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with all the commotion i hear surrounding the classical composer Stockhausen, i thought i'd bring this subject up. How much do you think the avant garde composers of the classical world have influenced the electronic musicians of today? Can you hear Stockhausen and Reich in Aphex Twin's work? How about the infamous Penderecki and his violin noise assaults? John Cage and his 4min33sec composition (or lack thereof). Is the connection there? all the best, Luke _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Most of the connections exist via association, not via influence. The majority of "complex electronic music" that is discussed on this list has little-to-no influence derived from anything in the classical world, barring, perhaps, a scale or the circle fifths or something. It's mostly a fan association - we like complex things, so we seek out other complex things. I believe Richard Devine states he was influenced by some classical music when he was growing up. At least, according to his Native Instruments interview. Mostly, though, his influence is based on the "separate movements" of classical music, not any particular avant garde composer. Many of the mentioned artists have done good things for allowing music that we enjoy to exist, but not directly. cheers, /derek At 05:08 PM 7/6/2001 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 21 lines with all the commotion i hear surrounding the classical composer

>with all the commotion i hear surrounding the classical composer >Stockhausen, i thought i'd bring this subject up. > >How much do you think the avant garde composers of the classical world >have influenced the electronic musicians of today? Can you hear >Stockhausen and Reich in Aphex Twin's work? How about the infamous >Penderecki and his violin noise assaults? John Cage and his 4min33sec >composition (or lack thereof). > >Is the connection there? > >all the best, >Luke >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, EggyToast wrote:

quoted 5 lines Most of the connections exist via association, not via influence.

> Most of the connections exist via association, not via influence. > > The majority of "complex electronic music" that is discussed on this list > has little-to-no influence derived from anything in the classical world, > barring, perhaps, a scale or the circle fifths or something.

If I understand you correctly, I nearly completely disagree with you. Perhaps, and I emphasize, *perhaps* no composers mentioned on this list have listened to any serialist or minimalist composers (the recent Steve Reich remix album already disputes your claim) and have stealthfully avoided Schoenberg, Schaeffer, Cage, Stockhausen, Xenakis and Boulez (just the big ones). I'd already have to stretch pretty far to believe that such an umbrella has been ducked under, but okay, I'll try it. However, there is no doubt in my mind that their contributions to the study of sound and the body of knowledge they created put us squarely where we are today. The statistical analysis of sound leads to the idea of sampling, modular synthesis (from IRCAM and elsewhere), stochastic composition, I can't think of one area that the academic forefathers didn't touch. The only difference and distance between "us" and them is that the tools are now readily available and widespread, and every other home has a machine powerful enough to harness those tools. The tools came pretty directly from the academic camps, though. Try to name one that didn't. The only one I can think of was FM synthesis (a commercial venture and patent, I believe). Or try asking yourself, what kind of music would Autechre be playing right now without Max/MSP (via IRCAM) and the Nord Modular? It's actually quite amazing that we have such the variety we have in the IDM "genre", considering how the tools are nearly exactly the same. Kind of like painting, I guess. Well, I'm not exactly sure what tangent I've gotten on to at this point...there isn't anything wrong with recognizing influence, as long as you can move past it. Perhaps saying "it isn't them" helps certain people move along and create without anxiety. Then again, how important is the creator(s) of the guitar, or the piano or computer to the creation of the music? Sure you can make a solid arguement for the aformentioned for their contributions to the technology of music as well as their compositions, but we usually don't praise that nearly as much. How important are the tools? Would we even have IDM without them? _________________________ Christopher Sorg Multimedia Artist/Teacher http://csorg.cjb.net csorg@enteract.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Luke, There was quite an amusing article in The Wire some years ago where contemporary electronica artists were invited to comment on Stockhausen's work (mostly favourable) and then Stockhausen was played some of their work and he was very critical and dismissive. Personally, I can't imagine today's electronica without Lygeti, Stockhausen, Reich, Cage, Glass and co. That's not to say there haven't been many other influences as well of course. If you're interested and haven't already heard of it I'd recommend the 3cd sampler 'Ohm: the early gurus of electronic music 1948-1980' which contains works by many of the aforementioned as well as Varese, Riley, Xenakis, LaMonte Young, Oliveros, etc. All the best, Colin. _____________________________ "... and life is a song sung low and cool to rouse the gentle spirit." (Jeff Noon)

