IDM Mailing Archive

On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:25:54AM -0700, William Samuels wrote:

quoted 2 lines In Performance??? You mean the highly riveting mouse

> In Performance??? You mean the highly riveting mouse > clicking between Lexaunculpt & Autechre are different?

Hah!

quoted 5 lines Great Live Show?? I didn't think you could really do a

> Great Live Show?? I didn't think you could really do a > whole hell of a lot of "live" improvisation with > laptops. At one Lexaunculpt show, Alex had someone > else on stage clicking the mouse for him so he could > hang in the audience.

Well, I've seen a few really good live performances with laptops. Kid606, Jake Mandell and one of Jake Mandell's friends from Minneapolis, Brian Tester all use essentially the same approach. Kid606 and Briant Tester both use Reaktor to load in different loops and apply effects to them in realtime, Jake Mandell uses Max/MSP to do the same thing, basically. While they can't completely improvise, this still allows them to shape the music in realtime and really respond to the crowd just as much as say a member of a band could. When I perform live I do any of a number of things... Sometimes I use Tactile 12000s or a similar program to mix between songs, which is fun, but doesn't really allow me to be any more creative than a DJ really, except that I can write a bunch of weird stuff the day of the show to throw in. I've also performed live with AudioMulch and that was completely live. The only problem I have with completely live performances is that unless you work out a bunch of patterns and stuff beforeheand (thus making them not really live), they tend to be really slow-moving and repetitive. Also, I've seen Dan Doormouse, Abelcain and Venetian Snares all perform live with two laptops running trackers (Doormouse and Abelcain use FT2, Venetian Snares uses OctaMed) and beatmatch/crossfade DJ style, which is cool.

quoted 4 lines Sorry to be picky, clicking a mouse doesn't really make for "great

> Sorry to be picky, clicking a mouse doesn't really make for "great > live shows" IMHO. Seeing someone using gear is a hell of a lot more > interesting. However, if the music is vastly different from the > originals that would be nice hearing (not watching).

Well, my main problem with gear is that unless people write a lot of loops ahead of time (thus making it not very live anyway), it tends to be slow-moving and repetitive. -- :: atomly :: atomly@atomly.com | atomly@atdot.org | atomly@curiousnetworks.com http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

well spoken, and by the way, the carpark show at the knitting factory in nyc was live and great! having different factions mixing it up onstage worked amazingly well, especially since those betabodega guys really know how to microvise. there was even a loud request for encore! i was impressed with the enthusiasm and size of that crowd, hmmm, should we consider a move? :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "atomly" <atomly@atomly.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [idm] future of idm

quoted 59 lines On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:25:54AM -0700, William Samuels wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:25:54AM -0700, William Samuels wrote: > > In Performance??? You mean the highly riveting mouse > > clicking between Lexaunculpt & Autechre are different? > > Hah! > > > Great Live Show?? I didn't think you could really do a > > whole hell of a lot of "live" improvisation with > > laptops. At one Lexaunculpt show, Alex had someone > > else on stage clicking the mouse for him so he could > > hang in the audience. > > Well, I've seen a few really good live performances with laptops. > Kid606, Jake Mandell and one of Jake Mandell's friends from Minneapolis, > Brian Tester all use essentially the same approach. Kid606 and Briant > Tester both use Reaktor to load in different loops and apply effects to > them in realtime, Jake Mandell uses Max/MSP to do the same thing, > basically. > > While they can't completely improvise, this still allows them to shape > the music in realtime and really respond to the crowd just as much as > say a member of a band could. > > When I perform live I do any of a number of things... Sometimes I use > Tactile 12000s or a similar program to mix between songs, which is fun, > but doesn't really allow me to be any more creative than a DJ really, > except that I can write a bunch of weird stuff the day of the show to > throw in. > > I've also performed live with AudioMulch and that was completely live. > The only problem I have with completely live performances is that unless > you work out a bunch of patterns and stuff beforeheand (thus making them > not really live), they tend to be really slow-moving and repetitive. > > Also, I've seen Dan Doormouse, Abelcain and Venetian Snares all perform > live with two laptops running trackers (Doormouse and Abelcain use FT2, > Venetian Snares uses OctaMed) and beatmatch/crossfade DJ style, which is > cool. > > > Sorry to be picky, clicking a mouse doesn't really make for "great > > live shows" IMHO. Seeing someone using gear is a hell of a lot more > > interesting. However, if the music is vastly different from the > > originals that would be nice hearing (not watching). > > Well, my main problem with gear is that unless people write a lot of > loops ahead of time (thus making it not very live anyway), it tends to > be slow-moving and repetitive. > > -- > :: atomly :: > > atomly@atomly.com | atomly@atdot.org | atomly@curiousnetworks.com > http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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I've seen some pretty cool shows where people have brought gear and played their keyboards, and made samples live to interact with the audience. Perhaps the beats were pre-programmed, and they had it basically planned out a head of time...but it felt like he was reacting to the crowd's enthusiasm. When I saw Paperclip People in SF. Carl was obviously had a good portion of the music preprogrammed, but he also played the keyboards. I rate this show a lot higher than all of the other mouse clicking shows I had seen that year. If I wanted to watch mouse clicking and hear music. I would wear headphones at work. It's the "air guitar" of the new millennium...sarcasm --- atomly <atomly@atomly.com> wrote:

quoted 4 lines Well, I've seen a few really good live performances

> Well, I've seen a few really good live performances > with laptops. Kid606, Jake Mandell and one of Jake > Mandell's friends from Minneapolis, Brian Tester all > use essentially the same approach. Kid606 and

