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sm@4thWorld wrote:

quoted 5 lines oh no - not the underground v mainstream debate agaaaain

> oh no - not the underground v mainstream debate agaaaain > ... > 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue > as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face > america will by it

Oh no - not the race debate again. -- Adam J Weitzman "Getting [your computer] to work is no more Individual, Inc. difficult than building a nuclear reactor weitzman@individual.com from wristwatch parts using only your teeth." http://www.individual.com - Dave Barry

quoted 3 lines 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black

>2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black > pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been > ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem

,

quoted 2 lines as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face

> as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face > america will by it

But Stuart, the American masses have recently had a massive love affair with gangsta rap, which is clearly black music but have topped the charts many times over and generated a ton of press. Many people have put forth the idea that one of the reasons for gangsta rap's success is that suburban/city non-black youths can listen to it and feel 'dangerous', like they're living on the edge themselves. Another point being that Ice Cube and Snoop have a much more up-front, aggressive public image, a catchy "face" that would-be fans of the genre can latch onto, where as the techno pioneers loved the idea of pseudonyms and anonymity and having music speak for itself (as far as I can tell) - which unfortunately won't exactly sell buckets of records in the US. So I think it's more complex than you suggest. It is however amusing to think about that alternate universe, where instead of NWA and Snoop and Death Row Records et al, Carl Craig and Derrick May and Transmat et al. are topping Billboard. A kinder, gentler America, groovin' to Detroit techno. :) James Jung-Hoon Seo // Oracle New Media (415) 506-3829 // jseo@us.oracle.com Chewbacca. // Harrison Ford, on the Tonight Show, when asked who among his numerous co-stars was the best kisser

Written by Hillie <buh@clark.net>

quoted 9 lines I can't lie that I want the music to become a little more mainstream, it

>I can't lie that I want the music to become a little more mainstream, it >will be easier to get hands on, and we wouldn't have to worry about shitty things like >losing tracks when buying the domestic releases like in some cases or others. also if >it's mainstream, MTV would most likely play WAY more IDM videos >that they are currently. Just because the music what's mainstream now is= >crap and the reason people listen to it is mostly only because it's mainstream doesn't >mean that we will or should protest the thought of IDM becoming mainstream, a lot of >good (detecting possible flame-war) things will come of it, and no bad things can come >of it, because the bad things of mainstream music are already here.

oh no - not the underground v mainstream debate agaaaain , be realistic can you really see the likes of autechre and aphex climbing up the us charts? no! , the decline of the traditional 'rawk' market has opened up a gaping hole but do you really think that acts like the prodigy & chemical brothers will force the average mainstream buyers to rethink their musical diet? the bottom line is the acceptance of chemical bros, prodigy etc into the mtv / american mainstream circuit is the combination of 2 factors 1. They still subscribe to the traditional *band* ethic eg guitars , stage shows ,stadium gigs 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face america will by it put that in your pipe and smoke it sm@4thworld *cutting edge mail order* http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/4thworld/ np - insyc - the storm

On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:49:53 -0800, you wrote:

quoted 5 lines 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black

>2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black > pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been > ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , > as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face > america will by it

none of the above have ever made any pop music. so they are not popular acts. the prodigy and the chemical brothers and even to some degree orbital make pop music. so they are popular acts. the recent uptake of 'electronic' music in the usa is purely because popular guitar bands in the kind of Guns'n'Roses and Black Crowes vein are not selling records any more. period. so they are looking for something else to sell. popular electronic 'dance' music. g.

quoted 6 lines the recent uptake of 'electronic' music in the usa is purely because

>the recent uptake of 'electronic' music in the usa is purely because >popular guitar bands in the kind of Guns'n'Roses and Black Crowes vein >are not selling records any more. period. > >so they are looking for something else to sell. popular electronic >'dance' music.

