IDM Mailing Archive

Recently I've seen the light on how incredibly practical buying a MiniDisc player, transferring all your vinyl and then selling it is. In fact, I think I'm 100% converted this time. My question, however, to the people on this list who do lots of digital transfer, is which is a smarter purchase: MiniDisc or CDR (which has better sound, is longer lasting, etc.) and what recorder is the best buy? I'm guessing MiniDisc is superior, but I could be wrong. Thanks, Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

mornin' i'd say go the cdr route, preferably connected to a mac or pc as opposed to the stand alone variety minidisc is still a good option especially for bootlegging gigs but if you do go this route make sure you get one with digital in and out (and no scms) so that when you copy md to md you can do it perfectly and digitally its nice the way you can add your own track marks/track names but this can become a pain if you want to do this for every disc in the best of all possible worlds you get both but if i had to pick one cdr definately you can rip original cds perfectly and burn copies you can burn from cd to cdr in 8 speed also make mp3 cdrs for transfer large amounts of data and now make audio cdr from mp3 one option costs £200 upwards (md) the other assuming you have a pc/mac with scsi board is nearer £400 - and thats if you hotline the software have fun benjib -----Original Message----- From: AeOtaku@aol.com [mailto:AeOtaku@aol.com] Sent: 27 November 1999 05:53 To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: (idm) MiniDisc or CDR? Recently I've seen the light on how incredibly practical buying a MiniDisc player, transferring all your vinyl and then selling it is. In fact, I think I'm 100% converted this time. My question, however, to the people on this list who do lots of digital transfer, is which is a smarter purchase: MiniDisc or CDR (which has better sound, is longer lasting, etc.) and what recorder is the best buy? I'm guessing MiniDisc is superior, but I could be wrong. Thanks, Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

MiniDiscs are superior in the areas of editing, ease of use and rewritablity...but the media itself uses a form of compression (I believe it's called something like ATRAC compression) which removes certain high and low frequencies from the recording which the average human ear is not supposed to hear. This compression is apparently what allows 72 minutes of music to be recorded on such a small sized medium. If you're planning on doing alot of recording onto MD's, you might want to consider buying a professional model recorder. These units (such as the Sony B-3/B-5) have balanced inputs and outputs, a digital in/out (as opposed to an optical in/out which most consumer models sport), and the editing features are far superior and easier to use than on the consumer models. The downside to the professional units is that they cost in the area of 2-3,000 dollars. I've heard rumors of a new (Sony again?) recorder which features balanced ins/outs, real digital ins/outs, and takes up only 1 or 2 rack spaces which runs for around $800. Personally, for archiving my vinyl collection, I prefer to use CD-R. I'm not losing as much audio quality as I would with a MD and I can play the CD in my car......'Nuff said! -paul peterson --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 11/26/99 10:26:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, AeOtaku@aol.com writes: << My question, however, to the people on this list who do lots of digital transfer, is which is a smarter purchase: MiniDisc or CDR (which has better sound, is longer lasting, etc.) and what recorder is the best buy? I'm guessing MiniDisc is superior, but I could be wrong. Thanks, >> Well, it depends on what kind of equipment you have, etc, but technicaly minidisc has the capability of being better than CD quality regardless. I have good stereo equipment and set-up and i've found that my minidiscs from vinyl come out in incredible quality... friends of mine who also have minidisc recorders have listened and wondered how i got them to sound so good, so maybe my results aren't typical. However, CD-R would probably be a waste of money because the sound what be equal or worse, but the advantage with mini discs is they are fully editable... you can erase the first few seconds of the record when nothing is playing, you can erase the blank areas when the record ends.... I love my minidisc player. Trevor --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 27 Nov 99, NonalignmentPact@aol.com wrote re: Re: (idm) MiniDisc or CDR?:

quoted 2 lines but technicaly minidisc has the capability of being better than CD

> but technicaly minidisc has the capability of being better than CD > quality regardless.

