IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 6 lines radiohead did actually

>>radiohead did actually >>> hire/collaborate with a jazz band on those albums, fully credited. >>> plus the new jonny greenwood soundtrack was done with other jazz >>> players. >> >> I have a feeling he meant the "IDM" aspects, not the jazz ones.

quoted 8 lines that is true, but it is interesting Radiohead is hiring additional

>that is true, but it is interesting Radiohead is hiring additional >players. >I actually have a little respect for them now. Now if they can just get >a 1/2 >decent electronica guy to make their shitty electronica tracks sound ok >then >we might be going somewhere. sometimes doing it yourself just doesn't >work.

i think what's wonderful about bands like that is that they get it wrong. they sort of try to do electronica but they *don't* have the coolest sounds or the best programming knowledge. so it fucks up and it sounds like them instead of like someone else. leave it to the brits. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 11 lines i think what's wonderful about bands like that is that they get it

> > i think what's wonderful about bands like that is that they get it > wrong. they sort > of try to do electronica but they *don't* have the coolest sounds or > the best > programming knowledge. so it fucks up and it sounds like them instead > of like > someone else. leave it to the brits. > > d. >

Perhaps with Hefner, but there's a difference between individual and untrained and just mimicry that doesn't make it. - a

quoted 5 lines ---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Andrew Jones 912 Euclid Ave. Birmingham, AL, 35213 407-927-7607 aim: liminal18 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Others might wish Radiohead would hire 'better' people to do the electronic parts of their songs. I have a different hope -- that more electronic artists would spend as much time on actually writing music, and less on tweaking the latest max/msp patch. Not everyone likes Radiohead, but the real secret to their success is they write really good songs, that would still be good songs if they were performed on ukelele and kazoo. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 01:22 PM, Kent Williams wrote:

quoted 7 lines Others might wish Radiohead would hire 'better' people to do the

> Others might wish Radiohead would hire 'better' people to do the > electronic parts of their songs. > > I have a different hope -- that more electronic artists would spend as > much time on actually writing music, and less on tweaking the latest > max/msp patch. >

yeah true. a lot of idm is more wankery than music, but there's still some good songs.

quoted 3 lines Not everyone likes Radiohead, but the real secret to their success is

> Not everyone likes Radiohead, but the real secret to their success is > they write really good songs, that would still be good songs if they > were performed on ukelele and kazoo.

if go down to sam ash u can buy the radiohead song books and do that. peace, a

quoted 6 lines ---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Andrew Jones 912 Euclid Ave. Birmingham, AL, 35213 407-927-7607 aim: liminal18 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines I have a different hope -- that more electronic artists would spend as

> I have a different hope -- that more electronic artists would spend as > much time on actually writing music, and less on tweaking the latest > max/msp patch. >

I never liked this argument regarding electronic music (especially idm) because the rules have changed (evolved) so drastically. When I think of good songwriting, it's stuff from decades ago (respect to the Everly Bros, Simon and Garfunkel, Beatles). And even during the rock eras of the 70s-90s, finding a well written song with an original chord progression and an artful, meaningful melody was a challenge. And just because a song was a hit or popular doesn't mean that it was well written. Somewhere along the way (I'm not sure which artists or producers to blame) the emphasis changed from coming up with good songs to coming up with exciting sounds. The song doesn't matter; the sound of the song is what's important. That trend continues today especially with all the computer-aided compositional techniques that are so commonplace in all this music that we all love. My point is that it was never the point or the goal for any of these current electonic artists to write a good song. Sound design and arranging and even mixing will all take priority over classic strong songwriting. You can go find the most gorgeous song by Bola or Boards of Canada or Plaid or whomever and it still wouldn't qualify as a good song by traditional standards. I have a similar argument on why almost all classical music post Beethoven is crap, but I'll save that one for another list. np: VSnares Shiver in Eternal Darkness

