IDM Mailing Archive

someone mentioned the plaid show as their best live performance, and it makes me wonder what peoples' definition of "live performance" is. in my view, performance is the entire package, and it's done for an actively listening audience, which in turn give energy back to the performer. there is a very important - indeed critical - relationship here. if the performers don't acknowledge that they are there to perform and have an audience, that relationship fails to develop. plaid does not perform. they sit behind their laptops and make cool music while some guy throws video on the screen (i too saw plaid both for the last two tours, and was pretty put out that they used the same setup (and miserable DJ) for both). 80% of the electronica shows i've seen are like this, and that's probably being generous. i was playing a show at the mca in chicago, and the folks on before me finished and came off stage and started saying how they wished that they were facing the screen *with their backs to the audience* so they could see the visuals. then one of them commented that she preferred to be off to the side of the stage, and another guy mentioned he'd rather be completely offstage. the best live *performances* i've seen tend not to be electronica, and unsurprisingly so: laurie anderson, kaffe mathews, joe mcphee, pauline oliveros, phish, frank zappa, squirrel nut zippers, marc ribot w/ mike patton, john zorn's masada, shelly hirsch... one of my favorites was the violent femmes. granted i haven't seen some of the more active electronica folk live (yet... twine will be up performing a show with me, greg davis, m.mercer and warmdesk later this month), but i bet if i concentrated on doing so, i'd be done in a month. :) survival of electronica doesn't mean anything, every style of music must have exemplary performers to keep it alive. productions which use video and other eye-candy to supplant the interaction of live performers are, in my book, not live performances. this is much much longer than i had planned to write, but it's a topic which i think deserves much attention by those who really want to express themselves on stage and *perform* for an audience. m craque dot net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

plaid may sit behind their laptops, but they make great music and it can be a great experience to watch them do it live. In the good old days before we had to look at a glowing grey titanium apple blocking artists' faces during every single damned electronica show, I had an awesome time watching plaid do a super-long rendition of the 45 second 'Lat' off of Not For Threes. My favorite 45 seconds on the album, into a full song. It was awesome, and one of the best times I had watching live music get done ( it was at one of those warp shows in new york, after blech, before nesh... byzar and autechre was there, big warehouse, can't remember the name). Now maybe it would've been just as satisfying had this long Lat been released as some B-side, but the surprise of hearing it, with an appreciative crowd, seeing them groove up there doing it, was awesome. So they're tweaking knobs on stage, at worst looking busy. That's an expression as qualifying of 'performance' as any show I've seen. -squiddity ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Ross Davis" <regis@sounding.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 10:10 AM Subject: [idm] performing

quoted 1 line someone mentioned the plaid show as their best live performance, and it

> someone mentioned the plaid show as their best live performance, and it

makes

quoted 3 lines me wonder what peoples' definition of "live performance" is.

> me wonder what peoples' definition of "live performance" is. > > in my view, performance is the entire package, and it's done for an

actively

quoted 2 lines listening audience, which in turn give energy back to the performer. there

> listening audience, which in turn give energy back to the performer. there > is a very important - indeed critical - relationship here. if the

performers

quoted 1 line don't acknowledge that they are there to perform and have an audience,

> don't acknowledge that they are there to perform and have an audience,

that

quoted 42 lines relationship fails to develop.

> relationship fails to develop. > > plaid does not perform. they sit behind their laptops and make cool music > while some guy throws video on the screen (i too saw plaid both for the > last two tours, and was pretty put out that they used the same setup (and > miserable DJ) for both). 80% of the electronica shows i've seen are like > this, and that's probably being generous. > > i was playing a show at the mca in chicago, and the folks on before me > finished and came off stage and started saying how they wished that they > were facing the screen *with their backs to the audience* so they could > see the visuals. then one of them commented that she preferred to be off > to the side of the stage, and another guy mentioned he'd rather be > completely offstage. > > the best live *performances* i've seen tend not to be electronica, and > unsurprisingly so: laurie anderson, kaffe mathews, joe mcphee, pauline > oliveros, phish, frank zappa, squirrel nut zippers, marc ribot w/ mike > patton, john zorn's masada, shelly hirsch... one of my favorites was > the violent femmes. granted i haven't seen some of the more active > electronica folk live (yet... twine will be up performing a show with me, > greg davis, m.mercer and warmdesk later this month), but i bet if i > concentrated on doing so, i'd be done in a month. :) > > survival of electronica doesn't mean anything, every style of music must > have exemplary performers to keep it alive. productions which use video > and other eye-candy to supplant the interaction of live performers are, > in my book, not live performances. > > this is much much longer than i had planned to write, but it's a topic > which i think deserves much attention by those who really want to express > themselves on stage and *perform* for an audience. > > m > craque > dot > net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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Soo ooooo how many times a week does this list talk about "live" vs. "dead" performances (out of curiosity, being I'm new :) It seems as if any performing without shaking arms and/or booty is frowned upon? Or is it the "my brain is bigger than yours" discussion? I must be one of these nuts who finds the term IDM amusing, and still enjoys music despit the time signature if its interesting enough? :) (gasp! even 4/4) Are we trying to pinpoint at what point someone who makes tunes is lesser of a human being if they can't fully recreate them in a completely different manner on stage every night while touring? ;))))))))))))) concrete cookie --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines It seems as if any performing without shaking arms and/or booty is frowned

> It seems as if any performing without shaking arms and/or booty is frowned > upon? Or is it the "my brain is bigger than yours" discussion?

