IDM Mailing Archive

the following is a bit of pro-reynolds propaganda... because i feel that people, especially those that are convinced of being "undergroud," tend to pick on successfull people. reason . r ea s o n . . .

quoted 3 lines In all seriousness, Simon Reynolds comes from a fundamentally

>In all seriousness, Simon Reynolds comes from a fundamentally >different context in discussing music than most people on this list. >He's all about populism, dancing, and cultural revolution.

--William VanLoo another thing to bear in mind : reynolds is also the paradox of the intellectual who hates intellectuals (cf. orwell, steinbeck...). he is a brilliant writer, historian and music critic. he is by no means a lost drug-addled teen who couldn't pay attention in class, like he might like to believe. he captures the feelings of songs tersely and so eloquently that his style is almost remiscent of, well, good writing, unlike modern music critics who tend to really drop the ball and get so caught up in being funny or cute that they hardly even discuss the music (even certain IDM reviwers do this...!).

quoted 3 lines how he picks on Ae, Squarepusher, Aphex, and all the other fine

>how he picks on Ae, Squarepusher, Aphex, and all the other fine >purveyors of IDM (or whatever you want to call it) on his web page, for >forgetting about electronic music's orriginal purpose -- dancing...

--Q-Bot Eye not to pick specifically on Q, but i think in general you've all lost the plot. reynolds does not hate idm, he does not see dance music as the only potential of electronics. that's stupid. he's not an idiot ! to someone like myself who was too young during most of the electronic music revolution, _generation ecstacy_ was a comprehensive history of electronic music, a good way to catch up quick. i have read the chapter on idm a number of times, in which he praises r.james, and tells the rest of the history in a standard subjective tone. and no, he is not much a fan of the music, but if THAT is what you find disagreeable, well, then... i remind you that this is the list where people complain about having to listen to garage, or the music *he* likes. not *everyone* feels or enjoys the complex spectrum of emotions in music that we idm fans do (i.e., uneasiness, false relaxation, mad delight, and other standard afx/ae tricks....) some while ago on the idm-list, franco ingrassia cited reynolds' passage on what he calls 'geektronica'. (http://members.aol.com/blissout/over98.htm) is there anything there that isn't true ? would anybody here not call himself a geek ? (because i know someone will say it : 'himself' is here sexually ambiguous) essentially, the main point that reynolds criticizes about this genre is one that even its own members resent, and dispute ceaselessly : the bug of 'elitism', the secret desire that no more than 300 people should deserve this record, the quest for more music and the delight in connoisseurship, the selfish joy in owning and knowing something secret that the the rest of the world finds unattainable. (and, frankly, undesirable.) .af. ps; props to christophe for making the frogs post in this discussion ! pps; i must say that i find reynolds' mockery of FSOL in the aforementioned book to be cruel and immature, for those who have read it. he does get childish. ppps; i think i have heard someone complain about the name INTELLIGENT DANCE MUSIC one time too many. i am willing to begin discussions on reforming this name. or at least on thinking of different words for the acronym IDM..... ? incomprehensible devolving mentality ? international disenchanted movement ? in dirty minds ? ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, adam.florin wrote:

quoted 4 lines the following is a bit of pro-reynolds propaganda... because i feel that

> > the following is a bit of pro-reynolds propaganda... because i feel that > people, especially those that are convinced of being "undergroud," tend to > pick on successfull people. reason . r ea s o n . . .

[snip]

quoted 10 lines some while ago on the idm-list, franco ingrassia cited reynolds' passage on

> some while ago on the idm-list, franco ingrassia cited reynolds' passage on > what he calls 'geektronica'. (http://members.aol.com/blissout/over98.htm) > is there anything there that isn't true ? would anybody here not call > himself a geek ? (because i know someone will say it : 'himself' is here > sexually ambiguous) essentially, the main point that reynolds criticizes > about this genre is one that even its own members resent, and dispute > ceaselessly : the bug of 'elitism', the secret desire that no more than 300 > people should deserve this record, the quest for more music and the delight > in connoisseurship, the selfish joy in owning and knowing something secret > that the the rest of the world finds unattainable.

