IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 3 lines Or conversly, what does Timbaland listen too?

>Or conversly, what does Timbaland listen too? > >He has to have this-listy taste! For godsakes, if "get yer freak on"

wasn't

quoted 1 line Missy, we'd all be getting dead excited. In an olde skool stylee.

>Missy, we'd all be getting dead excited. In an olde skool stylee.

I think one thing to keep in mind here is that Timbaland is pretty firmly rooted in the black music culture of the US which I know this will incite flames but is undoubtably an influence on the work of virtually any idm artists using beats. Timbaland is an innovator in the style of Southern R&B which is influenced heavily by the tick tick bump sound of miami bass where the action is all in high hats and kicks (like a lot of IDM I find) and the snare is pretty unimportant (808 snare anyone?). Timbaland is I think taking this to a logical next step, step outside of the idm world for a sec and you will learn that there is a lot of complex shit going on in the pop world. The whole synth sound is the dominant sound in commercial black US dance music (hip hop/r&b) on the radio (in the states) these days because they got tired of paying for samples and it has been running in the southern us for a long while, which is where most of the production innovation is coming to new york from these days, following in the wake of bass and all that stuff. Not to start another interminable AE thread but when they recently went to Miami they spent their time going to flea markets and digging for bass mix tapes. I am really getting my ramble on here but it's something I like to remind people who are trying to copy innovators, you have to go to the source, don't copy the copy. If you want to understand autechre's 808 style electroey tracks you need to listen to some OG real electro and bass and then make your own extrapolation from there, if you dont want to sound 100% derivative. I love a lot of black music as well as it's many white hybrids and offshoots (AE, Co.Flow, Ed Rush & Optical etc) and find that many of the kids trying to copy this stuff get too far diluted from the source because they are unaware of the roots. I apologize in advance for any excess flame traffic this post may create but hey, someone had to say it. peace, _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

fine. but by the same token, all your "roots" have *their* roots in other and older musics. Musics like funk, disco, jazz, blues, jubilee, ragtime, gospel, irish-american folk, eastern european, klezmer, classical, renaissance, drum musics, et cetera. if you're going to go for the roots, go to this stuff. but even so, not a great many musics are "copies" or "copies of copies." They're mostly simply influenced by other things (granted, some more obviously than others). even the "black music" of the us is not all that much more, historically speaking, than a fusing of other influences with their own. Just as "jewish" music takes on whatever style is dominant in whichever locality the jewish musicians happen to find themselves, "black" music in america fused with irish folk ballads to form the blues. so just because you love "black music" and it's "white offshoots" and derivatives does not mean that even you aren't just copying a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy...... vzaem www.ampcast.com/vzaem

quoted 62 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: SHADETEk Records [mailto:shadetek@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:37 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: [idm] timbaland et al. (warning: flame bait) > > > >Or conversly, what does Timbaland listen too? > > > >He has to have this-listy taste! For godsakes, if "get yer freak on" > wasn't > >Missy, we'd all be getting dead excited. In an olde skool stylee. > > I think one thing to keep in mind here is that Timbaland is pretty firmly > rooted in the black music culture of the US which I know this will incite > flames but is undoubtably an influence on the work of virtually any idm > artists using beats. Timbaland is an innovator in the style of > Southern R&B > which is influenced heavily by the tick tick bump sound of miami > bass where > the action is all in high hats and kicks (like a lot of IDM I > find) and the > snare is pretty unimportant (808 snare anyone?). Timbaland is I think > taking this to a logical next step, step outside of the idm world > for a sec > and you will learn that there is a lot of complex shit going on > in the pop > world. The whole synth sound is the dominant sound in commercial black US > dance music (hip hop/r&b) on the radio (in the states) these days because > they got tired of paying for samples and it has been running in > the southern > us for a long while, which is where most of the production innovation is > coming to new york from these days, following in the wake of bass and all > that stuff. Not to start another interminable AE thread but when they > recently went to Miami they spent their time going to flea markets and > digging for bass mix tapes. I am really getting my ramble on > here but it's > something I like to remind people who are trying to copy innovators, you > have to go to the source, don't copy the copy. If you want to understand > autechre's 808 style electroey tracks you need to listen to some OG real > electro and bass and then make your own extrapolation from there, if you > dont want to sound 100% derivative. I love a lot of black music > as well as > it's many white hybrids and offshoots (AE, Co.Flow, Ed Rush & > Optical etc) > and find that many of the kids trying to copy this stuff get too > far diluted > from the source because they are unaware of the roots. I apologize in > advance for any excess flame traffic this post may create but > hey, someone > had to say it. > > peace, > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 4 lines fine. but by the same token, all your "roots" have *their* roots in other

> >fine. but by the same token, all your "roots" have *their* roots in other >and older musics. Musics like funk, disco, jazz, blues, jubilee, >ragtime...

