IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 1 line There have been some interesting points in this thread, but it seems simple

>There have been some interesting points in this thread, but it seems simple

enough

quoted 1 line to me...when you stop looking for new stuff, you stop growing. And, for me,

>to me...when you stop looking for new stuff, you stop growing. And, for me,

this

quoted 1 line is what happened to my parents. That's a path I'm not taking.

>is what happened to my parents. That's a path I'm not taking.

This is a good point. But, I believe that the new developments that occur in each genre, the period of time when a lot of creative people are involved with the genre, doing their best work, is a small fraction of the genre's 'lifespan.' look at rock, or punk. there was a time when both of those types of music were the most cutting edge; if you were a talented young un in those times and wanted to get involved with music, you would focus yourself towards what impressed you most, which was one of those. hence, for awhile anyway, those genres carried most of the young talent. maybe right now electronic/hip hop is holding that place in the us/europe. but probably not for long. you say 'when you stop looking for new stuff, you stop growing.' and that is exactly what is beginning to happen to 'idm' as a genre. two, three, years ago it wasn't simple to think of a generic idm track, the definition was loose. now, if you want to hear a generic idm track, you can just jump on mp3.com. a lot of new material has made it harder for artists to think outside the lines, and the ones that do just don't get much attention anyway. so, anyone have contact info for focus, btw? or email for worm interface? thanks if new yorkers get the chance to see liminal live anytime soon, don't pass it up; saw them last week at tonic and it was excellent. live drummer, nice. noah --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Thats a good point Noah, and I was thinking that yesturday as I was doing my thing, thinking of how CiM message almost let me down(so to speak)... NOW, here is my thing: Ok, forget Stasis, Forget Nuron(not literally but)....We cant beg ANYONE....What is needed: Any new or upcoming artist to continue to represent the Lush line of Detroit styled Techno.....in fact, and heres a message for Steve Pickton, CiM, Lee N., or anyone else.......Bend the Genre, Break it, Create a New one....if you are that talented(and i am not denying your ability), then show and prove!.....Do U not think its needed? The staying the same arguement is very weak, IMO, DONT BLOW WITH THE WIND....like some is my advice....but to an extent I agree, lets go ahead with the music......its 2000 and if there is so much good music out there then where is it?.... Lastly, it terms of money....I refuse to believe that B12, Paul and Steve made the music they did for Money...(sure its some where in the back of their minds to make money but)......If anyone knows anything about things with substance(any object thats a step above the rest), it doesnt attract a lot of CASH, it doesnt attract a LARGE following, its not COMMERCIAL & not Bandwagon-ish Music......ITS THE QUALITY, ITS THE QUALITY that makes it shine. If they didnt know that, then they learned a valuable lesson in life! 2 much Said! Hk!(sorry Tek-head, that ended it!) -----Original Message----- From: Noah Sasso To: idm@hyperreal.org Sent: 3/13/00 1:44 PM Subject: (idm) Re The Good Old Days

quoted 1 line There have been some interesting points in this thread, but it seems

>There have been some interesting points in this thread, but it seems

simple enough

quoted 1 line to me...when you stop looking for new stuff, you stop growing. And, for

>to me...when you stop looking for new stuff, you stop growing. And, for

me, this

quoted 1 line is what happened to my parents. That's a path I'm not taking.

>is what happened to my parents. That's a path I'm not taking.

