IDM Mailing Archive

Sorry about that. Using that dreaded term, I mean. I won't say it again. "Trip Hop", that is. Oh no I said it again. Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop? By "smart" one does not mean to be elitist, but only to ask for music better than all that garbage everyone else listens to. Oops. Looking for surreal mood, beauty, surprise, the ability to withstand repeated listenings and frisbee tests, fine cover art, and beats to die for. Bjork without Bjork, so to speak. Comps? Full-lengths? Looking for music in the vein of Red Snapper, Ghittoni, Moodorama, Nano-head, Anthea, William Orbit, and so on. Vox are fine, if in the right mood. Just say no to Big Beat. Rather listen to some John Bonham for the real thing. Rock is dead, blah blah blah. Does anyone hear/remember laughter? Speaking of Red Snapper, "Prince Blimey" was never released U.S. domestic, was it? Not to be find anywhere at a reasonable price. Loopascoopa is a lovely thing, except for the rather disturbing cover. Reminds me of that numbers game in the school in Riven. Still can't count in Rivenese. ...and while I'm complaining, what's with the rappers on the "Making Bones"? If I wanted rappers, I would have bought - well, no I wouldn't have. The TripHoprisy series looks swell, but also import only in the U.S., and quite expensive. "Mind the Gap" seems to have a mix of the fab and the flab, the fortifying and the nauseating. Some interesting comps recently unearthed: Songs of the Siren 2, Dream Injection 6 (great idm-y series; earlier volumes are more ambient, later volumes more beat-oriented - check out track listings on www.cddb.com), Classica (with the Glass/Aphex track). Art of Noise Debussy album - the cat at A.K.A. music played this for me in-store recently. (Philly is sprouting music stores at an astonishing rate - 5 years ago there no DJ stores, now there are four within walking distance). Disappointing. The raps sound like pandering. I want Art of Noise to push the boundaries of pop, not rehash the cliches. Some of the instrumentals were enjoyable at any rate. AoN samples itself - "Moments in Love" segments appear in toto. I'll stick to "Who's Afraid of..." and "Daft". Some of those instrumentals will make you weak in the knees. Thank you for your patients (sic). (The preceding multiple bad pun was funded by a grant from the National Endowment of the Arts. We wanted to use a much better pun, but the censors would not allow references to varmint sex in a public forum). To answer your gestating question, have not even had any caffeine yet. Babbling, 3

1999-07-15 16:52Joe RiceAt 12:12 PM -0400 7/15/99, Zenon M. Feszczak wrote: >Sorry about that. >Using that dreaded

From:: Joe Rice <joe@justiceleague.com>
To:: Zenon M. Feszczak <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:52:24 -0700
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

At 12:12 PM -0400 7/15/99, Zenon M. Feszczak wrote:

quoted 8 lines Sorry about that.

>Sorry about that. >Using that dreaded term, I mean. >I won't say it again. >"Trip Hop", that is. >Oh no I said it again. > >Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop? >

Kushti - Secret Handshakes [Octopus] and Visit Venus - Music for Space Tourism [Yo Mama] areamong the best albums of the past few years. Either of the last two Nightmares on Wax full lengths are up there, as is the Tek 9 album on SSR. Joe

1999-07-15 18:30martin burbridge> Looking for surreal mood, beauty, surprise, the ability to withstand > repeated listenin

From:: martin burbridge <mbubs@ibm.net>
To:: Zenon M. Feszczak <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:30:24 -0400
Subject:: RE: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 16 lines Looking for surreal mood, beauty, surprise, the ability to withstand

> Looking for surreal mood, beauty, surprise, the ability to withstand > repeated listenings and frisbee tests, fine cover art, and beats to > die for. > Bjork without Bjork, so to speak. > > Looking for music in the vein of Red Snapper, Ghittoni, Moodorama, > Nano-head, Anthea, William Orbit, and so on. Vox are fine, if in the > right mood. > > Speaking of Red Snapper, "Prince Blimey" was never released U.S. > domestic, was it? > Not to be find anywhere at a reasonable price. > > ...and while I'm complaining, what's with the rappers on the > "Making Bones"? > If I wanted rappers, I would have bought - well, no I wouldn't have.

