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Re: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF

7 messages · 7 participants · spans 3 days · search this subject
2001-05-31 00:37Ron Jeremy [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
2001-06-01 21:32Kevin Ryan @ Re: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
├─ 2001-06-02 00:30Alex Morken RE: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
│ └─ 2001-06-02 16:32Kent williams RE: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
│ └─ 2001-06-02 16:49Gil RE: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
└─ 2001-06-02 01:17William Samuels Re: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
2001-06-02 03:04Kurt Hoffman Re: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
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2001-05-31 00:37Ron JeremyTaken from www.plus8.com may 2001 i've been sitting here listening, watching and reading a
From:
Ron Jeremy
To:
Date:
Wed, 30 May 2001 17:37:30 -0700
Subject:
[idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
permalink · <F66ZqHigblgAXtha3IC00009021@hotmail.com>
Taken from www.plus8.com may 2001 i've been sitting here listening, watching and reading about everything that has been going on with this year's demf. for a while i really didn't know what to say... many people have already shown their support for Carl in letters, emails and faxes, but at a time like this, i feel we need everyone's support. i'm saddened to hear only silence from a great many of the artists whose voices would hold so much weight in such a situation. this is not a time for people to worry about themselves, or their short-term career goals, this is about something much bigger than that. the firing of Carl Craig is a direct attack on what i thought we all held so close to our hearts, our music. Carl was our assurance that no matter who was organizing or sponsoring the festival, that the integrity of our music would be upheld. out of all the people i've met in detroit over the years, Carl has stood fast to his beliefs and has worked hard to get to the position he is in. Carl isn't perfect (who is?), but who else could fill his shoes. with his wide musical knowledge and global perspective, Carl had the foresight to look beyond detroit to celebrate not only the music's past, but also its future. this is not a genre that can rest on its laurels -- or celebrate only its history. it is today that matters, and tomorrow that is important. Richie Hawtin ps. hope to see everyone this weekend at the demf! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-06-01 21:32Kevin Ryan @<<the firing of Carl Craig is a direct attack on what i thought we all held so close to ou
From:
Kevin Ryan @
To:
Date:
Fri, 01 Jun 2001 21:32:12 -0000
Subject:
Re: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
permalink · <F217S7hx27kBnccYTjr0000adc4@hotmail.com>
<<the firing of Carl Craig is a direct attack on what i thought we all held so close to our hearts, our music.>> Oh, boo hoo. Mr. Hawtin, allow me to introduce you to capitalism. Capitalism, Mr. Hawtin. No, the pleasure is mine. Craig's dismissal wasn't the critical juncture of "direct attack" on underground music; it was when Craig sold his soul to the Co.s a couple years ago that the real selling out occurred. The rest isn't particularly surprising. Although there was inevitably personal politics involved, the corporations honestly realize that they don't have a clue about what's cool re: electronic music... that's why they deferred to a local techno magnate in the first place. They could've booked Oakey/Moby from day one but they knew better. Besides, Carl's hands aren't totally clean in all of this, and we have to remember he's the one who decided to sign a deal with the Devil. He thrust himself into the middle of the corporate melee and now he's paying for it. Among all this facile corporation bashing most people seem to have forgotten that the corporations are the only reason that DEMF is possible in the first place. If you can throw a collosal free techno festival at the Hart Plaza, by all means, do. But as long as the proverbial Man is footing the bill, where do we get off with the hubris to assume that everything should go according to our wishes? DEMF, through better and worse, is nothing more than a marketing experiment. If they book a bunch of crap next year, I won't go back. But I'm not about to flail around whining about how a free party doesn't book my personal favorite styles of music. (Sorry for the flame bait, but I just wanted to offer a slightly different perspective. I'm not pretending like I have any idea what's happening behind the scenes, I'm just trying to look at the big picture from afar. If you can school me on where I've gone astray, please do.) np: "Man Parrish - Hip Hop Be Bop (L Ray Robison Remix) 11:09" from Napster... It's nothing like Man Parrish, but it's a kick-ass track... Everything great about disco meets contemporary breaks... Any idea where this comes from? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-06-02 00:30Alex Morken<<the firing of Carl Craig is a direct attack on what i thought we all held so close to ou
From:
Alex Morken
To:
Date:
Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:30:08 -0500
Subject:
RE: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
Reply to:
Re: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
permalink · <NFBBIGDFOLJCPPLIHHLLKEKECGAA.amorken@biosci.umn.edu>
<<the firing of Carl Craig is a direct attack on what i thought we all held so close to our hearts, our music.>>
quoted 1 line Oh, boo hoo.>Oh, boo hoo.