This is a good point. But, I believe that the new developments that occur in each genre, the period of time when a lot of creative people are involved with the genre, doing their best work, is a small fraction of the genre's 'lifespan.' look at rock, or punk. there was a time when both of those types of music were the most cutting edge; if you were a talented young un in those times and wanted to get involved with music, you would focus yourself towards what impressed you most, which was one of those. hence, for awhile anyway, those genres carried most of the young talent. maybe right now electronic/hip hop is holding that place in the us/europe. but probably not for long. you say 'when you stop looking for new stuff, you stop growing.' and that is exactly what is beginning to happen to 'idm' as a genre. two, three, years ago it wasn't simple to think of a generic idm track, the definition was loose. now, if you want to hear a generic idm track, you can just jump on mp3.com. a lot of new material has made it harder for artists to think outside the lines, and the ones that do just don't get much attention anyway. so, anyone have contact info for focus, btw? or email for worm interface? thanks if new yorkers get the chance to see liminal live anytime soon, don't pass it up; saw them last week at tonic and it was excellent. live drummer, nice. noah --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines From: Kelley Hackett <khackett@aba.iupui.edu>

>From: Kelley Hackett <khackett@aba.iupui.edu> >Subject: RE: (idm) Re The Good Old Days > >Lastly, it terms of money....I refuse to believe that B12, Paul and Steve >made the music they did for Money...

Of course they didn't - I never said they did. I'm saying that to persuade these artists that someone should release either unreleased older tracks of theirs or do re-issues, money is going to be one way to sweeten the argument about releasing music they have moved on from. I have tracks I wrote in 1991 on tape which I remember loving at the time. Listen back to them now and they're appalling. If someone came up to me and said "I want to put that out", I'd say no. If someone came up to me and said "Heres ?500,000 - I want to put that out", I might want to think about it first. Unless they want to put out the hardcore version of the "Toobin'" title music I did. I couldn't inflict that on anyone. || [CiM] || cim@headspacerecordings.co.uk || - ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Please won't you people shut up????? Were most of you even around for the so called good ol days????????????????????????? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 15-3-00 +0000 10:17, you wrote:

quoted 2 lines Please won't you people shut up????? Were most of you even around

> Please won't you people shut up????? Were most of you even around > for the so called good ol days?????????????????????????

and who is mr uncutvein? guess i was. and for simon the very same.. subscribed since 1994. when people still used to be friendly on this list and you? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I understand CiM. Peace! Hk! -----Original Message----- From: Simon Walley [mailto:cim_@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 4:43 AM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (idm) Re The Good Old Days

quoted 5 lines From: Kelley Hackett <khackett@aba.iupui.edu>

>From: Kelley Hackett <khackett@aba.iupui.edu> >Subject: RE: (idm) Re The Good Old Days > >Lastly, it terms of money....I refuse to believe that B12, Paul and Steve >made the music they did for Money...

Of course they didn't - I never said they did. I'm saying that to persuade these artists that someone should release either unreleased older tracks of theirs or do re-issues, money is going to be one way to sweeten the argument about releasing music they have moved on from. I have tracks I wrote in 1991 on tape which I remember loving at the time. Listen back to them now and they're appalling. If someone came up to me and said "I want to put that out", I'd say no. If someone came up to me and said "Heres £500,000 - I want to put that out", I might want to think about it first. Unless they want to put out the hardcore version of the "Toobin'" title music I did. I couldn't inflict that on anyone. || [CiM] || cim@headspacerecordings.co.uk || - ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

"rob salls"

quoted 1 line Please won't you people shut up????? Were most of you even around for

>Please won't you people shut up????? Were most of you even around for

the so called good ol days????????????????????????? I joined IDM about three months after it started (end of 93). You? The music we're talking about now that seems to piss you off, used to be a big part of the list. So if you can call the 'good old days' when IDM was actually good, then yeah, I was there. Thanks for bringing something positive to the discussion. || [CiM] || cim@headspacerecordings.co.uk || - ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

dude, relax...its not that big of a deal....you aint gotta get all freaky man --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 11 lines "rob salls"

> "rob salls" > >Please won't you people shut up????? Were most of you even around for > the so called good ol days????????????????????????? > > I joined IDM about three months after it started (end of 93). You? > > The music we're talking about now that seems to piss you off, used to be a > big part of the list. > > So if you can call the 'good old days' when IDM was actually good, then > yeah, I was there.

well, are to l33+ or what? idm can't possibly be good NOW, 'cause we aren't the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre. i'm sorry i'm not cool, simon walley. thanks for bringing something elitist to the discussion. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

on 3/15/00 7:10 PM, Colin King-Bailey wrote:

quoted 5 lines "rob salls"

>> "rob salls" >>> Please won't you people shut up????? Were most of you even around for >> the so called good ol days????????????????????????? >> >> I joined IDM about three months after it started (end of 93). You?