i was bitterly disappointed w/ red snapper's "making bones" - not only does it have not that great rapping, but the music therein sounds more like "reeled and skinned". have they forgotten making the mighty "... blimey". if its not too uptempo to be tr*p-h*p the new live human on fat cat "monostereosis: ..." takes the live stand up bass and drums of prime red snapper, and replaces everything else w/ wicked scratching. great cover art too, but not really soporific enough for the traditional tr*p-h*p tag. no vox. and no, everything bar "making bones" is import to the us i think, not too sure of the "bones" singles. actually the "bogeyman" single w/ the david holmes and two tls mixes, is actually the shit. high vocal content try "mezzanine". low vocal content k&d's "dj kicks". in between, the herbalizer. can't decide between downtempo and uptempo? ninjas "cold krush cuts" (?title?) w/ dj krush taking care of the head nodding, and coldcut concentrating on the mind scrambling is rather nice. the transient waves single on fat cat (again w/ two tls mixes) sounds like tricky gone early acr, instead of up his own arse. anyone know what the rest of/ new fat cat full length by them is like? the track on the "across uneven terrain" veers a bit too close to heroindie to be purely blissful.

quoted 1 line Babbling,

> Babbling,

babylon, -martin

1999-07-15 19:33WOOD man> > ...and while I'm complaining, what's with the rappers on the > > "Making Bones"? > > I

From:: WOOD man <LANGHAM@tessco.com>
To:: martin burbridge <mbubs@ibm.net>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:33:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject:: RE: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: RE: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 3 lines ...and while I'm complaining, what's with the rappers on the

> > ...and while I'm complaining, what's with the rappers on the > > "Making Bones"? > > If I wanted rappers, I would have bought - well, no I wouldn't have.

Well, as a big fan on Making Bones, I feel I must say that the MC Det MAKES the tracks on which he raps, particularly "The Sleepless," which IMHO is worth buying the whole album.

quoted 3 lines i was bitterly disappointed w/ red snapper's "making bones" - not only does

> i was bitterly disappointed w/ red snapper's "making bones" - not only does > it have not that great rapping, but the music therein sounds more like > "reeled and skinned". have they forgotten making the mighty "... blimey".

<snip> I don't know anything about trip hop and I like to complain about the 2 tracks with the female vocals on Making Bones, BUT I think that the album is something to praise, not complain about. --Geoff "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds..." --Will Smith, in reference to the effect of WILD WILD WEST

1999-07-18 09:52Mark StevensOn Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:12:22 -0400, you wrote: >Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip

From:: Mark Stevens <mark@sonance.demon.co.uk>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Cc:: Zenon M. Feszczak <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu>
Date:: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:52:20 GMT
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:12:22 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 1 line Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop?

>Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop?

Archive - Londinium (pisses all over Massive Attack) Bomb the Bass - Clear (the ultimate summer album for the car) Esthero - Breath from Another (beautiful folk/trip-hop hybrid) Kushti - Secret Handshakes (minimalist trip-hop, produced by Plaid) Neotropic - Mr Brubaker's Strawberry Alarm Clock (dark and lush) Nicolette - Let No-one Live Rent Free Inside Your Head (Plaid again) Baby Fox - Dum Dum Baby (fucked up and surreal) Crustation - Bloom (melodic, spacious and blissed out) Howie B - Turn the Dark Off (the more ambient side of trip hop) DJ Shadow - Endtroducing (sample-spotter's paradise) Ragga & the Jack Magic Orchestra - R&TJMO (Icelandic madness) If you pick just one, make it Archive's Londinium. These guys deserve a lot more recognition. Very powerful stuff. There's two vocalists, a male rapper and a female singer (Roya Arab, Leila's sister). Many tracks have this bizarre combination of folky vocals, hip-hop rap, scorching beats and blistering analogue synths that will clear your head out. Lots of instrumental stuff too. This album's from '96, but they've got a new one out soon. The recent single, 'Take My Head', was awesome. They tend to release stuff on vinyl first and then on CD a few months later. -- Mark Stevens http://www.sonance.demon.co.uk/

1999-07-18 19:28Zenon M. FeszczakHello - Back to the original apolitical discourse, just acquired a fab comp of the style u

From:: Zenon M. Feszczak <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:28:55 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