Similar but different : I have finally made a mix CD-R comprising tracks re-expanded from MP3's and the sound quality is remarkably 'usable' for playing out, except for some clipping, where the original encoding was obviously distorting (looking at the wave in SoundForge one can actually see squared waves). I * np : The Beatles/Rubber Soul (bought it yesterday 2nd hand!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

AeOtaku@aol.com wrote:

quoted 3 lines Recently I've seen the light on how incredibly

> Recently I've seen the light on how incredibly > practical buying a MiniDisc player, transferring > all your vinyl and then selling it is.

I've noticed a LOT of people blatantly doing this lately and IMHO, it's incredibly lame. It's one thing to unload things you don't want or listen to any more but a whole other ball of wax when you dub 15 extremely rare records you've had (and enjoyed) for years and then auction them off for as much as you can get, while keeping a digital copy. Wack, wack, wack. If you really want to make some money quick, why not just shoplift cd's at all your local record stores and sell them back for 10 cents on the dollar. Pretty much the same difference, but backassward. Me, I'd rather feel good about myself knowing that I'm not fucking over artists and labels I like... yrs, a crotchety old person named brock. ps. As for the question, you can't beat a CDR for low media price, flexibility and compatibility. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 11/27/99 12:40:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, brock@alchemyfx.com writes: << Me, I'd rather feel good about myself knowing that I'm not fucking over artists and labels I like... ............... ps. As for the question, you can't beat a CDR for low media price, flexibility and compatibility. >> First of all, is your opinion going to change his/hers? Nope...... Second, it is NOT "fucking over" anybody.... as long as you buy the record in the first place, they got their money for it. If you sell it, that's your profit, so both people profit out of it. Personally I enjoy having an extensive collection and would never sell anything even if i had a MD of it. Besides, "IDM" records are so fucking expensive, did you ever stop and think maybe the artists/labels are fucking you over? Any LP priced over 10 dollars is a fucking crime!!!! Third - Yes, CD-Rs run about $2.00 for one. Mini discs run $2.50 for one. The difference? Mini discs give you great editing capability, and are re-recordable "up to a million times". So you get way more for your buck. bwahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Trevor --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines Third - Yes, CD-Rs run about $2.00 for one. Mini discs run $2.50

> Third - Yes, CD-Rs run about $2.00 for one. Mini discs run $2.50 > for one. > The difference? Mini discs give you great editing capability, and are > re-recordable "up to a million times". So you get way more for your buck.

If you shop smart and buy during sales you can get brand name CDR's for 50 cents to $1.00 each. That's as low as 1/5th of the price of a mini-disc if your $2.50 price is accurate. Rebate offers which are regularly available give you CDR's for free after rebate. I haven't paid more than $1.00 for a CDR in a really long time. If you want a re-recordable CD there are CDRW's available which have come way down in price. You can find them in bulk for about $1.50 each. someone else said:

quoted 6 lines I've noticed a LOT of people blatantly doing this lately and IMHO, it's

>I've noticed a LOT of people blatantly doing this lately and IMHO, it's >incredibly lame. It's one thing to unload things you don't want or >listen to any more but a whole other ball of wax when you dub 15 >extremely rare records you've had (and enjoyed) for years and then >auction them off for as much as you can get, while keeping a digital >copy.

quoted 2 lines Me, I'd rather feel good about myself knowing that I'm not fucking over

>Me, I'd rather feel good about myself knowing that I'm not fucking over >artists and labels I like...