OH oh oh! me too! I've been on and off this list at least as long as Simon (well, maybe a bit less *cough*). And imho, there's never been a golden age on the IDM list. Play lists and for sale lists are always washing ahore, and the signal to noise ratio has always flowed like the tides, It's always been there, just like mother ocean ready to drown you like the pathetic trainspotter you are. I just sit around and fish these waters for the occasional tasty nugget... <dream sequence and old man's voice> I remember back in the day, when bbehelen@hyperreal.com (or was it brian@?) and g.l.eden@newcastle were around, Teep was just a newbie to the list and I was there! Now where'd that nice young fellah Fluid get too? Drexel seem'd ta gobble 'im up! </dream sequence and old man's voice>

quoted 9 lines The music we're talking about now that seems to piss you off, used to be a

>> The music we're talking about now that seems to piss you off, used to be a >> big part of the list. >> >> So if you can call the 'good old days' when IDM was actually good, then >> yeah, I was there. > > well, are to l33+ or what? idm can't possibly be good NOW, 'cause we aren't > the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre. i'm sorry i'm not > cool, simon walley. thanks for bringing something elitist to the discussion.

*cough* IDM, don't ever change you hideous beast. Circumflex (or, back in the day, dan.....) ObIDM: Dark Side of the Moog VI is almost a perfect IDM record. Do yourself a favor and check it out. np: DSOTM6 Standard IDM thread lamentation: 'let this thread die now before we get into another vinyl vs. cd vs. mp3 debate vs. gonzi's namedropping tendencies debate' heh --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line Standard IDM thread lamentation: 'let this thread die now before we get

>Standard IDM thread lamentation: 'let this thread die now before we get

into

quoted 2 lines another vinyl vs. cd vs. mp3 debate vs. gonzi's namedropping tendencies

>another vinyl vs. cd vs. mp3 debate vs. gonzi's namedropping tendencies >debate'

you son of a bitch, how do i namedrop? i godamn say richard devine turned me on to bisk and thats namedropping? i said that in the hope that more people would check out an artist who i think is unerappreciated if they knew that devine liked him. so now i am a name dropper? how dare you. jesus. hey this really has nothing to do with idm but did you know in fight club, when tyler tells jack he wouldnt believe the shit that comes out of marla's mouth when they are doin it and marla says "i havent been fucked like that since gradeschool"? she was originally supposed to say "I want to have your abortion." hehahahehehahha love, gonzi. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Gonzi 'Fresh' Merchan wrote: you son of a bitch, how do i namedrop? i godamn say richard devine turned me on to bisk and thats namedropping? yes it is. Bryan --------------------------------- Bryan Bickel bbickel@cs.wayne.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines you son of a bitch, how do i namedrop? i godamn say richard devine turned me

> you son of a bitch, how do i namedrop? i godamn say richard devine turned me > on to bisk and thats namedropping? > >yes it is.

choose that or "bisk sounds like a cross between freeform and komet." we're waging a losing battle against atrophied imaginations and "SUPERSTAR!" -- http://www.synthesizer.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

strange or funny-haha? :__}||||| ----- Original Message ----- From: bryan bickel <bbickel@cs.wayne.edu> To: I despise Merzbow <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 8:08 PM Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days

quoted 4 lines On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Gonzi 'Fresh' Merchan wrote:

> > On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Gonzi 'Fresh' Merchan wrote: > > you son of a bitch, how do i namedrop? i godamn say richard devine turned

me

quoted 18 lines on to bisk and thats namedropping?

