IDM Mailing Archive

Although I don't own a record label or make music myself I can't understand why people who do get so upset ("fuckface"?) about the whole issue of bootleging, and I think they may be looking at it from the entirely wrong perspective. Try to see it where I'm coming from: I'm a huge AFX fan, fucking massive, I've bought every single thing I can find. And I mean everything, remixes, everything. Still, since I've only been a fan for about 1 1/2 years there are certain things I just can't find: Analogue Bubble Bath 3 on CD, the Caustic Window Joy Rex Eps, Q-Chastic, Power Pill, and the chances of me EVER finding any of these are very slim. Even though I've called countless stores, mail order houses, record finders, etc. no luck. Now imagine you where a Beatles fan, the biggest Beatles fan in the world and couldn't, no matter how hard you looked, find a copy of Sgt. Pepper or The White Album. You can imagine how insanely depressing this might be, especially being able to hear snipets on the web and knowing that other people do have these releases, but you never will and will never have a chance to hear them in their entirerity. If someone were to make a bootleg of these releases, which I cannot find anyway and where no longer in print, how would I be hurting the label? I'm not taking money from it, because it has no competing product, its long gone. But look how happy it would make me? And if the label WERE to come out with re-issues of the material at some later date I would certainly buy them in an instant, in fact I'd probably have them on special order and wait all day in the store until the UPS van pulled up, because the quality of an official release would surely be better than the bootleg. I have bought identical copies of Bootleged material officialy released at a later date (Nirvana Unplugged, unreleased Velvet Underground), and I assume most people willing to shell out the amount of money for bootlegs, being bigger fans than your average, would do the same as well. I have never bought bootleged material where an official release is available, it simply doesn't make sense. Oh well. -Fresh Orange County, California USA ========================================================================= Fullerton College claims no responsibility to the opinion expressed above (This is an automatic stamp from our Email system and not from the user.) =========================================================================

quoted 1 line [...] I don't own a record label or make music myself

> [...] I don't own a record label or make music myself

quoted 2 lines I can't understand why people [...] get so upset [...] about the whole

> I can't understand why people [...] get so upset [...] about the whole > issue of bootleging [sic],

There's your answer. If you owned a label or made music, you would easily understand.

quoted 1 line Try to see it where I'm coming from:

> Try to see it where I'm coming from:

Try to see where Grant's coming from.

quoted 4 lines Still, [...] there are certain things I just can't

> Still, [...] there are certain things I just can't > find: Analogue Bubble Bath 3 on CD, the Caustic Window JoyRex Eps, > Q-Chastic, Power Pill, and the chances of me EVER finding any of these > are very slim.

I would be willing to guess that if I went back through my IDM archives (almost 2 years' worth now, and I didn't even join when it began), I could probably find a posting from someone offering any one of the above for sale. (What ever happened to Des' big Aphex-related selloff?)

quoted 3 lines You can imagine how insanely depressing this might be, [...] knowing that

> You can imagine how insanely depressing this might be, [...] knowing that > other people do have these releases, but you never will and will never have > a chance to hear them in their entirety.

So instead of asking somebody that owns them to make you a "fan" tape of them, you'd rather have someone bootleg them illegally and incur the further rath of the label owner? It's bad enough he already probably thinks of this list as being filled with pathetic young spotty college student trainspotters ... (who keep spouting disinformation about his label/artists, in case you didn't read his most recent missive) Also, consider that there might be people in your own backyard (figuratively speaking) that own these records. I can categorically state that within an hour's drive of your house, *somebody* owns almost all of the records you quoted above. :-)

quoted 1 line But look how happy it would make me?

> But look how happy it would make me?

And of course, your happiness is the only thing that matters here?

quoted 2 lines And if the label WERE to come out with re-issues of the material at some

> And if the label WERE to come out with re-issues of the material at some > later date I would certainly buy them in an instant [...]

But the label may not be in a position to simply repress something that John Q. Trainspotter from Orange County California wants ... I've not been to the RePHLeX HQ but I suspect it's a *wee* bit smaller than, say, the General Motors plant in Van Nuys CA ... this is sort of like complaining to Aston Martin that they don't produce their hand-built cars like all the other robot-equipped production line manufacturers. In short, I think by now everyone on this list should have realized that RePHLeX is a small operation and is thus subject to ups and downs and vagarities that do not impact larger concerns as much; therefore we should be happy with what we get. Does it really *matter* whether "Bluff Limbo" gets re-issued on CD? It's only a record, it's not the 2nd Coming fer chrissakes. Get some perspective, already. (And yes, I am aware that 'way back at age 21, I *did* indeed treat certain records - "154" ... "Unknown Pleasures" - as the 2nd Coming ... (-: ) - Greg

On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Greg Earle wrote:

quoted 4 lines I would be willing to guess that if I went back through my IDM archives

> I would be willing to guess that if I went back through my IDM archives > (almost 2 years' worth now, and I didn't even join when it began), I > could probably find a posting from someone offering any one of the above > for sale. (What ever happened to Des' big Aphex-related selloff?)