I think Greg is making an important point with the 'dance' distinction here. grant.h.horne

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, sm@4thWorld wrote:

quoted 5 lines 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black

> 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black > pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been > ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , > as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face > america will by it

oh maaaaaahn! get a clue!! the reason why craig, et al. were overlooked was because the style of music was not popular at the time, not the color of their skin. look at breakdance music. that was pretty popular in '83 and '84. hell, i even took breakdancing classes!!! race arguments are soooooo weak. peace... prymal ======== Prymal primal@interaccess.com http://www.interaccess.com/primal/ ======== A NEW JANUARY - CD debut, "Patchwork Shadows" electronic dance with a driving edge http://www.interaccess.com/primal/january/ ======== add some spice to your christ...necco wafers!

On 06-Feb-97, sm@4thWorld scribbled something about (idm) underground v mainstream:

quoted 6 lines oh no - not the underground v mainstream debate agaaaain , be realistic

>oh no - not the underground v mainstream debate agaaaain , be realistic >can you really see the likes of autechre and aphex climbing up the us >charts? no! , the decline of the traditional 'rawk' market has opened >up a gaping hole but do you really think that acts like the prodigy & >chemical brothers will force the average mainstream buyers to rethink >their musical diet?

well according to the article I read they are planning just that. anyhow, as long as they don't make cheap lame radio edits, I really don't care if it becomes mainstream or not. I would rather it would, but only so that maybe we'd have a bit more chance to see AFX play here in the US more than once a lifetime.

quoted 2 lines the bottom line is the acceptance of chemical bros, prodigy etc

>the bottom line is the acceptance of chemical bros, prodigy etc >into the mtv / american mainstream circuit is the combination of 2 factors

well I think what prodigy is doing what the labels want.. remixes "user friendly" (taken straight from the newsweek article) version of their songs which is pure crap.. they need to just do what they do, not listen to the labels, if the labels want them to do lame shit, then tell them to piss off. it's the only way, I don't think listening to a "poppified" version of IDM on the radio will get IDM mainstreamed. people will want to buy their records, then they'll hear them. They'll only like the radio edit, and then what's the point? and that's if they stop doing quality stuff altogether and go commercial like Moby did.

quoted 2 lines 1. They still subscribe to the traditional *band* ethic

>1. They still subscribe to the traditional *band* ethic > eg guitars , stage shows ,stadium gigs

well guitars are ok, but stage shows and stadium gigs suxx, who wants to sit around or stand up screaming while you're favorite artists are playing?

quoted 5 lines 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black

>2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black > pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been > ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , > as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face > america will by it

well don't forget all the gansta rappahs are at least half of them are black. I dunno how come they are forgottten, but I reckon it's not much of a case of black, since it seems nothing at all is mainstream here yet, not even the prodigy or chemical brothers. but I agree with you 100% about everything else, I just got a bit nervous above coz I really feel the labels should let the artists do their stuff and not try to lure the listeners to hear something totally different from what's on the radio. Of course I do believe that IDM could be the next 'alternative' because i've seen quite a few ppl who like AFX, that I've given it too.. but of course, with Goa Trance being commercial, lots LOTS more people, tons in fact have seemed to *LOVE* goa. so goa would definitely become mainstream techno here without a doubt I think. although I prefer IDM to goa 100%, my taste for goa has gone down a bit since it was when I first heard it. -- Hillie aka Aurafix / PHD ja DAMONES hillien kotisivu - http://www.clark.net/pub/buh/index.html phase distortion - http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~airou/phd/ easy internet services - http://huizen.dds.nl/~eis Do re mi fa so la ti.. Oh let's see if I can make it easier...