quoted 2 lines Mr. Hawtin, allow me to introduce you to capitalism. Capitalism, Mr.>Mr. Hawtin, allow me to introduce you to capitalism. Capitalism, Mr. >Hawtin. No, the pleasure is mine.
Who said he agreed with capitalism?
quoted 1 line Among all this facile corporation bashing most people seem to have>Among all this facile corporation bashing most people seem to have
forgotten
quoted 1 line that the corporations are the only reason that DEMF is possible in the>that the corporations are the only reason that DEMF is possible in the
first
quoted 1 line place.>place.
Just because corporations sponsored it and because they were the only ones that could afford to throw it does not mean that it could have _only_ occurred under these circumstances. It is good that they did but as you later point out they had ulterior motives.
quoted 7 lines If you can throw a collosal free techno festival at the Hart Plaza,>If you can throw a collosal free techno festival at the Hart Plaza, >by all means, do. But as long as the proverbial Man is footing the bill, >where do we get off with the hubris to assume that everything should go >according to our wishes? DEMF, through better and worse, is nothing more >than a marketing experiment. If they book a bunch of crap next year, I >won't go back. But I'm not about to flail around whining about how a free >party doesn't book my personal favorite styles of music.
Not all free parties are commercial endeavors. It just so happens that they were the only ones that had the loot to pay for it. Which I think is wrong within itself. I know this email lacks many points, but I am only choosing to make one point: There was no other choice than to have corporations sponser it in the current capitalistic situation that we live in and the corporations control 85% or more of the wealth and choose what people will hear, which I beleive is wrong. For more info on this see the frontline special "Merchants of Cool" as a starting point. --Alex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-06-02 16:32Kent williamsOn Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Alex Morken wrote: > >Mr. Hawtin, allow me to introduce you to capital
From:
Kent williams
To:
Alex Morken
Cc:
Date:
Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:32:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:
RE: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
Reply to:
RE: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
permalink · <Pine.HPP.3.96.1010602105214.7669C-100000@arthur.avalon.net>
On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Alex Morken wrote:
quoted 5 lines Mr. Hawtin, allow me to introduce you to capitalism. Capitalism, Mr.> >Mr. Hawtin, allow me to introduce you to capitalism. Capitalism, Mr. > >Hawtin. No, the pleasure is mine. > > Who said he agreed with capitalism? >
If you saw how nice Richie's shoes are, you'd know that he's no enemy of capitalism. But that's really beside the point. Richie is a really smart businessman, and his success as a capitalist enables him to spend the money on his art. Carl Craig is an artist, and a capitalist as well. And a fan of quality footwear. The whole controversy over Craig's firing arises from an intense difference of opinion between Carol Marvin of Pop Culture, and Mr. Craig about the direction of the festival. Mr. Craig collaborated willingly with the corporate sponsors of DEMF, and to their credit, the corporate sponsors were willing to give him a free hand to determine the artistic content of the festival. The result was stunning, at least to me -- Almost without exception the artist line-up was chosen for artistic qualities over aboveground commercial appeal. What's more, something like 1.5 million people of all ages, races, and fashion sense were exposed to amazing music -- some for the very first time. Logistical problems were few -- the worst being the crush in the Underground stage for Autechre. As far as I know there were fewer arrests than would be expected for any crowd of that size. In Detroit, at least, the distinction between the music and the scarier aspects of rave culture were made crystal clear. The complete invisibility of Pop Culture and Carol at the event, the ubiquitous signs of support for Craig, and the pointed statements from the Mayor's office recognizing Craig's contribution, all make for a moral victory at least. Keep this in mind: this was a free event, comparable in size to the last Woodstock where everything ran smoothly and everyone went home safe and happy. and we all know what happened at the last Woodstock! Capitalism works best when it's balanced by a sense of Communitarianism -- where the urge for personal gain is balanced by altruism. When greed holds sway everyone suffers, and when no one is taking care of business, everybody suffers. When there's a synergy between Capital and Community, both can prosper, and DEMF 2001 proved this to a fare-thee-well. As for capital A Art and Capitalism, a similar balance has to exist. Not all art can be made in the shed out back for free. Sometimes the scale of the project requires big money, and there's no other option than to cooperate with the people who cut the checks. It's not necessarily a bad thing -- corporate patronage is all that keeps symphony orchestras playing in this country, and no one complains about that. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-06-02 16:49GilHats off to Kent, who still has brain cells left after DEMF :) -Gil with anti-capitalist s
