather buy a 6-pack and stay at home and press space bar on *MY* laptop and write music. If you're going to a show to pick up chicks (or guys) and making a show a whole social experience, kudos to you. I just like music, and I find these shows COMPLETELY stupid. It's not that I want to see a rock show...I go to see live music to see another aspect of the music...something visual or at least a live interpretation of the recorded work. Otherwise, music to me, is an purely auditory experience. I never said I wanted some dudes rocking out. Rock music these days is mostly full of shit, but I'll be the first to say that a rock show is more interesting then a guy hitting space bar on a laptop and moving a mouse. I'm not a huge matmos fan, but I'll say that I was pretty impressed when I saw their show back in 99...why can't anybody else do something else as interesting. If they call this music "intelligent", then why aren't the shows intelligently conceived? -David i --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

Some reasons to see a live laptop show... so what! An artist shows up and hits the space bar on his/her laptop. You show up and: 1) you might get a crack at some otherwise unavailable merch. 2) you might get a chance to talk to the artist 3) you might meet guys/girls 4) you to hear music you already like or love played on a sound system you would never or could never own. 5) add to that the social aspect of it 6) it forces you (or should, anyway) to get out on the dance floor and enjoy yourself... something you are not likely to do in the privacy of your own home 7) I've often gone to a show to see one artist and discovered another I may never otherwise have heard. 8) it's fun all that and a bag of tricks for $10 Sure... count me in. ¢2-matT --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 02:17 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines Some reasons to see a live laptop show...

>Some reasons to see a live laptop show... > >so what! An artist shows up and hits the space bar on his/her laptop.

An artist that I'm paying money to see specifically. Not to go to a party with some good music. If it's billed like a rock show, with opening acts and headliners, it should *at least* be structured like one, with the artists visible and the center of the act. Otherwise, it should be billed differently, such as saying "music, good drinks, some food, and Autechre!"

quoted 1 line You show up and:

>You show up and:

I don't want to come off as an asshole by parsing your list, but I wanted to address some points you brought up.

quoted 1 line 1) you might get a crack at some otherwise unavailable merch.

>1) you might get a crack at some otherwise unavailable merch.

I personally see this as a perk to a live show, but hardly the reason to attend (and definitely not the #1 reason). Why a $4 t-shirt with, apparently, $16 worth of ink on it is justification for a poor live performance is beyond me :D

quoted 2 lines 2) you might get a chance to talk to the artist

>2) you might get a chance to talk to the artist >3) you might meet guys/girls

These are great reasons to go to a show. I've always liked being able to see the artist I paid to go see, and be like "huh, they're not so weird after all." And it's nice to see who else is in the local "IDM community." Granted, they're usually dweeby shy types, which hinders the whole "meeting" thing, but at least they're some fresh faces.

quoted 2 lines 4) you to hear music you already like or love played on a sound system you

>4) you to hear music you already like or love played on a sound system you >would never or could never own.

*ahem* Perhaps the local venues here are not representative of venues in other parts of the world, but First Avenue (in Minneapolis) is pretty famous, and their sound system is simply loud. Sure, it sounds decent loud, but all the shows I've seen there and at other venues in the area are just loud for the sake of loud. They distort, they fuzz and pop, and if they're the epitome of quality, I have some land in alaska to sell you.

quoted 1 line 5) add to that the social aspect of it

>5) add to that the social aspect of it

Unless they're all dweeby introverts :)

quoted 3 lines 6) it forces you (or should, anyway) to get out on the dance floor and enjoy

>6) it forces you (or should, anyway) to get out on the dance floor and enjoy >yourself... something you are not likely to do in the privacy of your own >home

Your other points are valid, but this I do not see. As has been stated by other people, not everyone enjoys music by dancing, and a lot of people bop around their bedroom but are rather reserved in public. Especially those dweeby introverts. I personally would rather have some seating areas rather than a huge sprawling dance floor. Sure, you can fit more people into an open space, but are IDM shows that popular? Autechre will fill a small room simply out of curiosity's sake, but there's no reason they shouldn't be able to book smaller venues that have seating. Maybe it's just that the local promoters in the Minneapolis area are ass. derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

EggyToast <eggy@eggytoast.com> wrote: At 02:17 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines Some reasons to see a live laptop show...