Well this f*(&ing debate is raging over every corner of my view of the internet. Can I just say that there is more than two options ? Underground - bullshit, Rave is a bastard offspring of a formerly underground situation. Most of the artists in question are European and are not operating in an underground/rave context anyway. vs, Commercial - this is the only other option ? nothing or huge ? We are talking about an increase in sales of an artistically healthy genre(s) of music. The prospect of it going mega huge is completely irrelevant. Why is every one so obsessed that its going to be mega huge or its going to not happen at all ? Just chill and see what happens. "People will get it." vs. "No people won't get it." Some people do get it, some people have, more will. Why does this have to be debated so much ? but.... After Nirvana, nothing would surprise me. (or surprise the industry, and they are taking this into account right now) "grunge" was the fastest uptake of new images (clothes, hair etc.) in popular culture since the 60s flower power explosion. Everything else has been much slower. As Moby himself points out, Aphex has sold more. Rock has not stopped selling, it has merely slowed, stop obsessing about other people's demises. Its all about personality, thats what makes an artist popular. Not even image, pure personality. Performing an image is an artform, just ask Prince or Madonna. They do it well. The fact that the artists are descended from (some 10 yrs. ago at least) a dance dj based genre is irrelevant. The mechanics of popular culture remain the same. R&B is the biggest thing there is. Oh, except for Country ? R&B is electronic music. Michael Jackson is more techno-logicallicly advanced than Aphex Twin. Sports still sells more than all this crap !!!!! Monster Truck Pull sells out the sports stadium every time !!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chris Sattinger new records coming on : Headspace (UK, feb) , Synewave(feb), Subvoice(Japan, feb), Sativae(?) NEW RELEASES - DISCOGRAPHY - INFO http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m082/satti002/ChrisSattinger.html US Techno House Business Resource : http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m082/satti002/DanceLabel.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

quoted 3 lines I didn't say that they do, or that they should so. their music defines

> I didn't say that they do, or that they should so. their music defines > their market. orbital and chem bros etc are beginning to let their > market define their music... a dangerous path.

Dunno about Chem Bros., but I think you're making a mistake about Orbital. The music on _In_Sides_, to my ears, isn't any more (or less) likely to be played on the radio than "Chime" and "Halcyon," say. Heck, you could even consider "The Box" to be an extension of "Belfast" or "Are We Here?" -- Adam J Weitzman "Getting [your computer] to work is no more Individual, Inc. difficult than building a nuclear reactor weitzman@individual.com from wristwatch parts using only your teeth." http://www.individual.com - Dave Barry

On Fri, 07 Feb 1997 10:34:41 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 9 lines I didn't say that they do, or that they should so. their music defines

>> I didn't say that they do, or that they should so. their music defines >> their market. orbital and chem bros etc are beginning to let their >> market define their music... a dangerous path. > >Dunno about Chem Bros., but I think you're making a mistake about >Orbital. The music on _In_Sides_, to my ears, isn't any more (or >less) likely to be played on the radio than "Chime" and "Halcyon," say. >Heck, you could even consider "The Box" to be an extension of "Belfast" >or "Are We Here?"

nah. it's miles *less* likely to be played. insides is the large flaw in my orbital = pop arguement as it's very much un-pop. g.

From: (Greg Eden) Subject: Re: (idm) underground v mainstream On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:49:53 -0800, 4th World wrote:

quoted 5 lines 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black

>>2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black >> pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been >> ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , >> as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face >> america will by it

quoted 4 lines none of the above have ever made any pop music. so they are not

>none of the above have ever made any pop music. so they are not >popular acts. >the prodigy and the chemical brothers and even to some degree orbital >make pop music. so they are popular acts.

the chemical brothers , orbital - pop music, get a grip so any artist who gets into the charts could be designated as pop music because they are *popular*, irrespective of their generic style of music, what about all the early warp acts like LFO that got in the charts - are they 'pop music' From: Prymal <primal@interaccess.com> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, sm@4thWorld wrote:

quoted 5 lines 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black

>> 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black >> pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been >> ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , >> as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face >> america will by it

quoted 3 lines oh maaaaaahn! get a clue!! the reason why craig, et al. were overlooked

>oh maaaaaahn! get a clue!! the reason why craig, et al. were overlooked >was because the style of music was not popular at the time, not the color >of their skin.

nah -, take the example of jazz , jazz only became popular in america when it was performed by white artists , sold by white record company's and written about by the white press, artists like chet baker sold millions whilst miles davis & charlie parker were unknowns - sounds familiar don't it? this is in direct parallel with the 1990's , the creators and innovators have been usurped and replaced by artists who once again bring an acceptable face to once revolutionary musical movement, maybe you don't care about the ethics involved, but in our minds it adds up to nothing less than mass cultural explotation Written by "James" <JSEO@us.oracle.com>

quoted 6 lines But Stuart, the American masses have recently had a massive love affair with