<snip> This is certainly logically true although this is the only way I can state what is to me a readily observable pattern. Part of the use of this for me is to observe a pattern of proliferation of derivative styles and in that proliferation a watering down (or perhaps conscious subtraction) of elements which I enjoyed in the original. Influence is certainly a complex thing to chart though. To me, in my opinion, one of the essential characteristics of earlier autechre was a heavy influence from funk and funk derived dance musics which placed an emphasis on strong repetition juxtaposed with variation in their rhythm sections. While many of those influenced by them took only the variation aspect from this and produce music which aspires to constant non-repetitiveness thus moving sharply away from a danceable or even head-noddable format. An example for this for me is Richard Devine who I do not think is bad, actually very skilled and devoted producer but I find that his emphasis on overwhelming non-repetitive detail makes his music lean too heavily towards the cerebral rather than more primitively enjoyable side of the musical spectrum for me to listen to with any great regularity. I certainly respect this aspiration but I also certainly do not want to listen to it on my headphones when walking around, while I especially enjoy AE in this way. peace, _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I hear you to a degree, although i've only gotten into autechre pretty recently, i can see how some of the older stuff is more 'bumpin' than the new stuff. On the other hand i think some of devines stuff is immencely bumping because he pushes the hardest edge of being fucked up and disjointed and varying, then hooks you back in to the rhythm. I guess it does go a bit too far for the dancefloor but i'm feeling it. What i'd really like to hear is somebody who takes that but works with a much more slamming strong beat. I think some of the other stuff phonecia doees that i've heard fits that, but you could do alot more... - cutups ----- Original Message ----- From: SHADETEk Records <shadetek@hotmail.com> To: <vzaem@humbledesign.com> Cc: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 3:01 PM Subject: RE: [idm] timbaland et al. (warning: flame bait)

quoted 2 lines fine. but by the same token, all your "roots" have *their* roots in

> > > >fine. but by the same token, all your "roots" have *their* roots in

other

quoted 7 lines and older musics. Musics like funk, disco, jazz, blues, jubilee,

> >and older musics. Musics like funk, disco, jazz, blues, jubilee, > >ragtime... > > <snip> > > This is certainly logically true although this is the only way I can state > what is to me a readily observable pattern. Part of the use of this for

me

quoted 2 lines is to observe a pattern of proliferation of derivative styles and in that

> is to observe a pattern of proliferation of derivative styles and in that > proliferation a watering down (or perhaps conscious subtraction) of

elements

quoted 1 line which I enjoyed in the original. Influence is certainly a complex thing

> which I enjoyed in the original. Influence is certainly a complex thing

to

quoted 1 line chart though. To me, in my opinion, one of the essential characteristics

> chart though. To me, in my opinion, one of the essential characteristics

of

quoted 3 lines earlier autechre was a heavy influence from funk and funk derived dance

> earlier autechre was a heavy influence from funk and funk derived dance > musics which placed an emphasis on strong repetition juxtaposed with > variation in their rhythm sections. While many of those influenced by

them

quoted 1 line took only the variation aspect from this and produce music which aspires

> took only the variation aspect from this and produce music which aspires

to

quoted 2 lines constant non-repetitiveness thus moving sharply away from a danceable or

> constant non-repetitiveness thus moving sharply away from a danceable or > even head-noddable format. An example for this for me is Richard Devine

who

quoted 1 line I do not think is bad, actually very skilled and devoted producer but I

> I do not think is bad, actually very skilled and devoted producer but I

find

quoted 1 line that his emphasis on overwhelming non-repetitive detail makes his music

> that his emphasis on overwhelming non-repetitive detail makes his music

lean

quoted 1 line too heavily towards the cerebral rather than more primitively enjoyable

> too heavily towards the cerebral rather than more primitively enjoyable

side

quoted 2 lines of the musical spectrum for me to listen to with any great regularity. I

> of the musical spectrum for me to listen to with any great regularity. I > certainly respect this aspiration but I also certainly do not want to

listen

quoted 13 lines to it on my headphones when walking around, while I especially enjoy AE in

> to it on my headphones when walking around, while I especially enjoy AE in > this way. > > peace, > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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At 12:08 AM 4/27/01 +0000, idm-digest-help@hyperreal.org wrote:

quoted 3 lines ps.: anyone heard that new hip-hop joint by some prick who tries to render

>ps.: anyone heard that new hip-hop joint by some prick who tries to render >the entire history of the world as driven by white fuck-ups and psychoses >and african perfection?

by 'new' i assume you mean from like six years old and by 'some prick' i assume you mean ras kass. that would probably be 'nature of the threat'

quoted 5 lines And he then proceeds to keep reiterating the

> And he then proceeds to keep reiterating the >epiphany of his that the "white gene is recessive" so that by 2050, he says, >everyone will be brown. I hate that type of shit just as much as white >racist metal. One of the Djs playing it on the radio was actually >advocating the track and hailing it as truth.

you need to listen to the song again, i think. i have neither the time or inclination to debate this topic right now - it's been done to death in the hip hop community and i think a deja search or something would pull up more info than you'd ever need on the topic. Here's Ras' own description i pulled off some interview on the web: "Basically I feel that white people are potential predators and part of what's behind it is that white people are genetically recessive. We're all genetically related to black people. This is just like what Hitler said and what the KKK says, 'we're the master race, but please don't mix with us or we'll get absorbed.' So white people have an incentive to keep other people down. In the song I break down that racism is a system of subjugation created by a ruling class to perpetuate the class that has all the goods. And if white get assimilated they lose that distinction." key word: potential. and i know this has absolutely nothing to do with idm or timbaland, but whatever. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org