quoted 25 lines From: Luke C <nkey04@hotmail.com>

> From: Luke C <nkey04@hotmail.com> > Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:08:41 -0500 > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: [idm] the stockhausen effect > > with all the commotion i hear surrounding the classical composer > Stockhausen, i thought i'd bring this subject up. > > How much do you think the avant garde composers of the classical world have > influenced the electronic musicians of today? Can you hear Stockhausen and > Reich in Aphex Twin's work? How about the infamous Penderecki and his violin > noise assaults? John Cage and his 4min33sec composition (or lack thereof). > > Is the connection there? > > all the best, > Luke > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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(see post below) As I said later in my post with "Many of the mentioned artists have done good things for allowing music that we enjoy to exist, but not directly," I meant that these artists are definitely responsible for allowing music such as autechre, et al to be produced. Their work in academic and other fields is astonishing, but I don't think they have much direct influence in the majority of IDM. What I mean by that, is I don't think autechre listened to any of them. I doubt many electronic musicians we discuss on the list spent any time listening to any of this body of classical work, at least not until they were much further into producing electronic music. Obviously, we'd have to ask the artists, but that's what I'm on about. When I started playing around with production, I hadn't listened to any "avant garde" classical work, and from the artists I've spoken to, neither had they. To me, that's not much influence. Simply because similar tools were available doesn't mean I'm influenced by these composers. It's like saying someone HAS to be influenced by big name sax players, just because they were pioneers for the tools/instruments. Sure they made finding and using the tool easier, but that's an industry influence, not musical. cheers, /derek At 06:22 PM 7/6/2001 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 48 lines On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, EggyToast wrote:

>On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, EggyToast wrote: > > > Most of the connections exist via association, not via influence. > > > > The majority of "complex electronic music" that is discussed on this list > > has little-to-no influence derived from anything in the classical world, > > barring, perhaps, a scale or the circle fifths or something. > >If I understand you correctly, I nearly completely disagree with you. >Perhaps, and I emphasize, *perhaps* no composers mentioned on this list >have listened to any serialist or minimalist composers (the recent Steve >Reich remix album already disputes your claim) and have stealthfully >avoided Schoenberg, Schaeffer, Cage, Stockhausen, Xenakis and Boulez (just >the big ones). I'd already have to stretch pretty far to believe that >such an umbrella has been ducked under, but okay, I'll try it. However, >there is no doubt in my mind that their contributions to the study of >sound and the body of knowledge they created put us squarely where we are >today. The statistical analysis of sound leads to the idea of sampling, >modular synthesis (from IRCAM and elsewhere), stochastic composition, I >can't think of one area that the academic forefathers didn't touch. The >only difference and distance between "us" and them is that the tools are >now readily available and widespread, and every other home has a machine >powerful enough to harness those tools. The tools came pretty directly >from the academic camps, though. Try to name one that didn't. The only >one I can think of was FM synthesis (a commercial venture and patent, I >believe). > >Or try asking yourself, what kind of music would Autechre be playing right >now without Max/MSP (via IRCAM) and the Nord Modular? It's actually quite >amazing that we have such the variety we have in the IDM "genre", >considering how the tools are nearly exactly the same. Kind of like >painting, I guess. > >Well, I'm not exactly sure what tangent I've gotten on to at this >point...there isn't anything wrong with recognizing influence, as long as >you can move past it. Perhaps saying "it isn't them" helps certain people >move along and create without anxiety. Then again, how important is the >creator(s) of the guitar, or the piano or computer to the creation of the >music? Sure you can make a solid arguement for the aformentioned for >their contributions to the technology of music as well as their >compositions, but we usually don't praise that nearly as much. How >important are the tools? Would we even have IDM without them? > >_________________________ >Christopher Sorg >Multimedia Artist/Teacher >http://csorg.cjb.net >csorg@enteract.com

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From: Christopher Sorg <csorg@enteract.com>

quoted 5 lines Perhaps, and I emphasize, *perhaps* no composers mentioned on this list

> Perhaps, and I emphasize, *perhaps* no composers mentioned on this list > have listened to any serialist or minimalist composers (the recent Steve > Reich remix album already disputes your claim) and have stealthfully > avoided Schoenberg, Schaeffer, Cage, Stockhausen, Xenakis and Boulez (just > the big ones).

I've stealthily avoided all the above, though I like Steve Reich. I wish there were more techno like 'music for xx musicians' (I'm not sure what you call that polyrhythmic stuff with layers building up to enormous complexity, something like an Ae track in reverse :-) ).

quoted 2 lines one I can think of was FM synthesis (a commercial venture and patent, I

> one I can think of was FM synthesis (a commercial venture and patent, I > believe).