-----Original Message----- From: Albers, Brian [mailto:BAlbers@premiereradio.com] Sent: 2004 m. rugsėjo 8 d. 00:33 To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: [idm] radioheadtronica

quoted 4 lines I have a different hope -- that more electronic artists would spend as

> I have a different hope -- that more electronic artists would spend as > much time on actually writing music, and less on tweaking the latest > max/msp patch. >

I never liked this argument regarding electronic music (especially idm) because the rules have changed (evolved) so drastically. When I think of good songwriting, it's stuff from decades ago (respect to the Everly Bros, Simon and Garfunkel, Beatles). And even during the rock eras of the 70s-90s, finding a well written song with an original chord progression and an artful, meaningful melody was a challenge. And just because a song was a hit or popular doesn't mean that it was well written. Somewhere along the way (I'm not sure which artists or producers to blame) the emphasis changed from coming up with good songs to coming up with exciting sounds. The song doesn't matter; the sound of the song is what's important. That trend continues today especially with all the computer-aided compositional techniques that are so commonplace in all this music that we all love. My point is that it was never the point or the goal for any of these current electonic artists to write a good song. Sound design and arranging and even mixing will all take priority over classic strong songwriting. You can go find the most gorgeous song by Bola or Boards of Canada or Plaid or whomever and it still wouldn't qualify as a good song by traditional standards. I have a similar argument on why almost all classical music post Beethoven is crap, but I'll save that one for another list. np: VSnares Shiver in Eternal Darkness I think Brian is right. Song writing is that what it is. You can't event a bicycle there. Unique sound alone is not an interesting thing, too. It is all about combining these two things together. You have to be somehow unique if you want to succeed. As for radiohead's electronic music I've heard rumors that they've purchased a lot of warp stuff before writing the album and tried to generate ideas from that. It feels like that for me. Walkman www.sutemos.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I think that writing a pop song is a different thing than coming up with an electronic music piece -- maybe it's unfair of me to criticize people for worrying about sound design more than songwriting, and I enjoy a nice repetetive track as well as the next guy. My problem is that I hear SO MUCH MUSIC. Really. And while the really exceptional stuff makes its own rules, there's so much out there that's made by people who mistake aping the sound design and sequencing strategies of the really good artists for being original themselves. But I have a very short attention span, and a low tolerance for people who beat the same dead horse. As an example: running a disco sample through a lowpass filter over a house beat was a cool idea -- for one track. They went and made a whole effing GENRE out of it. Another example: As far as I'm concerned, everyone besides Kit Clayton needs to STEP OFF on the Max/MSP wanking, because he's got it completely on lock. I guess I'm just tired of so much mediocre music coming out. And I'm not naming names... On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 00:55:10 +0300, Walkman <walkman@sutemos.net> wrote:

quoted 38 lines -----Original Message-----

> > -----Original Message----- > From: Albers, Brian [mailto:BAlbers@premiereradio.com] > Sent: 2004 m. rugsėjo 8 d. 00:33 > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: RE: [idm] radioheadtronica > > > I have a different hope -- that more electronic artists would spend as > > much time on actually writing music, and less on tweaking the latest > > max/msp patch. > > > > I never liked this argument regarding electronic music (especially idm) > because the rules have changed (evolved) so drastically. When I think of > good songwriting, it's stuff from decades ago (respect to the Everly Bros, > Simon and Garfunkel, Beatles). And even during the rock eras of the 70s-90s, > finding a well written song with an original chord progression and an > artful, meaningful melody was a challenge. And just because a song was a hit > or popular doesn't mean that it was well written. > > > I think Brian is right. Song writing is that what it is. You can't event a > bicycle there. Unique sound alone is not an interesting thing, too. It is > all about combining these two things together. You have to be somehow unique > if you want to succeed. > > As for radiohead's electronic music I've heard rumors that they've purchased > a lot of warp stuff before writing the album and tried to generate ideas > from that. It feels like that for me. > > Walkman > www.sutemos.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 8 lines But I have a very short attention span, and a low tolerance for people

> > But I have a very short attention span, and a low tolerance for people > who beat the same dead horse. As an example: running a disco sample > through a lowpass filter over a house beat was a cool idea -- for one > track. They went and made a whole effing GENRE out of it. Another > example: As far as I'm concerned, everyone besides Kit Clayton needs > to STEP OFF on the Max/MSP wanking, because he's got it completely on > lock.

