IDM Mailing Archive

--- Adam Piontek <damek@earthling.net> wrote: From: <edhall@weirdnoise.com> <<Describe it any way that seems suitable, but calling it a "bad release" or "garbage" crosses the line into telling other people what they should think of it.>> Crossing a line? Telling your honest opinion is sufficient. It doesn't have to be watered down to please others. If you think it's meadow muffin than say it.

quoted 2 lines but reviews are inherently subjective. this has

> but reviews are inherently subjective. this has > been covered already. who doesn't know this?

You would think this is totally obvious. But there are several morons on this list that can't bare the thought of someone not liking what they like. Truthful opinions, PLEASE. If you hate something, say so, maybe say something to support your feelings...like the production quality is shite, or whatever.

quoted 4 lines do i have to put smileys and "IMHO" after every damn

> do i have to put smileys and "IMHO" after every damn > thing i type now? if i call something "bad" and > "garbage" isn't it obvious that that's only what i > think?

You would think that people are grown up enough to discuss difference of opinions on this list. But after the whole PLUR thread, I may be proven wrong

quoted 9 lines if i said "this is objectively a bad release with no

> if i said "this is objectively a bad release with no > technical skills > or merit, the artist should be lynched, no one > should buy it, and > people who even have an mp3 of it should be given > severe wedgies" -- > then i might agree with you that i was telling other > people what they > should think.

Not a bad idea. Wedgies for supporting bad electronic music, I like that. But then there would be a significant number of bowlegged ravers.

quoted 3 lines but if i say "this is bad and garbage" ... um, i

> but if i say "this is bad and garbage" ... um, i > didn't tell anyone > anything except what _i_ think.

Agreed, fuck all the spineless sheep on this list. Be honest about your opinions! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

William Samuels <w_technoir@yahoo.com> wrote: : --- Adam Piontek <damek@earthling.net> wrote: : > but reviews are inherently subjective. this has : > been covered already. who doesn't know this? : : You would think this is totally obvious. But there are : several morons on this list that can't bare the : thought of someone not liking what they like. On the contrary: calling something just "garbage" attempts to deny that someone else might plausibly like it, and suggests that the author can't bear the thought that what he or she dislikes may be pleasing to someone else. It matters little to me that you or Adam don't like Ischemic Folks. I've spent most of my life listening to and enjoying music that most people don't appear to like, and I'm hardly insecure about it. : Truthful opinions, PLEASE. Saying you can't stand something is an opinion. Saying it is garbage is an attempt to state an opinion as a fact. I hope that's not too subtle a difference for you. Nor do I expect you'll have trouble understanding why the term "truthful opinion" is an oxymoron--I suspect that what you meant to say was "honest opinion," and would never mistake an opinion for a statement of truth. : If you hate something, say so, maybe say something to : support your feelings...like the production quality is : shite, or whatever. I've no problem at all with this--especially if you give reasons for your dislike. Bad reviews can be just as useful as good ones when they are clear about their criteria. If someone criticizes music as "a bunch of rapid-fire, souless bleeps" then there is a good chance that I might like it, for example. If they simply say "it stinks," then they've told me nothing useful other than that they simply didn't care enough to attempt a bit of introspection and make an effort to express themselves. : You would think that people are grown up enough to : discuss difference of opinions on this list. But after : the whole PLUR thread, I may be proven wrong You'd think that people would be grown up enough to discuss differences of opinion without calling each other "morons." -Ed --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:01:35 -0700, edhall@weirdnoise.com wrote:

quoted 4 lines On the contrary: calling something just "garbage" attempts

>On the contrary: calling something just "garbage" attempts >to deny that someone else might plausibly like it, and >suggests that the author can't bear the thought that what >he or she dislikes may be pleasing to someone else. It

not to me. to me, calling something garbage when it is in fact music is called using a metaphor. it represents the utmost in creativity and should be respected as the sort of thing this list is all about [note: this is tongue-in-cheek. take heed.] anyway, i don't think it means that i couldn't "bear the thought" of other people enjoying it, i think it means merely that i didn't enjoy it and i wouldn't expect other people too. i mean, come on, who hasn't enjoyed someone else's garbage once in a while? "one man's garbage is another man's gold" and all that

quoted 4 lines matters little to me that you or Adam don't like Ischemic

>matters little to me that you or Adam don't like Ischemic >Folks. I've spent most of my life listening to and enjoying >music that most people don't appear to like, and I'm hardly >insecure about it.

good, so stop worrying about me saying things like "garbage" and "fizz" and "yoko ono"

quoted 2 lines Saying you can't stand something is an opinion. Saying it

>Saying you can't stand something is an opinion. Saying it >is garbage is an attempt to state an opinion as a fact.

no, it's a metaphor. anyways, everything anyone ever says is really just a statement of opinion. hasn't quantum physics taught us anything? we all really only believe we know the things we know. so even if i said "i got ischemic folks on CD" you could only take my word for it. you might not believe me, but then that's you're perogative. hey, that sounds like how i think you should take my "it's garbage" statement... you might not believe/agree with me, and that's fine. if everyone agreed with me all the time i'd stop respecting them.