That was invented by John Chowning, who was at UC Berkely at the time I think. He did indeed patent it and license it to Yamaha, but as far as I recall he was a professor of acoustics or music at the time (late 60s). Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 6 lines I've stealthily avoided all the above, though I like Steve Reich. I wish

>I've stealthily avoided all the above, though I like Steve Reich. I wish >there were more techno like 'music for xx musicians' (I'm not sure what > >you >call that polyrhythmic stuff with layers building up to enormous > >complexity, >something like an Ae track in reverse :-) ).

Though I was listening to Ae before i picked up "Music for 18 Musicians," i almost immediately recognized the similiarity between Reich's piece and say a track like "Vletrmx21" by Ae. The building layers, the emerging patterns. I've listened to Penderecki, Cage, and Ligeti and enjoy all of them...a very strange kind of noise music/ambience by way of traditional instruments. worth checking out simply for fun. also see Liget's "Poeme Symphonique for 100 Metronomes" by Ligeti. Just 100 metronomes, at different speeds, clicking down till there are none. strangely relaxing. luke _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

once read that coldcut did a remix of steve reich - if thats considered classical or contemporary - dont know & thought i read an interview with matt black once where he referred to john cage - but then coldcut as cut up artists who probably inspired many warp/idm artists dont get talked about here as much as autechre & squarepusher.... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines once read that coldcut did a remix of steve reich - if thats considered

> once read that coldcut did a remix of steve reich - if thats considered > classical or contemporary - dont know & thought > i read an interview with matt black once where he referred to > john cage

I tried remixing 4'33" but it wasn't as groovy as the original. Perhaps I should have gone back to the multitrack version :-) Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

<<Peter and me between us listen to Parmiagiani, LOTS of Stockhausen, Schaffer,Dockstader, one or two John Cage pieces, *Yoko ONO*, Joe Meek,Raymond Scott and Louis and Bebe Barron.....>> Since y'all were just talking about video game music, I should put in at this point that the double disc compilation (+booklet) of Raymond Scott's works--"Manhattan Research Inc"--has lots of *old* school synthesizer ditties that range from voice clips to bizarre commercial jingles... It's almost like Bodenstandig 2000/Lektrogirl forty years ago. And if you thought TV ads commandeering underground electronic music is anything new, this has some TV ad sound bytes from back in the 1960s that are weird synthesizer fuckery along with your classic 50s-style prim male announcer talking about how every good space man and space woman eats Hostess' Twinkies... It's not the least bit academic (a la Stockhausen et al)-- but it's a fun little snatch of another side of electronic music's earlier days. Fun little snatch. I appreciate it as an electro/pop fan. Oh, and Yoko Ono is of course necessary for all you into the whole guttural screeching genre (GSDM). And remember: (Similarity V Appreciation) != Influence _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 03:57 PM 7/7/01 +0000, you wrote:

quoted 1 line And remember: (Similarity V Appreciation) != Influence

>And remember: (Similarity V Appreciation) != Influence

I don't think that's completely true. If you appreciate a piece of music, you most likely have and will continue to listen to it. Anything that you listen to will influence you on some level. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Luke C wrote:

quoted 5 lines How much do you think the avant garde composers of the classical world have

> > How much do you think the avant garde composers of the classical world have > influenced the electronic musicians of today? Can you hear Stockhausen and > Reich in Aphex Twin's work? How about the infamous Penderecki and his violin > noise assaults? John Cage and his 4min33sec composition (or lack thereof).

I frequently play Penderecki's Threnody for Hiroshima in DJ sets, as well as a lot of things from the academic/electroacoustic scene. Recently I've been doing a lot of edits from Stanford composer Mark Applebaum's digital remix CD, The Janus Remixes (Innova), digital cutups of his orchestral music. Not to mention an interview with John Cage wherein he is reading preset answers from cards -- no matter what question is asked, he just picks a card randomly and reads out the answer. Fun. John np: PiL, Memories, from Metal Box -- John von Seggern DJ/producer Digital Cutup Lounge Hong Kong http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com

EggyToast wrote:

quoted 13 lines (see post below)

> (see post below) > > As I said later in my post with "Many of the mentioned artists have done > good things for allowing music that we enjoy to exist, but not directly," I > meant that these artists are definitely responsible for allowing music such > as autechre, et al to be produced. Their work in academic and other fields > is astonishing, but I don't think they have much direct influence in the > majority of IDM. > > What I mean by that, is I don't think autechre listened to any of them. I > doubt many electronic musicians we discuss on the list spent any time > listening to any of this body of classical work, at least not until they > were much further into producing electronic music.