>Some reasons to see a live laptop show... > >so what! An artist shows up and hits the space bar on his/her laptop.

An artist that I'm paying money to see specifically. Not to go to a party with some good music. If it's billed like a rock show, with opening acts and headliners, it should *at least* be structured like one, with the artists visible and the center of the act. Otherwise, it should be billed differently, such as saying "music, good drinks, some food, and Autechre!"

quoted 1 line You show up and:

>You show up and:

I don't want to come off as an asshole by parsing your list, but I wanted to address some points you brought up.

quoted 1 line 1) you might get a crack at some otherwise unavailable merch.

>1) you might get a crack at some otherwise unavailable merch.

I personally see this as a perk to a live show, but hardly the reason to attend (and definitely not the #1 reason). Why a $4 t-shirt with, apparently, $16 worth of ink on it is justification for a poor live performance is beyond me :D

quoted 2 lines 2) you might get a chance to talk to the artist

>2) you might get a chance to talk to the artist >3) you might meet guys/girls

These are great reasons to go to a show. I've always liked being able to see the artist I paid to go see, and be like "huh, they're not so weird after all." And it's nice to see who else is in the local "IDM community." Granted, they're usually dweeby shy types, which hinders the whole "meeting" thing, but at least they're some fresh faces.

quoted 2 lines 4) you to hear music you already like or love played on a sound system you

>4) you to hear music you already like or love played on a sound system you >would never or could never own.

*ahem* Perhaps the local venues here are not representative of venues in other parts of the world, but First Avenue (in Minneapolis) is pretty famous, and their sound system is simply loud. Sure, it sounds decent loud, but all the shows I've seen there and at other venues in the area are just loud for the sake of loud. They distort, they fuzz and pop, and if they're the epitome of quality, I have some land in alaska to sell you.

quoted 1 line 5) add to that the social aspect of it

>5) add to that the social aspect of it

Unless they're all dweeby introverts :)

quoted 3 lines 6) it forces you (or should, anyway) to get out on the dance floor and enjoy

>6) it forces you (or should, anyway) to get out on the dance floor and enjoy >yourself... something you are not likely to do in the privacy of your own >home

Your other points are valid, but this I do not see. As has been stated by other people, not everyone enjoys music by dancing, and a lot of people bop around their bedroom but are rather reserved in public. Especially those dweeby introverts. I personally would rather have some seating areas rather than a huge sprawling dance floor. Sure, you can fit more people into an open space, but are IDM shows that popular? Autechre will fill a small room simply out of curiosity's sake, but there's no reason they shouldn't be able to book smaller venues that have seating. Maybe it's just that the local promoters in the Minneapolis area are ass. derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

no "live" show... just some good music, drinks, dancing, good sound system, and some couches to make veryone happy... and oh ... a bunch of djs spinning autechre ;-) May 14th, 2002 Tuesday 10pm - 4am GLITCH @ Bar 13 FREE 21 + 35 east 13th street @ University Place Union Square, New York City http://www.bar13.com check out the inside of the club/bar EggyToast <eggy@eggytoast.com> wrote: At 02:17 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines Some reasons to see a live laptop show...

>Some reasons to see a live laptop show... > >so what! An artist shows up and hits the space bar on his/her laptop.

An artist that I'm paying money to see specifically. Not to go to a party with some good music. If it's billed like a rock show, with opening acts and headliners, it should *at least* be structured like one, with the artists visible and the center of the act. Otherwise, it should be billed differently, such as saying "music, good drinks, some food, and Autechre!"

quoted 1 line You show up and:

>You show up and:

I don't want to come off as an asshole by parsing your list, but I wanted to address some points you brought up.

quoted 1 line 1) you might get a crack at some otherwise unavailable merch.

>1) you might get a crack at some otherwise unavailable merch.

