179,854Messages
9,130Senders
30Years
342mboxes

← archive index

Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing (addition)

7 messages · 4 participants · spans 2 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 3 subjects: efa's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing · efa's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing (addition) · rope in hongkong
2004-03-07 19:31__JRP [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
├─ 2004-03-07 21:41Sara and Brandon Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
│ ├─ 2004-03-07 21:34__JRP Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
│ └─ 2004-03-08 22:26wil maurer Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
│ └─ 2004-03-08 22:35wil maurer Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing (addition)
└─ 2004-03-09 06:01John von Seggern Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
└─ 2004-03-09 18:40__JRP [idm] Re: rope in hongkong
expand allcollapse allclick any summary to toggle that message
2004-03-07 19:31__JRPhi all, i didn#t follow the list's discussion on EFA's bankruptcy before, so please excuse
From:
__JRP
To:
IDM LIST
Date:
Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:31:41 +0200
Subject:
[idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
permalink · <BC71453C.5F6A%jayrope@kliklak.net>
hi all, i didn#t follow the list's discussion on EFA's bankruptcy before, so please excuse me for just flying in like that: As a (sort of non-IDM, but what the heck) musician, i am dealing with labels, which are affected fatally by this bankruptcy. EFA was the biggest independent music distribution in Germany, Swiss and Austria i believe. To my knowledge EFA has tried up to the last minute to pay at least part of the depts back to their clients, the labels, many of which are very small and will probably simply die still, from the remaining financial loss thru this bankruptcy. This is fact now, but i can#t help thinking about the reasons for this desaster, of course. After two weeks of discussing this with friends and affected musicians, labelmates etc there#s one major issue, that seems to come up oftenly: the ethics of filesharing. filesharing is, to anyone else but major label employees ;-), the most wonderful way to spread young, new music as wide as possible. almost everyone involved is benefitting from it, peopel can find new music easily and listen to it without being faked into shiny high prized meaningless mainstream boredom again. and young artists can travel and have an audience anywhere without ever having to think about the expenses of a promotion campaign in printed medie, tv or cinemas. i personally benefitted from that aswell. still there is an issue, that arose out of this great nonmaterial freedom of music/culture exchange, and it might even be, that this issue is most obvious in central europe, which has been traditionally flooded with non localized product for quite a bit. it seems, that with all the sharing of everything (which of course strongly inclines the refusal of high budget plastic product campaigns - yeah! let them go under!!) people stooped thinking about labels and musicians needing a certain minimum to keep on working. it seems that it might be time to get to an outspoken ethics of filesharing, an overthinking of whom do i want to support, when and why do i share and whom do i want to show my refusal. certainly it makes sense to share robin williams albums ;-) - but does it make sense to share to the max - for instance - low res albums, without having the slightest will to at least sort of donate what we have to a small artist like him? luckily i meet more and more people who are willing to support their own unkown artists. so it seems that there might be a time of conciously wanted balance comin gup. at least i hope so. correct me and discuss me, please - i#d be very interested in list members' thoughts about this. jayrope | berlin On 3/7/04 21:25 PM, "idm-digest-help@hyperreal.org" wrote:
quoted 1 line RE: [idm] EFA files for bankruptcy> RE: [idm] EFA files for bankruptcy
Best greets from Berlin! jayrope |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| all activities http://www.kliklak.net jukebox http://www.kliklak.net/mp3stream |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2004-03-07 21:41Sara and BrandonReading over this, I am ashaimed at how robotic I sound. Sorry in advance..... Generally s
From:
Sara and Brandon
To:
__JRP , IDM LIST
Date:
Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:41:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
Reply to:
[idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
permalink · <20040307214153.249.qmail@web12504.mail.yahoo.com>
