IDM Mailing Archive

From: (Greg Eden) Subject: Re: (idm) underground v mainstream On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:49:53 -0800, 4th World wrote:

quoted 5 lines 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black

>>2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black >> pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been >> ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , >> as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face >> america will by it

quoted 4 lines none of the above have ever made any pop music. so they are not

>none of the above have ever made any pop music. so they are not >popular acts. >the prodigy and the chemical brothers and even to some degree orbital >make pop music. so they are popular acts.

the chemical brothers , orbital - pop music, get a grip so any artist who gets into the charts could be designated as pop music because they are *popular*, irrespective of their generic style of music, what about all the early warp acts like LFO that got in the charts - are they 'pop music' From: Prymal <primal@interaccess.com> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, sm@4thWorld wrote:

quoted 5 lines 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black

>> 2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black >> pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been >> ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , >> as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face >> america will by it

quoted 3 lines oh maaaaaahn! get a clue!! the reason why craig, et al. were overlooked

>oh maaaaaahn! get a clue!! the reason why craig, et al. were overlooked >was because the style of music was not popular at the time, not the color >of their skin.

nah -, take the example of jazz , jazz only became popular in america when it was performed by white artists , sold by white record company's and written about by the white press, artists like chet baker sold millions whilst miles davis & charlie parker were unknowns - sounds familiar don't it? this is in direct parallel with the 1990's , the creators and innovators have been usurped and replaced by artists who once again bring an acceptable face to once revolutionary musical movement, maybe you don't care about the ethics involved, but in our minds it adds up to nothing less than mass cultural explotation Written by "James" <JSEO@us.oracle.com>

quoted 6 lines But Stuart, the American masses have recently had a massive love affair with

>But Stuart, the American masses have recently had a massive love affair with >gangsta rap, which is clearly black music but have topped the charts many >times over and generated a ton of press. Many people have put forth the idea >that one of the reasons for gangsta rap's success is that suburban/city >non-black youths can listen to it and feel 'dangerous', like they're living on >the edge themselves.

yeah - but all gangsta rap has done has re-inforced the stereotypical image that white middle class america has of black culture , a lot of rappers are now railing againts 'gangsta rap', these guys are saying that the only way a black artist can make it in america is to 'uncle tom it'........ some relevant quotes "black people cant get the opportunity to be artists. They can get a chance to be entertainers all they like , but they cant get the opportunity to be true artists. Record companys want to take their chances with marketable people which happens to be the people of their own gender,colour or race" DERRICK MAY "If me , Derrick May and Kevin Saunderson had been white , we would have been the biggest thing since sliced bread" JUAN ATKINS "Derrick compares his situation to Goldies , pointing out that 'Timeless' was a perfect beautiful record than failed to sell in the US because record companies, radio stations and musical infrastructure still could not deal with a black man producing non-recognisably black music" QUOTED FROM MIXMAG DERRICK MAY INTERVIEW 4thworld crew http;//dialspace.dial.pipex.com/4thworld/

On Fri, 07 Feb 1997 11:02:59 -0800, you wrote:

quoted 20 lines From: (Greg Eden)

>From: (Greg Eden) >Subject: Re: (idm) underground v mainstream > >On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:49:53 -0800, 4th World wrote: >>>2. they are *white* , this is a race issue , why has the music of black >>> pioneers like carl craig , mike banks, derrick may , juan atkins been >>> ignored in the us for the last 10 years , miles davis had the same problem , >>> as longs as it is watered down , reconstituted and sold with a white face >>> america will by it > >>none of the above have ever made any pop music. so they are not >>popular acts. >>the prodigy and the chemical brothers and even to some degree orbital >>make pop music. so they are popular acts. > >the chemical brothers , orbital - pop music, get a grip >so any artist who gets into the charts could be designated as >pop music because they are *popular*, irrespective of their generic >style of music, what about all the early warp acts like LFO that got >in the charts - are they 'pop music'

eh? charts have nothing to do with it pop music isn't just popular music. and it isn't all bad. warp have released a few records that could be termed pop(ish, anyway) in the past, LFO - LFO in it own way was quite pop, the vocal mix on N.O.W: Stars is quite pop, Jimi Tenor Outta Space, Kid Unknown nightmare walking, Sabres Wilmot, they are all moderately pop with vocal and melody hooks. are you telling me that that chem bros setting sun thing wasn't pop? orbital (see also the chem bros) are sacharin sweet and hence palatable for most, relatively non-repetative, melodies etc etc. they are perfect pop 'techno' which is whey they are so successful, students who want to get into 'the underground' or be a bit different whatever - it's always orbital. different but not too different. it's 'nice' music. R-Tyme despite the fact it is just about the best piece of music ever made (not that derrick had much to do with it hehe or much of anything by the sounds of it) is not pop nor is ever likely to be, neither is No UFOS, strings of life, my machines, etc etc. heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that women (generally Helen :) would buy orbital (and chem bros(?)) but wouldn't ever buy a red planet 12". which also accounts for their sales. the detroit crew cut out 50% of the population... OnNow: jimi tenor vodka glasses

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, sm@4thWorld wrote:

quoted 5 lines nah -, take the example of jazz , jazz only became popular in

> nah -, take the example of jazz , jazz only became popular in > america when it was performed by white artists , sold by white record > company's and written about by the white press, artists like chet baker > sold millions whilst miles davis & charlie parker were unknowns - sounds > familiar don't it?