>But Stuart, the American masses have recently had a massive love affair with >gangsta rap, which is clearly black music but have topped the charts many >times over and generated a ton of press. Many people have put forth the idea >that one of the reasons for gangsta rap's success is that suburban/city >non-black youths can listen to it and feel 'dangerous', like they're living on >the edge themselves.

yeah - but all gangsta rap has done has re-inforced the stereotypical image that white middle class america has of black culture , a lot of rappers are now railing againts 'gangsta rap', these guys are saying that the only way a black artist can make it in america is to 'uncle tom it'........ some relevant quotes "black people cant get the opportunity to be artists. They can get a chance to be entertainers all they like , but they cant get the opportunity to be true artists. Record companys want to take their chances with marketable people which happens to be the people of their own gender,colour or race" DERRICK MAY "If me , Derrick May and Kevin Saunderson had been white , we would have been the biggest thing since sliced bread" JUAN ATKINS "Derrick compares his situation to Goldies , pointing out that 'Timeless' was a perfect beautiful record than failed to sell in the US because record companies, radio stations and musical infrastructure still could not deal with a black man producing non-recognisably black music" QUOTED FROM MIXMAG DERRICK MAY INTERVIEW 4thworld crew http;//dialspace.dial.pipex.com/4thworld/

On Fri, 07 Feb 1997 11:02:59 -0800, you wrote:

quoted 20 lines From: (Greg Eden)

>From: (Greg Eden) >Subject: Re: (idm) underground v mainstream > >On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:49:53 -0800, 4th World wrote: >>>2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black >>> pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been >>> ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , >>> as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face >>> america will by it > >>none of the above have ever made any pop music. so they are not >>popular acts. >>the prodigy and the chemical brothers and even to some degree orbital >>make pop music. so they are popular acts. > >the chemical brothers , orbital - pop music, get a grip >so any artist who gets into the charts could be designated as >pop music because they are *popular*, irrespective of their generic >style of music, what about all the early warp acts like LFO that got >in the charts - are they 'pop music'

eh? charts have nothing to do with it pop music isn't just popular music. and it isn't all bad. warp have released a few records that could be termed pop(ish, anyway) in the past, LFO - LFO in it own way was quite pop, the vocal mix on N.O.W: Stars is quite pop, Jimi Tenor Outta Space, Kid Unknown nightmare walking, Sabres Wilmot, they are all moderately pop with vocal and melody hooks. are you telling me that that chem bros setting sun thing wasn't pop? orbital (see also the chem bros) are sacharin sweet and hence palatable for most, relatively non-repetative, melodies etc etc. they are perfect pop 'techno' which is whey they are so successful, students who want to get into 'the underground' or be a bit different whatever - it's always orbital. different but not too different. it's 'nice' music. R-Tyme despite the fact it is just about the best piece of music ever made (not that derrick had much to do with it hehe or much of anything by the sounds of it) is not pop nor is ever likely to be, neither is No UFOS, strings of life, my machines, etc etc. heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that women (generally Helen :) would buy orbital (and chem bros(?)) but wouldn't ever buy a red planet 12". which also accounts for their sales. the detroit crew cut out 50% of the population... OnNow: jimi tenor vodka glasses

On Fri, 07 Feb 1997 11:55:54 GMT, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that women (generally

>heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that women (generally >Helen :) would buy orbital (and chem bros(?)) but wouldn't ever buy a >red planet 12".

ooops, that was supposed to be: "heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that women (generally, Helen, generally :) would buy orbital (and chem bros(?)) but wouldn't ever buy a red planet 12" g.

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, sm@4thWorld wrote:

quoted 5 lines nah -, take the example of jazz , jazz only became popular in

> nah -, take the example of jazz , jazz only became popular in > america when it was performed by white artists , sold by white record > company's and written about by the white press, artists like chet baker > sold millions whilst miles davis & charlie parker were unknowns - sounds > familiar don't it?