Yeah, but how does that help *now* ? :-)

quoted 3 lines So instead of asking somebody that owns them to make you a "fan" tape of them,

> So instead of asking somebody that owns them to make you a "fan" tape of them, > you'd rather have someone bootleg them illegally and incur the further rath of > the label owner?

You seem to be saying making a "fan" cassette copy is ok but a "fan" CD copy is not. I don't see much difference, both are illegal bootlegs, they're just in different formats. Assuming I'm interpreting correctly what you meant correctly, if someone wants to make 20 cassette copies (or even *one* cassette copy) of Caustic Window ep's for 20 idm friends how is that any different than making 20 Cd copies? I'm not siding with one side over the other here, but this seems incongruent. I recognize both sides of the issue but I sort of wonder how anti-bootleg people deal with the issue of cassette copies for friends. Do you never make cassettes? On a related note: Alan, I'm still looking for: B12 - prelude pt 1 CD, Philosophy of Sound and machine CD, Applied Rhythmic Technology CD will pay *at least* $30 each...maybe more. You said most all rare stuff is available (at places like Modern music)...are my wants available *anywhere*? If so please drop me a line...ANYBODY please drop me a line. Respects, Tony

quoted 8 lines On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Greg Earle wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Greg Earle wrote: > >> I would be willing to guess that if I went back through my IDM archives >> (almost 2 years' worth now, and I didn't even join when it began), I >> could probably find a posting from someone offering any one of the above >> for sale. (What ever happened to Des' big Aphex-related selloff?) > > Yeah, but how does that help *now* ? :-)

Point being that from time to time, these things do bubble to the surface and escape. "Patience, young Grasshopper ... "

quoted 11 lines So instead of asking somebody that owns them to make you a fan tape of them,

>> So instead of asking somebody that owns them to make you a fan tape of them, >> you'd rather have someone bootleg them illegally and incur the further rath >> of the label owner? > > You seem to be saying making a "fan" cassette copy is ok but a "fan" CD > copy is not. I don't see much difference, both are illegal bootlegs, they're > just in different formats. Assuming I'm interpreting correctly what you > meant correctly, if someone wants to make 20 cassette copies (or even > *one* cassette copy) of Caustic Window EP's for 20 idm friends how is > that any different than making 20 CD copies? I'm not siding with one > side over the other here, but this seems incongruent.

Who said anything about 20 copies? I was answering Gonzi's particular problem. *He* wants the stuff. I don't think it kills anybody to make a tape for somebody else with some rare trax on it. But when you're talking 20 copies now you're talking "possession with intent to sell", i.e. kinda like getting caught with a blunt as opposed to an oh-zee :-) Besides, if we start talking about 20 or more dups of anything, we're sliding down the slippery slope towards the whole "Ethicality of mix tapes" argument, and Lord knows I got enough of *that* from the SoCal-Raves list before I hopped off ...

quoted 4 lines Philosophy of Sound and machine CD

> Philosophy of Sound and machine CD > > will pay *at least* $30 each...maybe more. You said most all rare stuff is > available (at places like Modern music); are my wants available *anywhere*?

Well, "Philosophy of Sound of Machine" is available in my house :-) Tell you what, buy me a roundtrip to London on 14th so I can catch the RDJ/MS (Mighty Squarepusher) gig, and you can have it :-) - Greg

yes but the key to the whole argument is SELLING the bootlegs to IDM friends...using music that does not belong to you to make money...I guess if you could find someone to MAKE a tape to GIVE to you of the rephlex stuff, that would be a lesser evil....

On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Gonzalo Merchan wrote:

quoted 4 lines find: Analogue Bubble Bath 3 on CD, the Caustic Window Joy Rex Eps,

> find: Analogue Bubble Bath 3 on CD, the Caustic Window Joy Rex Eps, > Q-Chastic, Power Pill, and the chances of me EVER finding any of these > are very slim. Even though I've called countless stores, mail order > houses, record finders, etc. no luck. Now imagine you where a Beatles

FYI, Modern Music in Baltimore has as shitload of rare Aphex/Rephlex stuff just sitting in the bins - Universal Indicators red and blue, Curve remix, Powerpill (black and yellow vinyl versions), Joyrex J4, AB3 etc. You can expect to pay out the arse for it, but it is there and available. :: Alan M. Parry :: fluid@hyperreal.com :: <finger me for PGP key> :: http://hyperreal.com/~fluid