Is this just an american problem? I can remember Pete Tong (Radio 1 DJ and director of London records) saying in Muzik that Goldie's Timeless was one of his favourite albums of the year. I got the impression that the album did quite well in the UK. I've also got the impression that Carl Craig doesn't do too badly for himself either. How do Tricky albums sell in the US? Tim In every work of genius we recognise our own rejected thoughts; they come back to us with a certain alienated majesty.

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:25:31 -0400 (AST), you wrote:

quoted 11 lines On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, sm@4thWorld wrote:

>On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, sm@4thWorld wrote: >> nah -, take the example of jazz , jazz only became popular in >> america when it was performed by white artists , sold by white record >> company's and written about by the white press, artists like chet baker >> sold millions whilst miles davis & charlie parker were unknowns - sounds >> familiar don't it? > >Is this just an american problem? I can remember Pete Tong (Radio 1 DJ and >director of London records) saying in Muzik that Goldie's Timeless was one >of his favourite albums of the year. I got the impression that the album >did quite well in the UK.

it did very well thank you very much. but then Goldie's pop music innit ;) g.

Our beloved warpie wrote:

quoted 3 lines heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that

>> heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that >> women (generally Helen :) would buy orbital (and chem >> bros(?)) but wouldn't ever buy a red planet 12".

g> ooops, that was supposed to be: g> "heh I might as well go the whole hog and say that g> women (generally, Helen, generally :) would buy g> orbital (and chem bros(?)) but wouldn't ever buy a red g> planet 12" Chicken :-) whatever made you fear I might jump down your throat? Anyway, as you boys seems so puzzled by the motivations of the superior sex, I'll give you some insight into why I buy Orbital (and Underworld for that matter). It's purely because for some peculiar reason they have an effect on the nerves that stimulate my the moving of my leg muscles. Both bands also have an incredible positive effect on my emotional state of mind, i.e. their music cheers me up. And even though their effect on my intelligence or creative mental processes is neglible I'd still never call them pop. I'll leave the pop to the Aphex Twin. I like to do an awful lot of thinking ... That's where Locust comes in ... His music makes me think. Do you think Red Planet would stimulate my mental proces? Do tell me about them as I've never heard any of their (his?) stuff. I also often think why the hell I listen to some of the records I buy. AFX, Caustic Window, the Universal Indicators, Kinestesia, Panasonic, 0, sheer mental torture for a delicate female like myself. Those dusty chemical brothers only succeed in sending me off to sleep btw. Kissiekiss, Helen

quoted 3 lines I'll give you some insight into why I buy Orbital (and Underworld for that

> I'll give you some insight into why I buy Orbital (and Underworld for that > matter). It's purely because for some peculiar reason they have an effect on > the nerves that stimulate my the moving of my leg muscles.

Wow...you're turning me on. Don't stop. What does Squarepusher do to you? What a woman.

quoted 2 lines Kissiekiss,

> Kissiekiss, > Helen

Right back at you, _____ / ,-,_) /,_) (/ RESH Live & Direct from the --->G-Spot<---, Orange County, California, USA http://www1.linkonline.net/fresh/fresh.htm

Gonzi in a fresh mood

quoted 4 lines I'll give you some insight into why I buy Orbital

>> I'll give you some insight into why I buy Orbital >> (and Underworld for that matter). It's purely because >> for some peculiar reason they have an effect on the >> nerves that stimulate the moving of my leg muscles.

f> Wow...you're turning me on. Down boy!, you are reading things that are not there - and all that because I couldn't think of the word 'dance' ... f> Don't stop. What does Squarepusher do to you? The first few times I played 'feed me' I thought it wonderful, and my heart leapt. The more I heard it, the more I heard the Aphex Twin. I like the Aphex Twin's noodlings when they are created and played by the Aphex Twin himself. Tom Jenkinson's bass continues to move me, but Squarepusher makes me feel cheated in the way that the Palace Brothers did when they covered a song by Joan Baez (Joe Hill or summit) whose whinings I cannot stomach. It turns me off. f> What a woman. I know. Helen OnNow: seefeel - quique