Briant

quoted 32 lines Tester both use Reaktor to load in different loops

> Tester both use Reaktor to load in different loops > and apply effects to them in realtime, Jake Mandell > uses Max/MSP to do the same thing, basically. > > While they can't completely improvise, this still > allows them to shape the music in realtime and > really respond to the crowd just as much as > say a member of a band could. > > When I perform live I do any of a number of > things... Sometimes I use Tactile 12000s or a > similar program to mix between songs, which is fun, > but doesn't really allow me to be any more creative > than a DJ really, except that I can write a bunch of > weird stuff the day of the show to throw in. > > I've also performed live with AudioMulch and that > was completely live. The only problem I have with > completely live performances is that unless you work > out a bunch of patterns and stuff beforeheand (thus > making them not really live), they tend to be really > slow-moving and repetitive. > > Also, I've seen Dan Doormouse, Abelcain and Venetian > Snares all perform live with two laptops running > trackers (Doormouse and Abelcain use FT2, Venetian > Snares uses OctaMed) and beatmatch/crossfade DJ > style, which is cool. > > Well, my main problem with gear is that unless > people write a lot of loops ahead of time (thus > making it not very live anyway), it tends to be

slow-> moving and repetitive. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near future? I mean sound/genre - anything really. Just interested in hearing some opinions. Thanks, Jamie --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near

>Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near >future? I mean sound/genre - anything really. Just interested in hearing >some opinions.

I think IDM is gonna eventually drop the IDM label and get split into some different names that actually tell you something about the music :) I mean, there's a world of difference between Prefuse 73 and Bola and Autechre. I think the only reason we've been able to use IDM as long as we have is because this stuff really isn't very big, and "electronica" is such an awful term. Oh, you mean the music? Polka. It's all about polka. derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- you'll shoot your eye out --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Superstar IDM DJs. No doubt. Expect to see awful IDM mix albums, advertisements on tv, and over-hyped IDM clubs. m. On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 08:54 AM, James WHITE wrote:

quoted 13 lines Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near

> Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near > future? I mean sound/genre - anything really. Just interested in > hearing > some opinions. > > Thanks, > Jamie > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 7 lines On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 08:54 AM, James WHITE wrote:

> > >On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 08:54 AM, James WHITE wrote: > >>Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near >>future? I mean sound/genre - anything really. Just interested in hearing >>some opinions.

Boy band/girl group type ensembles ala Destiny's Child, In Sync with strap on guitar-looking keyboards which are really laptops. Expect a revival of RDJ's dancing bear which will include several "friends" of other species - all choreographed by Paula Abdul. Or maybe an IDM skiffle hybrid. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Mxyzptlk wrote:

quoted 10 lines On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 08:54 AM, James WHITE wrote:

> > > > > > >On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 08:54 AM, James WHITE wrote: > > > >>Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near > >>future? I mean sound/genre - anything really. Just interested in hearing > >>some opinions. > > Boy band/girl group type ensembles ala Destiny's Child

Ah, girl/boy bands :-) JC --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 15 lines On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Mxyzptlk wrote:

>On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Mxyzptlk wrote: > >> >> > >> > >> >On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 08:54 AM, James WHITE wrote: >> > >> >>Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near >> >>future? I mean sound/genre - anything really. Just interested in hearing >> >>some opinions. >> >> Boy band/girl group type ensembles ala Destiny's Child > > >Ah, girl/boy bands :-)

girl on boy bands :) derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- you'll shoot your eye out --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 10/30/02 9:49:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwhite@ShoppersDrugMart.CA writes:

quoted 3 lines Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near

> Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near > future? I mean sound/genre - anything really. Just interested in hearing > some opinions.

to hell in a handbasket? its becoming "genre" music now, like "industrial," "drum n bass," "house," "punk" etc.. producers start wondering if their tracks are "idm" enough. it used to be that idm was wierd experimental music that no one could categorize, it will be a genre with its own rules and subculture. kids in highschool will walk around with moptops and laptops wearing schematic t-shirts.. soon there will be a band that will have vocals and make it mainstreamish, and everyone on this list will be very upset. 15 year old kids will start joining the list and ask who aphex twin is. the 'post-warp' era is coming if not already here.. you wait and see

quoted 12 lines In a message dated 10/30/02 9:49:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,

>In a message dated 10/30/02 9:49:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jwhite@ShoppersDrugMart.CA writes: > > >> Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near >> future? I mean sound/genre - anything really. Just interested in hearing >> some opinions. > >to hell in a handbasket? > >its becoming "genre" music now, like "industrial," "drum n bass," "house," >"punk" etc..