No, it's the whether I sweat or not discussion. I do not sweat for Plaid, Takemura or Cornershop. I sweat for the Rye Coalition and Richard Devine and a number of local DC rock acts. Put it this way: If the performer ends up with a stained shirt, it's a show. Otherwise, I'm gonna end up sitting in the back getting surly, and that's not a show. That's arrogance on the part of the performer which I will not stand. At least pretend you give a shit about the crowd and the music that you're 'performing'. I pay good money and I expect to get it back in effort/charisma on the part of the artist(s). No matter the genre.

quoted 3 lines I must be one of these nuts who finds the term IDM amusing, and still enjoys

> I must be one of these nuts who finds the term IDM amusing, and still enjoys > music despit the time signature if its interesting enough? :) (gasp! even > 4/4)

This Wedensday, or Thursday, depending on time zone, I wrote a tune that has 4 bars of 6 and 4 bars of 4, in a loop (disco beat). I'm listening to it as we speak. I impress myself quite easily at times. Check into the Dave Brubeck clinic for cleverness rehab. Tom --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

--- Thomas Millar <tmillar@comcast.net> wrote:

quoted 6 lines At least pretend you give a shit about the crowd and

> At least pretend you give a shit about the crowd and > the music that you're > 'performing'. I pay good money and I expect to get > it back in > effort/charisma on the part of the artist(s). No > matter the genre.

ok... i didn't want to contribute to this thread but here goes nothing. ok... thomas (and all other haterz), you're going to a show to see a musician. the musicians obligation ends after he/she gives you music. you see, that's what a musician does, makes, presents, and performs (in whatever fashion he/she may choose) the music. when you have a plumber come to fix your plumbing and *gasp* all he does is fix your plumbing, do you find yourself saying, "well, that wasn't very interesting. i don't feel like i got my money's worth. i expected i'd get my money back with a charismatic display of his skills." no, you don't. because you're not /that/ crazy. so, if you don't find yourself enjoying laptop shows, all you have to do is not go to them... all of you people who say "i could have just sat at home and listened to the cd", that's great, maybe you should do that so we don't have to listen to your whining about it. if you really want to get all the bang you can get for your buck, go to the circus... music made on a computer often must be performed on a computer... here's an exercise i want you to try: sit your family, friends and neighbors near your computer, now do stuff with your computer while trying to amuse your audience. it didn't work, did it? you don't have to stare at the stage. gregory ===== //the fawn// performing live at the lab in costa mesa 09/04/02//////?/ 0123456789!@#$%^&*()_+ glitchitty-poppy-catch-all-phrase- turning-indie-tech *from the people who put the sty in style __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 6 lines when you have a plumber come to fix your plumbing and

> when you have a plumber come to fix your plumbing and > *gasp* all he does is fix your plumbing, do you find > yourself saying, "well, that wasn't very interesting. > i don't feel like i got my money's worth. i expected > i'd get my money back with a charismatic display of > his skills."

Wow. If I had ever imagined I'd meet such an asshole, someone who would compare musicians to plumbers, I'd never have joined this list in the first place, five years ago. Your concepts of music and performance vs. mine obviously don't mesh very well. I'm going to put mine aside, assume that our differences are subjective, and leave it at that. Tom --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 11 lines Wow. If I had ever imagined I'd meet such an

> Wow. If I had ever imagined I'd meet such an > asshole, someone who would > compare musicians to plumbers, I'd never have joined > this list in the first > place, five years ago. > > Your concepts of music and performance vs. mine > obviously don't mesh very > well. I'm going to put mine aside, assume that our > differences are > subjective, and leave it at that.

they both fulfill jobs. they are both humans. there exists no hierarchy wherein the esteem of some highfalutin artist ought to be more valued than a plumber. if someone breaks my stereo i can sing, but take running water away, and... but i suppose i'm getting a little carried away with an admittedly weak analogy, still.... and we're both here on this list thomas, so i reckon that at least in some small way we probably enjoy music and conceive of it in a somewhat similar fashion. sorry if you think i'm an asshole, i just find it irritating that people expect musicians to behave like organ grinder's monkeys. gregory ===== //the fawn// performing live at the lab in costa mesa 09/04/02//////?/ 0123456789!@#$%^&*()_+ glitchitty-poppy-catch-all-phrase- turning-indie-tech *from the people who put the sty in style __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 6.14 -0400 8/17/02, Thomas Millar wrote:

quoted 3 lines Wow. If I had ever imagined I'd meet such an asshole, someone who would

>Wow. If I had ever imagined I'd meet such an asshole, someone who would >compare musicians to plumbers, I'd never have joined this list in the first >place, five years ago.