On a tangent... An article in this week's NYTimes Magazine, by Tom Wolfe, memorializing Frederick Hart--a neo-classical sculptor completely ignored by critics and the art world who happened to be the most financially successful, popular sculptor of his day--had this to say: "Art worldlings regarded popularity as skill's live-in slut. Popularity meant shallowness. Rejection by the public meant depth. And truly hostile rejection very likely meant greatness. Richard Serra's "Tilted Arc," a leaning wall of rusting steel smack in the middle of Federal Plaza in New York, was so loathed by the building's employees that 1,300 of them, including many federal judges, signed a petition calling for its removal. They were angry and determined, and eventually the wall was removed. Serra thereby achieved an eminence of immaculate purity: his work involved absolutely no skill and was despised by everyone outside the art world who saw it. Today many art worldlings regard him as America's greatest sculptor." Substitute, say, IDMers for art worldlings, and your favorite obscurist act for Serra, and reread. http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000102mag-wolfe24.html Sam, dumbass populism's live-in slut --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

in reply to david turgeon.

quoted 5 lines ah, the reynoldian fear of the hole inside geekdom where releases fall

>ah, the reynoldian fear of the hole inside geekdom where releases fall >only to lose all meaning & influence forever... > >the bug of elitism as we currently know it is indeed a plague. but the >fact is, it only marginally happens:

heh. that is the 'reynoldian fear,' isn't it ? well, i just wanted to state his views earlier. my own follow. to be frank, i haven't seen elitism on this list as much as i feared i might. what is being called snobbiness, by some such as our self-righteous populist friend Shirei3000 ("You 90% are completely snobs"), is really just preference of one style of music over another. some of these "underground" movements tend to be comprised of people who simply want to spite the masses ; this is not so much the case in idm, i don't think. i gather that the majority of you are not music-deaf record collectors, but genuine appreciators of the music as i am. it is not its mere state of marginality that draws me to idm : when i discovered it, it was the first genre as a whole that i really *loved*. it reconciled my disparate tastes (namely, a classical appreciation for music and a fascination with modern electronic tools) where rock or jazz or trance could not satisfy.

quoted 2 lines 1) the reluctance of the general public to purchase marginal releases,

>1) the reluctance of the general public to purchase marginal releases, >resulting in less sales;

here is the question : do we wish that *everyone* listened to idm ? would that change our opinion of it ? .. marginal music must exist because the whole world can't listen to the same music (homogeny does not breed community, yadda yadda), etc. idm will probably never be a *huge* movement, but i would still listen to it if it were. if it were a large movement, then the question of availability would be irrelevant. it would be quite available ! but, like i said before, it appeals to emotions and mindsets which are not natural for casual music listeners, and, i find, are really just peculiar in general. "music that destroys its own momentum," as wayne coyne once said of his own songs, is not pleasing to the masses who really just want celebreties and anthems. i do wish more people could appreciate it, though. i don't have any friends who are very into idm. it sucks ! they say "wow, that's cool, but most kids like dance music," and i say, "well, there are people on the internet that think it's cool." so, here we are, a small community spread across every time zone, culturally together but miles apart..... is this what the internet's done ??

quoted 3 lines this however leads to a sad recognition: that to keep up with all this

>this however leads to a sad recognition: that to keep up with all this >production, one has to have a certain amount of time & money to put into >it, which the majority of america clearly doesn't possess.

i simply can't deal with it. ! i'm going to just listen to inaudible, subscribe to grooves magazine, and trust their recommendations. i'll go mad if i continue to spend two hours a day researching breaking artists ! this list will yet be the end of me ! .af. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

David,

quoted 2 lines the bug of elitism as we currently know it is indeed a plague. but the

>the bug of elitism as we currently know it is indeed a plague. but the >fact is, it only marginally happens:

Explain what you mean by "only marginally happens"!? IDM reeks of elitism from the big labels Warp and Rephlex releasing severely limited 12" vinyl only releases to the smaller labels doing the same.. in defense of the some of the small labels.. it's the economics, but I don't think that stands up to scrutiny with labels like Skam and so on. Then there's my favourite form of geeky elitism <huge sarcastic smile> the ridiculously limited cdr release. I mean what the fuck? There's no reason a cdr release should go out of print if there are people still willing to buy it!! Regards, John Aural Industries --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines the bug of elitism as we currently know it is indeed a plague. but the

> >the bug of elitism as we currently know it is indeed a plague. but the > >fact is, it only marginally happens: > Explain what you mean by "only marginally happens"!? IDM reeks of elitism > from the big labels Warp and Rephlex releasing severely limited 12" vinyl

face it: warp & rephlex could release whatever crap they want, they know there's always going to be someone to buy it. their influence goes way beyond this mere list. ever read the warp message board? it's depressing. but anyway, you've misread my point. here is the original quote from my message: "the bug of elitism as we currently know it is indeed a plague. but the fact is, it only marginally happens: -->> the problem is that it is extremely visible on lists such as these <<-- , where records trade at the speed of light & news from every obscure label flies just as fast." most labels act responsibly, & most music listeners listen to their music because they enjoy it. my point is that the examples where this is not true are probably the most visible, because they're the ones that get talked about. just look at what we're doing right in this message: there's been so many times where i've seen the word 'warp', 'rephlex', 'skam' in a message where the actual point was some controversy surrounding them. compare to the amount of times you see people talk of a responsible label such as ninja tune, drop beat, kracfive, töshöklabs, mad monkey, aural industries...