See, now despite what I said in my past post, this is what I'm not sure about. Perhaps the moniker "IDM" will stick around, and the different parts of it that DO fit into genres well (such as, say, the "post-hop" stuff) will splinter off into its own genre, leaving the "weird" stuff under the "IDM" name? It's happened before. IDM used to be the name for quiet, glitchy music, but now that's called "microsound." So now the microsound stuff has its own name, whereas the stuff that's outside of it is still referred to as "IDM." "Techno" used to be the catch-all phrase for anything electronic, sometimes with or without vocals, and some people still use it as such, but it generally has a very well-defined genre that it fits now. Is that bad? Well, not really -- it helps people know what to expect that are looking for that, but also helps people avoid it if they want. I love me some good IDM, but I would probably never buy a record that was called (at least, by someone on this list) "techno." Either it's too broad or it means detroit-style acidy techno. It really wouldn't surprise me if some of the more "out there" idm-genres split off and become their own "genre." I mean, the hyper-noisy stuff like Venetian Snares is ages away from the melodic Marumari stuff, and depending on what artists do and call themselves, *something* is going to split them off. The term "idm" has for many people lost any actual meaning, as much of the stuff called "idm" hasn't been even remotely dance music since, what, '97? :D It really wouldn't surprise me if stuff called "idm" stuck around for years or decades, always on the edge of electronic music, before the "genre monkeys" you speak of get ahold of it. Some of the artists will happily accept a genre label that's more specific, as they probably care more about making good music than necessarily sounding "new." Plaid would be a good example, as their releases are ultimately rather similar and if a genre came about that they fit into, you could probably lump all of their releases (including black dog stuff, probably) into it. Some artists will end up continually making new stuff, refusing to be easily classified (such as Autechre) and I think those are the groups that will continually be called just plain-jane IDM. Despite how unplain it is. derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- you'll shoot your eye out --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

[EggyToast <eggy@eggytoast.com>]

quoted 4 lines It's happened before. IDM used to be the name for quiet, glitchy

> It's happened before. IDM used to be the name for quiet, glitchy > music, but now that's called "microsound." So now the microsound > stuff has its own name, whereas the stuff that's outside of it is > still referred to as "IDM."

IDM started as a name for "intelligent techno," like early Autechre and Aphex Twin.

quoted 8 lines "Techno" used to be the catch-all phrase for anything electronic,

> "Techno" used to be the catch-all phrase for anything electronic, > sometimes with or without vocals, and some people still use it as > such, but it generally has a very well-defined genre that it fits now. > Is that bad? Well, not really -- it helps people know what to expect > that are looking for that, but also helps people avoid it if they > want. I love me some good IDM, but I would probably never buy a > record that was called (at least, by someone on this list) "techno." > Either it's too broad or it means detroit-style acidy techno.

Techno has meant this since the 80s. It started to be used as a blanket term in the early 90s by outsiders but that has somewhat fallen off.

quoted 5 lines It really wouldn't surprise me if some of the more "out there"

> It really wouldn't surprise me if some of the more "out there" > idm-genres split off and become their own "genre." I mean, the > hyper-noisy stuff like Venetian Snares is ages away from the melodic > Marumari stuff, and depending on what artists do and call themselves, > *something* is going to split them off.

I don't think Venetian Snares would ever call himself IDM. Drug and bass and breakcore are the names I've heard him use. -- :: atomly :: [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 877.741.3571 ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 8 lines [EggyToast <eggy@eggytoast.com>]

>[EggyToast <eggy@eggytoast.com>] >> It's happened before. IDM used to be the name for quiet, glitchy >> music, but now that's called "microsound." So now the microsound >> stuff has its own name, whereas the stuff that's outside of it is >> still referred to as "IDM." > >IDM started as a name for "intelligent techno," like early Autechre and >Aphex Twin.

I know. What I mean is that microsound was called IDM. People didn't know what to call it, and figured it would be lumped into whatever "IDM" is.

quoted 2 lines Techno has meant this since the 80s. It started to be used as a blanket

>Techno has meant this since the 80s. It started to be used as a blanket >term in the early 90s by outsiders but that has somewhat fallen off.

Agreed. I think it happened mostly because people referred to IDM as techno, figuring it had obvious connections to detroit techno (which is arguably true). Now that there's other names for it, I think it's easy to call what was originally just "techno," techno.

quoted 2 lines I don't think Venetian Snares would ever call himself IDM. Drug and

>I don't think Venetian Snares would ever call himself IDM. Drug and >bass and breakcore are the names I've heard him use.

