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Supertramp - Breakfast in America What??? Don't get me wrong, very good album, but Prog? -Donna

quoted 31 lines Prog Top 10

> > >Prog Top 10 > >Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon >Genesis - Lamb Lies Down on Broaday >Yes - Tales from Topographic Oceans >Emerson Lake & Palmer - Tarkus >Jethro Tull - Passion Play >Supertramp - Breakfast in America >King Crimson - Islands >Focus - Focus >Can - Soon over Babaluma >Starcastle - Starcastle > >imo, of course... > >tom w > >np: la!NEU? - live in dusseldorf > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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Supertramp=Pop and extremely BAD pop IMHO To each his own...

quoted 21 lines Supertramp - Breakfast in America

>Supertramp - Breakfast in America >What??? Don't get me wrong, very good album, but Prog? >-Donna >> >> >>Prog Top 10 >> >>Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon >>Genesis - Lamb Lies Down on Broaday >>Yes - Tales from Topographic Oceans >>Emerson Lake & Palmer - Tarkus >>Jethro Tull - Passion Play >>Supertramp - Breakfast in America >>King Crimson - Islands >>Focus - Focus >>Can - Soon over Babaluma >>Starcastle - Starcastle >> >>imo, of course... >> >>tom w

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On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, donna summer wrote:

quoted 3 lines Supertramp - Breakfast in America

> Supertramp - Breakfast in America > What??? Don't get me wrong, very good album, but Prog? > -Donna

Personally, I don't think Pink Floyd or Can are prog either and I think they generally made "tasteful" music. Neither had any sort of classical pretensions and all that kind of nonsense. I have to admit that in highschool there was a period when I enjoyed ELP's "Trilogy". Dude, they do a version of Aaron Copland's "Hoedown" ! You know, the tune from all those "beef is what's for dinner" commercials in the US ? Another group besides King Crimson who were undeniably prog and also made very twisted and pretty bearable music were Henry Cow (Fred Frith's old group). I'd say the same about some of Zappa's stuff. And actually, I think John Zorn's Naked City were the ultimate, listenable and unpretentious (imo) prog band. // Andrei

quoted 18 lines Prog Top 10

> >Prog Top 10 > > > >Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon > >Genesis - Lamb Lies Down on Broaday > >Yes - Tales from Topographic Oceans > >Emerson Lake & Palmer - Tarkus > >Jethro Tull - Passion Play > >Supertramp - Breakfast in America > >King Crimson - Islands > >Focus - Focus > >Can - Soon over Babaluma > >Starcastle - Starcastle > > > >imo, of course... > > > >tom w > > > >np: la!NEU? - live in dusseldorf

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quoted 9 lines On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, donna summer wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, donna summer wrote: > >> Supertramp - Breakfast in America >> What??? Don't get me wrong, very good album, but Prog? >> -Donna > >Personally, I don't think Pink Floyd or Can are prog either and I think >they generally made "tasteful" music. Neither had any sort of classical >pretensions and all that kind of nonsense.

I know a lot of prog-heads who would disagree about Can. Many view them as the ultimate prog band (well Krautrock really, but we are splitting hairs..)

quoted 2 lines And actually, I think John Zorn's Naked City were the ultimate, listenable

>And actually, I think John Zorn's Naked City were the ultimate, listenable >and unpretentious (imo) prog band.

Naked City rule. -- ^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^- omz beautamous loaf recordings http://www.hotweird.com/loaf/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, omz wrote:

quoted 13 lines On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, donna summer wrote:

> >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, donna summer wrote: > > > >> Supertramp - Breakfast in America > >> What??? Don't get me wrong, very good album, but Prog? > >> -Donna > > > >Personally, I don't think Pink Floyd or Can are prog either and I think > >they generally made "tasteful" music. Neither had any sort of classical > >pretensions and all that kind of nonsense. > > I know a lot of prog-heads who would disagree about Can. Many view > them as the ultimate prog band (well Krautrock really, but we are > splitting hairs..)