I personally haven't copied vinyl onto CD and sold the vinyl...but if the records are out-of-print and unavailable I don't see how anyone is getting screwed by copying an out of print item onto CD for yourself and selling the vinyl. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do since it's copyrighted material, but I also don't see any tangible way the artist is losing any money in the transaction. If the vinyl items are available for sale, or if someone is selling CD copies, then it's a totally different story - I'd agree the artist is getting screwed. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 NonalignmentPact@aol.com wrote:

quoted 3 lines Besides, "IDM" records are so fucking expensive, did you ever stop and think

> Besides, "IDM" records are so fucking expensive, did you ever stop and think > maybe the artists/labels are fucking you over? Any LP priced over 10 dollars > is a fucking crime!!!!

oh shit, don't let the public know. seriously, how can anyone believe this? the economics of running a small label are such that fucking over the customers who support their existence in the first place is probably somewhere in the back of their mind, overshadowed by the worry of even selling enough copies to break even and move on to the next release. small idm labels aren't run by shrewd businessmen tired of making their fortune on wall st., deciding they'd rather suck up money from you, the poor, unsuspecting IDM consumer. if you think you're paying too much, do something about it. here's a simple plan: get some friends, and get your resume's together. one of you apply for the domestic buyer job at Watts, and the others take the job by force at Forced Exposure, Syntax, etc. . once you get in, buy up 500 copies of the new releases from all your favorite 'overpriced' idm labels, for say, $3.50/pc. turn around and sell to all your favorite 'overpriced' retailers for exactly $3.50/pc. rush home, check the new release list from your favorite mail-order record store, and buy a copy of Record X for nearly $1.50 less, reveling in the knowledge that while you may be putting the distributor out of business, which will ultimately make it impossible for Label X to even release Record X, you didn't get 'fucked over by the artist/label'. get real. -chris --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 11/27/99 12:51:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, mikebee@sirius.com writes: << explain to me how you're fucking over artists on records that are out of print and unavailable... >> Exactly! right on bro. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 11/27/99 3:40:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, brock@alchemyfx.com writes: << I've noticed a LOT of people blatantly doing this lately and IMHO, it's incredibly lame. It's one thing to unload things you don't want or listen to any more but a whole other ball of wax when you dub 15 extremely rare records you've had (and enjoyed) for years and then auction them off for as much as you can get, while keeping a digital copy. Wack, wack, wack. I used to have a remarkably similar viewpoint until I realized a few things: A) original vinyl is incredibly fragile. B) original vinyl fetches a lot of money. C) I always just make tapes to listen to anyway. D) it's more easier to put on a CD and listen to it then turn over four 12"s for the same amount of music. I'm not saying I don't buy the records. I do. Then I make a copy of them, and sell them. I have my copy for home listening, somebody else buys the record. I support: A) the label, by buying their release. B) the artist, by buying their release. C) the retailer, by shopping from them. D) the distributor, by encouraging the retailer to keep ordering. E) people who like vinyl, by reselling my 12"s at a lower price than I paid. If you really want to make some money quick, why not just shoplift cd's at all your local record stores and sell them back for 10 cents on the dollar. Pretty much the same difference, but backassward. How am I making money? I spend $10 for a 12" (already a rip-off). I pay $2.50 for a MiniDisc or a CDR. I then end up selling the 12" for like $7 or 8. I'm losing money. Just less money than I would be losing if I buy vinyl and keep it. So I'm recycling the vinyl and my money, so I keep buying new things and not losing lots of money. Me, I'd rather feel good about myself knowing that I'm not fucking over artists and labels I like... Ha! I'd love to see you support that statement. If anything, labels fuck us over constantly. Electronic music is just about the only music where a 7" from the UK costs $8 and a 12" $10+ consistently. I used to airmail 7"s from Japan and pay about $4-5 a piece. There are probably a handful of labels that are even remotely reasonable in pricing. I'm not saying make an MD or a CDR of CD's, because those are more convienient to listen to and generally available. But let's look at two scenarios for having the music of the first three Black Dog 12"s: option A: spend over a year and over $300 getting the first three BDP 12"s. play them a couple times (having to get up and turn over the damn record), destroy them. option B: make a MiniDisc, have them all on the disc (heck, you can even throw on "Von Daniken Experiment"), not keep the original records which you won't play anyway. Same deal with Likemind, Otherworld, B12, Axis, all that old collectible stuff. Hey: if the labels reissued these as CD's, I'd buy those, fuck home recording. But that doesn't look like it's going to happen. And if it does, I can always record over my MiniDisc with something else and buy the reissue. See the light: home recording. Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 11/27/99 4:21:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, sanvara@home.com writes: << I personally haven't copied vinyl onto CD and sold the vinyl...but if the records are out-of-print and unavailable I don't see how anyone is getting screwed by copying an out of print item onto CD for yourself and selling the vinyl. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do since it's copyrighted material, but I also don't see any tangible way the artist is losing any money in the transaction. If the vinyl items are available for sale, or if someone is selling CD copies, then it's a totally different story - I'd agree the artist is getting screwed. >> I still haven't heard what's wrong with making a MD for _pure_ home listening use. This is a legal battle that has been fought many times. There's also nothing wrong, ethically or legally, with making one copy and giving it to your friend. Making lots of copies, then selling them, that smacks of dishonesty and nastiness, but otherwise, no problems. Besides, if I buy the 12", and I want to put it on MiniDisc, that's my own damn decision, not the artist's. If I start to make money off music that isn't mine, I infringe. Until then: fair use. And if I keep a MiniDisc and sell the vinyl, that's fine too. Nothing wrong with selling vinyl. The best of both worlds. Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