Sure. That's exactly what I mean -- people making the stuff will say "i'm something else," or a group that would otherwise get lumped into one genre will say "no, we're something else." If the name sticks and other people decide to join, a genre is born! In fact, I brought up mr. snares exactly for that reason. He's someone that would be lumped broadly into the IDM category at, say, a record store. He could be put into the drum 'n bass category, but he's sort of too noisy, and he's not really made for dancing at all, so they put him in with the aphex twin and the autechre and the other "weird electronic music that doesn't really fit into another category [yet]" stuff. But he says "no, don't put me there; I'm something else entirely." Now, he can say all he wants, of course, but if he's still always put right in that IDM category, then most everyone will call him that. However, if more people start making music like him, and saying "no no, we're "drug 'n bass" or "breakcore," then the more backing there is to calling that a genre and possibly convincing the record stores, the music discussion lists, and everything else to start calling it that. You can't have a genre of yourself -- that's a given ("oh, I make eggy music"). When other people adopt it, follow it, use it -- then it's a genre. mr. snares may very well be on his way to his own genre, but it depends on what happens *next*. derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- you'll shoot your eye out --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

You people have already gone and done it by lamenting over and over about British Hip Hop for the past 72 hours. Do you not see the subgenre IDMers have created thus far with the recent catch phrase of glitch-hop and all its predecessors to that of down tempo acid jazz to ambient noise which are all entirely related to the mere philosophy of dsp acoustical trickery which so many kids today only correlate to Intelligent Dance Music. This genre is so massive now that I wouldn?t be surprised to see a Deborah Harry (Blondie) or Yoko Ono remix pop up on the list in say the next eight months which people will then begin denying it has and relevance to our first love. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I'm gonna recommend that everybody check out the new Grand Theft Auto: Vice City soundtracks, esp. the Box set, which is only about $40 or so for seven CDs. Having watched this game being played over the past two days I have observed that several of the radio stations genuinely kick ass, esp. the 'Wildstyle' pirate station and 'Wave 103.5'. That and the fact that it's easily cheaper and better than Rhino's recent 'Totally 80s' box set. Sigue Sigue Sputnik. Cybotron. Ozzy Osbourne. Cheat codes. You can't go wrong. Tom --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

--- "Gaylord M. Focker" <gaylordmfocker@yahoo.com> wrote:

quoted 6 lines I wouldn?t be surprised to see a

> I wouldn?t be surprised to see a > Deborah Harry (Blondie) or Yoko Ono remix pop up on > the list in say the next eight months which people > will then begin denying it has and relevance to our > first love. >

don't know 'bout debbie harry but yoko commissioned a remix from herbert to be released shortly. gregory ===== )the fawn )"i thought when i started playing )shows i'd meet a lot of really cool )people, but most of the people i've )met just want me to copy software )for them" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 CAPOIIEE@aol.com wrote:

quoted 9 lines In a message dated 10/30/02 9:49:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> In a message dated 10/30/02 9:49:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jwhite@ShoppersDrugMart.CA writes: > > > Hello. I was just wondering where everyone sees IDM going in the near > > future? I mean sound/genre - anything really. Just interested in hearing > > some opinions. > > to hell in a handbasket? >

To me, it is quite telling that the definition of the name of the list has come up in this thread, and people are actually doing research to find out things about the list while on the list. Sad. ("Why is so much attention given to Warp's recent past?") By no small fault of the list itself, concentrating on the machinery and mechanics of IDM production, from DSP Max to spotting the sort of algorithms used in a particular track through to requesting patches for Max similar to those used by Autechre. I find that the culmination point of the whole discussion on the relevance of IDM is the article on Richard Devine on Wired (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.03/eword.html?pg=4), because "It never gets old [...] As processor speeds go up, the crazier my music gets!" In a later issue, laptop techno gets a thumbs up from the self-appointed digerati life-style magazine: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.05/laptop.html . I do not wish to appear deprecative towards mainstream recognition of the culture and music I've been entrenched in for the past well over a decade. Nevertheless, focusing on the technologies and mechanics of production simply take the attention away from the music itself. The music becomes more appealing to some people because it is generated using the latest gadgets, gizmos and software. I have since the beginning been interested in the music, mainly because I've had a (partial) classical musical education. I still find being able to play a real, physical instrument more valuable than being able to tweak virtual knobs and variables inside software. I do use software myself, nevertheless the emphasis is on the actual process of composing, not the use and availability of plug-ins, algorithms, combinations of software and good old raw processing power. It seems to me that what nowadays is characterised as IDM is music for engineers. The pool of diverse genres that used to be IDM has been dried up, and electronic music is, or has already become, the soulless sort of music it used to be accused of being in the beginning.

quoted 3 lines its becoming "genre" music now, like "industrial," "drum n bass,&

> its becoming "genre" music now, like "industrial," "drum n bass," "house," > "punk" etc.. >

All music degenerates this way. From my point of view, IDM started as a counterreaction to the somewhat stagnated music scene in the UK.

quoted 4 lines producers start wondering if their tracks are "idm" enough. it used to be