quoted 3 lines only releases to the smaller labels doing the same.. in defense of the

> only releases to the smaller labels doing the same.. in defense of the > some of the small labels.. it's the economics, but I don't think that > stands up to scrutiny with labels like Skam and so on. Then there's my

once again, skam's 'attitude' is exactly the sort of thing i was criticizing in my message, but you probably skipped that part (otherwise why would you be repeating exactly what i said?)

quoted 4 lines favourite form of geeky elitism <huge sarcastic smile> the ridiculously

> favourite form of geeky elitism <huge sarcastic smile> the ridiculously > limited cdr release. I mean what the fuck? There's no reason a cdr > release should go out of print if there are people still willing to buy > it!!

sorry, but that sounds petty at best. cdr releases are limited for a reason: usually it has to do with the fact that the person putting them out doesn't have the means (time or money) to do otherwise. & put yourself in a cdr label person's shoes: would you really enjoy turning your computer into a cdr factory just to make those 50 extra copies, when you already have a day job & a lot of other things to do with your time? & what if you're just a musician trying to get your music out? not everyone likes to run a business, you know. i know i don't. but do go ahead & back your comment with some evidence of cdr labels limiting their print runs just for the sake of elitism. i'm all ears. ~ david --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

David,

quoted 4 lines face it: warp & rephlex could release whatever crap they want, they know

>face it: warp & rephlex could release whatever crap they want, they know >there's always going to be someone to buy it. their influence goes way >beyond this mere list. ever read the warp message board? it's >depressing.

Yes they can, as can any other label for that matter. Though it'll be interesting how many times releases released on the aforementioned labels will feature in the IDM-list best of 99 poll. I'm betting on not many times and definitely less than years gone by. Welcome the little players... ;)

quoted 2 lines but anyway, you've misread my point. here is the original quote from my

>but anyway, you've misread my point. here is the original quote from my >message:

Ok, so we are quibbling other the definition of 'marginally' here. You are right in pointing out that it's the most often talked about labels that are guilty of such elitism, hence it might get more screen time. Though it's not just these labels (my mentioning of cdr labels that limit their run is a good example of such elitism), and it's just not the labels its also the listeners attitudes too... the whole genre reeks of fanboy obsessiveness on many levels. This doesn't worry me in particular.. i'm probably partially guilty of such myself, but in the original context of Simon Reynolds pointing it out.. he was pretty well on the mark with it.

quoted 16 lines favourite form of geeky elitism <huge sarcastic smile> the ridiculously

>> favourite form of geeky elitism <huge sarcastic smile> the ridiculously >> limited cdr release. I mean what the fuck? There's no reason a cdr >> release should go out of print if there are people still willing to buy >> it!! > >sorry, but that sounds petty at best. cdr releases are limited for a >reason: usually it has to do with the fact that the person putting them >out doesn't have the means (time or money) to do otherwise. & put >yourself in a cdr label person's shoes: would you really enjoy turning >your computer into a cdr factory just to make those 50 extra copies, >when you already have a day job & a lot of other things to do with your >time? & what if you're just a musician trying to get your music out? >not everyone likes to run a business, you know. i know i don't. > >but do go ahead & back your comment with some evidence of cdr labels >limiting their print runs just for the sake of elitism. i'm all ears.

Petty!? Explain how? I think the logic that you limit your cdr run even though you may have another 50, 100 or 1000 paying customers cueing up at the door is petty. Basically with each cdr sold you should be covering your costs and then some. The 'then some part' then covers the media, cover-art and the time spent reproducing the next cdr of the continuing run. So bearing this in mind what logic is there for limiting your cdr run if you have people wanting to purchase it!? You don't even have to burn the cdr until you have received their payment in advance!! All I said was... "There's no reason a cdr release should go out of print if there are people still willing to buy it!!". I could point fingers and say didn't you do somebodies cdr release in a run of 20? If so, what were the reasons for the ridiculously limited run? Not mean't to hassle you, but to find out your reasoning. Still waiting for a logical argument against what i've just said... Regards, John Selectronic / AI's cdr label offshoot - who's releases will always be in print!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

David,

quoted 4 lines fanboy obsessiveness, once again, is magnified with the screen time it

>fanboy obsessiveness, once again, is magnified with the screen time it >gets. every ft/fs list displays a bit of it, & so does every question >about this or that obscure artist or release. but to be honest, i've >rarely seen it go beyond a healthy interest in the music we all love.