> on to bisk and thats namedropping? > > yes it is. > > > Bryan > > --------------------------------- > Bryan Bickel > bbickel@cs.wayne.edu > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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Circumflex wrote:

quoted 1 line ...gonzi's namedropping tendencies debate

> ...gonzi's namedropping tendencies debate

Hehehehe. Remember back in the day when fresh was knocking out IDM hero worship pages like drunk sailors on a 3 dollar whore? :-) All seriousness aside, I went down to the big orange wasteland last weekend and had dinner with gonzi and alex (aka Lexuanculpt). Twas the first time seeing either of them in almost a year and it was a nice so-cal IDM dork reunion. G said that the next two orange releases (d'archangelo & datathief) are at the pressing plant and should be hitting stores sometime in the next thirteen years. I've heard 'em both and they're a nice retreat back to the good old IDM days of yore. Alex had taken a bit of time off from making tunes but is now back in full swing. His approach has change a bit but the resulting tunes (some finished and some not) were tight as nun's cooter. Shane, 'lex's roommate had some amazing design work on the walls, very nice in a quasi-DR/plainclothsman look, but entirely his own style. Expect to see his touch invading the IDM world soon. The night degenerated into a serious geek out, with much dvd watching, pr0n surfing and software wanking well into the next morning. Sorry to be droppin' names too but these gorks are my friends! bockout. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 9 lines From: "Colin King-Bailey" <ckingbai@ucsd.edu>

>From: "Colin King-Bailey" <ckingbai@ucsd.edu> >Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days >Message-ID: <003101bf8edb$fbb09920$b1b53680@ucsd.edu> > > > So if you can call the 'good old days' when IDM was actually good, then > > yeah, I was there. > >well, are to l33+ or what? idm can't possibly be good NOW, 'cause we aren't >the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre.

I meant when IDM as in the music, not the list was actually good (was responding to the comment about being around when this 'golden age' IDM was being released). As another poster wrote, this list has always been pretty variable when it comes to signal and noise.

quoted 3 lines i'm sorry i'm not

>i'm sorry i'm not >cool, simon walley. thanks for bringing something elitist to the >discussion.

Thats quite all-right. Any other help you need, you just ask. || [CiM] || cim@headspacerecordings.co.uk || - ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 6 lines well, are to l33+ or what? idm can't possibly be good NOW, 'cause we aren't

>well, are to l33+ or what? idm can't possibly be good NOW, 'cause we aren't >the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre. i'm sorry i'm not >cool, simon walley. thanks for bringing something elitist to the >discussion. > > exactly

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quoted 48 lines From: rdevine@mindspring.com

>From: rdevine@mindspring.com >Reply-To: idm@hyperreal.org >To: <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days >Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:45:31 -0500 > >strange or funny-haha? > > >:__}||||| > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: bryan bickel <bbickel@cs.wayne.edu> >To: I despise Merzbow <idm@hyperreal.org> >Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 8:08 PM >Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days > > > > > > On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Gonzi 'Fresh' Merchan wrote: > > > > you son of a bitch, how do i namedrop? i godamn say richard devine >turned >me > > on to bisk and thats namedropping? > > > > yes it is. > > > > > > Bryan > > > > --------------------------------- > > Bryan Bickel > > bbickel@cs.wayne.edu > > > > > > But true,,,, and other cliches

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i don't think anyone on this thread is really listening to each other, and i think it's a pretty petty and pointless thread in the first place. so forget what i said therein. moving on, does dj shadow qualify as idm? ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Walley <cim_@hotmail.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 1:38 AM Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days

quoted 5 lines From: "Colin King-Bailey" <ckingbai@ucsd.edu>

> >From: "Colin King-Bailey" <ckingbai@ucsd.edu> > >Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days > >Message-ID: <003101bf8edb$fbb09920$b1b53680@ucsd.edu> > > > > > So if you can call the 'good old days' when IDM was actually good,

then

quoted 3 lines yeah, I was there.