I don't own any bootlegs of anybody. The prices are usually ripoffs and they sound quality is usually second rate. Then again, the Orb's live album sounded worse than a couple bootlegs ive heard. I do like the IDEA of bootlegs because it takes money away from record companies who are either money-grubbers or they are these snooty ambient/techno 'underground' labels who take themselves too seriously. When I was doing my radio show I tried a million times to get on the promo lists of some of these companies and was told 'we dont provide promotional material to radio, even non-commercial radio'...As if they made the stuff of life at their company. As a result of those policies I was unable to provide a lot of new music to listeners who aould have been reached and promted to buy the stuff retail...etc etc... So, had I been able to find unauthorized copies of whoever's music, damn straight id buy it, broadcast it, etc. If they had a gripe, id say: increase security at your shows and tell your label to step off and make the music more readily accessible. I live in shitville, deepsouth, USA...they have a hard time not stocking 100% country down here. I have to work hard to get these tunes, and they should take that into account and at least make the stuff available to radio and the media who review the stuff. On the retail end, most people wont sell actual bootlegs, and those who do classify them as 'imports' to get around a few laws and to justify the 40.00+ price tags. On the bad side, the only bootlegs produced in large quality around here have been...hmmm...'hootie' and the like. Anyway...I know that the integrity of the artform is preserved by making the stuff harder to get and producing limited quantities, etc... But I agree with G.M. in that the starving know few bounds when it comes to getting food. I will do anything but steal the shit from the stores... And I have come close to doing that. :) Jasonosaj

On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Alphabet Design wrote:

quoted 7 lines When I was doing my radio show I tried a million times to get on the

> When I was doing my radio show I tried a million times to get on the > promo lists of some of these companies and was told 'we dont provide > promotional material to radio, even non-commercial radio'...As if they > made the stuff of life at their company. As a result of those policies I > was unable to provide a lot of new music to listeners who aould have been > reached and promted to buy the stuff retail...etc etc... >

The truth is that most people who listen to non-commercial radio are not prompted to run out and buy the stuff. Sure you can give a hundred anecdotes of stuff you and your friends have heard on the radio and run out and bought, but for every story like that there are thousands of people hearing thousands of songs who aren't moved to go buy a single thing. The hit and miss nature of the thing, along with the fact that most small labels can't afford to just flush money down the toilet like that. Also, don't forget that there is often a chorus of hundreds of whining voices saying "I'm a DJ and I luuuv you, so send me lots of free stuff" (many of whom turn bratty when you say "No, I can't afford it") makes doing promos for DJs and radio really more trouble then it is usually worth. Jeff --------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey G Reid jgreid@u.washington.edu --------------------------------------------------------------- "O holy mathematics, may I for the rest of my days be consoled by perpetual intercourse with you, consoled for the wickedness of man and the injustice of the Almighty!" -- Isidore Ducasse

quoted 2 lines The truth is that most people who listen to non-commercial radio are not

> The truth is that most people who listen to non-commercial radio are not > prompted to run out and buy the stuff.

Granted, the radio show was in a small area which by population alone would not generate tons of sales... BUT... Nearly 3/4 of the calls the show received were : "What is that and where can I get it?" The answer to which was: Tower Records, Atlanta (6 hrs away) or Tower Records, New Orleans (5 Hrs) or Mail Order (Rip off, unguaranteed stock)

quoted 3 lines whining voices saying "I'm a DJ and I luuuv you, so send me lots of free

> whining voices saying "I'm a DJ and I luuuv you, so send me lots of free > stuff" (many of whom turn bratty when you say "No, I can't afford it") makes > doing promos for DJs and radio really more trouble then it is usually worth.

I imagine that could get annoying. I never approached it that way though. I would send a brief letter describing the show, the format, the area demographics, the show's ratings and also request to be added to the promotionals list. No phone calls or whiny voices. It was either go broke spending my own money on the radio show, which I did not get paid to do, or ask for promos, or play old crap all the time. The show had a budget of as much as 15 new cds a semester, but that was a miracle. Plus, how much trouble is doing your job (If your job is promotionals/pr)? It is a cycle. If you dont promote, you wont sell, then you 'can't afford' to promote. The old saying 'it takes money to make money' is true. All radio is, really, is advertisement for music.

On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, Alphabet Design wrote:

quoted 2 lines All radio is, really, is advertisement for music.