You are kidding, right!? Have you looked at the EBay site at some of the prices this limited, exclusive, buy now or die music is fetching!?!?! Not too mention a Skam Frisbee!?

quoted 19 lines Petty!? Explain how? I think the logic that you limit your cdr run even

>> Petty!? Explain how? I think the logic that you limit your cdr run even >> though you may have another 50, 100 or 1000 paying customers cueing up at >> the door is petty. Basically with each cdr sold you should be covering your >> costs and then some. The 'then some part' then covers the media, cover-art >> and the time spent reproducing the next cdr of the continuing run. So >> bearing this in mind what logic is there for limiting your cdr run if you >> have people wanting to purchase it!? You don't even have to burn the cdr >> until you have received their payment in advance!! > >look, your argument is sound & all. i just find it questionable to >ridicule cdr labels (who certainly aren't in it for the money, otherwise >they wouldn't be burning cdrs) just because of their print runs. you >may have the resources & the willingness to do such a venture, & others >might not. i think it's more a matter of accepting other people's >preoccupations than anything to do with logic. i'm certainly not >against the fact that some people are ready to spend their energy on >running an on-demand cdr label: in fact, i applaud the fact & i wish >them a lot of success. just understand that not everyone is willing to >go this path.

Questionable!? Explain how? I think the questionable thing here is cdr labels limiting their runs to ridiculously low amounts. The technology empowered those too impoverished but with obvious talent to get their music out their and heard. So why cut the head off this empowerment!?

quoted 24 lines All I said was... "There's no reason a cdr release should go out of print

>> All I said was... "There's no reason a cdr release should go out of print >> if there are people still willing to buy it!!". I could point fingers and >> say didn't you do somebodies cdr release in a run of 20? If so, what were >> the reasons for the ridiculously limited run? Not mean't to hassle you, but >> to find out your reasoning. > >i'll be honest with you, i don't have much interest in selling >incredible amounts of cdrs. in fact, i'm a shitty businessman & i don't >know what i'm doing. i've bought a run of 20 cdrs from tomas (in fact i >still owe him a bit from that) & sold them around (& even gave away a >few of them to friends) for fun & to get the word around about his album >& the no type site, which it is associated with. i don't have anymore >money to spend nor am i willing to do any sort of cost planning, >budgeting, etc. if someone could do this better, i'd gladly let them >take over. unfortunately, i had to do this myself so there you go. & >now i'm burning my own music on cdr & selling it around at the speed of >snail, & i don't even think i'll sell more than the print of 20 i'm >aiming to make of them. & god, if i do, you can be sure i'll burn some >more, but when the day comes where i have to burn more than 5-6 cdrs a >day just to keep up with the demand, you can be sure i'll either start >seriously limiting my runs or find some other way to do this stuff, >because that's about the best i can do with the resources i have. > >i hope that's a satisfactory answer.

Ok so it's explained by you in your case as being too lazy or not having the resources to keep continually producing more of the same cdr... fair enough that is your choice. One I disagree with but anyway.. now let's take your example. From memory (I don't have your original post anymore) one of your major emphasises/selling points of Thomas's cdr was it was limited to only 20 copies and there will be NO more.. this is elitism.. plain and simple. I think quite a few cdr labels use the fact that there are only ridiculously low numbers of the run to be had to market said cdr.. contrary to it all being about the music. I could go on about that you are doing the music a dis-service by ham-stringing it to only 20 copies and by not putting in the time and effort needed to do something properly. I've learnt the hard way with the Thug release... i've spent 100's of hours promoting it, producing it, making sure the manufacturing process went smoothly, etc, etc and guess what I haven't made a cent on it. Actually lost money, especially if I were to charge for my time spent on it, BUT I don't do it too make money! I do it for the love of the music and especially to highlight that Australia has some quality electronic music being made within it's borders. Oh I had the idea on reading your post of there being a cdr burn chain... but apart from people being honest and sending some of the money, they make on selling the burnt cdr's (exactly what is open to debate and questionable too), to the original artist.. I couldn't come up with any valid way to implement such an idea. Maybe some sort of licensing scheme? Such as some one with a burner if they so choose pays a higher price for their cdr and this covers any further cdrs s/he may make and sell. Has some incentive for those who want to make some money and as a way of spreading the music around, as it would keep music in print and alleviate the problems you mentioned above. Though it also has it's own inherent problems. I've just thrown the idea out into the public domain to see where it might go and if anybody else can come up with good positive suggestions. Of course the above doesn't cover novel packaging which seems to be all the rage nowadays (Is this another form of elitism? ...only kidding! :). Regards, John P.S. With Selectronic i'll be getting a duplication firm to take care of that side of things for me. So there's another answer to some of your lack of time, motivation and organisation problems you mentioned above. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Ah shite.. my deepest apologises for taking what was a private email (the second one of yours in this thread) and cc'ing it back to the idm list, which is as we all know not very private... i'm really very sorry. Sorry, John Aural Industries --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org