ENOUGH! Quit this minidisc vs. CD-R jabbering. Take it off the list. This is worse than vinyl vs. CD. Aaron np: A.D.N.Y. presents Leiva - The Way Eye See (Plastic City) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Not to start a debate, but compression is compression...and minidisc - while getting better all the time - still cuts off more than cdr does. The issue is more of convenience. Editing is easier with md, but with software you can do a WHOLE lot more editing via a cdr hooked to a pc than you can with standard comercially available minidisc. Unless you're using a stand-alone unit, you have the resources of whatever your pc/mac will provide and there are a LOT of apps out there which will do just about anything you can imagine. Unless md has changed a great deal since I last looked into it, you can't de-hiss a tape, clean pops from vinyl, split/merge tracks and add effects. I plan on buying md next year sijmply for the convenience of size and playback...but all of my editing and the majority of recording will be cdr. jeff NonalignmentPact@aol.com wrote:

quoted 26 lines In a message dated 11/26/99 10:26:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> In a message dated 11/26/99 10:26:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, > AeOtaku@aol.com writes: > > << My question, however, > to the people on this list who do lots of digital transfer, > is which is a smarter purchase: MiniDisc or CDR (which > has better sound, is longer lasting, etc.) and what > recorder is the best buy? I'm guessing MiniDisc is superior, > but I could be wrong. Thanks, >> > > Well, it depends on what kind of equipment you have, etc, but technicaly > minidisc has the capability of being better than CD quality regardless. I > have good stereo equipment and set-up and i've found that my minidiscs from > vinyl come out in incredible quality... friends of mine who also have > minidisc recorders have listened and wondered how i got them to sound so > good, so maybe my results aren't typical. However, CD-R would probably be a > waste of money because the sound what be equal or worse, but the advantage > with mini discs is they are fully editable... you can erase the first few > seconds of the record when nothing is playing, you can erase the blank areas > when the record ends.... I love my minidisc player. > > Trevor > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