I personally see this as a perk to a live show, but hardly the reason to attend (and definitely not the #1 reason). Why a $4 t-shirt with, apparently, $16 worth of ink on it is justification for a poor live performance is beyond me :D

quoted 2 lines 2) you might get a chance to talk to the artist

>2) you might get a chance to talk to the artist >3) you might meet guys/girls

These are great reasons to go to a show. I've always liked being able to see the artist I paid to go see, and be like "huh, they're not so weird after all." And it's nice to see who else is in the local "IDM community." Granted, they're usually dweeby shy types, which hinders the whole "meeting" thing, but at least they're some fresh faces.

quoted 2 lines 4) you to hear music you already like or love played on a sound system you

>4) you to hear music you already like or love played on a sound system you >would never or could never own.

*ahem* Perhaps the local venues here are not representative of venues in other parts of the world, but First Avenue (in Minneapolis) is pretty famous, and their sound system is simply loud. Sure, it sounds decent loud, but all the shows I've seen there and at other venues in the area are just loud for the sake of loud. They distort, they fuzz and pop, and if they're the epitome of quality, I have some land in alaska to sell you.

quoted 1 line 5) add to that the social aspect of it

>5) add to that the social aspect of it

Unless they're all dweeby introverts :)

quoted 3 lines 6) it forces you (or should, anyway) to get out on the dance floor and enjoy

>6) it forces you (or should, anyway) to get out on the dance floor and enjoy >yourself... something you are not likely to do in the privacy of your own >home

Your other points are valid, but this I do not see. As has been stated by other people, not everyone enjoys music by dancing, and a lot of people bop around their bedroom but are rather reserved in public. Especially those dweeby introverts. I personally would rather have some seating areas rather than a huge sprawling dance floor. Sure, you can fit more people into an open space, but are IDM shows that popular? Autechre will fill a small room simply out of curiosity's sake, but there's no reason they shouldn't be able to book smaller venues that have seating. Maybe it's just that the local promoters in the Minneapolis area are ass. derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

hey now, some of us go the extra mile and click the play button with our mouse instead of hitting the space bar. jon tenandtracer ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jc105776@aol.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [idm] IDM concerts

quoted 2 lines Okay, since I make electronic music, I'll make another point. Playing a

> Okay, since I make electronic music, I'll make another point. Playing a > laptop show live, consists of hitting space bar on a software sequencer,

and

quoted 1 line turning some DSP effects on your laptop as the track progresses. Why is

> turning some DSP effects on your laptop as the track progresses. Why is

this

quoted 1 line any different than hitting play on your CD player? How does this make it

> any different than hitting play on your CD player? How does this make it

any

quoted 1 line more live? Hitting play on a prerecorded piece of work and moving a mouse

> more live? Hitting play on a prerecorded piece of work and moving a mouse

to

quoted 1 line tweak some minor effects, and hitting play on your CD player/LP player to

> tweak some minor effects, and hitting play on your CD player/LP player to

me

quoted 1 line is the same damn thing. Why should I pay $10 to see this? I'd rather buy

> is the same damn thing. Why should I pay $10 to see this? I'd rather buy

a

quoted 1 line 6-pack and stay at home and press space bar on *MY* laptop and write

> 6-pack and stay at home and press space bar on *MY* laptop and write

music.

quoted 2 lines If

> If > you're going to a show to pick up chicks (or guys) and making a show a

whole

quoted 1 line social experience, kudos to you. I just like music, and I find these

> social experience, kudos to you. I just like music, and I find these

shows

quoted 7 lines COMPLETELY stupid.

> COMPLETELY stupid. > > It's not that I want to see a rock show...I go to see live music to see > another aspect of the music...something visual or at least a live > interpretation of the recorded work. Otherwise, music to me, is an purely > auditory experience. I never said I wanted some dudes rocking out. Rock > music these days is mostly full of shit, but I'll be the first to say that

a

quoted 2 lines rock show is more interesting then a guy hitting space bar on a laptop and

> rock show is more interesting then a guy hitting space bar on a laptop and > moving a mouse. I'm not a huge matmos fan, but I'll say that I was

pretty

quoted 15 lines impressed when I saw their show back in 99...why can't anybody else do

> impressed when I saw their show back in 99...why can't anybody else do > something else as interesting. > > If they call this music "intelligent", then why aren't the shows > intelligently conceived? > > -David > > i > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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this thread is bor-ing for the love of god, enough already --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 03:25 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, omz wrote:

quoted 4 lines this thread is bor-ing

>this thread is bor-ing > > >for the love of god, enough already

There's more people than just you on this mailing list. Sorry to burst your bubble. derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 9 lines At 03:25 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, omz wrote:

>At 03:25 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, omz wrote: >>this thread is bor-ing >> >> >>for the love of god, enough already > >There's more people than just you on this mailing list. > >Sorry to burst your bubble.

