IDM Mailing Archive

someone wrote:

quoted 4 lines Interesting that you think so. I believe that autechre have

> Interesting that you think so. I believe that autechre have > progressed > immensly over the years, though they have continued to exploit music > within some rather small boundries.

Funny you guys are talking about this cuz a DJ friend of mine and I were discussing Ae tonite while we waited for UBERZONE to come on stage. He and I concluded that Ae are way ahead many others in the game. We get blown away with each release, but Ae and other IDM artists need to come up with a new formula. Seems to me, that RDJ created the IDM formula with SAW#1: a. Focus you attention on wicked beats (Ae are masters at this!) b. make the beats distorted to get even more wicked (RDJ gets the credit b/x he was distorting beats back when Ae was using a dry 606/808 on Incunabula) actually distorto beats should be credited to the industrial artists from back in the day.... c. add some small little melody/synth line on top (Ae does this plenty, esp on Chicli Suite/Chiastic Slide) RDJ has too many tracks to mention that do this. BOCHUM WELT is 100% guilty. d. Loop it, let it run forever (Ae no doubt) e. cut out loop A here, cut out loop B there, bring back loop a, etc. pretty obvious stuff. f. Wah-la you have your self an IDM track. I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do, but all these minimal IDM artists do follow a standard formula. I am not saying it's bad, I love it, but it is a constant formula. Of course it's better than 4on the floor dance caca, but when it becomes to obvious I crave more. This maybe why I like Atom Hearts crazy RI releases. Too me that guy lacks all music structure (which is awesome) He doesn't care what gets thrown in, but he programs like a mad man:) Atom Heart is definitely a step above many...... get Brown for a good start where Atom Heart makes no sense -0

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, -0 wrote:

quoted 2 lines a. Focus you attention on wicked beats (Ae are masters at this!)

> > a. Focus you attention on wicked beats (Ae are masters at this!)

SAWII?

quoted 4 lines b. make the beats distorted to get even more wicked (RDJ gets the

> b. make the beats distorted to get even more wicked (RDJ gets the > credit b/x he was distorting beats back when Ae was using a dry > 606/808 on Incunabula) actually distorto beats should be credited to > the industrial artists from back in the day....

So what about the current electro rejuvenation? Everyone's using a dry 808 these days.

quoted 4 lines c. add some small little melody/synth line on top (Ae does this

> > c. add some small little melody/synth line on top (Ae does this > plenty, esp on Chicli Suite/Chiastic Slide) RDJ has too many tracks to > mention that do this. BOCHUM WELT is 100% guilty.

Squarepusher often forgets about this completely.

quoted 1 line d. Loop it, let it run forever (Ae no doubt)

> d. Loop it, let it run forever (Ae no doubt)

True unfortunately.

quoted 2 lines e. cut out loop A here, cut out loop B there, bring back loop a, etc.

> e. cut out loop A here, cut out loop B there, bring back loop a, etc. > pretty obvious stuff.

Only obvious after dub came along.

quoted 3 lines I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do,

> > I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do, > but all these minimal IDM artists do follow a standard formula.

except for The Black Dog, B12, Scala (not really minimal IDM I guess), Mouse on Mars, Plug (the EP's at least), FSOL, Elfish Echo, Bisk, Funki Porcini...and that's just trying to stick to the 'mainstream.' I don't mean to nitpick, but there's already enough people off the list who think that techno is a bunch of computers making a whole crapload of music that all sounds the same. :) -arjun

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Arjun Mendiratta <arjun@frappe.ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:

quoted 3 lines except for The Black Dog, B12, Scala (not really minimal IDM I guess),

>except for The Black Dog, B12, Scala (not really minimal IDM I guess), >Mouse on Mars, Plug (the EP's at least), FSOL, Elfish Echo, Bisk, Funki >Porcini...and that's just trying to stick to the 'mainstream.'

minimal? Elfish Echo? Bisk? Mouse on Mars? Funki Porcini? PLUG!? minimal... ?! sorry - that's a weird definition for 'minimal'. if anything, these artists - with their tightly-packed zigzagging breakbeats and tasty overload of elements - are creating 'maximal' electronic music. GuerillaG2-G4/ gg np: Celeste - Principe De Giorno

