IDM Mailing Archive

The way I understand the twelve tone scale is... well, take a piano. between the middle C and the C an octave up, there are twelve tones. now, a major scale is built out of those tones, using seven of the tones. building off of the major scale (and into other octaves), you create chords that 'work' together and now you have a major 'key'... everything is harmonically sound... NOW, what Schoenberg was trying to do (correct me if i am wrong here), is treat each of those original 12 tones (from C to C) equally, without bias towards traditional harmonic assumptions. it is a mathamatical system that ensures that all notes are given equal weight through out a piece (though everyone cheats a little). The outcome is confusing, confounding, sublime pieces that are not easy to hum along to. While I very very much enjoy Schoenberg's music, people tend to hate him for his malicious destruction of all that was "good" in classical music previous to his tirade. His disciple, Anton Webern, I believe took his theories a step further, and with(imo) more listenable results. nat. np: please smile my noise bleed

quoted 17 lines From: "d_jak" <d_jak@netzero.net>

>From: "d_jak" <d_jak@netzero.net> >To: "idm" <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: [idm] [OT] 12 tone? >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:52:11 -0400 > >pardon the ot post, but i know one of you all will be able to help: > >my knowledge of "classical" music is not what i'd like it to be and i've >been trying to change that lately. so, recently, i was reading an article >about schoenberg and there was much discussion of his invention of the >twelve tone system. unfortunately, i didn't get a real clear picture of >exactly what the twelve tone system is and how it compares to a traditional >western scale structure. can someone give me an explanation? > >thanks. > >-d

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On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, zachary mastoon wrote:

quoted 7 lines this is true. schoenberg used matrices as well as inverted the staff

> this is true. schoenberg used matrices as well as inverted the staff > vertically or horizontally for thematic variations. from what i understand, > he'd also create "keys" by constructing triads irregardless of their > intervallic space- so, for instance, a triad could be c,c#, and d! its > fascinating from a conceptual standpoint but, at the same time, it's all > quite fucked when you think about it. :) he basically took wagner or > stravinsky and erased ALL resolve- well, resolve as people knew it then.

[sarcasm] you guys wanna hear something even more wacky and fucked up? check out some of that "eastern" and "oriental" music coming out, they only use 5 notes in their scale (aka pentatonic)! it's soooo experimental and groundbreaking! all those wacky asians are giving a big "FUCK YOU!" to beethoven! he's gotten boring ever since his "greatest hits" quadruple 12" anyway... [/sarcasm] -j --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

sarcasm noted... though i'm not sure i agree with your implied point. those wacky asian scales usually being based on obvious points on the overtone series that we can easily hear. the 'problem' of 12-tone music is that takes a scale thats not particularly in tune to begin with (equal temperament) and generates a thicket of sound that baffles the ears. that said, i love a lot of Schoenberg's music. it's full of ideas and you don't have to understand his procedures to get a lot out of the music. k

quoted 20 lines O

>O >n Thu, 25 Oct 2001, zachary mastoon wrote: >> this is true. schoenberg used matrices as well as inverted the staff >> vertically or horizontally for thematic variations. from what i understand, > > he'd also create "keys" by constructing triads irregardless of their >> intervallic space- so, for instance, a triad could be c,c#, and d! its >> fascinating from a conceptual standpoint but, at the same time, it's all >> quite fucked when you think about it. :) he basically took wagner or >> stravinsky and erased ALL resolve- well, resolve as people knew it then. > >[sarcasm] > you guys wanna hear something even more wacky and fucked up? >check out some of that "eastern" and "oriental" music coming out, they >only use 5 notes in their scale (aka pentatonic)! it's soooo experimental >and groundbreaking! all those wacky asians are giving a big "FUCK YOU!" >to beethoven! he's gotten boring ever since his "greatest hits" >quadruple 12" anyway... >[/sarcasm] > >-j

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. the 'problem' of 12-tone music is

quoted 3 lines that takes a scale thats not particularly in tune to begin with

> that takes a scale thats not particularly in tune to begin with > (equal temperament) and generates a thicket of sound that baffles the > ears.

ive never heard of 12 tone being non equally tempered heres my idea of 12 tone music not that anyone on this list gives a hoot about my ideas: "an atonal style of music in which theres a systematic avoidance of a tonal center" here are certain procedures in shoenbbergs ideas before he developed 12 tone compositions: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- 1.avoidance of the 8ve, either as melodic component or harmonic interval 2. avoidance of traditional pitch collections, that is, any that might suggest major or minor triads, and hence a tonic 3. avoidance of more than three succesive pitches that might be identified with the same diatonic scale 4. use of wide-ranging and extremely disjunct melodies ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ the principles mentioned above continued to hold true in much of shoenberg's 12 tone music his system was designed to methodically equalize all pitches of the dodecaphonic scale by the following means: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- 1. A twelve tone composistion is to be based on arrangement or series of the 12 pitches that is detemined by the composer. This arrangement is the tone row or set 2. No pitch may be repeated until all other pitches have been sounded. There is one exception to this restriction: a pitch may be repreated immediately after it is heard. Repitition may also occur within the context of a trill or tremolo figure. 3. The tone row may, within the confines of the system, legitimately be used in retrograde (reversed order), inversion (mirroring of each interval), or retrograde inversion (reverse order of the mirrored form). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ -this being said i can see how a composer may choose 12 tones that are un equally tempered as well as 12 tones equally tempered that have unconvetional intervals example of the latter the 1st 12 tones of a 21 tet scale which would sound out of tune could please inform me of some 12 tone songs that do not use equally tempered scales --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines Your ideas about 12 tone music seem right to me (sounds like you know

> Your ideas about 12 tone music seem right to me (sounds like you know > a lot more about it than I do!)

this is my idea: "an atonal style of music in which theres a systematic avoidance of a tonal center" the rest came from a text book so you probably know more than me although i have tried impromptu 12 tone on the guitar following those rules --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i

quoted 3 lines have tried

> have tried > impromptu 12 tone on the guitar following those rules >

i gave it up and just used the whole tone scale when i want a lack of tonal center its much easier to impromptu with the whole tone scale than trying to remember if youve played all 12 notes yet and not playing triads whew also its a lot easier to jam with other musicians using the whole tone scale i think if i'm not mistaken the whole tone scale was used a lot in the romantic period before 12 tone came about wheres the next step maybe fractal music maybe engineered timberes using non tempered scales maybe fractal generated non tempered scales maybe we can figure out a way to control the magnetosphere or better yet we could send signals to the sun that would cause solar flares that produced radio waves in the atmosphere i could see those polar satelite observers freaking out instead of the arora borealis radio waves sounding like whales or crickets or dolphins we could make them sound like jimi hendrix or something --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org