But how can you assume that without asking them? Just because you never listened to Stockhausen when you were 16 doesn't mean Autechre didn't...I remember first hearing Kontakte when I was about 20, sitting in my dorm room with the lights switched off and listening to these amazingly strange dive bombing noises and electronic explosions panning across the room, definitely left a permanent impression on me.

quoted 4 lines Obviously, we'd have to ask the artists, but that's what I'm on

> Obviously, we'd have to ask the artists, but that's what I'm on > about. When I started playing around with production, I hadn't listened to > any "avant garde" classical work, and from the artists I've spoken to, > neither had they. To me, that's not much influence.

To me, that's an overgeneralization. John -- John von Seggern DJ/producer Digital Cutup Lounge Hong Kong http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com

quoted 13 lines with all the commotion i hear surrounding the classical composer

>with all the commotion i hear surrounding the classical composer >Stockhausen, i thought i'd bring this subject up. > >How much do you think the avant garde composers of the classical >world have influenced the electronic musicians of today? Can you >hear Stockhausen and Reich in Aphex Twin's work? How about the >infamous Penderecki and his violin noise assaults? John Cage and his >4min33sec composition (or lack thereof). > >Is the connection there? > >all the best, >Luke

john Balance from COIL just recovering..quickly from falling ...quickly from a window from a window.Defenastration for the masses. Peter and me between us listen to Parmiagiani, LOTS of Stockhausen, Schaffer,Dockstader, one or two John Cage pieces, *Yoko ONO*, Joe Meek,Raymond Scott and Louis and Bebe Barron.....we love a hyper-inventive maverick and LaMonte Young.Thighpaulsandra loves Messian and Boulez amongst others.Quite eclectic.Ossian loves Francois Bayle. What would Joe Meek have produced today with IRCAM technology? Balance --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines john Balance from COIL just recovering..quickly from falling

> john Balance from COIL just recovering..quickly from falling > ....quickly from a window from a window.Defenastration for the masses.

watch out for windows - can be tricky things - light catches you the wrong way from one - never know what'll happen... my question: Louis and Bebe - I've long had their Forbidden Planet soundtrack - did they do anything else that reached vinyl/cd/whatever? I love the story of Miles Davis driving round New York in '72 in his yellow Ferrari alternately blasting out Stockhausen and James Brown. 'On The Corner' in part the result. what a result. All the best, Colin. _____________________________ ... and life is a song sung low and cool to rouse the gentle spirit Jeff Noon

quoted 11 lines Peter and me between us listen to Parmiagiani, LOTS of Stockhausen,

> > Peter and me between us listen to Parmiagiani, LOTS of Stockhausen, > Schaffer,Dockstader, one or two John Cage pieces, *Yoko ONO*, Joe > Meek,Raymond Scott and Louis and Bebe Barron.....we love a > hyper-inventive maverick and LaMonte Young.Thighpaulsandra loves > Messian and Boulez amongst others.Quite eclectic.Ossian loves > Francois Bayle. What would Joe Meek have produced today with IRCAM > technology? > > > Balance

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Beware- when most people use the name 'Stockhausen' to describe another artist, they usually have never heard any of his music. His name has become such an anachronism that it's liberally used all over the place to describe almost any type of music that has discord and random noise ('Cage' is another name that gets bandied about like this). Certainly some artists have definitely been influenced by his work but I wish that more people would actually listen to his compositions before they throw his name around. For Stocky, if you haven't heard anything before, please get a hold of "Gesang Der Junglinge," "Kontakte," "Etude" and "Mantra." I'd suggest that many artists also pick up on Stocky's compositional ideas as much as his music itself. The same applies to Cage in spades, IMHO. I'd recommended these books: Cage's "Silence" and "Stockhausen on Music." Best, Jason Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 02:22 AM 7/9/2001 +0000, Kevin Ryan @ wrote:

quoted 3 lines influence. Appreciation != influence. I can appreciate Mozart and

>influence. Appreciation != influence. I can appreciate Mozart and >produce minimal techno, and I think it would be misleading to conclude >Mozart has been an influence on my minimal techno.