From:
Gil
To:
Kent williams
Cc:
IDM list
Date:
Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:49:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
RE: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
Reply to:
RE: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
permalink · <Pine.LNX.4.10.10106021247350.26915-100000@nowhere.fragment.com>
Hats off to Kent, who still has brain cells left after DEMF :) -Gil with anti-capitalist shoes On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Kent williams wrote:
quoted 60 lines On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Alex Morken wrote:> On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Alex Morken wrote: > > >Mr. Hawtin, allow me to introduce you to capitalism. Capitalism, Mr. > > >Hawtin. No, the pleasure is mine. > > > > Who said he agreed with capitalism? > > > If you saw how nice Richie's shoes are, you'd know that he's no enemy > of capitalism. But that's really beside the point. Richie is a really > smart businessman, and his success as a capitalist enables him to > spend the money on his art. > > Carl Craig is an artist, and a capitalist as well. And a fan of > quality footwear. > > The whole controversy over Craig's firing arises from an intense difference > of opinion between Carol Marvin of Pop Culture, and Mr. Craig about the > direction of the festival. Mr. Craig collaborated willingly with the > corporate sponsors of DEMF, and to their credit, the corporate sponsors > were willing to give him a free hand to determine the artistic content > of the festival. > > The result was stunning, at least to me -- Almost without exception > the artist line-up was chosen for artistic qualities over aboveground > commercial appeal. What's more, something like 1.5 million people of > all ages, races, and fashion sense were exposed to amazing music -- some > for the very first time. > > Logistical problems were few -- the worst being the crush in the Underground > stage for Autechre. As far as I know there were fewer arrests than would > be expected for any crowd of that size. In Detroit, at least, the distinction > between the music and the scarier aspects of rave culture were made crystal > clear. > > The complete invisibility of Pop Culture and Carol at the event, the > ubiquitous signs of support for Craig, and the pointed statements from > the Mayor's office recognizing Craig's contribution, all make for > a moral victory at least. > > Keep this in mind: this was a free event, comparable in size to the > last Woodstock where everything ran smoothly and everyone went home > safe and happy. and we all know what happened at the last Woodstock! > > Capitalism works best when it's balanced by a sense of Communitarianism -- > where the urge for personal gain is balanced by altruism. When greed > holds sway everyone suffers, and when no one is taking care of business, > everybody suffers. When there's a synergy between Capital and > Community, both can prosper, and DEMF 2001 proved this to a fare-thee-well. > > As for capital A Art and Capitalism, a similar balance has to exist. > Not all art can be made in the shed out back for free. Sometimes the > scale of the project requires big money, and there's no other option > than to cooperate with the people who cut the checks. It's not > necessarily a bad thing -- corporate patronage is all that keeps symphony > orchestras playing in this country, and no one complains about that. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2001-06-02 01:17William Samuels--- "Kevin Ryan @" <i__oo__@hotmail.com> wrote: > <<the firing of Carl Craig is a direct a
From:
William Samuels
To:
Kevin Ryan @ ,
Date:
Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:17:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
Reply to:
Re: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
permalink · <20010602011705.54026.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com>
--- "Kevin Ryan @" <i__oo__@hotmail.com> wrote:
quoted 3 lines <<the firing of Carl Craig is a direct attack on> <<the firing of Carl Craig is a direct attack on > what i thought we all held > so close to our hearts, our music.>>
<< Oh, boo hoo. Mr. Hawtin, allow me to introduce you to capitalism. Capitalism, Mr. Hawtin. No, the pleasure is mine. >> We are all familiar with capitalism. The majority of the recording industry has demonstrated that it's more about shifting units than it is about art. It's pretty much the "underground artists" that are keeping it real. Richie Hawtin sounded sincere about keeping the music integrity of the event. I feel the same way, as I'm sure most everyone that's on this list and 313 that went feel. << Craig's dismissal wasn't the critical juncture of "direct attack" on underground music; >> Not on a global scale, no. On the local Detroit scene it may feel like a "direct attack". The Stateside recognition of Detroit and it's history has always been underrepresented. To have an event that celebrates it's history and scene turn into something commercial would be a sad thing. Therefore, I can understand what Richie Hawtin was expressing. << it was when Craig sold his soul to the Co.s a couple years ago that the real selling out occurred.