You my friend... have just nailed the entire problem w/ electronica. if i could only listen to kit clayton I could die happy. Although the V. Delay stuff is good too. peace, a --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I think idm artists should focus more on the music & melody versus glitches, dsp, etc. I really feel that most of the idm coming out pretty much all sounds the same, so there's no reason for me to go out and buy it. I'd be more happy with Radiohead making more electronic influenced tunes than 90% of the idm I hear. I think a lot of the idm artists are pretty weak musically so they have to rely on tricks to make the music less boring. --- Kent Williams <chaircrusher@gmail.com> wrote:

quoted 35 lines I think that writing a pop song is a different thing

> I think that writing a pop song is a different thing > than coming up > with an electronic music piece -- maybe it's unfair > of me to criticize > people for worrying about sound design more than > songwriting, and I > enjoy a nice repetetive track as well as the next > guy. > > My problem is that I hear SO MUCH MUSIC. Really. And > while the really > exceptional stuff makes its own rules, there's so > much out there > that's made by people who mistake aping the sound > design and > sequencing strategies of the really good artists for > being original > themselves. > > But I have a very short attention span, and a low > tolerance for people > who beat the same dead horse. As an example: > running a disco sample > through a lowpass filter over a house beat was a > cool idea -- for one > track. They went and made a whole effing GENRE out > of it. Another > example: As far as I'm concerned, everyone besides > Kit Clayton needs > to STEP OFF on the Max/MSP wanking, because he's got > it completely on > lock. > > I guess I'm just tired of so much mediocre music > coming out. And I'm not naming names...

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I totally agree. There has definitely been a tendency towards sound design over melodic or compositional production in a lot of IDM. I don't hear too much of anything 'raw' anymore. Everyone new out there is very polished and sparkly, while lacking that body and warmth a lot of my favorite electronic music has at its core. Did anyone care that there was blatant peaking and production errors in a lot of Aphex Twin's earlier music? No, the melodies were amazing. There is definitely a lack of new artists seeking the melodic means to an end, rather than the textural one. A good example is Kettel, his musical output is very unpolished from a mixing/sound design perspective, yet his melodies and structure are not only warm and engaging, but have a style. You don't hear too many newer artists with a distinct melodic style in IDM anymore. -mark Def Con 1 wrote:

quoted 71 lines I think idm artists should focus more on the music &

>I think idm artists should focus more on the music & >melody versus glitches, dsp, etc. I really feel that >most of the idm coming out pretty much all sounds the >same, so there's no reason for me to go out and buy >it. > >I'd be more happy with Radiohead making more >electronic influenced tunes than 90% of the idm I >hear. > >I think a lot of the idm artists are pretty weak >musically so they have to rely on tricks to make the >music less boring. > >--- Kent Williams <chaircrusher@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>I think that writing a pop song is a different thing >>than coming up >>with an electronic music piece -- maybe it's unfair >>of me to criticize >>people for worrying about sound design more than >>songwriting, and I >>enjoy a nice repetetive track as well as the next >>guy. >> >>My problem is that I hear SO MUCH MUSIC. Really. And >>while the really >>exceptional stuff makes its own rules, there's so >>much out there >>that's made by people who mistake aping the sound >>design and >>sequencing strategies of the really good artists for >>being original >>themselves. >> >>But I have a very short attention span, and a low >>tolerance for people >>who beat the same dead horse. As an example: >>running a disco sample >>through a lowpass filter over a house beat was a >>cool idea -- for one >>track. They went and made a whole effing GENRE out >>of it. Another >>example: As far as I'm concerned, everyone besides >>Kit Clayton needs >>to STEP OFF on the Max/MSP wanking, because he's got >>it completely on >>lock. >> >>I guess I'm just tired of so much mediocre music >>coming out. And I'm not naming names... >> >> > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > >

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quoted 22 lines I totally agree. There has definitely been a tendency towards sound

>I totally agree. There has definitely been a tendency towards sound >design over melodic or compositional production in a lot of IDM. I >don't hear too much of anything 'raw' anymore. Everyone new out >there is very polished and sparkly, while lacking that body and >warmth a lot of my favorite electronic music has at its core. Did >anyone care that there was blatant peaking and production errors in >a lot of Aphex Twin's earlier music? No, the melodies were >amazing. There is definitely a lack of new artists seeking the >melodic means to an end, rather than the textural one. >A good example is Kettel, his musical output is very unpolished from >a mixing/sound design perspective, yet his melodies and structure >are not only warm and engaging, but have a style. You don't hear >too many newer artists with a distinct melodic style in IDM anymore. >-mark > >Def Con 1 wrote: > >>I think idm artists should focus more on the music & >>melody versus glitches, dsp, etc. I really feel that >>most of the idm coming out pretty much all sounds the >>same, so there's no reason for me to go out and buy >>it.

i don't really care if it's melodies / chords / song structure, or textures / production / experimental noise. just has to be good and interesting to listen to. i think the point of the flap over MAX/MSP and other overused software is that the stuff is becoming very generic. also, that the software is doing too much and the people not doing enough. my friend's computer has so many plugins that make amazing noises, i no longer find it impressive just to hear a great sound on someone's song if it sounds computer-based. on the other hand, certain pop song hallmarks are so ubiquitous in most music you hear that this is boring as well. there has to be a reason why the person chooses to do what they do. not just, "well, i went from C to G because that's the obvious change in that key and it makes everybody happy," or "i grabbed a beat and threw a bunch of softsynth loops over it and ran stuff through plugins because i could." there may also be a tendency of programmers to get so involved in the programming they don't make sure the piece is actually listenable when they're finished. it's interesting to them because they spent hours and hours tweaking custom patches and editing the shit out of something, and they're focusing on these transitions rather than the music as a whole. this might impress other programmer/musicians who look for things like that, but it then becomes the electronic version of yngwie malmsteen or any number of metal guitarists who are only of interest to other guitarists, rather than ordinary people who listen to music. i like the richard devine final test - he takes drugs and listens to the finished piece. just so he can get into a completely different head than who he is as a programmer/musician. if it doesn't hit him as a piece of music instead of a series of effects and edits, he goes back and reworks it until it's better. a lot of music could benefit from this kind of quality control (with or without the drugs). d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Def Con 1 wrote:

quoted 5 lines I think idm artists should focus more on the music &

> I think idm artists should focus more on the music & > melody versus glitches, dsp, etc. I really feel that > most of the idm coming out pretty much all sounds the > same, so there's no reason for me to go out and buy > it.

Go back and listen to the old-skool (heh) original Artificial Intelligence series from Warp. That's what I've been doing... Also most of the stuff from Suction Records is quite nice. (But that's probably old news.) -JimG -- from jimg via yojimg.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line Also most of the stuff from Suction Records is quite nice.

> Also most of the stuff from Suction Records is quite nice.