Reading over this, I am ashaimed at how robotic I sound. Sorry in advance..... Generally speaking, about everything I've bought over the last three years I've downloaded first. I usually do keep a backup copy of most of what I buy. If you want a hard core "ethical" response: I feel there is nothing ethically wrong with someone downloading an album provided it doesn't influence the support they would or would not have given to the production of the work. I also tend to believe it is wrong to assume, at face value, that anyone downloading an album is stealing. To me, uh....philosophically speaking, borrowing a friends CD and downloading a digital representation of the music contained on that CD can be of equal ethical weight provided that (a) the borrower does not make a duplicate of the work in place of paying for the work before returning the album; (b) the downloader does not keep the mp3s in place of paying for the work, and (c) unless the work was purchased, the downloader must delete the files within a reasonable period of time. The common strain you'll notice with all of my statements is that the decisions are all local to the consumer, which is a major threat to the strictly "business interested" - which you'll notice if you explore the massive lawsuits the RIAA has produced, which in my opinion are highly unethical as, (1) as far as I'm aware based on what I've read about their conduct, there is no mechanism in their process to ensure they're not targeting what I've called group c, not to mention that members of this group also might own the work and as far as sharing with others; (2) the guilt should not rest on the "sharer" as by the nature of the exchange of peer to peer property there is no way to possibly know if the downloader will treat the intellectual property in good faith; and (3) the amounts of money they are seeking are entirely off base as, concerning intellectual property, the loss of capitol is not directly related to the experience of downloading as there is no way an outside party can possibly know if the downloader was intending to buy the product to begin with. The most difficult thing are cases where only half the the tracks are great and the other half aren't worth it. I wouldn't buy the release as a whole, but I would also not want to give the other music up. In the past, I did act in an "unethical" fashion in that I did keep the tracks I liked as there was no alternative. On the upside, more and more options are available to counter this. With bleep.com for example, there is no reasonable way anyone couldn't support them based on their attraction to only one or two great tracks. You can buy the one or two great tracks, or 8 of 15 or 14 of 15. The bottom line, I don't believe that intellectual property and capitalism fit together firmly. There is a sort of fuzzy relationship, but the success of that relationship over the course of major technological advances was largely due to strict (and in the case of the RIAA lawsuits - insanely heavy handed) laws to offset the natural urge to explore what is available. At the heart of it all I don't think any method which requires excessive laws and regulations is healthy. Is it practical? No. Is it "fair"? Not really. It is reality? I think so. Will some more open alternative work in fairness to everyone? I believe eventually, yes. Certainly not in this climate though. Also, I tend to like vinyl, and as far as I know, you can't p2p that. Brandon
quoted 31 lines certainly it makes sense to share robin williams> certainly it makes sense to share robin williams > albums ;-) - but does it > make sense to share to the max - for instance - low > res albums, without > having the slightest will to at least sort of donate > what we have to a small > artist like him? luckily i meet more and more people > who are willing to > support their own unkown artists. so it seems that > there might be a time of > conciously wanted balance comin gup. at least i hope > so. > > correct me and discuss me, please - i#d be very > interested in list members' > thoughts about this. > > jayrope |?berlin > > On 3/7/04 21:25 PM, "idm-digest-help@hyperreal.org" > wrote: > > > RE: [idm] EFA files for bankruptcy > > > Best greets from Berlin! > > > jayrope > >
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
quoted 5 lines all activities ht> > all activities http://www.kliklak.net > jukebox http://www.kliklak.net/mp3stream > >
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
quoted 4 lines> > > >
---------------------------------------------------------------------
quoted 5 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > idm-help@hyperreal.org >
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2004-03-07 21:34__JRPbrandon, nice analysis. i am completely with you. and i guess, that i am acting the same.