Yeah, but the bottom line is that name-dropping is cooler than not name-dropping, especially in interviews and such. So next time someone asks you for your influences, publicly, be sure to at least mention Stockhausen or some obscure experimentalist to get the hip intellectual points. It's most likely that some artists survive entirely on hip intellectul points. - wells oliver || wells@submute.net "I wouldn't know because I don't read, but I'll tell you one thing for sure: I wouldn't trust no words written down on no piece of paper especially from no Dickinson out in the town of Machine. You're just as likely to find your own grave." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Sun, 8 Jul 2001, wells wrote:

quoted 5 lines At 02:22 AM 7/9/2001 +0000, Kevin Ryan @ wrote:

> At 02:22 AM 7/9/2001 +0000, Kevin Ryan @ wrote: > >influence. Appreciation != influence. I can appreciate Mozart and > >produce minimal techno, and I think it would be misleading to conclude > >Mozart has been an influence on my minimal techno. >

I don't know. Mozart was all about economy of means. The first movement of 'Eine Kleine Nachtmusik' has about 2 measures of thematic material that he runs through every sort of inversion, modulation, reversal, etc. It used to drive me nuts to play in orchestra because there was so little there, and you don't get the gestalt when you're sitting on stage. We're lucky Mozart wasn't around for arpeggiators and drum machines because he'd have turned out 10 times as much material. To say that Mozart was techno is kind of absurd, but he had his techno moments. The rhythmic stiffness of most Mozart definitely foreshadows stuff like Kraftwerk and Neu. Kraftwerk were around for the beginning of machines that can play perfectally mechanical rhythms. Mozart tried to make musicians into machines to reproduce his musical mechanisms.

quoted 3 lines Yeah, but the bottom line is that name-dropping is cooler than not

> Yeah, but the bottom line is that name-dropping is cooler than not > name-dropping, especially in interviews and such. >

It's fun to play that game. Did you know I've spoken on the phone with Rich Devine's Mama?

quoted 4 lines So next time someone asks you for your influences, publicly, be sure to at

> So next time someone asks you for your influences, publicly, be sure to at > least mention Stockhausen or some obscure experimentalist to get the hip > intellectual points. >

You have to think about the converse as well. How many people namecheck Abba and the Carpenters? I'm a huge Jackie Gleason fan too. And the Harmonicats? They were WAY fucking techno.

quoted 2 lines It's most likely that some artists survive entirely on hip intellectul points.

> It's most likely that some artists survive entirely on hip intellectul points. >

You know Wells, I can always count on you to say the stupidest fucking thing you can at any given point. And I mean that as a compliment. Making music is hard work, and the pay is lousy. The only reason anyone keeps doing it long enough to get to the point of being interviewed and quoted is because they do music as a compulsion -- it's a process that feeds their souls. Someday it may, in some way, pay off. Or maybe not. Part and parcel of being consumed by music is that you may actually listen to stuff that regular people can't stand and take some enjoyment and guidance from it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Jesus, dude. Calm down. My point was not to broadly insult every music-making individual that's come down the pike, as sweeping generalizations are far, far below me. I was merely pointing out that there's far too much name-dropping in music journalism on the behalf of musicians. Witness, if you will: Blink 182: So we were listening to a lot of Miles Davis, you know, his earlier stuff, and then our manager brought in some Can, I'd never heard that before; you can really hear the influence on this record. Sheesh. Original Message: ----------------- From: Kent williams kent@avalon.net Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 09:15:33 -0500 (CDT) To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] Re: the stockhausen effect You know Wells, I can always count on you to say the stupidest fucking thing you can at any given point. And I mean that as a compliment. Making music is hard work, and the pay is lousy. The only reason anyone keeps doing it long enough to get to the point of being interviewed and quoted is because they do music as a compulsion -- it's a process that feeds their souls. Someday it may, in some way, pay off. Or maybe not. Part and parcel of being consumed by music is that you may actually listen to stuff that regular people can't stand and take some enjoyment and guidance from it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail2Web - Check your email from the web at http://www.mail2web.com/ . --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

From: Kevin Ryan @ <i__oo__@hotmail.com>

quoted 1 line Also beware- If accessibility means anything to you at all, you'll hate

> Also beware- If accessibility means anything to you at all, you'll hate

all

quoted 3 lines that crap. If you're one of the elite few who actually enjoy listening to

> that crap. If you're one of the elite few who actually enjoy listening to > random electronic noises with no kind of continuity--as in most musique > concrete--then congratulations, and more power to you.