> producers start wondering if their tracks are "idm" enough. it used to be > that idm was wierd experimental music that no one could categorize, it will > be a genre with its own rules and subculture. >

I would call rules functions and subculture subroutines. Categorisation is how we make sense of our immediate surroundings and create structure in our lives. It is inevitable and unavoidable. I find it quite sarcastic that RePHLeX categorised the music they release as Braindance, as a piss-take on the stagnancy and canonised goings-on on IDM. I wonder if anyone else has realised this.

quoted 7 lines kids in highschool will walk around with moptops and laptops wearing

> kids in highschool will walk around with moptops and laptops wearing > schematic t-shirts.. soon there will be a band that will have vocals > and make it mainstreamish, and everyone on this list will be very > upset. 15 year old kids will start joining the list and ask who aphex > twin is. the 'post-warp' era is coming if not already here.. you wait > and see >

I have already been upset for a number of years. The numbers of veterans on the list have dwindled almost down to nothing. Mostly, I just depress the D button (as suggested in a recent post) when the prefix [idm] appears on my message list. It is quite easy to judge if a posting is worthy of attention by the subject line. Time consuming, yes, due to the drivel that passes as IDM nowadays. So, why do I still hang on? Because there is gold in them mines. Every now and then something I deem worth my while comes up, and then I'm again glad that I didn't dismiss the list as a waste of my time. Not that there is a lot to say about the recent discussions, mind you. A friend on the list said before unsubscribing, "This list used to be the shit. Now it's just shit." To me, the future of the list is what the people on the list make of it. We could moderate. We could spawn parallel lists. There are a number of things we could do. All things that could be done would (and perhaps will) be construed to be elitistic snobbery. Nevertheless, I do not advocate anything. I will stay on the list. I will still listen to my Warps, GPRs, Likeminds, Skams, and whatnot. Just to bring in some music content as well, today I've been listening to the following: D'Arcangelo: Broken Toys' Corner (RePHLeX CAT127LP 2xLP) Dr. Derek F: Acidic Possession (Skam-related 12") Silicon Scally: Mr. Machine (SCSI-AV ID009 2xLP) Zero DB: Audio Battery (Black Label BL002 12") Ada: Blindhouse (Areal AREAL10 12") In my not-at-all-humble opinion, all are relevant and on-topic releases for IDM. Cheers, -- nuutti-iivari meriläinen gordon at diversion dot org http colon slash slash www dot diversion dot org slash --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

--- CAPOIIEE@aol.com wrote:

quoted 4 lines soon there will

>soon there will > be a band that will have vocals and make it > mainstreamish, and everyone on > this list will be very upset.

i definitely will not be upset. i've been waiting for it actually. if bjork were american it would have already happened. as soon as this happens, i think there will be serious explosions of good music on the fringes. post-punk vs punk, electro vs. new wave, psych vs. rock n roll, etc. gregory ===== )the fawn )"i thought when i started playing )shows i'd meet a lot of really cool )people, but most of the people i've )met just want me to copy software )for them" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 10/30/02 3:19:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, eggy@eggytoast.com writes:

quoted 4 lines It's happened before. IDM used to be the name for quiet, glitchy

> It's happened before. IDM used to be the name for quiet, glitchy > music, but now that's called "microsound." So now the microsound > stuff has its own name, whereas the stuff that's outside of it is > still referred to as "IDM."

Actually IDM means, obviously, "Intelligent Dance Music", which was a term coined by a journalist in the early 90's trying to explain the sound of the Orb. It was later applied to Warp Records, which at the time was still danceable. The term stuck over the years, and then this list came about. Later Warp evolved into the glitchy stuff, and this list began discussing that instead. And thats why it means glitchy micro stuff today. Which means it already is a "genre" kind of music. The 3 letter acronym no longer means what it originally was, but only embodies a kind of sound, that people try to fit into. Same thing with punk rock or hip hop or rock. None of the genre names actually have anything to do with the kind of music they represent. But anyhow.. I feel that there are 2 kinds of music: "Music" and "Genre Music". Music is by musicians that are influenced by musics and get pegged into categories, but they just make music for musics sake. These producers expand, change, and grow with their tastes and the times. Then there is genre music. Genre music producers pick a genre of music they like, and only make that kind of music. The majority of club music is made in this fashion. Same with certain types of punk, metal, goth, hiphop, etc. This is for people who say "I am Goth, I like this band becaue this is a Goth band." Thats what I think will happen to IDM. In fact it is already happening. People become "IDM" producers, and try to mimic autechre or squarepusher. They play "IDM" shows, and they have an IDM style. I dont think it can be stopped, and personally, i dont mind. I just see it happening, and wanted to share that.

On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 CAPOIIEE@aol.com wrote:

quoted 3 lines Actually IDM means, obviously, "Intelligent Dance Music", which was a term

> Actually IDM means, obviously, "Intelligent Dance Music", which was a term > coined by a journalist in the early 90's trying to explain the sound of the > Orb.

