IDM Mailing Archive

I offer my two pennies... AL> > again, the question remains: why categorize? in any way shape or form? a matter of convenience,not necessary and not without its price and limitations AL>I'm assuming you mean "Why categorize music" here(i haven't been AL>watching this thread). If this is your question, the answer is easy. AL>First example: i walk into a music store, and would like to find the AL>new Scanner disc...where do i look? If there aren't any categories, AL>i'm lost as all hell. Look under 's' for Scanner AL>Second Example: i like to listen to the ambient radio show on tuesday AL>nights in montreal. Were there no categories to music, this show AL>could not exist. Um... perhaps it would have a different title, that might morph into a category depending on the level of tendency for the listeners to limit the shows and the shows musics possibilities... hopefully this would not happen... But why could the show not just be called "Into the Deep" or something appropriate at a feeling level rather than referring to the music at a functional level? Lord knows the 'definitions' of ambient that Ive encountered on that list are so haphazard that to call a show ambient would in no way clear me up on what would be on it. In some peoples minds it may attract or repel, which I find sad as it just fosters dualism and judgement and mitigates against a sense of discovery in music listening. AL>Third Example: By not categorizing, you're lumping country music, AL>classical music, r&b, and greek folk music in with idm, ambient, AL>hardcore, house, and rap. This will not do, in my opinion! By not categorizing you ensure two things. 1. Some people will encounter music they would otherwise not encounter. A good thing. 2. Music writers have to take the music they evaluate on its merits and their subejctive experience alone. A good thing. Categorization is a thing the English language is supreme at and is one of its greatest limiting aspects, limiting our own expression in the language.Instead of saying a piece of music is light like the clouds in the sky, floating gently in and out of consciousness bringing light and shade alternately.... for example, we can, and do, say... its ambient. But.. this is samsara respects to all alan hey freshie... I liked your take on this one This message originates from Netlink.net.au Melbournes Premier Low Cost Internet Service Provider Call in with your Browser to http://www.netlink.net.au/

On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 alanb@netlink.net.au wrote:

quoted 6 lines Lord knows the 'definitions' of ambient that Ive

> Lord knows the 'definitions' of ambient that Ive > encountered on that list are so haphazard that to call a show ambient > would in no way clear me up on what would be on it. In some peoples > minds it may attract or repel, which I find sad as it just fosters > dualism and judgement and mitigates against a sense of discovery in > music listening.

This point is not without merit, if a bit utopian--same as #1, below.

quoted 4 lines By not categorizing you ensure two things. 1. Some people will

> By not categorizing you ensure two things. 1. Some people will > encounter music they would otherwise not encounter. A good thing. > 2. Music writers have to take the music they evaluate on its merits and > their subejctive experience alone. A good thing.

#1, sure, no problem. #2, how do you propose to evaluate music "on its merits" without reference to the standards of the musical community(ies) that produce, (consume, if applicable (it generally is)), and experience that music? It would be a tremendous disservice to evaluate the music of Autechre by the same criteria one would use for Beethoven (or vice versa)--or Indian raga, or gamelan, or qawwali, or African drumming, or bluegrass. Hell, how many of us here would enjoy reading a review of Chiastic by a die-hard house enthusiast? The point is that if you're lucky, the listener's "subjective experience alone" might result in an understanding and fair evaluation, but it can just as easily result in a profound misunderstanding, as (disastrously) when 19th-C. European colonizers reached the conclusion that indigenous African and Asian musics were "primitive" because those musics didn't follow the rules of European tonal music--and consequently *couldn't be real music*. Ouch!

quoted 5 lines Categorization is a thing the English language is supreme at and is one

> Categorization is a thing the English language is supreme at and is one > of its greatest limiting aspects, limiting our own expression in the > language.Instead of saying a piece of music is light like the clouds in > the sky, floating gently in and out of consciousness bringing light and > shade alternately.... for example, we can, and do, say... its ambient.