-- jeff "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are wrong, even if they're right." dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." ICQ904008 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 11/28/99 11:26:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, a057876t@bc.seflin.org writes: << > Besides, "IDM" records are so fucking expensive, did you ever stop and think > maybe the artists/labels are fucking you over? Any LP priced over 10 dollars > is a fucking crime!!!! oh shit, don't let the public know. seriously, how can anyone believe this? >> I believe it because the non-IDM records I buy (on smaller labels) go for 9 dollars TOPS. never paid more than that for a single LP of an independent release. maybe you should research how much it takes to press a record. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well, I think IDM stuff is expensive a lot of places. Let It Be in Minneapolis is expensive. Gramaphone is expensive. Amoeba, though you can find bargains, is expensive. Not that they aren't first rate shops, but they really are high. My friend Kirk here in Iowa City has been doing dance and electronica (for lack of a better word) in his store for as long as it's been around and his prices are always lower than you pay most places. He's getting his act together to do mail order on a web site soon, and I'll spam you later when he's ready to do business. And as for copying to MD or CDR -- as far as I ever understood it the rule was do whatever you think you have to, but for god's sake don't discuss violations of international copyright conventions in an open forum. I think someone recording a record and then selling it isn't much of a crime; you paid for it, you're selling it at a loss, and what you record or don't record is your own damn business. I don't think that you can make the case that any company has actually lost sales because of this -- hell, I bet most of the time you can't even buy a new copy. The people making records know that there's a whole grey market for music and always has been. But they don't enjoy having their noses rubbed in it. So keep it on the downlow... kent williams -- kent@avalon.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 15 lines In a message dated 11/28/99 11:26:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> In a message dated 11/28/99 11:26:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, > a057876t@bc.seflin.org writes: > > << > Besides, "IDM" records are so fucking expensive, did you ever stop and > think > > maybe the artists/labels are fucking you over? Any LP priced over 10 > dollars > > is a fucking crime!!!! > > oh shit, don't let the public know. seriously, how can anyone > believe this? >> > > I believe it because the non-IDM records I buy (on smaller labels) go for 9 > dollars TOPS. never paid more than that for a single LP of an independent > release. maybe you should research how much it takes to press a record.

Thanks, I have. I don't know if he has, but I can tell you there's more to running a label than actually just pressing the records. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines small idm labels aren't run by shrewd businessmen tired of

>small idm labels aren't run by shrewd businessmen tired of >making their fortune on wall st.,

But, correct me if I'm wrong: The price of CD's (of whatever genre) is an inflated skam to begin with: those who recall the moment during the 80's when CD's came along will also recall that LP's cost $7 or so. CD's, so exciting, so cutting-edge, came along costing $25. Within a year, the standard price drifted down to about $15, where it's stayed ever since, and vinyl was eliminated from the mass market. Of course the price of manufacturing a CD has plummeted since then, but this savings was not passed along to the consumer. then we come to IDM...no, you're not going to find it on sale at Tower for $9.99, but the list price for CDs doesn't seem extraordinary. unfortunately, a lot of stuff is only available as ridiculously overpriced vinyl. $10 for a 12" single continually strikes me as way over the top. Especially when you consider that the production cost on a lot of this stuff must be pretty low: no session musicians, and most stuff gets recorded and sometimes even mastered in people's home studios. most problematic is that one needs a nice changing pile of IDM to keep things fresh, and that pile is going to cost you hundreds or thousands of dollars... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Hi,

quoted 2 lines from Japan and pay about $4-5 a piece. There are probably

>from Japan and pay about $4-5 a piece. There are probably >a handful of labels that are even remotely reasonable in pricing.