quoted 5 lines hope that's not too subtle a difference for you. Nor do

>hope that's not too subtle a difference for you. Nor do >I expect you'll have trouble understanding why the term >"truthful opinion" is an oxymoron--I suspect that what you >meant to say was "honest opinion," and would never mistake >an opinion for a statement of truth.

i can't repond for the other guy but yeah, "honest opinion" sounds right. even if we were saying "truthful facts," though, i'd have to pull out my pickyness and say that's not possible.

quoted 7 lines : If you hate something, say so, maybe say something to

>: If you hate something, say so, maybe say something to >: support your feelings...like the production quality is >: shite, or whatever. > >I've no problem at all with this--especially if you give >reasons for your dislike. Bad reviews can be just as useful >as good ones when they are clear about their criteria. If

what if I said "it was garbage because it wasn't to my taste?" that is clear about the criteria: the criteria were my tastes. that's all some of us (well me anyway) can say about what we hear. I agree, it's better to make more of an effort, but [important point coming up] these statements do not always come up in the context of a review. my garbage statement, for example, was not part of a review. it was a comment related to other issues. i didn't feel a need to go on endlessly about it, as i seem to be doing about this for no reason right now... sorry to finish: this list isn't moderated, i like it that way. you don't have to worry about everything i say, so if i say something you don't like, please ignore it. you said yourself you're not insecure and don't care what others think, so don't worry about what i think. if you don't want to. use your mind. otherwise, i've learned my lesson; from now on i'll only post comments like "IMHO [makes you know it's an opinion, and humble at that], Ischemic Strokes is to my ears as smelly garbage is to my nose [an analogy, not a confusing metaphor], and by that I mean I didn't like listening to it because it didn't suit my tastes [clears up everything for those who didn't get the analogy]." And even then I'll have to say something about "bleep this" or "screech that" or "everything you youngsters listen to is just noise anyway" so you will really understand where I'm coming from. and that was another joke, i'm only 22 for god's sake... -adam -- Adam Piontek [http://www.tcinternet.net/users/damek/] ICQ: 3456339 [damek@earthling.net] ... Never play leapfrog with a unicorn. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:02:30 -0400, Michael Upton wrote:

quoted 8 lines ===== Original Message From edhall@weirdnoise.com =====

>>===== Original Message From edhall@weirdnoise.com ===== >>Saying you can't stand something is an opinion. Saying it >>is garbage is an attempt to state an opinion as a fact. > >FWIW, I would consider the second sentence above to be an attempt to state an >opinion as a fact. At the least you are doing exactly the same thing, >grammatically (using a passive mood over personal pronouns), so if grammatical >constructions are all that matter, you're just as guilty.

i'm pretty sure he was under the impression that what he was stating *was* a fact.

quoted 6 lines I tend to think that the key thing this kind of stuff misses by a country mile

>I tend to think that the key thing this kind of stuff misses by a country mile >is that people use language differently on mailing lists. Consider your >context. Some people carefully pick every word, others are more colloquial and >chatty. Saying "when you write this, this is the result" strikes me as >nonsense, if the massive amount of stylistic variation from poster to poster >is not considered.

having studied anthropology, i really appreciate what you've said here. on the other hand, as a student of anthropology, i also have to respect that one of the features of any culture, no matter how small, is that it is held together by common accepted practices. it seems to me that what's at issue here is whether it should be an accepted practice in the culture of this list to make statements of opinion like I made, or if it should be more formal and require more effort in each post. to be a participant in the culture of this list (i'm pretty new here, as i'm sure has been noticed), i'm willing to put extra effort in my posts and clarify my opinions when i write them, so those of you complaining about my "it's garbage" statement are half-winning. i say 'half' because i'm not going to stop talking about confucianism, and there's nothing you can do to make me stop! i wasn't talking about confucianism? oh, nevermind then.

quoted 2 lines is that it's impossible to know where any individual poster is coming from to

>is that it's impossible to know where any individual poster is coming from to >the degree you're ascribing above.