Hello - Back to the original apolitical discourse, just acquired a fab comp of the style under discussion: "Earthrise: Back 2 the Beat" on Shadow. This is mostly instrumental jazzy trip-hop with breakbeats. Artists include Anthea, Mr. Electric Triangle, Nano-Hed, The 13th Sign, Fugitive Elf, etc. 3

1999-07-23 03:00sun rob and his arkestra> Archive - Londinium (pisses all over Massive Attack) > If you pick just one, make it Arc

From:: sun rob and his arkestra <robert.geary@yale.edu>
To:: Mark Stevens <mark@sonance.demon.co.uk>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>, Zenon M. Feszczak <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu>
Date:: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:00:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 10 lines Archive - Londinium (pisses all over Massive Attack)

> Archive - Londinium (pisses all over Massive Attack) > If you pick just one, make it Archive's Londinium. These guys deserve > a lot more recognition. Very powerful stuff. There's two vocalists, a > male rapper and a female singer (Roya Arab, Leila's sister). Many > tracks have this bizarre combination of folky vocals, hip-hop rap, > scorching beats and blistering analogue synths that will clear your > head out. Lots of instrumental stuff too. This album's from '96, but > they've got a new one out soon. The recent single, 'Take My Head', was > awesome. They tend to release stuff on vinyl first and then on CD a > few months later.

wow, I never knew anyone else had EVER heard of archive. I wholeheartedly second the recommendation- best trip hop from the 'hot' era, 95-97 or so. my only criticism is that it occasionally sounds like a portishead variant. not derivative, mind you, but variant. the rapping adds a new dimension, tho. very glad they're putting out something new...I still can't find their first disc on CD. oh, and to continue the 6 degrees action...karl from underworld plays bass on a number of tracks, and i think helps produce a few. cheekily referenced, i believe, by the sample of his vocals on 'skyscraper.' rob (oh, and listening to it now, "old artist" definitely sounds like the blueprint for the recent massive attack song with liz fraser...)

1999-07-15 21:01Darren KeastBeen said many times before, but almost anything on Pork is fantastic.

From:: Darren Keast <darren@skinny.com>
Cc:: Zenon M. Feszczak <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:01:28 -0800
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

Been said many times before, but almost anything on Pork is fantastic.

1999-07-16 12:45Irene McCI don't suppose you can say "trip hop" without thinking of Cup of Tea. Actually I picked u

From:: Irene McC <substar@iafrica.com>
To:: <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:45:05 +0200
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

I don't suppose you can say "trip hop" without thinking of Cup of Tea. Actually I picked up a very cheap sale comp just earlier this week titled "Percolator - music for a cafe culture" on the Nettwerk label from '95 with MC900ft Jesus, Delerium, Single Gun Theory, The Grassy Knoll and others represented. Very easy on the ear without being drossy (imo). Although it is not recent, as the original query requested. I *

1999-07-15 22:09Dave Segal>From: "Zenon M. Feszczak" <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: (idm)

From:: Dave Segal <segal@altpress.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:09:16 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 5 lines From: "Zenon M. Feszczak" <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu>

>From: "Zenon M. Feszczak" <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop >Date: Thu, Jul 15, 1999, 12:12 PM >

quoted 22 lines Sorry about that.

>Sorry about that. >Using that dreaded term, I mean. >I won't say it again. >"Trip Hop", that is. >Oh no I said it again. > >Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop? > >By "smart" one does not mean to be elitist, but only to ask for music >better than all that garbage everyone else listens to. Oops. > >Looking for surreal mood, beauty, surprise, the ability to withstand >repeated listenings and frisbee tests, fine cover art, and beats to >die for. >Bjork without Bjork, so to speak. > >Comps? >Full-lengths? > >Looking for music in the vein of Red Snapper, Ghittoni, Moodorama, >Nano-head, Anthea, William Orbit, and so on. Vox are fine, if in the >right mood.

Lascelles- Rock Oil (Orange Egg) Req- One and Frequency (both on Skint) Howie B- Snatch (Pussyfoot) Dave Segal Managing Editor/Alternative Press Reviews/BPM/Reissue Redux/Origins Of Cool Secret Ions on WCSB Thursdays 9-11PM EST www.wcsb.org np: snoop dogg- no limit top dogg [no limit] (as awful as you'd think)

1999-07-15 23:37Darren Keast> > > Lascelles- Rock Oil (Orange Egg) > Does anyone know if Orange Egg is still around, a

From:: Darren Keast <darren@skinny.com>
To:: Dave Segal <segal@altpress.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:37:25 -0800
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 4 lines Lascelles- Rock Oil (Orange Egg)

> > > Lascelles- Rock Oil (Orange Egg) >

Does anyone know if Orange Egg is still around, and if not, when did they go down? thanks, darren

1999-07-16 01:32mtheulthetant>Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop? Rakim and Common Sense always work for me.