Then there should be better things to discuss than this. I mean, if you want to go to shows go. If not, stay home if you don't think it's worth your money. But speculating about what artists could do to make it more interesting to you? Give me a break. If Aphex wants to sit onstage and check his email, some will go, others will think it is a wank. Do you think he (or any other artist) gives a toss? That's why they are artists. They do what they want to do, not what you want them to. You either like it or you don't. Get over it. -- ________________________ omz beautamous loaf recordings http://www.hotweird.com/loaf --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 03:51 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 15 lines At 03:25 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, omz wrote:

>>At 03:25 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, omz wrote: >>>this thread is bor-ing >>> >>> >>>for the love of god, enough already >> >>There's more people than just you on this mailing list. >> >>Sorry to burst your bubble. > >Then there should be better things to discuss than this. > >I mean, if you want to go to shows go. If not, stay home if you don't >think it's worth your money. But speculating about what artists could do >to make it more interesting to you? Give me a break.

How else are they supposed to find out? And most shows aren't set up by artists -- they're set up by promoters, many of which are on the list (which you would've known had you been reading the thread).

quoted 1 line Do you think he (or any other artist) gives a toss?

> Do you think he (or any other artist) gives a toss?

If they want to make money by having a live show, then yes. If they only care about the music, they wouldn't play out, since playing out is a way to increase your visibility, sell some goods, and get people into your music (so they buy it).

quoted 2 lines That's why they are artists. They do what they want to do, not what you

> That's why they are artists. They do what they want to do, not what you > want them to. You either like it or you don't. Get over it.

And those artists are the ones that are going to do no matter what this thread says. But there are plenty of other artists who see playing live music as a way to interface with the audience, rather than just "play at them." They see it as a time to communicate with the audience, which is why TONS of bands and live acts will change parts of the show depending on what the audience is doing. Artists aren't some holy grail of music. They're nothing without listeners. Get over it :D derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

derek wrote:

quoted 9 lines At 03:25 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, omz wrote:

> At 03:25 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, omz wrote: > >this thread is bor-ing > > > > > >for the love of god, enough already > > There's more people than just you on this mailing list. > > Sorry to burst your bubble.

no way man. there are like seven people on this list. -k --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 01:50 PM 4/19/2002 -0700, you wrote:

quoted 12 lines derek wrote:

>derek wrote: > > At 03:25 PM 4/19/2002 -0500, omz wrote: > > >this thread is bor-ing > > > > > > > > >for the love of god, enough already > > > > There's more people than just you on this mailing list. > > > > Sorry to burst your bubble. > >no way man. there are like seven people on this list.

oh please. there are at LEAST 11. Remember, we had 2 new people join just last week. derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line One interesting thing is that "live performace", as in a bunch of guys

> One interesting thing is that "live performace", as in a bunch of guys

rocking

quoted 1 line out on stage, does not necessarily mean fresh performance. A few months

> out on stage, does not necessarily mean fresh performance. A few months

ago,

quoted 1 line Michael Northam played a piece which had been made the previous week, I

> Michael Northam played a piece which had been made the previous week, I

find

quoted 1 line this more spontaneous than a rock band playing the same tunes over and

> this more spontaneous than a rock band playing the same tunes over and

over

quoted 1 line every night for weeks on end...

> every night for weeks on end...