> All radio is, really, is advertisement for music. >

It is possible for radio to be more than an ad or music. Non-commercial, community and college station are supposed to be free rom commercialism. It's not always going to happen as many programmers will take the easy route and play whatever everybody else is playing. Being a non-commercial station which you mentioned that you were, frees you from record companies. It's a true gift when you realize that commercial radio stations program what they play weeks in advance. At a commercial station they are adverrtising music. Most commercial stations don't even have entire albums and they get sent special cd with about 15 songs (all big singles) from te labels MOST major artists. These get ed into a Sony jukebox and programming takes care off itself. I do have a radio show. I play techno. I know I have a a fairly big following but I never get phone calls. One week I decided not to announce any song titles. Still no phone calls. Check with my friends in the next couple of days, and yeah, they had listened but they didn't care about the song titles. They are only listening to enjoy and to be especially exposed to somethhing they can't get anywhere else. (in a city of 80000). sorry or the long pointless(?) rant, but I feel strongly about college radio and I never see my show as an ad, cause I know people aren't going to run out and buy Disjecta, but they do enjoy when they hear it. Phil Downey

quoted 2 lines It is possible for radio to be more than an ad or music. Non-commercial,

> It is possible for radio to be more than an ad or music. Non-commercial, > community and college station are supposed to be free rom commercialism.

Nope. Just free from COMMERCIALS. They still manage to have 'underwriters' who 'donate' money to the station. Its the same as an ad, just the terminology has to be different to avoid FCC violations.

quoted 2 lines It's not always going to happen as many programmers will take the easy

> It's not always going to happen as many programmers will take the easy > route and play whatever everybody else is playing.

That is true in many senses... The station I worked at was on a schedule of sorts, but there was never a set list. My show was in another block in which I could determine the format and the content.

quoted 2 lines Being a non-commercial station which you mentioned that you were, frees

> Being a non-commercial station which you mentioned that you were, frees > you from record companies.

I get what youre saying, sort of... But the record companies still make records whether the station is commercial or not...so I dont follow you completely. A non comm station doesnt have to be at the mercy of the top 40 charts, but they still have to get the tunes from somewhere...

quoted 3 lines I do have a radio show. I play techno. I know I have a a fairly big

> I do have a radio show. I play techno. I know I have a a fairly big > following but I never get phone calls. One week I decided not to > announce any song titles. Still no phone calls.

Hmm.. I rarely ever said anything on air except at the beginning of the show and the top of the hour...and I rarely announced titles...but i did distribute a playlist which included order numbers, etc. I also made a point of promoting the show and such... The local music shops reported an increase of sales in ambient/techno...as well as increased orders... Also reported were customers coming in the stores with printed copies of the playlist so that they could get the spellings right. I wanted the audience to want to own the music so that the stores would stock more of it so that *I* could buy more of it.

quoted 4 lines Check with my friends

> Check with my friends > in the next couple of days, and yeah, they had listened but they didn't > care about the song titles. They are only listening to enjoy and to be > especially exposed to somethhing they can't get anywhere else.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yeah, especially the record stores and the like. I wanted my audience to know what the form was, and to want to own it. I would review a couple CDS every now and then and 'recommend' CDs I knew would not be found locally. You have to create an audience of followers to keep the spot on the air, and the audience must have a market in which to buy the stuff you have just convinced them that they like. Why in the world would you think that non comm radio was not selling music? It is just selling the music that isnt on the top 40 (Yet). Billboard rates the fringe music as well. Plus, look at CMJ...etc etc....they all have charts. Music stores read those charts...and buy CDs based on the charts. And thats how the fringe makes it to the mainstream. Its like that water cycle from gradeschool. 10 years from now the top 40 crap of today will be retro-alternative and then top 40 all over again! Isnt it exciting?! But I dont care about any of that. I just want the damn music that I like right now. I dont want to be driving 6 hours for CD's. I have to plan a weekend to go to the record store and that travel cash diminishes my buying power. But anyway. All radio sells music. You might be all idealistic and say 'Oh, I never sell the music and MY listeners just love the music' and all that hogwash, but Im telling you that someone heard and liked and BOUGHT and thats what I mean by advertising. A thing is presented in a public forum, is preferred over other things... is purchased...no sales pitch necessary. Maybe he loved the music, like you say, and that was all...but he still BOUGHT it. Jasonosaj

I was on a mail list last year and one of the guys was doing a project for a marketing class. His thesis was that bootlegs of concerts, unreleased, or unavailable tracks should not be illegal because they pose no threat of lowering the demand on the label's/artist's current "legitimately" released work. After I answered his survey on my music buying habits, I asked him to send a copy of his paper to me. He hasn't. Anyone familiar with this person? His point is that most people that buy bootlegs don't do it to save money, they do it cause they want (need?) everything! I think most people would agree with this. Dave