From:: mtheulthetant <multsanta@sprynet.com>
To:: <feszczak@sas.upenn.edu>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:32:41 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 1 line Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop?

>Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop?

Rakim and Common Sense always work for me.... seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is watering down another culture's music to make it more acceptable for a white suburban audience. that's like calling limp bizkit smart...

1999-07-16 02:49cspot@hyperreal.org>seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is >watering down ano

From:: <cspot@hyperreal.org>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 3 lines seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is

>seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is >watering down another culture's music to make it more acceptable for a >white suburban audience.

You mean like Aphex and Squarepusher did with jungle? C.

1999-07-16 03:03mtheulthetantAt 07:49 PM 7/15/99 -0700, cspot@hyperreal.org wrote: >>seriously, how can there be 'smart

From:: mtheulthetant <multsanta@sprynet.com>
To:: <cspot@hyperreal.org>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:03:14 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

At 07:49 PM 7/15/99 -0700, cspot@hyperreal.org wrote:

quoted 5 lines seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is

>>seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is >>watering down another culture's music to make it more acceptable for a >>white suburban audience. > >You mean like Aphex and Squarepusher did with jungle?

exactly!

1999-07-19 22:07Maer Ben-YisraelOn Thu, 15 Jul 1999 cspot@hyperreal.org wrote: > >seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip

From:: Maer Ben-Yisrael <pnsnv@mich.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:07:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: (idm) in defense of trip-hop (sorta)
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 cspot@hyperreal.org wrote:

quoted 3 lines seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is

> >seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is > >watering down another culture's music to make it more acceptable for a > >white suburban audience.

They're "watering it down" with other influences like Jazz, Funk, and Soul. Not to mention an electronic influence. If you think trip-hop is watered down for white kids with bad hair and ugly clothes, check out Sharpshooters on Shadow records and any of the trip on on Soup Disk (Cappablack). Best, -Maer...

1999-07-16 03:33Tom Millarmtheulthetant wrote: > > At 07:49 PM 7/15/99 -0700, cspot@hyperreal.org wrote: > >>serious

From:: Tom Millar <tmillar@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
To:: mtheulthetant <multsanta@sprynet.com>
Cc:: <cspot@hyperreal.org>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:33:35 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

mtheulthetant wrote:

quoted 9 lines At 07:49 PM 7/15/99 -0700, cspot@hyperreal.org wrote:

> > At 07:49 PM 7/15/99 -0700, cspot@hyperreal.org wrote: > >>seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is > >>watering down another culture's music to make it more acceptable for a > >>white suburban audience. > > > >You mean like Aphex and Squarepusher did with jungle? > > exactly!

I hope this is at least partially tongue-in-cheek. Either that or someone's trying pretty hard to "keep it real." Is this anything like what Benny Goodman & Paul Whiteman did with big band? Give it a rest. Why is it so important that rhythmic mumbling about "bitches" and "benjamins" be included on top of downtempo breaks? Boot to the head. Tom

1999-07-16 04:12mtheulthetantAt 11:33 PM 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote: > > >mtheulthetant wrote: >> >> At 07:49 PM 7/15/99

From:: mtheulthetant <multsanta@sprynet.com>
To:: <tmillar@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:12:48 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

At 11:33 PM 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 14 lines mtheulthetant wrote:

> > >mtheulthetant wrote: >> >> At 07:49 PM 7/15/99 -0700, cspot@hyperreal.org wrote: >> >>seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is >> >>watering down another culture's music to make it more acceptable for a >> >>white suburban audience. >> > >> >You mean like Aphex and Squarepusher did with jungle? >> >> exactly! > >I hope this is at least partially tongue-in-cheek.

well the comment about aphex and squarepusher is, but the trip hop isn't.

quoted 2 lines Give it a rest. Why is it so important that rhythmic mumbling about