Totally agreed...there's alot of points i'd like to make on these issues, but i can definitely chime in here. One of the exciting things about alot of artists i know and go to see is hearing them "drop" a new track, something they've been tweaking, or something totally new that they are sneaking into a mix....which is the same appeal when seeing dj/producers, you know they're going to drop something fresh and exciting, something you (and maybe nobody else...) has heard before... - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

and that is exactly why i prefer idm live to in my livig room (though private listening is often fun) live is good because it's visceral, immediate, and "realer"--theatrics are nice sometimes, but not necessary--what is necessary is good workmanship and an appreciative crowd... blake/ --- cutups <cutup@andythepooh.com> wrote:

quoted 36 lines One interesting thing is that "live performace",

> > One interesting thing is that "live performace", > as in a bunch of guys > rocking > > out on stage, does not necessarily mean fresh > performance. A few months > ago, > > Michael Northam played a piece which had been made > the previous week, I > find > > this more spontaneous than a rock band playing the > same tunes over and > over > > every night for weeks on end... > > > Totally agreed...there's alot of points i'd like to > make on these issues, > but i can definitely chime > in here. One of the exciting things about alot of > artists i know and go to > see is hearing > them "drop" a new track, something they've been > tweaking, or something > totally new > that they are sneaking into a mix....which is the > same appeal when seeing > dj/producers, > you know they're going to drop something fresh and > exciting, something you > (and maybe nobody else...) > has heard before... > > - cutups > > >

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quoted 5 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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squarepusher/richard devine/anti-pop consortium-last year on the frying pan/NYC...that was an amazing show...i dunno if they 'cared" about us..i don't care if they did or didnt...met d'atachi, yapped w/ hrvatski, got crunk on various imported beers, ales, and lagers and danced around with women my girlfriend @ the time had no idea about... and plaid from this year & last year was an entertaining experience...if you don't think yr gonna see anything, don't look onstage!!! dance and yap you introverted insular bias... peace/1 tidewatergemfish

I wrote:

quoted 7 lines 'tape music', prepared compositions. We'll have good speakers

>> 'tape music', prepared compositions. We'll have good speakers >> (hopefully a quad system plus 4 pair house speakers), >> so the sound will be better than most can muster at home -- but I >> *really* don't know if people will come out for, or be satisfied with, >> a show that's devoid of "performance". I'm going to try to speak a bit >> to this stuff up front, and ask the artists to say a few words about >> their work, in hopes of steering expectations. I'll report back

and Andy asked:

quoted 1 line So, how did it go? If you have done this already, that is.

> So, how did it go? If you have done this already, that is.

All in all I am quiet pleased. To my surprise, I think we had the best turn-out yet, it was quite full and I'd say we had around 100 people in and out. It was quite gratifying to have that people show up simply to listen -- even more so since I really don't know where many of them are coming from; there seems to be a draw from a lot of different communities. For the most part the audience seems well educated -- or at least very open minded. I'll take the liberty of quoting from one of the attendees to wrote me after show; I would say these comments mean that at least for that person, I succeeded in creating exactly the environment I hoped to: "great event friday, many thanx. really pleasurable to listen to quiet composed work in that relaxed public context and to share that hipnogogic body space and somcognizant cinematic imagination with the artists and all present, one that, for me, is a very solitary activity. definitely a testament to the space and your intentions to bring this work out as you are doing. it was truely engaging to move through that auditory space and encounter other bodies, someone's sleep shiftings, and startled awakenings; through pleasure, displeasure and indifference to the work, all those different layers of proxy listening and presence." Re: sleeping, Steve Roden introduced his (amazing) 45-minute piece with the comment that he and his wife have often fallen asleep to it. It was quite an experience to have a whole house-full (~90-100 people?) of people sprawled out, some intent, some drifting in and out of sleep state, while the piece unfolded over the better part of an hour. We did have a few technical glitches hear and there with the sound system -- it was the most sophisticated setup to date, with two independent PAs facing one another, in addition to fill from 4 pair stereo speakers -- but I don't think that was a major detraction. Moving forward, I imagine I'll do another night like this sometime -- and it's nice to know that if the occasional prepared piece finds itself on the bill, the audience doesn't have a problem with it. Incidentally -- if anyone missed my earlier spam, I'm always open to proposals for performances here in San Francisco; write me if you want me to send you the call-for-proposals. best, aaron ghede@well.com http://www.quietamerican.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org