I am fairly certain the term was actually coined by Brian Behlendorf when he created the mailing list (this mailing list!). It was named after the Warp "Artificial Intelligence" compilations: http://idm.skylab.org/199308/msg00001.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 12 lines In a message dated 10/30/02 3:19:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>In a message dated 10/30/02 3:19:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, >eggy@eggytoast.com writes: > > >> It's happened before. IDM used to be the name for quiet, glitchy >> music, but now that's called "microsound." So now the microsound >> stuff has its own name, whereas the stuff that's outside of it is >> still referred to as "IDM." > >Actually IDM means, obviously, "Intelligent Dance Music", which was a term >coined by a journalist in the early 90's trying to explain the sound of the >Orb.

As I said in the mail in response to mr. atomly, I meant this the other way around -- that microsound didn't used to be called microsound; it was lumped into "idm." Eventually it spurred its own genre when it had a large enough following. which leads us to...

quoted 12 lines But anyhow.. I feel that there are 2 kinds of music: "Music" and "Genre

>But anyhow.. I feel that there are 2 kinds of music: "Music" and "Genre >Music". Music is by musicians that are influenced by musics and get pegged >into categories, but they just make music for musics sake. These producers >expand, change, and grow with their tastes and the times. Then there is genre >music. Genre music producers pick a genre of music they like, and only make >that kind of music. The majority of club music is made in this fashion. Same >with certain types of punk, metal, goth, hiphop, etc. This is for people who >say "I am Goth, I like this band becaue this is a Goth band." Thats what I >think will happen to IDM. In fact it is already happening. People become >"IDM" producers, and try to mimic autechre or squarepusher. They play "IDM" >shows, and they have an IDM style. I dont think it can be stopped, and >personally, i dont mind. I just see it happening, and wanted to share that.

Sure, I can see that distinction. I don't necessarily agree, though :D Most artists are influenced from somewhere: rock musicians hear other rockers, cello players hear other cellists, and so on. Aphex Twin hears some crazy techno and says 'cool.' The end results may be different in all cases, but they all started with some ideas that got in their heads *somehow*. The controversy over something as simple as "The Hokey Pokey" proves that there are very, very rarely any truly original ideas. I'd argue that some people like Aphex Twin and the like possibly tried to be what you call "genre music," but failed and came up with something else -- something else that they liked more anyway! As I've said in other posts to the list, one of the things I like about the IDM genre is that it is pretty varied and that most of the people are here because they like some aspect of IDM. In my mind, keeping it so broad sort of deters those "genre people," as, you know, what exactly is "IDM" anyway? It's easy to be goth, or punk, or to make a certain style of music, but how do you "make idm?" And if you want to sound like Aphex Twin, does that mean his SAW2 album, his "ICBYD" album, his hyper-drum'nbass albums, or his AFX techno-ey acid albums? And after you get past Aphex Twin, who else do you want to sound like? If you want to sound like Plaid you certainly don't sound like Oval, yet they're both IDM, and if you want to sound like Autechre you probably won't and will get yelled at, yet will still be IDM :) Many have said that IDM isn't all Autechre and Squarepusher, and in fact they make up a very, very small portion of the sound that's present in this large, nebulous genre. If you go to an IDM show, what can you expect? Crunchy beats with harsh melodies? Perhaps soft beats with gentle melodies like Bola? Booty shaking Richard Devine or Booty shaking Amon Tobin? One of the weird things about the IDM list is that it is so inconsistent in what it likes :) Each person on this list has different tastes and it makes for some pretty good (or bad) arguments. When a style of music gets large enough, many of those people form a new list and flock to that, but the people left on the IDM list generally aren't too fond of that style. So in those cases, IDM becomes everything *but* the new genre. I know that's not entirely true to the point of exclusivity, but if a new genre that defines "crunchy beets and harsh melodies" is named and followed, arguably there'll be less discussion of it on the idm-list and more discussion on the c-beets-list. Same with mr. snares -- there'll probably be a "noisy harsh drum 'n bass stuff like mr. snares makes" list formed sometime soon, and people interested will join *that* list and discuss it on *that* list, leaving us here on the IDM list to talk about other things. Again, not to the point of exclusivity, but enough that it's noticeable. And people will gladly point out that a new release has aspects of that new genre with parts of old genres and have some element of that good-ol' nebulous IDM. derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- you'll shoot your eye out --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 10/30/02 3:39:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, idm@cocksalad.com writes:

quoted 6 lines I am fairly certain the term was actually coined by Brian Behlendorf when

> I am fairly certain the term was actually coined by Brian Behlendorf when > he created the mailing list (this mailing list!). It was named after the > Warp "Artificial Intelligence" compilations: > > http://idm.skylab.org/199308/msg00001.html >

woah, hey yer right.. thanks. somehow an interview with alex patterson stuck in my mind as him saying that.. but anyhow thanks for clearing that up..