quoted 1 line>>
Artist-wise the event didn't seem like a sellout in my opinion. I was quite impressed with the line-up which was Carl Craig's doing. I don't really care if it took having a few cars or a few Barcardi ads to make it happen. The MUSIC is what matters! << The rest isn't particularly surprising. Although there was inevitably personal politics involved, the corporations honestly realize that they don't have a clue about what's cool re: electronic music... that's why they deferred to a local techno magnate in the first place. >> The fact that something as cool as this happened in the U.S. is quite surprising. The fact that it was a free event of this magnitude and music integrity is mind-blowing. Sure there will be forces that want to jump in and try and make massive $$$ on it and milk it for all they can. That doesn't mean the artists and labels involved shouldn't put a fight to keep it real. << They could've booked Oakey/Moby from day one but they knew better. >> That's will likely be the line up next year, and Kid Rock. << Besides, Carl's hands aren't totally clean in all of this, and we have to remember he's the one who decided to sign a deal with the Devil. >> I wish someone in California would sell their soul to the Devil! Even in Arizona...I'll make the drive! Really good events like this are very rare. < He thrust himself into the middle of the corporate melee and now he's paying for it. > It's not uncommon for corporations to donate money if it improves their image. Not to mention they expose their products to public. << Among all this facile corporation bashing most people seem to have forgotten that the corporations are the only reason that DEMF is possible in the first place. >> I must have missed the corporate bashing bit. Many corporations sponsor events. What's your point? Are you saying Carl deserves getting canned because he worked with the city and sponsors? Don't have time to continue...I got a radio show to do... ===== SWOPE TRANSMISSIONS - FRIDAY Evening 6-9pm (Pacific) http://home.earthlink.net/~efrans/swope-transmissions Listen @ KUCI 88.9Fm Irvine, CA Streaming on the net at http://kuci.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-06-02 03:04Kurt HoffmanKevin Ryan wrote: >as the proverbial Man is footing the bill, >where do we get off with th
From:
Kurt Hoffman
To:
Kevin Ryan @
Cc:
Date:
Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:04:36 -0400
Subject:
Re: [idm] Richie Hawtin's letter regarding the DEMF
permalink · <p05100300b73dfa7df5c9@[216.220.111.86]>
Kevin Ryan wrote:
quoted 2 lines as the proverbial Man is footing the bill,>as the proverbial Man is footing the bill, >where do we get off with the hubris to assume that everything should go
according to our wishes?... I'm not about to flail around whining about how a free
quoted 1 line party doesn't book my personal favorite styles of music.>party doesn't book my personal favorite styles of music.
many times, you don't get what you want if you don't speak up. I respect the complainers. corporations back all sorts of things, in some cases to enhance their credibility as well as promote their brand name. they back stuff like fine arts exhibitions, opera, etc, which lacks the broadest popular appeal, but shows the coporate goliath to be sophisticated and, you know, sensitive. so, it's good if people are putting up a stink about what the festival is about. maybe the backers get the idea that it's more like a serious music festival than like the Grammies. they have something to gain if the festival is a well-respected event; it's already well-attended. does remind me of seeing some pathetically out of place corporate pr guy trying to introduce Ornette Coleman in Battery Park last year. (wasn't even a free concert!) Guess the plug didn't work since I already forgot which corporation sponsored the event, but he gave a little pitch for the company, recited their slogan. Embarrassing. And then Ornette came out and played the most advanced music on earth. k --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org