I too dislike this sort of thing...when I want to hear random noises I can just play with my gear. On the other hand, I can think of many tracks where some incongruous clamour is dropped in at a crucial point. It's something I like a great deal in electronic music, and I'm sure everyone here can think of some track the like where everything stops to make room for some overwhelming weird noise. Given the relative scarcity of this trick in rock and pop, I suppose we ought to give credit to artists like Stockhausen for this sort of thing. BTW does anyone have opinions on Stock, Hausen & Walkman? I first came across the name in an Autechre interview years ago but I thought that it was a joke reply to the question. However I've noticed them mentioned in Wire a few times lately so I am curious to know what they sound like, especially since Ae said they would like to be remixed by them. Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 02:22:37 -0000

>Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 02:22:37 -0000 >To: idm@hyperreal.org >From: "Kevin Ryan @" <i__oo__@hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [idm] Re: the stockhausen effect >Message-ID: <F189QcqnWwAeRaNgEpT00000bec@hotmail.com>

quoted 2 lines <<Beware- when most people use the name 'Stockhausen' to describe another

><<Beware- when most people use the name 'Stockhausen' to describe another >artist, they usually have never heard any of his music. His name has

become

quoted 1 line such an anachronism that it's liberally used all over the place to describe

>such an anachronism that it's liberally used all over the place to describe

quoted 3 lines almost any type of music that has discord and random noise ('Cage' is

>almost any type of music that has discord and random noise ('Cage' is >another name that gets bandied about like >this).>>

quoted 1 line Also beware- If accessibility means anything to you at all, you'll hate all

>Also beware- If accessibility means anything to you at all, you'll hate all

quoted 5 lines that crap. If you're one of the elite few who actually enjoy listening to

>that crap. If you're one of the elite few who actually enjoy listening to >random electronic noises with no kind of continuity--as in most musique >concrete--then congratulations, and more power to you. I'm not in that >vgroup, and most of us aren't. I've blown a lot of dough on Cage, >Stockhausen, Varese, and similar folks and I can't get through five minutes

quoted 1 line of any of those pieces.

>of any of those pieces.

It's one thing to spend time trying to come to terms with such work, and another to dismiss it wholesale (I note that you don't say you've blown a lot of time listening to it...just spent a lot of money. In fact you admit you can't "get through five minutes," so perhaps you've never listened further?). Ok, I'm being a little snide, but dismissing it all as "crap" just smacks of know-nothingness. Have you ever read Cage? Are you really so cynical? And another thing... is anyone else sick of the stomach-clutchingly-anxious bashings of "elites" and "elitism" on IDM lately? Jesus, these people sound like Rush fucking Limbaugh, trashing the NorthEastern intellectual elites. Just because you don't like/get/care about a given aesthetic object, one that has an established tradition and an intellectual framework around it (and yes, very often its own surfeit of hype), doesn't mean that any of its fans are particularly bothered by your uninterest. So you really don't need to slam them with the charge of "elitism."

quoted 3 lines I love IDM. I love ambient. I love classical (up

>I love IDM. I love ambient. I love classical (up >through c. Impressionism anyway). But avant garde art music just seems to >suck all the life and love out of music. Which perhaps is the whole point,

quoted 2 lines but it's nothing you can't get listening to your air conditioner or your

>but it's nothing you can't get listening to your air conditioner or your >toilet or your microwave. I think it's much more difficult and respectable

quoted 2 lines to write traditional, accessible music than it is to fuck around with some

>to write traditional, accessible music than it is to fuck around with some >plugs and microphones for awhile.

See, here you've bought into the very thing you dismiss. You're terrified of Cage et al because it's "difficult," but you have to defend the status of what you like and thus deem it even "more difficult," in the interest of retaining -- your word -- respectability. Aesthetically I see almost nothing in

quoted 2 lines common between IDM and modern art music, but if IDM artists like Autechre

>common between IDM and modern art music, but if IDM artists like Autechre >claim Stockhausen as an influence, then I can't argue with that. Still the

quoted 3 lines existence of beats alone in most IDM distances it worlds away from art

>existence of beats alone in most IDM distances it worlds away from art >music-- IDM is a child of beats, be they techno beats or hip hop beats or >Krautrock-- and most of it (some of the purer glitch might be an exception)

quoted 6 lines has practically nothing in common with those early electronic classical

>has practically nothing in common with those early electronic classical >composers, except that both are electronic. I don't see the connection >between Reich and minimal techno either, except maybe that both can be >really repetitive at times, but that certainly doesn't show influence. I >mean, lots of Indian (at least South Indian) and African musics employ >percussive minimalism and polyrhythms, but it would be quite silly to claim

quoted 1 line they're anywhere near Steve Reich aesthetically.

>they're anywhere near Steve Reich aesthetically.