The snares thing is pretty interesting. Because he was some sort of noise, hardcore, breakbeat whatever hybrid, which was generally outside the realm of "IDM". And then, he got signed to planet-mu, and all of a sudden he was "IDM". Its interesting because it seemingly validated alot of peoples interest in hardcore strains, and brought at least a little increased interest to what was going on in that scene (subsequently doormouse getting an album on mu etc...) - cutups

quoted 39 lines I don't think Venetian Snares would ever call himself IDM. Drug and

> >I don't think Venetian Snares would ever call himself IDM. Drug and > >bass and breakcore are the names I've heard him use. > > Sure. That's exactly what I mean -- people making the stuff will say > "i'm something else," or a group that would otherwise get lumped into > one genre will say "no, we're something else." If the name sticks > and other people decide to join, a genre is born! > > In fact, I brought up mr. snares exactly for that reason. He's > someone that would be lumped broadly into the IDM category at, say, a > record store. He could be put into the drum 'n bass category, but > he's sort of too noisy, and he's not really made for dancing at all, > so they put him in with the aphex twin and the autechre and the other > "weird electronic music that doesn't really fit into another category > [yet]" stuff. But he says "no, don't put me there; I'm something > else entirely." Now, he can say all he wants, of course, but if he's > still always put right in that IDM category, then most everyone will > call him that. However, if more people start making music like him, > and saying "no no, we're "drug 'n bass" or "breakcore," then the more > backing there is to calling that a genre and possibly convincing the > record stores, the music discussion lists, and everything else to > start calling it that. You can't have a genre of yourself -- that's > a given ("oh, I make eggy music"). When other people adopt it, > follow it, use it -- then it's a genre. > > mr. snares may very well be on his way to his own genre, but it > depends on what happens *next*. > > derek > -- > eggytoast.com > -------------- > you'll shoot your eye out > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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[cutups <cutup@andythepooh.com>]

quoted 9 lines The snares thing is pretty interesting. Because he was some sort of

> The snares thing is pretty interesting. Because he was some sort of > noise, hardcore, breakbeat whatever hybrid, which was generally > outside the realm of "IDM". And then, he got signed to planet-mu, and > all of a sudden he was "IDM". > > Its interesting because it seemingly validated alot of peoples > interest in hardcore strains, and brought at least a little increased > interest to what was going on in that scene (subsequently doormouse > getting an album on mu etc...)

Yea, but it unfortunately also coincided with the death of the scene, at least around Chicago. Are the C8 archives still around? I'd like to go back and take a look at the threads that started discussing Aaron's signing to Planet Mu and what it would mean for the scene. -- :: atomly :: [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 877.741.3571 ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Fuck me!!! All along I thought Doormouse had talent or that's at least what Mr. Paradinis saw in him to accept his gyrating stage presence amongst the dull monotony of the labels other signings. --- cutups <cutup@andythepooh.com> wrote:

quoted 17 lines The snares thing is pretty interesting. Because he

> The snares thing is pretty interesting. Because he > was some sort of > noise, hardcore, breakbeat whatever hybrid, which > was generally > outside the realm of "IDM". And then, he got signed > to planet-mu, > and all of a sudden he was "IDM". > > Its interesting because it seemingly validated alot > of peoples > interest in hardcore strains, and brought at least a > little increased > interest to what was going on in that scene > (subsequently doormouse getting > an album on mu etc...) > > - cutups

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

["Gaylord M. Focker" <gaylordmfocker@yahoo.com>]

quoted 3 lines Fuck me!!! All along I thought Doormouse had talent or that's at

> Fuck me!!! All along I thought Doormouse had talent or that's at > least what Mr. Paradinis saw in him to accept his gyrating stage > presence amongst the dull monotony of the labels other signings.

Yea, but Dan's been doing that around the midwest for years and the only people that seemed to care were drunk people from Wisconsin. Now "intelligent" people care. *wank wank* -- :: atomly :: [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 877.741.3571 ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines producers start wondering if their tracks are "idm" enough. it used to be

> producers start wondering if their tracks are "idm" enough. it used to be > that idm was wierd experimental music that no one could categorize, it

will

quoted 1 line be a genre with its own rules and subculture. kids in highschool will

> be a genre with its own rules and subculture. kids in highschool will

walk

quoted 1 line around with moptops and laptops wearing schematic t-shirts.. soon there

> around with moptops and laptops wearing schematic t-shirts.. soon there

will

quoted 1 line be a band that will have vocals and make it mainstreamish, and everyone

> be a band that will have vocals and make it mainstreamish, and everyone

on

quoted 1 line this list will be very upset.

> this list will be very upset.

Yeah, well, people have been making predictions about electronic music going mainstream for at least ten years now. Instrumental music will probably never be as marketable as vocal music. And even if some artists make it big, there will always be tiny labels putting out weird underground stuff. But who cares if the music's popular if it's what you like to listen to? I'd still buy Ae albums even if every high schooler in America was wearing an Ae T-shirt. If you just see electronic music as a status symbol, that's pretty sad.

quoted 2 lines IDM started as a name for "intelligent techno," like early Autechre and

> IDM started as a name for "intelligent techno," like early Autechre and > Aphex Twin.