From:
__JRP
To:
Sara and Brandon , IDM LIST
Date:
Sun, 07 Mar 2004 23:34:19 +0200
Subject:
Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
Reply to:
Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
permalink · <BC7161FA.5F77%jayrope@kliklak.net>
brandon, nice analysis. i am completely with you. and i guess, that i am acting the same. i do download, and i oftenly do not buy the albums i get - i don#t even listen to them again. nice thing about p2p data: can be deleted. but thats a normal case, isn#t it? what i will miss when EFA is gone, is the record store at the corner, which will probably suffer from that breakdown harshly itself - since the small business will not be able to afford oversea shipping costs for the small quantities they actually do sell of specialized records such as we buy them. that means i will loose expertise in my neighbourhood. i will have to rely more on researching all the necessary info about new music myself, whereas before i could just trust the dj-store guy, who was pleasantly supplied with all albums necessary by EFA, for instance. okay, some smaller comanies will try to fill the gap - apart from the fact, that a few hundred mini labels will go under with EFA aswell... regarding the p2p discussion i can only say, that people tend to overreact towards praising p2p inventions sometimes, especially when oneself makes an attempt towards a tiny little bit of a fairness discussion. people over here automatically feel provoked towards repeating, that RIAA (which we don#t have here, but sthg similar...) of course acts unethical. but they are not even thinking asbout buying stuff they really like. because they can get it fro free anyways. (RIAA and alike: shall go under/be ignored to its own death! not the slightest doubt about that.) during my last stay in the US in last autumn i noticed, that people i met and discussed with there were actually much more aware of the ethics or non-ethics involved in this matter. almost everyone was willing to buy a product he/she liked, even in parts/downloadable, and almost no one i met showed interest in buying complete albums with one good track on. of course not! times for that type of fake are definately over 8) over here people buy tons of playstic product still, and the hysterical discussions on the p2p lovers side show, that we're still in the age of escaping controller controlled music releases. ... tradidional distribution might just cost too much and it takes it too long to ship specialized product to the customer. this, as good as it is on the one hand, will still on the other hand let my informant at the dj-corner-store suffer... thanx for detailed insight, brandon. i guess it needs a load of people with a most complete insight on this, then any individual would make wise decisions. even if one has to wait a few days for that "the books" album... jayrope | berlin On 3/7/04 23:41 PM, "Sara and Brandon" wrote:
quoted 74 lines Reading over this, I am ashaimed at how robotic I> Reading over this, I am ashaimed at how robotic I > sound. Sorry in advance..... > > Generally speaking, about everything I've bought over > the last three years I've downloaded first. I usually > do keep a backup copy of most of what I buy. > If you want a hard core "ethical" response: I feel > there is nothing ethically wrong with someone > downloading an album provided it doesn't influence the > support they would or would not have given to the > production of the work. I also tend to believe it is > wrong to assume, at face value, that anyone > downloading an album is stealing. To me, > uh....philosophically speaking, borrowing a friends CD > and downloading a digital representation of the music > contained on that CD can be of equal ethical weight > provided that (a) the borrower does not make a > duplicate of the work in place of paying for the work > before returning the album; (b) the downloader does > not keep the mp3s in place of paying for the work, and > (c) unless the work was purchased, the downloader must > delete the files within a reasonable period of time. > The common strain you'll notice with all of my > statements is that the decisions are all local to the > consumer, which is a major threat to the strictly > "business interested" - which you'll notice if you > explore the massive lawsuits the RIAA has produced, > which in my opinion are highly unethical as, (1) as > far as I'm aware based on what I've read about their > conduct, there is no mechanism in their process to > ensure they're not targeting what I've called group c, > not to mention that members of this group also might > own the work and as far as sharing with others; (2) > the guilt should not rest on the "sharer" as by the > nature of the exchange of peer to peer property there > is no way to possibly know if the downloader will > treat the intellectual property in good faith; and (3) > the amounts of money they are seeking are entirely off > base as, concerning intellectual property, the loss of > capitol is not directly related to the experience of > downloading as there is no way an outside party can > possibly know if the downloader was intending to buy > the product to begin with. > The most difficult thing are cases where only half the > the tracks are great and the other half aren't worth > it. I wouldn't buy the release as a whole, but I > would also not want to give the other music up. In > the past, I did act in an "unethical" fashion in that > I did keep the tracks I liked as there was no > alternative. On the upside, more and more options are > available to counter this. With