Actually, Steve Reich studied African drumming extensively, so in this case there is a pretty direct link. Cheers, Philip

From: Kent williams <kent@avalon.net>

quoted 6 lines I don't know. Mozart was all about economy of means. The first movement

> I don't know. Mozart was all about economy of means. The first movement > of 'Eine Kleine Nachtmusik' has about 2 measures of thematic material > that he runs through every sort of inversion, modulation, reversal, etc. > It used to drive me nuts to play in orchestra because there was so little > there, and you don't get the gestalt when you're sitting on stage. > We're lucky Mozart wasn't around for arpeggiators and drum machines

because

quoted 1 line he'd have turned out 10 times as much material.

> he'd have turned out 10 times as much material.

Yeah, but then you wouldn't have had to play it, eh :-)

quoted 6 lines Making music is hard work, and the pay is lousy. The only reason anyone

> Making music is hard work, and the pay is lousy. The only reason anyone > keeps doing it long enough to get to the point of being interviewed and > quoted is because they do music as a compulsion -- it's a process that > feeds their souls. Someday it may, in some way, pay off. Or maybe not. > Part and parcel of being consumed by music is that you may actually listen > to stuff that regular people can't stand and take some enjoyment and

guidance

quoted 1 line from it.

> from it.

Ideally this is true. I'm a bit peeved at the moment because the Irish airwaves are flooded with a techno version of Karl Orff's 'O fortuna' (the music used in the Old Spice surf ad)...some enterprising young buck simply put a 4-4 kick/hat combination under it, and now he is being photographed for interviews in front of 48-track SSL consoles, hailed as an innovator, blah blah...vomit. OK, in 6 months everyone will have forgotten about it, but I admit it gets up my nose a bit. Not least because I did the same thing at home a year ago and wiped the tape in embarrassment the next day :-) What bugs me most though is that this current hit involved no more programming than making sure the kick drum started in time with the classical recording. The Orff recording just plays stright through from start to finish without an edit in sight, and the kick and hat sounds could have come from just about any cheap keyboard made in the last decade. No wonder so many people dismiss techno as 'just a beat going round and round'. Mind you, while I would love to have got the money and gigs the guy is making off this hit, I'd have to wear a paper bag on my head and tape my mouth shut in order to play along with the resultant hype. Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

<<Are you really so cynical?>> A thousand people inhabit my body, and none of them can agree on John Cage. Still I think I can safely say I like the way Cage talks about music, but I can't stand his music. I've really vacillated about him over the years, and you happened to catch me in one of my militant anti-art moods. Just for shits, though, here's something I wrote about Cage to another mailing list a couple years ago: -aesthetic (cf. John Cage): realizing -that music isn't a perfect form that exists in an -ideal vacuum: music consists of not only the -intentional sounds on the score/recording but also -the random "nonintentional" sounds in the background, -created by the audience, or album, or atmosphere, -etc. Unlike most music theory, studying John Cage -has actively changed how I listen to recorded music. -I learned to appreciate the pops and buzzs of vinyl -and glass (in 78s) not as a defect of the medium but -as a warmth belonging to (not alienating) the music. -If I'm listening to ambient and a garbage truck drives -by, it's not a distraction, but an unexpected twist in -the music. If this sounds facile and cheesy that's -because it is, but I So my outlook seesaws like that, and I've learnt to spell "buzzes" correctly...but it's so hard to talk about these things. My point in my last email, which was a bit of a troll I suppose (perhaps I provoke only because I like to be provoked), was that Cage/Stocky/et al are not for most people. I would love to love all that crap ("crap" used here as a colloquialism for "stuff"), and I've tried, but I don't. In retrospect, I bought their music simply because I thought it would be cool to have in my collection (like the Gescom MD and dozens of other discs I never listen to). I'm sure lots of people on this list do the same thing all the time--there's probably thousands of copies of Confield wasting away in people's collections after one or two fruitless listens--and I'm merely trying to be candid about it. <<these people sound like Rush fucking Limbaugh, trashing the NorthEastern intellectual elites.>> There was a great ad for Rush F. Limbaugh on the side of a bus here recently which had a picture of him with an inscription to the effect of "Rush Moved to the Left!" and then a picture of a radio dial showing the new, lower AM frequency that he changed to. Pretty damned keen. But seriously, I think elite-bashing, however superficial (and ironic, in my case), is like masturbation: it's a healthy habit. <<any of its fans are particularly bothered by your uninterest. So you really don't need to slam them with the charge of "elitism.">> I'm not particularly bothered by their interest, either, but I apologize for letting a buzz-word like that slip out. Scratch the adjective "elite" in my last post and replace it with "special." But please-- I wasn't denigrating people who like musique concrete. I just question how many of them are sincere. Modern composers make great name-dropping fodder, and--I can only speak for myself--I've certainly used them for that end in my day, and I regret it. <<Actually, Steve Reich studied African drumming extensively, so in this case there is a pretty direct link.>> Touche. (I should've known--what avant gardist worth his or her salt hasn't paid some attention to indigenous drumming and ethnic music since the likes of Stravinsky and Bartok. [Although you slightly miss my point, but only quibbles there.] Now Bartok--there's a composer I've spent many many hours coming to grips with, and quite successfully, but with the electronic composers--I just can't find anything there to appreciate. The flaw must belong to me.) Sorry if I pushed any buttons, I'm just trying to keep the dialectic flowing here, and I can't get enough of hearing myself think out loud :) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 9 lines <<these people sound like Rush fucking Limbaugh, trashing the NorthEastern