>Give it a rest. Why is it so important that rhythmic mumbling about >"bitches" and "benjamins" be included on top of downtempo breaks?

this response makes me very sad. let me put this in perspective.. have you ever had someone come up to you and say, 'whats the point of that electronic music? it's all just people with funny hair and nose rings screaming the same phrase over and over again'. similar situation. generalizations will get you nowhere, one puff daddy video doesn't make you an expert...

quoted 2 lines Boot

>Boot >to the head.

i do hope they're a pair of Timbs. keepin' it real, repin' nu jeru to tha fullest xtent mlt

1999-07-16 04:10laermOn Fri, 16 Jul 1999, mtheulthetant wrote: > >> >>seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip

From:: laerm <laerm@voicenet.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, mtheulthetant wrote:

quoted 31 lines seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is

> >> >>seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is > >> >>watering down another culture's music to make it more acceptable for a > >> >>white suburban audience. > >> > > >> >You mean like Aphex and Squarepusher did with jungle? > >> > >> exactly! > > > >I hope this is at least partially tongue-in-cheek. > > well the comment about aphex and squarepusher is, but the trip hop isn't. > > >Give it a rest. Why is it so important that rhythmic mumbling about > >"bitches" and "benjamins" be included on top of downtempo breaks? > > this response makes me very sad. > > let me put this in perspective.. have you ever had someone come up to you > and say, 'whats the point of that electronic music? it's all just people > with funny hair and nose rings screaming the same phrase over and over > again'. similar situation. > > generalizations will get you nowhere, one puff daddy video doesn't make you > an expert... > > >Boot > >to the head. > > i do hope they're a pair of Timbs. > > keepin' it real, repin' nu jeru to tha fullest xtent

hey, anyone wanna buy my hip-hop, jazz, dub, blues, and techno music collections? apparently my pervasive whiteness says i can't own these records anymore. something about "misappropriation of culture"... * #### a disturbance in a system. #### laerm. @voicenet.com ##:# icq:5562209 the superfluous, a very necessary thing.

1999-07-16 05:17mtheulthetant>hey, anyone wanna buy my hip-hop, jazz, dub, blues, and techno music >collections? appare

From:: mtheulthetant <multsanta@sprynet.com>
To:: laerm <laerm@voicenet.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:17:27 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 3 lines hey, anyone wanna buy my hip-hop, jazz, dub, blues, and techno music

>hey, anyone wanna buy my hip-hop, jazz, dub, blues, and techno music >collections? apparently my pervasive whiteness says i can't own these >records anymore. something about "misappropriation of culture"...

obviously you're missing my point. i NEVER implied that white people can't listen to these genres. i'm white, i still enjoy these genre. race is not an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, that's sucks. I still don't understand how you could have gotten the racial impression from my previous post. and just to clarify, i have no problem with, say, much of the Mo' Wax roster, Shadow, Vibert, Ninja Tuners, because these are people who are doing it out of respect for hip hop, the problem enlies in the 'scene' that was spawned, mainly from Mo' Wax and 'Endtroducing', where it was deemed profitable to water down hip hop into a pigeon hole.

1999-07-16 06:05eric hill>an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is >specifically watered dow

From:: eric hill <ehill@best.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 2 lines an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is

>an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is >specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if

specifically, how is it getting watered down? surely you aren't suggesting cultural absolutism, where the only way to express influences should be to create things that overtly resemble those influences. this is a heck of a way to argue against music one doesn't like. fucking apt subject header, i can see this one going on for weeks. eric

1999-07-16 11:00nick w> and just to clarify, i have no problem with, say, much of the Mo' Wax > roster, Shadow,

From:: nick w <mobfhnjw@fs2.scg.man.ac.uk>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:00:35 GMT+1
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 5 lines and just to clarify, i have no problem with, say, much of the Mo' Wax

> and just to clarify, i have no problem with, say, much of the Mo' Wax > roster, Shadow, Vibert, Ninja Tuners, because these are people who are > doing it out of respect for hip hop, the problem enlies in the 'scene' that > was spawned, mainly from Mo' Wax and 'Endtroducing', where it was deemed > profitable to water down hip hop into a pigeon hole.

Sounds like your missing the point of the original enquiry. Zenon M. Feszczak asked for:

quoted 3 lines Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop?