At 02:58 AM 10/17/97 +0000, -0 wrote:

quoted 8 lines I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do,

>I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do, >but all these minimal IDM artists do follow a standard formula. I am >not saying it's bad, I love it, but it is a constant formula. Of >course it's better than 4on the floor dance caca, but when it becomes >to obvious I crave more. This maybe why I like Atom Hearts crazy RI >releases. Too me that guy lacks all music structure (which is awesome) >He doesn't care what gets thrown in, but he programs like a mad man:) >Atom Heart is definitely a step above many......

something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to attack "4 on the floor dance caca" but i've found that 75% of the IDM tracks heralded as "brilliant" by list members are undeniably done in 4/4 time. oh well. ------------------------------------------------- wells oliver : s0ewoliv@titan.vcu.edu "perhaps all pleasure is relief" : w.s.b. -------------------------------------------------

In message <3.0.3.32.19971017153913.006df0d8@titan.vcu.edu>, wells <s0ewoliv@titan.vcu.edu> writes

quoted 4 lines something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to

>something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to >attack "4 on the floor dance caca" but i've found that 75% of the IDM >tracks heralded as "brilliant" by list members are undeniably done in 4/4 >time.

Uh? You can have four-to-the-floor in 3/4 time if you want....four to the floor and "4/4" don't mean the same thing......one's a drummer's term and the other's a time signature... -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

Arjun Mendiratta wrote:

quoted 7 lines On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, -0 wrote:

> > On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, -0 wrote: > > > > > a. Focus you attention on wicked beats (Ae are masters at this!) > > SAWII?

beats on SAWII? very little, if any... not what I am talking about really.

quoted 8 lines b. make the beats distorted to get even more wicked (RDJ gets the

> > > b. make the beats distorted to get even more wicked (RDJ gets the > > credit b/x he was distorting beats back when Ae was using a dry > > 606/808 on Incunabula) actually distorto beats should be credited to > > the industrial artists from back in the day.... > > So what about the current electro rejuvenation? Everyone's using a dry 808 > these days.

Great. Whats your point? All I was saying is that RDJ brought Distorto beats to IDM, that's it. Just tried to demonstrate that at the time RDJ (being ahead of his time always) was doing Distorto beats, Ae was using dry 808 sounds (which are wonderful) Your point just shows the tunes go back and forth between traditional dry 808 beats and other tunes get the fuzz box. Still the formula is the same. I guess PART B should have been listed as (optional). Good thing you brought it up. Same shit in the end, wicked beats most important seems like. More focus on beat then on melody we'd all tend to agree no?

quoted 7 lines c. add some small little melody/synth line on top (Ae does this

> > > > > c. add some small little melody/synth line on top (Ae does this > > plenty, esp on Chicli Suite/Chiastic Slide) RDJ has too many tracks to > > mention that do this. BOCHUM WELT is 100% guilty. > > Squarepusher often forgets about this completely.

I'm guilty of not owning any SQPR (ok don't send me any letter bombs)

quoted 4 lines d. Loop it, let it run forever (Ae no doubt)

> > > d. Loop it, let it run forever (Ae no doubt) > > True unfortunately.

If it's a good loop, let it run forever I say. This is why I sometimes wish the Garbage ep would never end, it's beautiful in my ears! A loop ain't necessarily bad all the time, but it wouldn't be progress (issue at hand)

quoted 5 lines e. cut out loop A here, cut out loop B there, bring back loop a, etc.

> > > e. cut out loop A here, cut out loop B there, bring back loop a, etc. > > pretty obvious stuff. > > Only obvious after dub came along.