Hmmm... poetry is one thing, but not something I particularly want to have to decipher when I'm buying a CD! :) Maybe different ways of talking about music have different uses, none of which can completely replace the others.

quoted 1 line But.. this is samsara

> But.. this is samsara

So is music in general...! J ________ \ / | Bee women: "What kind of corn soldiers are you?" H. James Harkins | Arthur: "Umm, oh, er, we're, uh, we're colonels." jharkins@acpub.duke.edu | \/ | - from "The Tick," now on Comedy Central, 6PM M-F "If we keep our attention focused on the present, we can be sure of one thing, namely that whatever we are attending to in this moment will change..." -- Jon Kabat-Zinn

people's passion for supporting marginal electronic musics such as that released by skam, spymania, musik aus strom, worm interface, dot, suction, etc. etc. seems to have kicked into high gear within the last six months or so with forcefield, phinnweb, fresh's rephlex site, the new clear site, james' gescom and autechre discos and the proposed faq, the bochum welt site, etc. (there are many more i've forgotten) all proving the value of diy in contributing to the vitality of dance-based experimental electronic music and culture. the web, obviously, provides a rare opportunity for this, and many of these individuals have used it to an inspiring degree in providing comprehensive, well-compiled, well-designed and maintained informational resources about various different artists and labels. so much so, in fact, that it would be nice to maybe add a new catagory or two to the idm poll to reflect this. although most of what's discussed here seems to be of a more popular bent (big-name artists such as aphex twin, autechre, etc.) for some (such as myself) this is about the only place where i can learn about many of the smaller, more marginal artists that i am interested in, their releases, their histories, their other projects, etc. where else, for example, has anyone seen, say, a funkstorung review? q&a with global communication? a hab review? a reference to schematic or suction? roupe discussing the impetus behind his new album?...it's not my intention to turn this into a popularity contest, just to acknowledge the contributions of certain individuals to our collective passion for and appreciation of this music. the/se catagory/ies could be/include: best overall independent emusic resource best label resource (clear, skam, rephlex, etc.) best artist resource (squarepusher, bwelt, paradinas, etc.) best ezine (magic feet, forcefield, etc.) although i have a nervous feeling that this will tend to become just an adjunct to whoever gets artist of the year (if it's mu-ziq, the mu-ziq page will win; if its squarepusher, the squarepusher page; etc.) this will at least provide the opportunity to express appreciation for people who otherwise selflessly toil away in their little corner of fanaticism for the rest of the year. just an idea... sc

why categorize? ( i know i should probably elaborate but do i need too?)... tom w np: dark - tamna vodna On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:23:49 -0700 (PDT) scooper@best.com (Sean Cooper) writes:

quoted 66 lines people's passion for supporting marginal electronic musics such as

>people's passion for supporting marginal electronic musics such as >that >released by skam, spymania, musik aus strom, worm interface, dot, >suction, >etc. etc. seems to have kicked into high gear within the last six >months or >so with forcefield, phinnweb, fresh's rephlex site, the new clear >site, >james' gescom and autechre discos and the proposed faq, the bochum >welt >site, etc. (there are many more i've forgotten) all proving the value >of >diy in contributing to the vitality of dance-based experimental >electronic >music and culture. the web, obviously, provides a rare opportunity for >this, and many of these individuals have used it to an inspiring >degree in >providing comprehensive, well-compiled, well-designed and maintained >informational resources about various different artists and labels. > >so much so, in fact, that it would be nice to maybe add a new catagory >or >two to the idm poll to reflect this. although most of what's discussed >here >seems to be of a more popular bent (big-name artists such as aphex >twin, >autechre, etc.) for some (such as myself) this is about the only place >where i can learn about many of the smaller, more marginal artists >that i >am interested in, their releases, their histories, their other >projects, >etc. where else, for example, has anyone seen, say, a funkstorung >review? >q&a with global communication? a hab review? a reference to schematic >or >suction? roupe discussing the impetus behind his new album?...it's not >my >intention to turn this into a popularity contest, just to acknowledge >the >contributions of certain individuals to our collective passion for and >appreciation of this music. > >the/se catagory/ies could be/include: > >best overall independent emusic resource >best label resource (clear, skam, rephlex, etc.) >best artist resource (squarepusher, bwelt, paradinas, etc.) >best ezine (magic feet, forcefield, etc.) > >although i have a nervous feeling that this will tend to become just >an >adjunct to whoever gets artist of the year (if it's mu-ziq, the mu-ziq >page >will win; if its squarepusher, the squarepusher page; etc.) this will >at >least provide the opportunity to express appreciation for people who >otherwise selflessly toil away in their little corner of fanaticism >for the >rest of the year. > >just an idea... > >sc > > >

On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, thomas m weibrecht wrote: o}why categorize? i think you may have misunderstood. he is suggesting new *non-music* categories--categories for useful/interesting idm resources, not new musical sub-genres. the former i think is a good idea, the latter i agree is unnecessary. rs.