><<these people sound like Rush fucking Limbaugh, trashing the NorthEastern >intellectual elites.>> > >There was a great ad for Rush F. Limbaugh on the side of a bus here >recently which had a picture of him with an inscription to the effect of >"Rush Moved to the Left!" and then a picture of a radio dial showing the >new, lower AM frequency that he changed to. Pretty damned keen. But >seriously, I think elite-bashing, however superficial (and ironic, in my >case), is like masturbation: it's a healthy habit.

But, of course, doing it too much can lead to an unhealthy addiction (and hairy palms)

quoted 10 lines <<any of its fans are particularly bothered by your uninterest. So you

><<any of its fans are particularly bothered by your uninterest. So you >really don't need to slam them with the charge of "elitism.">> > >I'm not particularly bothered by their interest, either, but I apologize >for letting a buzz-word like that slip out. Scratch the adjective "elite" >in my last post and replace it with "special." But please-- I wasn't >denigrating people who like musique concrete. I just question how many of >them are sincere. Modern composers make great name-dropping fodder, >and--I can only speak for myself--I've certainly used them for that end in >my day, and I regret it.

yeah. buncha phoneys. There's a person I met a couple months ago who's entire conversation essentially consists of namedropping people. She's hardly unique - I'm sure most everyone on this list has met someone similar. Essentially, a conversation will start with "oh hey, have you heard of [insert x obscure yet famous musician or artist or author]?", or said person will respond eventually with "yeah, that's like [insert x obscure yet famous musician or artist or author]." It doesn't add an opinion to the conversation, it simply shows off that you know a person that other people might know. Examples in this person's repertoire are "tom waits, laurie anderson, kafka" and some old australian rocker who's name is nick something. Here, i'm going to be a phoney (but to prove a point, not to simply say "ooh i know stuff" (hopefully)) - The thing about Cage is that it really doesn't matter whether you listen to his music - it's on recorded format mainly because it can be, at least in my opinion. To me, they're more like examples of what he's writing about. If he was "performing" them, they'd all sound totally different each time, which is an element that just isn't present in a recorded format. I would have to agree with the argument that much of the "popular" abstract electronic music stuff isn't really listenable stuff. I think it's more important to understand what the artists were trying to do rather than what they have recorded. So I'm going full circle to the beginning of this thread, saying that "the music isn't an influence on modern electronic music - the ideas from those composers are" cheers, /derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- now on the interweb --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I'm with Philip Sherburne in his response. Also - Cage made many different forms of music - I've just gone to my cds and realised I'm missing a couple - damn! Mesosistics is amazing, Imaginary Landscapes, and the earlier works for prepared piano and voice (e.g. She Is Asleep, A Room etc.) Gorgeous. I'll also repost a previous mail which came back to me with that error message - apologies if this already reached the list. -------------------------------------- There was quite an amusing article in The Wire some years ago where contemporary electronica artists were invited to comment on Stockhausen's work (mostly favourable) and then Stockhausen was played some of their work and he was very critical and dismissive. Personally, I can't imagine today's electronica without Lygeti, Stockhausen, Reich, Cage, Glass and co. That's not to say there haven't been many other influences as well of course. If you're interested and haven't already heard of it I'd recommend the 3cd sampler 'Ohm: the early gurus of electronic music 1948-1980' which contains works by many of the aforementioned as well as Varese, Riley, Xenakis, LaMonte Young, Oliveros, etc. -------------------------------------- All the best, Colin. _____________________________ ... and life is a song sung low and cool to rouse the gentle spirit Jeff Noon --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org