> Anyway, any recommendations on smart trip hop? > By "smart" one does not mean to be elitist, but only to ask for > music better than all that garbage everyone else listens to. Oops.

That sounds like he wants to hear about stuff that _isn't_ the stuff that big corporate companies flooded the market with to make money. I don't know if people like Fila Brazilia make music that is 'out of respect for hip-hop' but I don't care. It's fucking good. Nick

1999-07-16 11:40martin burbridge> obviously you're missing my point. i NEVER implied that white > people can't > listen to

From:: martin burbridge <mbubs@ibm.net>
To:: mtheulthetant <multsanta@sprynet.com>, laerm <laerm@voicenet.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:40:04 -0400
Subject:: RE: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 5 lines obviously you're missing my point. i NEVER implied that white

> obviously you're missing my point. i NEVER implied that white > people can't > listen to these genres. i'm white, i still enjoy these genre. race is not > an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is > specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption.

as trip-hop was initially coined in reference to massive attack and tricky, non - white (except 3d), and definately inner city (bristol) based, i would still take exception to this statement. if you want to say portishead and sneaker pimps suck, then by all means, you won't find me quibbling... ...except maybe to also mention vanilla ice and eminem. plus check ice-t's second body count lp cover. he knew pretty well the appeal of of extreme gangsta and hip-hop among white suburbanites. -martin

1999-07-19 22:11Maer Ben-Yisraelthis is the dumbest thing I've ever read on the IDM list. are you some sort of philistine?

From:: Maer Ben-Yisrael <pnsnv@mich.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:11:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

this is the dumbest thing I've ever read on the IDM list. are you some sort of philistine?

quoted 17 lines obviously you're missing my point. i NEVER implied that white people can't

> > obviously you're missing my point. i NEVER implied that white people can't > listen to these genres. i'm white, i still enjoy these genre. race is not > an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is > specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if > you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the > culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down > to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, that's sucks. > I still don't understand how you could have gotten the racial impression > from my previous post. > > and just to clarify, i have no problem with, say, much of the Mo' Wax > roster, Shadow, Vibert, Ninja Tuners, because these are people who are > doing it out of respect for hip hop, the problem enlies in the 'scene' that > was spawned, mainly from Mo' Wax and 'Endtroducing', where it was deemed > profitable to water down hip hop into a pigeon hole. >

1999-07-16 05:27Jeff BarszczAt 12:10 AM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, mtheulthetant wrote: > >> >> >

From:: Jeff Barszcz <jmb@vt.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:27:41 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

At 12:10 AM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 37 lines On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, mtheulthetant wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, mtheulthetant wrote: > >> >> >>seriously, how can there be 'smart' trip hop when all they're doing is >> >> >>watering down another culture's music to make it more acceptable for a >> >> >>white suburban audience. >> >> > >> >> >You mean like Aphex and Squarepusher did with jungle? >> >> >> >> exactly! >> > >> >I hope this is at least partially tongue-in-cheek. >> >> well the comment about aphex and squarepusher is, but the trip hop isn't. >> >> >Give it a rest. Why is it so important that rhythmic mumbling about >> >"bitches" and "benjamins" be included on top of downtempo breaks? >> >> this response makes me very sad. >> >> let me put this in perspective.. have you ever had someone come up to you >> and say, 'whats the point of that electronic music? it's all just people >> with funny hair and nose rings screaming the same phrase over and over >> again'. similar situation. >> >> generalizations will get you nowhere, one puff daddy video doesn't make you >> an expert... >> >> >Boot >> >to the head. >> >> i do hope they're a pair of Timbs. >> >> keepin' it real, repin' nu jeru to tha fullest xtent > >hey, anyone wanna buy my hip-hop, jazz, dub, blues, and techno music >collections? apparently my pervasive whiteness says i can't own these >records anymore. something about "misappropriation of culture"...