On Sunday, 13-Jul-97, ryan|b|shaw wrote [about Re: (idm) new catagory?]:

quoted 4 lines i think you may have misunderstood. he is suggesting new *non-music*

>i think you may have misunderstood. he is suggesting new *non-music* >categories--categories for useful/interesting idm resources, not new >musical sub-genres. the former i think is a good idea, the latter i agree >is unnecessary.

I dunno if this is related, but speaking of chart categories and charts in general, I am working on a web-based IDM chart. It will have all the standard things a chart has, top 10, top xx top blah. but the way it will work will be, ppl will come on and vote for their favorite tracks/albums/etc. or whatever, and then a CGI script will sort out the results into a nice neat results file that gets updated on the fly. there were some obstacles, I didn't have a place to put my cgi-bin's, but that's been solved.. Thanks to Emanuel Borsboom for the account and diskspace :) and 2nd obstacle, not too much of a big one.. I dunno how to code in Perl. but I hear that it's easier than the ARexx scripting language on Amiga (REXX on IBM) and stuff, so that's no problem, however: if anyone knows of any web-resources for Perl, please send me the info.. thanks, I may just go to the flea market and buy a book, but all I really need is a good list of commands with syntax and a short description. overall, a fairly working version of the IDM chart should be up in about a month. any comments/ideas are also welcome. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ , m7=

On Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:49:37 -0700 (PDT) ryan|b|shaw <rybesh@leland.stanford.edu> writes:

quoted 11 lines On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, thomas m weibrecht wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, thomas m weibrecht wrote: > >o}why categorize? > >i think you may have misunderstood. he is suggesting new *non-music* >categories--categories for useful/interesting idm resources, not new >musical sub-genres. the former i think is a good idea, the latter i >agree >is unnecessary. > >rs.

again, the question remains: why categorize? in any way shape or form? sorry 2 b difficult, tom w np: in the court of the crimson king (category?)

On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, thomas m weibrecht wrote: o} o}ryan|b|shaw writes: o}>i think you may have misunderstood. he is suggesting new *non-music* o}>categories--categories for useful/interesting idm resources, not new o}>musical sub-genres. the former i think is a good idea, the latter i o}>agree is unnecessary. o} o}again, the question remains: why categorize? in any way shape or form? in general, or in regard to the idm poll? the idm poll would be pretty useless were it not for categories. i suppose there could be just an "IDM's Favorite Things" list, with no categories, or even limits on size as long as we're breaking boundaries. then everyone could be treated to a huge file with everyone on the list's favorite records, books, rocks, people, flowers, abstract concepts...of course, it would be up to the individual to figure out if some particular item were flora, fauna, or rare 12"... i am glad for categorization in every shape and form every time i visit the library. categories become harmful only when they are treated as absolutes not subject to interpretation. for things like polls they provide useful guidelines as long as they aren't taken too seriously. r|s o}np: in the court of the crimson king (category: prog-rock) :}

quoted 13 lines o}why categorize?

> > > > >o}why categorize? > > > >i think you may have misunderstood. he is suggesting new *non-music* > >categories--categories for useful/interesting idm resources, not new > >musical sub-genres. the former i think is a good idea, the latter i > >agree > >is unnecessary. > > > >rs. > > again, the question remains: why categorize? in any way shape or form?

Cause we like to talk about things with other people. And when I ask somebody what is a party going to be like i'd rather they tell me techno, then "stuff sort of like that Aphex guy spins but not so much of those beats from that One Song with the 'Amen Brother' riff in it. labels is how we's communicate. I'm glad that each time I talk to someone I don't have to establish the semantics of all terms pertaining to our discussion.

quoted 6 lines sorry 2 b difficult,

> sorry 2 b difficult, > > tom w > > np: in the court of the crimson king (category?) >

freshie Paranoia: The choice of a Tech Generation http://silly.com/~tang

> again, the question remains: why categorize? in any way shape or form?

quoted 7 lines sorry 2 b difficult,

> > sorry 2 b difficult, > > tom w > > np: in the court of the crimson king (category?) >