Is this just an american problem? I can remember Pete Tong (Radio 1 DJ and director of London records) saying in Muzik that Goldie's Timeless was one of his favourite albums of the year. I got the impression that the album did quite well in the UK. I've also got the impression that Carl Craig doesn't do too badly for himself either. How do Tricky albums sell in the US? Tim In every work of genius we recognise our own rejected thoughts; they come back to us with a certain alienated majesty.

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:25:31 -0400 (AST), you wrote:

quoted 11 lines On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, sm@4thWorld wrote:

>On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, sm@4thWorld wrote: >> nah -, take the example of jazz , jazz only became popular in >> america when it was performed by white artists , sold by white record >> company's and written about by the white press, artists like chet baker >> sold millions whilst miles davis & charlie parker were unknowns - sounds >> familiar don't it? > >Is this just an american problem? I can remember Pete Tong (Radio 1 DJ and >director of London records) saying in Muzik that Goldie's Timeless was one >of his favourite albums of the year. I got the impression that the album >did quite well in the UK.

it did very well thank you very much. but then Goldie's pop music innit ;) g.

Written by (Greg Eden)

quoted 7 lines Subject: Re: (idm) underground v mainstream

>Subject: Re: (idm) underground v mainstream >On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:49:53 -0800, 4th World wrote: >>the chemical brothers , orbital - pop music, get a grip >>so any artist who gets into the charts could be designated as >>pop music because they are *popular*, irrespective of their generic >>style of music, what about all the early warp acts like LFO that got >>in the charts - are they 'pop music'

quoted 2 lines eh? charts have nothing to do with it pop music isn't just popular

>eh? charts have nothing to do with it pop music isn't just popular >music. and it isn't all bad.

well - what are they to do with then? , charts are just a statistical representation of record sales , you said pop = popular music , therefore by the same maxim - if it's in the charts it must be pop music - because it is popular, make yer mind up

quoted 5 lines warp have released a few records that

>warp have released a few records that >could be termed pop(ish, anyway) in the past, LFO - LFO in it own way >was quite pop, the vocal mix on N.O.W: Stars is quite pop, Jimi Tenor >Outta Space, Kid Unknown nightmare walking, Sabres Wilmot, they are >all moderately pop with vocal and melody hooks.

yer talking nads now, i didnt see lfo as a pop track when it came out , steve wright on radio one proclaimed it as the 'worst record ever released' and what as he playing - yes pop, its funny to see warp touting itself as releasing 'pop' product, ken downie was right about you guys

quoted 1 line are you telling me that that chem bros setting sun thing wasn't pop?

>are you telling me that that chem bros setting sun thing wasn't pop?

nah - it was shit

quoted 6 lines orbital (see also the chem bros) are sacharin sweet and hence

>orbital (see also the chem bros) are sacharin sweet and hence >palatable for most, relatively non-repetative, melodies etc etc. they >are perfect pop 'techno' which is whey they are so successful, >students who want to get into 'the underground' or be a bit different >whatever - it's always orbital. different but not too different. it's >nice' music.

so when the chemical brothers et al started off they were pop , or when did they become pop? , when they statred selling records? and students don't have the capacity to understand 'difficult' music?

quoted 4 lines R-Tyme despite the fact it is just about the best piece of music ever

>R-Tyme despite the fact it is just about the best piece of music ever >made (not that derrick had much to do with it hehe or much of anything >by the sounds of it) is not pop nor is ever likely to be, neither is >No UFOS, strings of life, my machines, etc etc.

which r-tyme track? , as i have said before - *one* derrick may track 'strings of life' has changed and affected more people than the entire warp back catalog ever will

quoted 4 lines heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that women (generally

>heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that women (generally >Helen :) would buy orbital (and chem bros(?)) but wouldn't ever buy a >red planet 12". which also accounts for their sales. the detroit crew >cut out 50% of the population...