Yes, part of the equation, but I just wanted to focus on RDJ's SAW#1 as the place where the formula all came together for what we call IDM. (a mad scientist he is:)

quoted 4 lines I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do,

> > > > I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do, > > but all these minimal IDM artists do follow a standard formula. >

read... MINIMAL IDM artists. Guess this formula only works with minimal IDM tracks. stupid me....

quoted 2 lines except for The Black Dog, B12, Scala (not really minimal IDM I guess),

> except for The Black Dog, B12, Scala (not really minimal IDM I guess), > Mouse on Mars, Plug (the EP's at least), FSOL, Elfish Echo, Bisk,

In no way would I say, BD Scala (I'd throw em in) FSOL, BISK, MOM are minimal, hell no! How could we ever say BD is minimal after releasing Music for Adverts?

quoted 2 lines I don't mean to nitpick,

> > I don't mean to nitpick,

By all means do so. Look already I have seen a few of my mistakes. but there's already enough people off the list

quoted 1 line who think that techno is a bunch of computers making a whole crapload

> who think that techno is a bunch of computers making a whole crapload

I am not one of them pal. Up until a few months ago and a few personal issues, I was one of them nerds with gear trying to write tracks. it ain't anything but art! Cut and paste? So what painters do it and sell their ugly shit that no one can recognize for 1000's of $$$. Why can't we computer nerds cut and paste samples/filter sweeps and make a little dough? Art for art's sake.... I am only trying to demonstrate that Ae has progressed tremendously. (someone said they hadn't progressed much since Incunabula) However, the formula they've been using (Tri Repetae thru Chichli Suite) is getting overdone for a group with so much potential. I have faith that their gonna blow our minds with the next release or two (hopefully soon) If I die tomorrow, however, I'm taking SAW#1 to the grave -0 np: Panacea (it sounds soooo GERMAN to me;)

-0 wrote:

quoted 2 lines Same shit in the end, wicked beats most important seems like. More

> Same shit in the end, wicked beats most important seems like. More > focus on beat then on melody we'd all tend to agree no?

I wish it were different tho'...

quoted 1 line If it's a good loop, let it run forever I say.

> If it's a good loop, let it run forever I say.

Heh :) I once made an Ae tape with "Gnit" looped on the A-side and "Overand" looped on the B-side. Mesmerizing is the appropriate word here...

quoted 2 lines A loop ain't necessarily bad all the time, but it wouldn't be progress (issue

> A loop ain't necessarily bad all the time, but it wouldn't be progress (issue > at hand)

Progress can basically be achieved in two ways: by doing something that throws away all rules and standards, ending up as something entirely new ("lateral" progress) or by staying within a certain framework and ending up as a further refinement of a current style ("transversal" progress). RDJ would be an example of the former category, the Basic Channel sound an example of the latter. The same with loopiness: it might not be groundbreaking anymore, but there is still progress possible (and being made).

quoted 2 lines Yes, part of the equation, but I just wanted to focus on RDJ's SAW#1

> Yes, part of the equation, but I just wanted to focus on RDJ's SAW#1 > as the place where the formula all came together for what we call IDM.

...as one of the places where the formula... There are more facets to this thing we call IDM than just RDJ.... Otto, resident recalcitrant

In message <199710171147.NAA17547@bets.fbk.eur.nl>, Otto Koppius <o.koppius@fac.fbk.eur.nl> writes

quoted 2 lines ...as one of the places where the formula...

>...as one of the places where the formula... >There are more facets to this thing we call IDM than just RDJ....

Yes, that's right....he's only the exact reason this list was created. -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

quoted 12 lines Yes, part of the equation, but I just wanted to focus on RDJ's SAW#1

>Yes, part of the equation, but I just wanted to focus on RDJ's SAW#1 >as the place where the formula all came together for what we call IDM. >(a mad scientist he is:) >> > >> > I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do, >> > but all these minimal IDM artists do follow a standard formula. >> >read... MINIMAL IDM artists. Guess this formula only works with >minimal IDM tracks. stupid me.... > >> except for The Black Dog, B12, Scala (not really minimal IDM I guess), >> Mouse on Mars, Plug (the EP's at least), FSOL, Elfish Echo, Bisk,

The music is not about a formula. There may be common features to many tracks, but this doesn't indicate that artists are just throwing sounds ad hoc into a formula and pressing CDs. You've picked out specific elements of the songs that are common. But even these individual elements vary significantly. And you're ignoring a great deal of the other aspects of the music. ____________________________________________________________________________ Brian Gingold, University of California at Davis "sound" - KDVS 90.3 FM alternate Thursdays 12-3AM ambient/experimental/idm Web: http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~gingold

quoted 11 lines In a message dated 97-10-17 10:01:38 EDT, you write:

> In a message dated 97-10-17 10:01:38 EDT, you write: > > << > minimal? > Elfish Echo? Bisk? Mouse on Mars? Funki Porcini? PLUG!? > > minimal... ?! > > sorry - that's a weird definition for 'minimal'. > >> > Ive heard people describe autechre's work as minimal. The only thing

that

quoted 1 line seems minimal about autechre is there melodies. To me, cichili suite is

> seems minimal about autechre is there melodies. To me, cichili suite is

not

quoted 2 lines minimal at all.