The way I tend to look at it is that there is "prog" rock and then there's "art" or "experimental" rock. And there are quite a few bands who were both imo. I see Can as an art rock band. What I associate with prog is excess, technical pyrotechnics and "classical" pretensions. Art rock had much less to do with technical prowess and more to do with all sorts of crazy experimentation. For example I think Wire and This Heat were great art rock bands. I think art rock people tended to forget a lot less than the prog people that "complexity" isn't what makes rock music interesting. Andrei --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, andrei wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, andrei wrote: > >The way I tend to look at it is that there is "prog" rock and then there's >"art" or "experimental" rock. And there are quite a few bands who were >both imo. I see Can as an art rock band.

Well 'art rock,' whatever you may define that to be, would definitely fall under the umbrella of 'progressive.'

quoted 2 lines What I associate with prog is excess, technical pyrotechnics and

>What I associate with prog is excess, technical pyrotechnics and >"classical" pretensions.

Well you have listened to one to many Emerson, Lake and Palmer records :) (who suck IMO) -- ^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^- omz beautamous loaf recordings http://www.hotweird.com/loaf/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, omz wrote:

quoted 8 lines On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, andrei wrote:

> >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, andrei wrote: > > > >The way I tend to look at it is that there is "prog" rock and then there's > >"art" or "experimental" rock. And there are quite a few bands who were > >both imo. I see Can as an art rock band. > > Well 'art rock,' whatever you may define that to be, would > definitely fall under the umbrella of 'progressive.'

Well, I find the whole notion of "progressive" rock, or any kind of "progressive" music, a laughable one. Yes and all the bands of their ilk didn't do anything to help the "progression" of rock music. It was a step in the wrong direction, imo. They mostly missed the point about what rock music's functions are. I think the bands that usually have something vital to say tend to be musically pretty "dumb", by prog standards. I'm not saying Hendrix's music was dumb, but I think he did more to advance rock music than any pseudo-aristocratic band of Englishmen. There's nothing I find more barf inducing than admiration for rock musicians' technical skills. My opinion is that if you really are interested in "advanced" music and want to be a musician, and not an entertainer, who people admire for his skills as a musician you shouldn't get involved in any sort of pop music. Unless you think Steve Vai is a genius. Pop music is not about advancing the state of music.

quoted 4 lines What I associate with prog is excess, technical pyrotechnics and

> >What I associate with prog is excess, technical pyrotechnics and > >"classical" pretensions. > > Well you have listened to one to many Emerson, Lake and Palmer records :)

I guess one is one too many. // Andrei --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

on 3/13/02 6:42 PM, Andrei at andrei@world.std.com scrawled:

quoted 1 line Pop music is not about advancing the state of music.

> Pop music is not about advancing the state of music.

Marrs' Pump up the Volume The Beattles Seargent Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band Run DMC's self titled debut album were these not pop music? ~g --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Greg Smith wrote:

quoted 9 lines on 3/13/02 6:42 PM, Andrei at andrei@world.std.com scrawled:

> on 3/13/02 6:42 PM, Andrei at andrei@world.std.com scrawled: > > > Pop music is not about advancing the state of music. > > Marrs' Pump up the Volume > The Beattles Seargent Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band > Run DMC's self titled debut album > > were these not pop music?

Yes within the context of pop music, but within the context of all music you could probably make some convincing arguments against them. When I made that comment I was speaking in a sort of absolute sense. Don't get me wrong I think The Beatles and Run DMC are great, but simply musically speaking what advances did they make ? The Beatles were geniuses, but they didn't revolutionize the concepts of harmony or melody. And spoken word, sampling and the use of drum machines were around a long time before Run DMC. I think these people made more of a social impact which is what pop music is good at, imo. I think Hendrix is one of the only pop musicians I can think of who clearly brought something new to the table in a general sense (an approach to playing the guitar which changed things henceforth). I think the most important thing progers failed to understand is that what pop music is great at is dealing with social mores, not musical issues. If you look at all the seminal figures in pop music history (Elvis, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, Sex Pistols, etc.) you'll see that their impact has more to do with socio-political issues than with some sort of revolutionary musical statement. Andrei --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Andrei <andrei@world.std.com> wrote (in part): : If you look at all the seminal figures in pop music history (Elvis, Bob : Dylan, The Beatles, Sex Pistols, etc.) you'll see that their impact has : more to do with socio-political issues than with some sort of : revolutionary musical statement. It helped that they used musical forms that, although not originating with them, weren't overused or even that widely known at the time. Both medium AND message. -Ed --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

on 3/13/02 11:39 PM, Andrei at andrei@world.std.com scrawled:

quoted 10 lines Don't get me wrong I think The Beatles and Run DMC are great, but simply