> > > yeah, I was there. > > > >well, are to l33+ or what? idm can't possibly be good NOW, 'cause we

aren't

quoted 4 lines the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre.

> >the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre. > > I meant when IDM as in the music, not the list was actually good (was > responding to the comment about being around when this 'golden age' IDM

was

quoted 21 lines being released). As another poster wrote, this list has always been pretty

> being released). As another poster wrote, this list has always been pretty > variable when it comes to signal and noise. > > >i'm sorry i'm not > >cool, simon walley. thanks for bringing something elitist to the > >discussion. > > Thats quite all-right. Any other help you need, you just ask. > > || [CiM] > || cim@headspacerecordings.co.uk > || - > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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oh yeah, and what made the music in the 'golden age' better? can you give me a list of yer favorite stuff from this era? ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Walley <cim_@hotmail.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 1:38 AM Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days

quoted 5 lines From: "Colin King-Bailey" <ckingbai@ucsd.edu>

> >From: "Colin King-Bailey" <ckingbai@ucsd.edu> > >Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days > >Message-ID: <003101bf8edb$fbb09920$b1b53680@ucsd.edu> > > > > > So if you can call the 'good old days' when IDM was actually good,

then

quoted 3 lines yeah, I was there.

> > > yeah, I was there. > > > >well, are to l33+ or what? idm can't possibly be good NOW, 'cause we

aren't

quoted 4 lines the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre.

> >the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre. > > I meant when IDM as in the music, not the list was actually good (was > responding to the comment about being around when this 'golden age' IDM

was

quoted 21 lines being released). As another poster wrote, this list has always been pretty

> being released). As another poster wrote, this list has always been pretty > variable when it comes to signal and noise. > > >i'm sorry i'm not > >cool, simon walley. thanks for bringing something elitist to the > >discussion. > > Thats quite all-right. Any other help you need, you just ask. > > || [CiM] > || cim@headspacerecordings.co.uk > || - > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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On 16 Mar 00, Colin King-Bailey wrote re Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days:

quoted 2 lines oh yeah, and what made the music in the 'golden age' better? can you give me

> oh yeah, and what made the music in the 'golden age' better? can you give me > a list of yer favorite stuff from this era?

black dog, black dog, black dog... I * np : tarwater / silur --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Ladies and Gentlemen, is this guy kiddn or what? Detroit Escalator Co(Np), John Beltran, D. May, Carl Craig, B12, Kirk "Detroitio"(hee hee), Red Planet, etc... (ha ha...some of you thought I would type____ or ____.) Hk! -----Original Message----- From: Colin King-Bailey [mailto:ckingbai@ucsd.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 6:34 PM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days oh yeah, and what made the music in the 'golden age' better? can you give me a list of yer favorite stuff from this era? ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Walley <cim_@hotmail.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 1:38 AM Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days

quoted 5 lines From: "Colin King-Bailey" <ckingbai@ucsd.edu>

> >From: "Colin King-Bailey" <ckingbai@ucsd.edu> > >Subject: Re: (idm) Re The Good Old Days > >Message-ID: <003101bf8edb$fbb09920$b1b53680@ucsd.edu> > > > > > So if you can call the 'good old days' when IDM was actually good,

then

quoted 3 lines yeah, I was there.

> > > yeah, I was there. > > > >well, are to l33+ or what? idm can't possibly be good NOW, 'cause we

aren't

quoted 4 lines the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre.

> >the ones to 'discover' artists like mu-ziq and autechre. > > I meant when IDM as in the music, not the list was actually good (was > responding to the comment about being around when this 'golden age' IDM

was

quoted 21 lines being released). As another poster wrote, this list has always been pretty

> being released). As another poster wrote, this list has always been pretty > variable when it comes to signal and noise. > > >i'm sorry i'm not > >cool, simon walley. thanks for bringing something elitist to the > >discussion. > > Thats quite all-right. Any other help you need, you just ask. > > || [CiM] > || cim@headspacerecordings.co.uk > || - > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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