that is utter fucking drivel - your cracking us up here mate, the 'detroit crew' don't make music for any particular 'market', that is the differance between them and you lot, if red planet singles were marketed with chain with no name deals , glossy covers and sold at 1.99 in our price i think you find it would be a different story..... they don't need wacky personalities and marketing campaigns to sell their music, why dont warp stick their neck out and sign someone like low res, kim rapatti, andres remmer..... someone making a difference 4th world crew *cutting edge mail order* http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/4thworld/

ooooh, haven't we got'n out of the wrong side of bed this morning :) On Fri, 07 Feb 1997 12:23:30 -0800, you wrote:

quoted 1 line Written by (Greg Eden)

>Written by (Greg Eden)

quoted 7 lines eh? charts have nothing to do with it pop music isn't just popular

>>eh? charts have nothing to do with it pop music isn't just popular >>music. and it isn't all bad. > >well - what are they to do with then? , charts are just a statistical >representation of record sales , you said pop = popular music , >therefore by the same maxim - if it's in the charts it must be pop music - >because it is popular, make yer mind up

i'm beginning to lose my own thread here but basically a record can be 'pop' without selling loads of copies. and a record that sells loads of copies doesn't have to be 'pop'. pop is valid genre of music just like 'techno' is. pulp, babybird etc are all pop and they are ace. - (hey they all come from sheffield - hmmm) chem bros are (relatively) pop and *do* sell loads of records.

quoted 8 lines warp have released a few records that

>>warp have released a few records that >>could be termed pop(ish, anyway) in the past, LFO - LFO in it own way >>was quite pop, the vocal mix on N.O.W: Stars is quite pop, Jimi Tenor >>Outta Space, Kid Unknown nightmare walking, Sabres Wilmot, they are >>all moderately pop with vocal and melody hooks. > >yer talking nads now, i didnt see lfo as a pop track when >it came out

neither did I at the time I thought it was the best record ever made (I'd led a musically sheltered life) but listening to it now I would class it as a relatively pop on the techno scale. the two tracks on teh b-side are actually miles better IMHO. still a fucking awesome track though and on my all time list.

quoted 2 lines , steve wright on radio one proclaimed it as the

>, steve wright on radio one proclaimed it as the >'worst record ever released' and what as he playing - yes pop,

quoted 1 line its funny to see warp touting itself as releasing 'pop' product,

>its funny to see warp touting itself as releasing 'pop' product,

eh? I'm not touting anything for warp. I said that I think some of our records are relatively pop. so what? we also release some very un-pop records.

quoted 1 line ken downie was right about you guys

>ken downie was right about you guys

i'll leave people to decide themselves. ken has many opinions on many things.

quoted 2 lines so when the chemical brothers et al started off they were pop , or

>so when the chemical brothers et al started off they were pop , or >when did they become pop?

well by all accounts the first record wasn't pop I can't actually remember what it was I don't have a chem bros record. but I think by remaking the same track fifteen hundred million times and then adding Oasis vocals they have somewhat entered the pop field. my lack of absolute chem bros fact makes my arguement somewhat wobbly - I still think it's valid though. I think the prodigy or 2 unlimited would be a better worked example ;)

quoted 2 lines , when they statred selling records? and students

>, when they statred selling records? and students >don't have the capacity to understand 'difficult' music?

students are sheep.

quoted 1 line which r-tyme track?

>which r-tyme track?

well the good one on the t-mat 12" obviously.

quoted 3 lines , as i have said before - *one* derrick may track

>, as i have said before - *one* derrick may track >'strings of life' has changed and affected more people than the >entire warp back catalog ever will

this is quite possibly true. lot's of people in 'our' genre do seem to quote this as an influence. I personally don't like the track (it's a piano thang) so I'm not really qualified to talk about it. you do seem to be on a bit of an anti-warp trip today don't you? I think you kinda pre-empted a statement that know one at warp would even contemplate. I think we have a pretty realistic idea where our artist's music fit's into the general scheme of things.

quoted 7 lines heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that women (generally

>>heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that women (generally >>Helen :) would buy orbital (and chem bros(?)) but wouldn't ever buy a >>red planet 12". which also accounts for their sales. the detroit crew >>cut out 50% of the population... > >that is utter fucking drivel - your cracking us up here mate, the 'detroit crew' don't >make music for any particular 'market',