> Don't get me wrong I think The Beatles and Run DMC are great, but simply > musically speaking what advances did they make ? > The Beatles were geniuses, but they didn't revolutionize the concepts of > harmony or melody. And spoken word, sampling and the use of drum machines > were around a long time before Run DMC. I think these people made more of > a social impact which is what pop music is good at, imo. > I think Hendrix is one of the only pop musicians I can think of who > clearly brought something new to the table in a general sense (an approach > to playing the guitar which changed things henceforth). >

You are on point. I was just trying to poke holes in your hardline statement. I notice you didn't say anything about the marss record though, which of course was a seminal 80's track and for all intensive purposes introduced a *lot* of people to sampling. Granted pop music that signals the beginning of a new era may be more about time and place, or the artists charisma then musical talent but breakthrough artists do deserve some credit.

quoted 7 lines I think the most important thing progers failed to understand is that what

> I think the most important thing progers failed to understand is that what > pop music is great at is dealing with social mores, not musical issues. If > you look at all the seminal figures in pop music history (Elvis, Bob > Dylan, The Beatles, Sex Pistols, etc.) you'll see that their impact has > more to do with socio-political issues than with some sort of > revolutionary musical statement. >

Correct, what else would you expect from a society that likes easy to digest narrative so much? Still though, think about the discussion on this list.. lots of artists get hyped because of the software they are using isn't that social? DItto for (non John Oswald) illicit remixes. Who gives a fuck what you can do to <insert hated pop artist here>'s radio hits? That is about as old as taking a coporate logo/slogan and being all clever like and subverting it into something oh so opposite of what it originally was. ~g (fishing not trolling) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 7 lines On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, andrei wrote:

> > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, andrei wrote: > > > >Well, I find the whole notion of "progressive" rock, or any kind of >"progressive" music, a laughable one. Yes and all the bands of their ilk >didn't do anything to help the "progression" of rock music. It was a step >in the wrong direction, imo. They mostly missed the point about what rock >music's functions are.

I'm not really talking about 'Yes and all the bands of their ilk'...When I think of progressive rock I think of Amon Duul II, Heldon, Pulsar, Lard Free, Kraftwerk, Agitation Free, Ash Ra Tempel, and so on and so on. And if you want to hear where this 'IDM' music we all know and love originated, give Cluster 'Zuckerzeit' a listen ...now that is some progressive shit! Circa 1975/6...and actually Can's 'Tago Mago' was one of the first records I can think of to use a drum machine, that was around 1970.

quoted 2 lines I'm not saying Hendrix's music was dumb, but I think he did more to

>I'm not saying Hendrix's music was dumb, but I think he did more to >advance rock music than any pseudo-aristocratic band of Englishmen.

It's all about the Germans, the French, the Italians...they did way more to advance music than most 'Englishmen'... -- ________________________ omz beautamous loaf recordings http://www.hotweird.com/loaf --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, omz wrote:

quoted 4 lines I'm not really talking about 'Yes and all the bands of their

> I'm not really talking about 'Yes and all the bands of their > ilk'...When I think of progressive rock I think of Amon Duul II, > Heldon, Pulsar, Lard Free, Kraftwerk, Agitation Free, Ash Ra Tempel, > and so on and so on.

I think where you and I disagree is in our uses of the term "progressive". I think you use "progressive" as an adjective, while I mean "Progressive" (with a capital P) as a strain of rock music with particular traits.

quoted 5 lines And if you want to hear where this 'IDM' music we all know and love

> And if you want to hear where this 'IDM' music we all know and love > originated, give Cluster 'Zuckerzeit' a listen ...now that is some > progressive shit! Circa 1975/6...and actually Can's 'Tago Mago' was > one of the first records I can think of to use a drum machine, that > was around 1970.

Yes, I'm very familiar with those records and think they're great. For proto IDM I'd also suggest the first Harmonia album. Andrei --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org