> minimal at all. > dunno....

I hate this word to describe music. I love Panasonic, O, all of Basic Channel releases. And when someone say that this is minimal I go mad. There is no word minimal when we are talking about music. Rob

quoted 1 line Minimal

>>Minimal

quoted 4 lines I hate this word to describe music. I love Panasonic, O, all of

>I hate this word to describe music. I love Panasonic, O, all of >Basic Channel releases. And when someone say that this is >minimal I go mad. There is no word minimal when we are talking >about music.

Why would you hate it? It's a very good word to describe certain types of music. ie. Nurse With Wound's Soliloquy For Lilith is a minimal masterpiece. Maybe you think "minimal" has a negative connotation? I don't see that at all. It's just a descriptive word not an insult!

At 11:15 PM 10/17/97 -0700, lautreamont@cheerful.com wrote:

quoted 5 lines Why would you hate it? It's a very good word to describe certain types of

> >Why would you hate it? It's a very good word to describe certain types of >music. ie. Nurse With Wound's Soliloquy For Lilith is a minimal >masterpiece. Maybe you think "minimal" has a negative connotation? I don't >see that at all. It's just a descriptive word not an insult!

hey.. i keep trying to find this. how is it? what's it like? i love nurse with wound.. ------------------------------------------------- wells oliver : s0ewoliv@titan.vcu.edu "perhaps all pleasure is relief" : w.s.b. -------------------------------------------------

So I have been reading all these posts about formula music and deciding whether to comment or not. But then it occurred to me that at least we are discussing music. Formulas do exist. They exist in all facets of music. Even classical has a formula. Occasionally someone will break from the crowd and do something different. Does formula make it bad? No, a song can be formula and still be quite good as long as they make it their own. This can be achieved in many ways. Through the use of odd sounds or a peculiar arrangement of said formula. A lot of us out there want the creation of music to be complicated and to be highly innovative. We believe it cannot be good with out these factors. I would agree that innovation is important if not essential to having a lasting piece of music. However, complicated music is another story. I do not know how many of you have actually sat down with a drum machine/synthesizer but, I can tell you some things are extremely easy to do. Synth sweeps are a cinch and for those odd sounds a twist of a knob can do wonders. So does this mean anyone can make SAW II? NO. Behind it all is the artist. It is the artist who makes it great. The artist who pours their spirit into the piece and who arranges the patterns in a certain way. That is all music really is, the arrangement of patterns. But in the end it is the artist who makes it great. If you as an artist don't have that certain spark then no matter what you do and what you copy (or what formula you follow) it will never be great. So where am I going with all this? To reiterate formulas are the basis of music of any sort and when an artist relies on said formula the music becomes dull. That is they do not make the formula their own. IMHO electronica right now is suffering from that. To many people are following a formula and not making the formula their own. Perhaps I am not exposed to the proper artists. All I know is recently I have tended more towards jazz than IDM. The innovation in jazz is extreme. Some IDM artists sill amaze me. Namely black dog, les jeameux <sp?>, jega and a few others. One IDM label that has my attention is emissions audio output. The artists on there follow a formula to a degree. But they aren't afraid to take chances. Use odd sounds, odd beats etc. A good example is The 2 lone swordsman. They are brilliant in how they apply their insight to downtempo, techno and house. Blue and being do things in a similar manner. That is they make the formula their own. Another label to look into is Plug Research. The stuff they are putting out is very experimental and taking chances. Perhaps this is to much over analyzing. Perhaps I should drop the needle onto a piece of wax and groove. just my two cents n.p. Jan Hanford - vespers <real audio transmission>; quite nice.