Well I can respect your argument from the consumer viewpoint but being a small label owner I can also respect the label's viewpoint and i'd just like to point out that it's not the label's charging the high prices but a combination of things like shipping costs, the distributor markup and then the retailer mark-up. Let's take an example of CD X: CD X manufacturing costs were $2.10 US what do you think is a reasonable wholesale price for Label Y to charge? (..remembering they have to pay the artist (recoup the advance)) and pay for any advertising or promotion of said CD X such as a launch, etc. Cover cost of running a web site which for a small label is critical nowadays and so on. Also remember there is then the shipping costs (for an o/s label) these are usually quite high and then the distributor markup which with the ones i've dealt with varies from 30 to 50% of wholesale cost AND THEN the retailer mark-up which again is anywhere from 30-50% mark-up on the distributor sale price. Factor that in and how much do you think the label is actually making?? Stuff-all!! So the label see's very little of the final retail sale price and can't afford to release the next release in any numbers larger than 500 or so. So you want to buy experimental electronic music cheap?! Get off your lazy arses and support the labels directly by buying their CD's from them directly via their web sites!! I'll be getting together a list of independently run electronic music labels that sell there product through their web site, which i'll be posting to the idm/ambient lists on compilation. So anyone who runs a label and wants to be included in the list email me privately, thanks. Regards, John http://aural-industries.com.au/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Uhm I tried to hold back and say nothing here...but I just can't help myself because it's monday and as and evil label fucking over all you IDMers I couldn't control myself ;) seriously guys, there are way more costs to putting out a record than the pressing..in fact the pressing is the least expensive in a lot of ways here are some basic label economic for those of you who either want to start a label and those of you who think we are sitting back in out limos with cocaine and hookers makin mad bucks off the backs of our artists and fans 1) cost of the record (cd 2-3 bucks) why so much you ask..dont forget about colour booklets jewlcases, special packaging and shrink wrapping.... 2)royalties: I suppose the artist deserves a pay check around $2.00 3) mechanical royalties (yup more than one kind) .50-.75 4)advertising (not just in print ads, but in the US ya got to pay the chains to put records in proper spots, listening posts etc..oh yeah, those "sales" at Tower..uhm it's the label that pays for that too...we take less money when that happens 5)promos..radio, press, your mother 6)returns and overstock...we aint that popular , ya know and all those records that dont get bought, well we take back and build sculpture with them..pretty maybe, but no too lucrative 7)distributors..they take 20-25% of the price they sell it for 8)stores, well they need to make money too 9)vinyl is REALLY HEAVY..shipping, duties, custom brokers 10) what about the phone and the email and the web page and the money we need to feed ourselves and the rent and the computers and and .. I suppose my point here is that we aint selling millions, ..I wish we could sell them for less and compete better with the majors . We really would rather charge you less but that's what it costs. I am not sure which labels you are talking about who's charging you under 10 bucks..but I hazard a guess that if they are indie..well then someone is bank rolling them to loose cash (like mom or dad). Remember most of the music you guys like is pretty obscure..so it's a labour of love for the label that is putting it out. If ya want to bootleg (and I DONT mean making a copy of some out of print record, or even a copy for that unemployed friend who would never buy the record anyway) please don't justify it with the argument that we are fucking you over...cause if this is fucking, then I want to join a convent -luv ninja phil FORTHCOMING ALBUMS: Oct 11 - Dynamic Syncopation 'Dynamism' ZEN 43 Nov 8 - Animals On Wheels 'Nuvol i Cadira' NTONE 36 Feb 22 - Kid Koala 'Carpal Tunnel Syndrome' ZEN 34 March 20 - DJ Food 'Kaleidoscape' ZEN 47 www.ninjatune.net funky free internet access - www.yesmate.com ----------

quoted 5 lines From: kurt <supine@bway.net>

>From: kurt <supine@bway.net> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: (idm) MiniDisc or CDR? >Date: Sun, Nov 28, 1999, 4:43 PM >

quoted 30 lines small idm labels aren't run by shrewd businessmen tired of

>>small idm labels aren't run by shrewd businessmen tired of >>making their fortune on wall st., > > But, correct me if I'm wrong: > The price of CD's (of whatever genre) is an inflated skam to begin with: > those who recall the moment during the 80's when CD's came along will also > recall that LP's cost $7 or so. CD's, so exciting, so cutting-edge, came > along costing $25. Within a year, the standard price drifted down to about > $15, where it's stayed ever since, and vinyl was eliminated from the mass > market. Of course the price of manufacturing a CD has plummeted since then, > but this savings was not passed along to the consumer. > > then we come to IDM...no, you're not going to find it on sale at Tower for > $9.99, but the list price for CDs doesn't seem extraordinary. > unfortunately, a lot of stuff is only available as ridiculously overpriced > vinyl. $10 for a 12" single continually strikes me as way over the top. > Especially when you consider that the production cost on a lot of this > stuff must be pretty low: no session musicians, and most stuff gets > recorded and sometimes even mastered in people's home studios. > > most problematic is that one needs a nice changing pile of IDM to keep > things fresh, and that pile is going to cost you hundreds or thousands of > dollars... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > >

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