Just to clarify, "IDM" was coined by the creators of this mailing list. It's never been a good descriptive term for a genre since from the beginning this list has discussed everything from jazz and hip hop to techno and gamelan. In my mind, labelling a music store record bin "IDM" is akin to labelling a record bin "The Wire." I've never really understood it. J --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines Just to clarify, "IDM" was coined by the creators of this mailing list.

>Just to clarify, "IDM" was coined by the creators of this mailing list. >It's never been a good descriptive term for a genre since from the >beginning this list has discussed everything from jazz and hip hop to >techno and gamelan. In my mind, labelling a music store record bin "IDM" is >akin to labelling a record bin "The Wire." I've never really understood it.

Seems to be that the record store IDM bin contains just misc. weird electronic stuff. Not even necessarily stuff that gets talked about on the list. It's like they take a listen, don't know what it is exactly, and toss it in :) I mean, it's sort of like the list. We're kind of a big ol' "misc file." derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- kills germs on contact --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

That upcoming schematic show he's playing looks disgusting. I think with otto they can't be too surprized by dan...but i think he's proven people long before. Maimi has it pretty good these days. - cutups ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Warchild" <warchild@djwarchild.com> To: "atomly" <atomly@atomly.com>; <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [idm] Future of IDM

quoted 4 lines I hear Dan picked up and moved to Miami to be closer to his GF while she's

> I hear Dan picked up and moved to Miami to be closer to his GF while she's > in college... Man those people are not gonna know what the fuck to do with > him. >

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[cutups <cutup@andythepooh.com>]

quoted 3 lines That upcoming schematic show he's playing looks disgusting. I think

> That upcoming schematic show he's playing looks disgusting. I think > with otto they can't be too surprized by dan...but i think he's proven > people long before.

Otto rocked it at WTW- I think he knows what's up.

quoted 1 line Maimi has it pretty good these days.

> Maimi has it pretty good these days.

Between Will Smith and Dan, they're set. Heh. -- :: atomly :: [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 877.741.3571 ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I hear Dan picked up and moved to Miami to be closer to his GF while she's in college... Man those people are not gonna know what the fuck to do with him. Rich Warchild 781-856-3804 AIM: TheDJWarchild ICQ: 2021032 http://www.DJWarchild.Com Ruffneck Playaz Crew (http://www.ruffneckplayazcrew.com) All Indians No Chiefs (http://nochiefs.net) Just Two Managment/Gravity Services (http://www.justtwo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: "atomly" <atomly@atomly.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [idm] Future of IDM

quoted 19 lines ["Gaylord M. Focker" <gaylordmfocker@yahoo.com>]

> ["Gaylord M. Focker" <gaylordmfocker@yahoo.com>] > > Fuck me!!! All along I thought Doormouse had talent or that's at > > least what Mr. Paradinis saw in him to accept his gyrating stage > > presence amongst the dull monotony of the labels other signings. > > Yea, but Dan's been doing that around the midwest for years and the only > people that seemed to care were drunk people from Wisconsin. Now > "intelligent" people care. *wank wank* > > -- > :: atomly :: > > [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... > [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 877.741.3571 ... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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[Rich Warchild <warchild@djwarchild.com>]

quoted 3 lines I hear Dan picked up and moved to Miami to be closer to his GF while

> I hear Dan picked up and moved to Miami to be closer to his GF while > she's in college... Man those people are not gonna know what the fuck > to do with him.

Yea, he sold the store and moved about a month or so ago... Too bad for the midwest- I hope people pick up the slack because he really did a lot around here (the store, WTW, the labels, etc) -- :: atomly :: [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 877.741.3571 ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Ohh damn i didn't think he sold everything.. . I figured he would just relocate.. Damn, I hope they still do the WTW parties.. I've yet to goto one and desperatly want to. Rich Warchild 781-856-3804 AIM: TheDJWarchild ICQ: 2021032 http://www.DJWarchild.Com Ruffneck Playaz Crew (http://www.ruffneckplayazcrew.com) All Indians No Chiefs (http://nochiefs.net) Just Two Managment/Gravity Services (http://www.justtwo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: "atomly" <atomly@atomly.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [idm] Future of IDM

quoted 19 lines [Rich Warchild <warchild@djwarchild.com>]

> [Rich Warchild <warchild@djwarchild.com>] > > I hear Dan picked up and moved to Miami to be closer to his GF while > > she's in college... Man those people are not gonna know what the fuck > > to do with him. > > Yea, he sold the store and moved about a month or so ago... Too bad for > the midwest- I hope people pick up the slack because he really did a lot > around here (the store, WTW, the labels, etc) > > -- > :: atomly :: > > [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... > [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 877.741.3571 ... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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boy, eould that suck!