Yeah, I think us crackers can only respectfully listen to Mozart and shit these days. Seriously, what is watered-down about instrumental hip hop? I don't get it. Of course there are weak as shit "trip hop" acts out there. There's terrible music made in any genre. I think the term "trip hop" just has bad associations. BTW, [Squarepusher is to jungle as Kenny G. is to jazz] jus' don't sound right to me. It's guys like Squarepusher and Plug that got me interested in d'n'b. They actually made it interesting (as opposed to all that ragga bullshit with the whack-ass MCs and the boring as fuck breaks). Jeff

1999-07-16 05:33Jeff BarszczAt 01:17 AM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >>hey, anyone wanna buy my hip-hop, jazz, dub, blues

From:: Jeff Barszcz <jmb@vt.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:33:39 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

At 01:17 AM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 19 lines hey, anyone wanna buy my hip-hop, jazz, dub, blues, and techno music

>>hey, anyone wanna buy my hip-hop, jazz, dub, blues, and techno music >>collections? apparently my pervasive whiteness says i can't own these >>records anymore. something about "misappropriation of culture"... > >obviously you're missing my point. i NEVER implied that white people can't >listen to these genres. i'm white, i still enjoy these genre. race is not >an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is >specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if >you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down >to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, that's sucks. >I still don't understand how you could have gotten the racial impression >from my previous post. > >and just to clarify, i have no problem with, say, much of the Mo' Wax >roster, Shadow, Vibert, Ninja Tuners, because these are people who are >doing it out of respect for hip hop, the problem enlies in the 'scene' that >was spawned, mainly from Mo' Wax and 'Endtroducing', where it was deemed >profitable to water down hip hop into a pigeon hole.

What is all this about culture? Fuck culture. It's music for christ's sake! If it's all about culture than from what cultures is "real" hip hop stealing from? (funk, jazz, r&b, soul, rock, etc.)? Anyway, fuck culture (clothing, hairstyles, whatever the hell you mean), it has nothing to do with good music. Jeff

1999-07-16 13:03Kelley HackettIts quite good that another caucasian sees this Salient, indispensable point. For they did

From:: Kelley Hackett <khackett@aba.iupui.edu>
To:: 'mtheulthetant' <multsanta@sprynet.com>
Cc:: 'idm@hyperreal.org' <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:03:49 -0500
Subject:: RE: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

Its quite good that another caucasian sees this Salient, indispensable point. For they didnt know that U where white, too. I wonder if that Bitch ass Tom is sucking on that Boot hes trying to lift off the ground.......... Laerm, looks like your ass got it too. Let me stay out of it though, cuz he can teach U, I'll just flame ya with those assinine comments! Multsanta, whoever U R, keep teaching these "Open minded people will ya. Thanks! H-2 tha Muthafuckn k!

quoted 28 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: mtheulthetant [SMTP:multsanta@sprynet.com] > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 12:17 AM > To: laerm; idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop > > >hey, anyone wanna buy my hip-hop, jazz, dub, blues, and techno music > >collections? apparently my pervasive whiteness says i can't own these > >records anymore. something about "misappropriation of culture"... > > obviously you're missing my point. i NEVER implied that white people > can't > listen to these genres. i'm white, i still enjoy these genre. race is not > an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is > specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if > you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the > culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it > down > to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, that's sucks. > I still don't understand how you could have gotten the racial impression > from my previous post. > > and just to clarify, i have no problem with, say, much of the Mo' Wax > roster, Shadow, Vibert, Ninja Tuners, because these are people who are > doing it out of respect for hip hop, the problem enlies in the 'scene' > that > was spawned, mainly from Mo' Wax and 'Endtroducing', where it was deemed > profitable to water down hip hop into a pigeon hole.

1999-07-16 18:23Tomas Jirku>an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is >specifically watered dow

From:: Tomas Jirku <tomas@yirku.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:23:00 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 5 lines an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is

>an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is >specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if >you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down >to make it more palatable for people of your own culture,

where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain the validity of it to us all. tomas

1999-07-16 18:45eric hill>>you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >>culture. When s

From:: eric hill <ehill@best.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:45:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 6 lines you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the

>>you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >>culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down >>to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, > >where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain >the validity of it to us all.

i think it's kind of like when someone creates techno music, but doesn't like DJ's. eric

1999-07-16 19:32nordberg> >an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is > >specifically watered

From:: nordberg <KIDWELL@tessco.com>
To:: <tomas@yirku.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:32:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 8 lines an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is

> >an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is > >specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if > >you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the > >culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down > >to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, > > where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain > the validity of it to us all.