bleep.com for > example, there is no reasonable way anyone couldn't > support them based on their attraction to only one or > two great tracks. You can buy the one or two great > tracks, or 8 of 15 or 14 of 15. > The bottom line, I don't believe that intellectual > property and capitalism fit together firmly. There is > a sort of fuzzy relationship, but the success of that > relationship over the course of major technological > advances was largely due to strict (and in the case of > the RIAA lawsuits - insanely heavy handed) laws to > offset the natural urge to explore what is available. > At the heart of it all I don't think any method which > requires excessive laws and regulations is healthy. > Is it practical? No. Is it "fair"? Not really. It > is reality? I think so. Will some more open > alternative work in fairness to everyone? I believe > eventually, yes. Certainly not in this climate > though. > Also, I tend to like vinyl, and as far as I know, you > can't p2p that. > > Brandon >
Best greets from Berlin! jayrope |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| all activities http://www.kliklak.net jukebox http://www.kliklak.net/mp3stream |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2004-03-08 22:26wil maurerI probably don't buy even half of what I download - to tell the truth, my cd purchases are
From:
wil maurer
To:
Date:
Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:26:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
Reply to:
Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
permalink · <20040308222645.33258.qmail@web14905.mail.yahoo.com>
I probably don't buy even half of what I download - to tell the truth, my cd purchases are geared towards what I can't download (for instance the SA Smash album on Def Jux - if any cd stores in my town actually stocked it, i'd actually buy the cd, because I can't find it for download) but my vinyl purchases are almost always the result of mp3s i've downloaded. I first got introduced to the whole German electronic pop scene (for lack of a better thing to call it) when I downloaded ms john soda, lali puna, and christian kleine's albums on carracho. now I own almost all of their records - and a fat stack of stuff from the morr music and city centre offices labels - on vinyl. I download all sorts of stuff, buy the ones I want to use in my dj sets, and mostly buy cds that I can't get online. if it weren't for the internet - and more specifically the carracho servers and soulseek channels I frequent - then my musical scope would be severely stunted, and honestly i'd just be picking up the interesting low-pressing downtempo records that turntablelab stocks. through the magic of filesharing, i've been exposed to all sorts of interesting musics that I wouldn't normally have access to, as a consumer. hopefully by the end of the year i'll have started up my own record label. i've already bought some webspace, and before too long i'll have a site up where people can download tracks and mixtapes from myself and other artists for free. The plan, at least for my releases, is to put out a series of 6-track eps, all dowloadable for free, and then put out the best 6 tracks on a 12". Then we'll put out a remix white label (because people love those) and another 12" of collaborations with different artists. eventually, we'll put out a cd of the 12" releases a la Immediate Action, which hopefully will garner some notice from the quality 12"s we put out. modest plans. I understand that this probably isn't the best time to start up a record label, but I think that if we have very specific goals and don't get overambitious, we stand a chance of staying around for a while, continuing to put out quality records. as for the free mp3 downloads, the way I figure it is that we'll sort of follow the model of anime fansub groups - that is, tracks that we put up will be available until they are either licensed or a commercial release has been put out. I want to be able to provide a good amount of free content without shooting myself in the foot, business-wise. also, i've been thinking that we could release all of our retail cds as mixtapes (either live or studio-produced) to make things more inconvienent for downloaders and encourage people to actually purchase the cd. nothing bothers me more than seeing The idea is to push vinyl sales - because I think that vinyl is still extremely important, as djs are probably the best advertisers a label can get. Then again, my goal here is not ultimately to start a thriving commercial enterprise, but rather to (hopefully) attract some attention to the music we're producing and maybe make some spare change at the same time. anyway, I guess what i'm saying is that in order for the music industry, or for musicians and record companies to be able to turn a profit, they need to have a better understanding of their customers' buying habits, and how the internet has changed the way people listen to and purchase music. my current plan is kind of based on the assumption that i'm not a unique individual and that there are enough people out there with buying habits like mine to be able to support this sort of venture, and since we're talking record pressings of 500-700 copies, it's not like there's a lot of capital at risk here. hopefully we'll get a chance to put out some memorable records... -Wil M. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2004-03-08 22:35wil maurerleft a sentence fragment hanging.. --- wil maurer <battleforitaly@yahoo.com> wrote: also,
From:
wil maurer
To:
Date:
Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:35:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing (addition)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
permalink · <20040308223515.86171.qmail@web14916.mail.yahoo.com>
left a sentence fragment hanging.. --- wil maurer <battleforitaly@yahoo.com> wrote: also, i've been thinking that we could release all of our retail cds as mixtapes (either live or studio-produced) to make things more inconvienent for downloaders and encourage people to actually purchase the cd. nothing bothers me more than seeing --- ...seeing a really good mixtape ripped to mp3 in individual tracks, so that the pauses inherent in the mp3 format mess up the flow of the mix. of course, people could always rip the whole cd as a single mp3, but i've noticed that most people don't do this... -Wil M. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2004-03-09 06:01John von SeggernJay -- your sentiment is noble but no amount of pondering the ethics of filesharing is goi
From:
John von Seggern
To:
__JRP , IDM LIST
Date:
Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:01:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
Reply to:
[idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
permalink · <20040309060100.94757.qmail@web40609.mail.yahoo.com>
Jay -- your sentiment is noble but no amount of pondering the ethics of filesharing is going to make much difference in terms of rewarding musicians for their art. Govt action and changes in the copyright system are the only things that can realistically get musicians paid in this new era, we have got to update our concepts to a new era in which anything that can be digitized can be endlessly and perfectly copied. BTW I saw you play in Hong Kong at the Berlin Festival, nice set man! (That was you right?) John --- __JRP <jayrope@kliklak.net> wrote:
quoted 38 lines it seems that> it seems that > it might be time to get > to an outspoken ethics of filesharing, an > overthinking of whom do i want to > support, when and why do i share and whom do i want > to show my refusal. > > certainly it makes sense to share robin williams > albums ;-) - but does it > make sense to share to the max - for instance - low > res albums, without > having the slightest will to at least sort of donate > what we have to a small > artist like him? luckily i meet more and more people > who are willing to > support their own unkown artists. so it seems that > there might be a time of > conciously wanted balance comin gup. at least i hope > so. > > correct me and discuss me, please - i#d be very > interested in list members' > thoughts about this. > > jayrope | berlin > > On 3/7/04 21:25 PM, "idm-digest-help@hyperreal.org" > wrote: > > > RE: [idm] EFA files for bankruptcy > > > Best greets from Berlin! > > > jayrope > >
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
quoted 5 lines all activities ht> > all activities http://www.kliklak.net > jukebox http://www.kliklak.net/mp3stream > >
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
quoted 4 lines> > > >
---------------------------------------------------------------------
quoted 5 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > idm-help@hyperreal.org >
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2004-03-09 18:40__JRPJohn, i remember we had mailed a few years before, huh? 8) pleasure! yeah i am always into
From:
__JRP
To:
, IDM LIST
Date:
Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:40:11 +0200
Subject:
[idm] Re: rope in hongkong
Reply to:
Re: [idm] EFA's bankruptcy/ missing ethics of filesharing
permalink · <BC73DC2A.603A%jayrope@kliklak.net>
John, i remember we had mailed a few years before, huh? 8) pleasure! yeah i am always into honesty, even honest disgust. hehe. of course ethical thinking won#t make a difference, thge percentage of "grabbers" is just too high to be conquered, but i certainly noticed, that ethical acting helps a little bit 8) (so i will go out now and by the book's two albums finally ))) best from berlin jayrope p.s.: and thanx for the compliment, yeah that was me and my former drummer nico lippolis as "rope" in hong kong at the vision festival (in 2000 i believe) . quite a while ago now, actually. that reminds me of: we were collaborating onstage with a band or project from hoingkong that night, which we had contacted beforehand via the promoter who brought us to hobngkong, danielle de piciotto. do you remember what this band's/project's name was? i really liked their stuff and the only thing i remember, too, is that one of the guy's name was kim... and it was warm and rainy. there#s a bunch of live recordings of recent solo shows of mine at http://www.kliklak.net/mp3stream just in case - they are pretty similar to what we did in hongkong actually. On 3/9/04 08:01 AM, "John von Seggern" wrote:
quoted 13 lines Jay -- your sentiment is noble but no amount of> Jay -- your sentiment is noble but no amount of > pondering the ethics of filesharing is going to make > much difference in terms of rewarding musicians for > their art. Govt action and changes in the copyright > system are the only things that can realistically get > musicians paid in this new era, we have got to update > our concepts to a new era in which anything that can > be digitized can be endlessly and perfectly copied. > > BTW I saw you play in Hong Kong at the Berlin > Festival, nice set man! (That was you right?) > > John
Best greets from Berlin! jayrope |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| all activities http://www.kliklak.net jukebox http://www.kliklak.net/mp3stream |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org