What would you recommend as a starting place to start investigating the Suction discography? Also, which volume from the Snow Robots series should I pick? ~Visa --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Snow Robots Volumes 1 & 2 are markedly better than 3 imo. 3 took a different direction (electro). My recommendations from the Suction Records catalog: Solvent - Apples and Synthesizers Lowfish - Eliminator Lowfish - 1000 Corrections Pre Second --- visa <visa.tapani@kanetti.fi> wrote:

quoted 11 lines Also most of the stuff from Suction Records is

> > Also most of the stuff from Suction Records is > quite nice. > > What would you recommend as a starting place to > start investigating the > Suction discography? Also, which volume from the > Snow Robots series should I > pick? > > ~Visa >

===== http://www.staticbeats.com - Electronic Music > Digital Culture http://www.boomboombap.com - First Come > First Heard http://www.moonlight-toys.com - For the bedroom not the office! http://www.shimone.org - Pictures > Stories > Thoughts > Life --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I would narrow that down to just: Lowfish - 1000 Corrections Per Second V/A - Snow Robots 2 and add: Solvent - Solvently One Listens Which is not to say the others aren't any good, I just think those three are the best of the crop. Lowfish - Eliminator is also very good, but I like 1000 Corrections just a tiny bit better. Can't speak for Apples and Synthesizers, but since it's not on Suction anyway, it technically doesn't count ;) -Adam Piontek damek.org StaticBeats wrote:

quoted 22 lines Snow Robots Volumes 1 & 2 are markedly better than 3

> Snow Robots Volumes 1 & 2 are markedly better than 3 > imo. 3 took a different direction (electro). > > My recommendations from the Suction Records catalog: > > Solvent - Apples and Synthesizers > Lowfish - Eliminator > Lowfish - 1000 Corrections Pre Second > > --- visa <visa.tapani@kanetti.fi> wrote: > > >>>Also most of the stuff from Suction Records is >> >>quite nice. >> >>What would you recommend as a starting place to >>start investigating the >>Suction discography? Also, which volume from the >>Snow Robots series should I >>pick? >>

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On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:58:55 -0700 (PDT), StaticBeats <stupidnametaken@yahoo.com> wrote:

quoted 1 line Solvent - Apples and Synthesizers

> Solvent - Apples and Synthesizers

a tough one to find, given that it hasn't been released yet. http://www.ghostly.com/1.0/ghostly/gi35.shtml i0 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

[iteration zero <iterationzero@gmail.com>]

quoted 7 lines On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:58:55 -0700 (PDT), StaticBeats

> On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:58:55 -0700 (PDT), StaticBeats > <stupidnametaken@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Solvent - Apples and Synthesizers > > a tough one to find, given that it hasn't been released yet. > > http://www.ghostly.com/1.0/ghostly/gi35.shtml

That's never stopped people before. -- :: atomly :: [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 312.804.5389 ... [ e-mail atomly-news-subscribe@atomly.com for atomly info and updates ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Also, along the lines of the Suction Records stuff...it's not strictly IDM, but if you like melodic electronic music with catchy synth riffs, definitely check out Broker/Dealer (http://www.dreamchimney.com/brokerdealer/). Two guys who make minimal/catchy/pop/danceable techno. And they play live. And are super nice chaps to boot. -JimG -- from jimg via yojimg.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines Also, along the lines of the Suction Records stuff...it's not strictly

> Also, along the lines of the Suction Records stuff...it's not strictly > IDM, but if you like melodic electronic music with catchy synth riffs, > definitely check out Broker/Dealer > (http://www.dreamchimney.com/brokerdealer/).

Theres a download by those guys available at: http://highpointlowlife.com/downloads.shtml very nice stuff. thor --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines Did anyone care that

>Did anyone care that >there was blatant peaking and production errors in a lot of Aphex Twin's >earlier music? No, the melodies were amazing. There is definitely a >lack of new artists seeking the melodic means to an end, rather than the >textural one.

I sort of agree except I think in this case that is a skewed argument in the sense that, yes, it did matter that aphex's beats sounded like that, people liked it, people liked the griminess. I think some artists are ignoring textural definition under the sophomoric assumption that cleanliness is next to godliness. Sometimes when I hear something that is unnecessarily clean (or over/underproduced) it just sounds really queer and pointless, sort of dry (I feel like I'm in "Brave New World"). It's sort of a similar problem with some of the hip-hop today, (although I'm sure a lot of you could give less a shite about that : p) Nj Colony