I didn't say that they do, or that they should so. their music defines their market. orbital and chem bros etc are beginning to let their market define their music... a dangerous path.

quoted 3 lines that is the differance between them and you lot,

>that is the differance between them and you lot, >if red planet singles were marketed with chain with no name deals , glossy covers and >sold at 1.99 in our price i think you find it would be a different story.....

of course it would. you should act as a marketing consultant for them. i think I should explode the myth that detroit artists are these martyrs who are happy to sell a few records and are not bothered about money. ask renaat at r&s :) I think the only exception to that rule is possibly mad mike. do you think that people shouldn't try to sell lot's of copies of their records? I don't see the relevance of the dig at warp there.

quoted 3 lines they don't need wacky personalities and marketing campaigns to sell their music, why

>they don't need wacky personalities and marketing campaigns to sell their music, why >dont warp stick their neck out and sign someone like low res, kim rapatti, andres >remmer..... someone making a difference

oh come on. that's just silly. warp has stuck it's neck out on numerous occasions and will continue to do so. but it's rob and steve's record label - they put out records because they like the artist and the music. period. and they hope each of those records will sell as many copies as possible and try to market them so that they do. is this such a crime? the music comes first. then the marketing. I can't name names and this is not supposed to make them sound like saints or anything but when I started to work for warp i found it quite surprising to learn that lots of famous artists have submitted demos of records that went on to be big sellers but rob and steve did not put them out because they didn't like the music. bonkers :) I admire rob and steve's immensly for not selling out to the (numerous) major offers. I'm not sure that I could have resisted such large ammounts of money. bah. this all sounds a bit melodramatic. you don't like warp and I don't think I'm going to be able to change your opinion, I really don't see why you had to drag the chip that sits in your shoulder (whatever that is) into a perfectly good/silly scrap about the nature of popular music. am i allowed to bring in my chip about your annoying preaching patronising holier than thou manner? :) g.

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:06:21 -0700 (MST), Eric Frans <franse@engr.arizona.edu> wrote:

quoted 13 lines On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Greg Eden wrote:

>On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Greg Eden wrote: >} >, when they statred selling records? and students >} >don't have the capacity to understand 'difficult' music? >} >} students are sheep. > >Hmm... Really? I think you should have clarified that statement a little >with one of your famous ( ) additions. I'm a student and I'm sure a large >percentage of the IDM list memebers are students. Are we sheep? I don't >think so. Granted, a lot of students tend to follow trends when buying >music, but at the same time there are many who do some serious research >and find music that *they* truly enjoy rather than what the media wants >them to enjoy.

heh, yes, i thought about qualifying that one but then it wouldn't have had quite the same impact (or picqued as many people) ;). g. 'it affects the part of the brain known as shatner's bassoon'

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Greg Eden wrote: } >, when they statred selling records? and students } >don't have the capacity to understand 'difficult' music? } } students are sheep. Hmm... Really? I think you should have clarified that statement a little with one of your famous ( ) additions. I'm a student and I'm sure a large percentage of the IDM list memebers are students. Are we sheep? I don't think so. Granted, a lot of students tend to follow trends when buying music, but at the same time there are many who do some serious research and find music that *they* truly enjoy rather than what the media wants them to enjoy. | E r i c | [mail] franse@engr.arizona.edu | | F r a n s | [web] http://intermix.engr.arizona.edu/~franse | "Make the events occur that you want to occur" - The Black Dog

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Greg Eden wrote: } >, when they statred selling records? and students } >don't have the capacity to understand 'difficult' music? } } students are sheep. Hmm... Really? I think you should have clarified that statement a little with one of your famous ( ) additions. I'm a student and I'm sure a large percentage of the IDM list memebers are students. Are we sheep? I don't think so. Granted, a lot of students tend to follow trends when buying music, but at the same time there are many who do some serious research and find music that *they* truly enjoy rather than what the media wants them to enjoy. | E r i c | [mail] franse@engr.arizona.edu | | F r a n s | [web] http://intermix.engr.arizona.edu/~franse | "Make the events occur that you want to occur" - The Black Dog