You know, this comment helps confirm my suspicion that a lot of "avant-garde" or "intelligent" musicians are in it, to a degree, to feel important about themselves :) It's also like saying the digital sweatshop workers halfway around the world who built the computer you compose on are less important than the musicians who use those computers. Mine was made in Taiwan. How about yours? More to the point, you couldn't do your work without the working class, whom we dare not compare to musicians. Hm. Or, as WC Fields put it, "The arguments are so petty because the stakes are so low."

quoted 3 lines Your concepts of music and performance vs. mine obviously don't mesh very

>Your concepts of music and performance vs. mine obviously don't mesh very >well. I'm going to put mine aside, assume that our differences are >subjective, and leave it at that.

Well, it *is* subjective. It also has to do with the expectations you bring to a performance -- the same reason why John Cage was so controversial. People expected music to be something other than what he was doing. Saying "That isn't a performance" ends the discussion right there. Saying "That isn't what I pay to see in a performance" is at least more truthful. To me, a more interesting approach would be to examine how the social space of a laptop performance differs from the social space of a rock show -- preferably without value judgments, but if you must evaluate, then evaluate on the basis of what is gained or lost in each venue. Interesting work has been done, for instance, on the sociology of the rave scene. James -- ______ | "To be thoroughly lazy is a tough \ / H. James Harkins | job, but somebody has to do it. \ / jamshark70@yahoo.com | Industrious people build industry. \/ | Lazy people build civilization." | -- Kazuaki Tanahashi http://www.duke.edu/~jharkins "Never does hatred cease by hating in return; only through love can hatred come to an end. Victory breeds hatred; the conquered dwell in sorrow and resentment. They who give up all thought of victory or defeat may be calm and live happily at peace." -- Dhammapada --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 7 lines ok... thomas (and all other haterz), you're going

> >ok... thomas (and all other haterz), you're going >to a show to see a musician. the musicians obligation >ends after he/she gives you music. you see, that's >what a musician does, makes, presents, and performs >(in >whatever fashion he/she may choose) the music.

finally somebody talks sense in this thread...

quoted 6 lines so, if you don't find yourself enjoying laptop shows,

>so, if you don't find yourself enjoying laptop shows, >all you have to do is not go to them... all of you >people who say "i could have just sat at home and >listened to the cd", that's great, maybe you should do >that so we don't have to listen to your whining about >it.

as far as i see it, there are musicians, and there are entertainers... i would count most laptop artists to the first species, the second species tends to produce monsters like bitchney's rear, etc. those focus on muzak AND (even more about the) performance... so i WOULD expect bitchney to bring on a performance, but i really do not need it with serious musicians. i hope they concentrate on the music they make, and not on some nonsense posing... ... and to those who say, they can just listen to the cd at home: i doubt many of you can listen as loud at home, as they can in a club. and getting the music at great volume on a great pa definately differs from home listening... even if the music is completely the same as on cd... my 2€ cent(TM), hidari ~~~~~~~pudotion...it's like pudding and lotion~~~~~~~ hidari@gmx.net http://listen.to/hidari (now features direct mp3 downloads) http://pw-site.tripod.com/ http://www.stiege44.com/ (now features direct mp3 downloads) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Im getting started in the electro music arena, and am looking to make some purchases, as well as learn how to use the stuff I already have better. I have a copy of reaktor on a mac G3 powerbook, an mpc 200 xl, more records and Cds than I know what to do with. any suggestions for recording/sequencing programs, or other beatmaking/texture generating goodies? (interested in broken beat, as well as downtempo/ambient/funk....kinda translating P-Funk's "Maggot Brain" into the digital realm -- also play guitar bass and keys). Also, any suggestions for websites, instructional material, etc.? t --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 9 lines when you have a plumber come to fix your plumbing and

> > when you have a plumber come to fix your plumbing and > > *gasp* all he does is fix your plumbing, do you find > > yourself saying, "well, that wasn't very interesting. > > i don't feel like i got my money's worth. i expected > > i'd get my money back with a charismatic display of > > his skills." > > Wow. If I had ever imagined I'd meet such an asshole, someone who would > compare musicians to plumbers, I'd never have joined this list in the

first

quoted 5 lines place, five years ago.

> place, five years ago. > > Your concepts of music and performance vs. mine obviously don't mesh very > well. I'm going to put mine aside, assume that our differences are > subjective, and leave it at that.

You're not exactly mister Sunshine yourself, kiddo. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org