true, i agree completely. but i cede the point to those complaining that it's nice when one makes the effort at making their opinions more clearly that. at least for the sake of the group as a whole. sort of like when you're stranded on an island somewhere, and you agree to die for the good of the group so that the others might survive longer by eating you. ok, maybe not. -adam -- Adam Piontek [http://www.tcinternet.net/users/damek/] ICQ: 3456339 [damek@earthling.net] ... "Well, you did say Jehova..." <Thunk!> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Okey dokey. Let me flagellate the deceased equine one more time. I promise, it's off to the glue factory after this one. Metaphor is good. Opinions are good. I'd love to hear some good ones. I don't care how colloquial your language is. I don't care if the music I like gives you the runs and makes your eyes cross. I don't care if the music you like makes me break out in hives and projectile vomit. Tell me about it. Describe what you hear. If you think something sounds like a room full of monkeys banging on old hubcaps while their gorilla buddy flushes toilets in 5/4 time, then SAY SO. Simple value words like "bad," "garbage," or "stupid" don't tell me a damn thing about how the music sounds. Yeah, it tells me how you feel, on some third-grade level, but frankly that's of little use to me. I don't even feel bad that you've wasted a precious hour of your life listening to something you feel is worthless or just vaguely sub-par. But you can make it more worthwhile, for you and for me and for all the folks at home, if you manage to be a bit more courageous and try to describe what you hear and what you like about it, and what you don't. OK, I'll be blunt. I don't read IDM for any sort of social bonding. I don't read it to validate my views on what music is, Intelligent or Otherwise. I read it to learn and share knowledge, impressions, and ideas about the various beat-oriented electronic musics that folks may or may not call "IDM." I read it to find out about music I might want to seek out or avoid. I read to share information. The fact that you or I find something agreeable or disagreeable is, on its own, of little interest to everybody else. I'm sorry to break that news to you if you haven't realized this before. However, I'm keenly interested in what you've heard that I haven't heard (even if it's something I've listened to before), insofar as you can describe it to me in a way I can understand--and there are quite a few others here who follow and contribute to the list for the same reason. It's called "discussion," and it's what 'most any good mailing list is about. Good information is useful no matter whether the opinions behind it are agreeable or not, 'cause the opinions really don't matter to anyone but the people who have them. OK, 'nuff said from this quarter. -Ed --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

--- edhall@weirdnoise.com wrote: <<On the contrary: calling something just "garbage" attempts to deny that someone else might plausibly like it, and suggests that the author can't bear the thought that what he or she dislikes may be pleasing to someone else.>> So are you saying Ed that artists never release "garbage"? I have known many fine artists to have a total crap release from time to time. I sure there are many artists that just release something even they feel isn't worthy just to get a paycheck. I can think of producers that put out great music, that often do shite remixes. Calling something garbage DOES NOT attempt to deny anyone anything. It's merely stating that you DO NOT LIKE the release in any way. One man's garbage could be another's gem. It's still garbage to you, so why not say it. <<It matters little to me that you or Adam don't like Ischemic Folks. I've spent most of my life listening to and enjoying music that most people don't appear to like, and I'm hardly insecure about it.>> I wasn't dissing any Schematic artists or releases, merely speaking in principle about being honest.

quoted 3 lines : Truthful opinions, PLEASE.

> : Truthful opinions, PLEASE. > > Saying you can't stand something is an opinion.

No fucking shit!!! How many times does that have to be said on this list, must be in the thousands.

quoted 1 line Saying it is garbage is an attempt to state an

> Saying it is garbage is an attempt to state an

opinion as a fact. "No fucking shit!!! How many times does that have to be said on this list, must be in the thousands."

quoted 1 line hope that's not too subtle a difference for you.

> hope that's not too subtle a difference for you.

Duuhh? I don't think any human on the planet is all knowing and possesses 100% truth. All we can do is express opinions. You wouldn't think that every time someone has an opinion that someone would not have to try and distinguish opinion from fact etc. etc. etc. Doesn't it feel like that movie "Groundhog day". Every fucking day you have to say yes that's an opinion not a universal truth. Shouldn't that be fucking obvious. <<Nor do I expect you'll have trouble understanding why the term "truthful opinion" is an oxymoron--I suspect that what you meant to say was "honest opinion," and would never mistake an opinion for a statement of truth.>> So what do you want? Some "truthful opinion clause" under every email. "The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent everyone on the list, nor are they to be treated like the word of God." Maybe this should be added to every post on the list. Why is it only when you say you DON'T like something, that people have to remind you of the OBVIOUS? I don't see people saying "well you do know that is only your opinion" if they LIKE something. Maybe for all of the "slower people" that have problems distinguishing opinions from non-opinions should start asking their parents for help.

quoted 5 lines : If you hate something, say so, maybe say something

> : If you hate something, say so, maybe say something > to > : support your feelings...like the production > quality is > : shite, or whatever.

<<I've no problem at all with this--especially if you give reasons for your dislike. Bad reviews can be just as useful as good ones when they are clear about their criteria. If someone criticizes music as "a bunch of rapid-fire, souless bleeps" then there is a good chance that I might like it, for example. If they simply say "it stinks," then they've told me nothing useful other than that they simply didn't care enough to attempt a bit of introspection and make an effort to express themselves.>> Oh my

quoted 4 lines : You would think that people are grown up enough to

> : You would think that people are grown up enough to > : discuss difference of opinions on this list. But > after > : the whole PLUR thread, I may be proven wrong

<<You'd think that people would be grown up enough to discuss differences of opinion without calling each other "morons.">> Actually I don't know if I have ever called someone a name (directly) when it comes to a difference of opinion. However, IF I feel the quality of many of the posts are on a "moronic/imbecile level", I have might say something in general, not referring to any particular person. Ta ta __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

let's all just follow the tenets of E-Prime and be done with it: http://www.gate.net/~zardoz/eprime.htm "When a proposition resists all efforts to recast it in a form consistent with what we now call E-Prime, many consider it 'meaningless.'" ------------ 1642 try 621 ------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org