I'm assuming you mean "Why categorize music" here(i haven't been watching this thread). If this is your question, the answer is easy. First example: i walk into a music store, and would like to find the new Scanner disc...where do i look? If there aren't any categories, i'm lost as all hell. Second Example: i like to listen to the ambient radio show on tuesday nights in montreal. Were there no categories to music, this show could not exist. Third Example: By not categorizing, you're lumping country music, classical music, r&b, and greek folk music in with idm, ambient, hardcore, house, and rap. This will not do, in my opinion! Hope my statements answered your question somewhat(i wasn't sure whether this was your question or not) but anyways, that's my take on it. I do agree though, that over-categorization DOES happen quite a bit. I like to stick to generalizations, but there is validity to many of the categories. Anyways, enough of this babble. Ali "It means we'll manage I'll master your language And in the meantime I'll create my own" (Tricky)

quoted 1 line I'm assuming you mean "Why categorize music" here(i haven't been

>I'm assuming you mean "Why categorize music" here(i haven't been

quoted 1 line watching this thread). If this is your question, the answer is easy.

>watching this thread). If this is your question, the answer is easy.

quoted 1 line First example: i walk into a music store, and would like to find the

>First example: i walk into a music store, and would like to find the

quoted 1 line new Scanner disc...where do i look? If there aren't any categories,

>new Scanner disc...where do i look? If there aren't any categories,

quoted 1 line i'm lost as all hell.

>i'm lost as all hell.

Let's see, Scanner...Starts with an S...

quoted 1 line Ali

> Ali

quoted 1 line "It means we'll manage

> "It means we'll manage

quoted 1 line I'll master your language

> I'll master your language

quoted 1 line And in the meantime

> And in the meantime

quoted 1 line I'll create my own" (Tricky)

> I'll create my own" (Tricky)

(blows(IMHO)) <fontfamily><param>Fixedsys</param><smaller> _ / \ /\ /__/ \ / \ \ / \AVIS \\\\ emailing from work. <underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>ravis1@mindspring.com </color></underline> <underline><color><param>0000,0000,fefe</param>http://www.mindspring.com/~ravis1/</color></underline></smaller></fontfamily>

quoted 7 lines I'm assuming you mean "Why categorize music" here(i haven't been

> >I'm assuming you mean "Why categorize music" here(i haven't been > >watching this thread). If this is your question, the answer is easy. > >First example: i walk into a music store, and would like to find the > >new Scanner disc...where do i look? If there aren't any categories, > >i'm lost as all hell. > Let's see, Scanner...Starts with an S... >

Ya ya, that was a stupid point on my part...however, in terms of categories in music stores, i rarely go in to look for once specific cd. In the ambient/idm genre, you sort of have to live with what they have, not what you want. If there was no "electronica" section in my favourite store, i would spend literally HOURS going through ALL the music in the store to find the few electronica cd's that they have. Do you not agree? Ali "It means we'll manage I'll master your language And in the meantime I'll create my own" (Tricky)

On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:29:35 -0400 "brian j tang" <fafol@appleby.com> writes:

quoted 32 lines o}why categorize?

>> >> > >> >o}why categorize? >> > >> >i think you may have misunderstood. he is suggesting new >*non-music* >> >categories--categories for useful/interesting idm resources, not >new >> >musical sub-genres. the former i think is a good idea, the latter >i >> >agree >> >is unnecessary. >> > >> >rs. >> >> again, the question remains: why categorize? in any way shape or >form? > >Cause we like to talk about things with other people. And when I ask >somebody what is a party going to be like i'd rather they tell me >techno, then "stuff sort of like that Aphex guy spins but not so much >of those beats from that One Song with the 'Amen Brother' riff in it. > >labels is how we's communicate. I'm glad that each time I talk to >someone I don't have to establish the semantics of all terms >pertaining to our discussion. > >> sorry 2 b difficult, >> >> tom w >> >> np: in the court of the crimson king (category?)

all u people who wrote are correct...i was minimalistically ranting against the whole idea of creating sub-genres and categories just so we can pidgeon hole things that are best left alone....i think i was listening to aube when i wrote the original and was in a anarchic coma.... tom w np: eno - the drop

quoted 4 lines freshie

>freshie >Paranoia: The choice of a Tech Generation >http://silly.com/~tang >