i might be totally wrong on this, but i think Multsanta is referring to the fact that hip-hop music isn't just cool noises and slick beats. Was it Chuck D? that said "Rap is the CNN of the street." i don't think it's THAT outrageous for Multsanta to have beef with artists taking the music that is tied inseparably to the urban culture of america's cities, distilling the political and cultural element out of it completely (and please no one try and t ell us that there is no political element in rap & hip-hop) and turning it into an uncharged, sterilized + acceptable way for white folks to 'get their groove on.' i don't really think anyone is saying trip-hop or whatever is ethically wrong or anything, just that trip-hop and other caucasion attempts at harnessing the spirit of hip-hop just don't do it for most people with an intimate attachment to hip-hop and the culture it is borne of. ,rj../ ___,">www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1

1999-07-16 19:19mtheulthetantAt 02:32 PM 7/16/99 -0500, nordberg wrote: >> >an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem i

From:: mtheulthetant <multsanta@sprynet.com>
To:: nordberg <KIDWELL@tessco.com>, <tomas@yirku.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:19:29 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

At 02:32 PM 7/16/99 -0500, nordberg wrote:

quoted 4 lines an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is

>> >an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is >> >specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if >> >you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >> >culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it

down

quoted 25 lines to make it more palatable for people of your own culture,

>> >to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, >> >> where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain >> the validity of it to us all. > >i might be totally wrong on this, but i think >Multsanta is referring to the fact that hip-hop >music isn't just cool noises and slick beats. >Was it Chuck D? that said "Rap is the CNN of >the street." i don't think it's THAT outrageous >for Multsanta to have beef with artists taking >the music that is tied inseparably to the urban >culture of america's cities, distilling the political >and cultural element out of it completely (and please >no one try and t ell us that there is no political >element in rap & hip-hop) and turning it into >an uncharged, sterilized + acceptable way for >white folks to 'get their groove on.' > >i don't really think anyone is saying trip-hop >or whatever is ethically wrong or anything, just >that trip-hop and other caucasion attempts at >harnessing the spirit of hip-hop just don't do >it for most people with an intimate attachment >to hip-hop and the culture it is borne of.

thank you! rjyan hit the nail on the head there. when i wrote that previous post it was 2:30 am and i really wasn't communicating my ideas properly. it didn't occur to me that i was speaking to people who have no concept of the extreme cultural value of hip hop (no offense) np: mr. bungle- california... this is excellent. everyone get this now.

1999-07-16 18:50Ernesto Ikerd>i don't really think anyone is saying trip-hop >or whatever is ethically wrong or anythin

From:: Ernesto Ikerd <IkerdEA@lmtas.lmco.com>
To:: nordberg <KIDWELL@tessco.com>, Inca Door Mats <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:50:18 -0500
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 6 lines i don't really think anyone is saying trip-hop

>i don't really think anyone is saying trip-hop >or whatever is ethically wrong or anything, just >that trip-hop and other caucasion attempts at >harnessing the spirit of hip-hop just don't do >it for most people with an intimate attachment >to hip-hop and the culture it is borne of.

Yeah, That, plus white dudes frontin' is WHACK... ;) e BTW- has anyone caught some of those NOISY, F*cked up beats in the new Cypress Hill !!!! yum-yum-YUM! me like! Ernesto Ikerd, (817) 763-4795 Company Graphics, Dept 17, MZ-1156 Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems Fort Worth, Texas

1999-07-16 19:01Kelley HackettI didnt make the comment but I will help U out! He probably made the comment out of a luci

From:: Kelley Hackett <khackett@aba.iupui.edu>
To:: 'tomas@yirku.com' <tomas@yirku.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:01:22 -0500
Subject:: RE: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

I didnt make the comment but I will help U out! He probably made the comment out of a lucid understanding of the cultural climate in America! He probably knows the long history of cultural rapping of other cultures by American Capitalist! In fact for a more detailed perspective, he probably understands that when a large cultural force and or movement emerges in African American, Latino, Hispanic, Asian cultures and others, they always become "watered" down for wider consumption, which consequently leads to more money for??????? He probably thought, when making the comment, U know, I have to be honest to myself and drop my racial and National pride, its funny how American commercialism and Capitalism has engulfed cultural movements Like Reggae, Jazz, Blues and now hip-hop! And if he didnt think all this to his self, I sure did when he posted it! Hk!

quoted 17 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Tomas Jirku [SMTP:tomas@yirku.com] > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:23 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop > > >an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is > >specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if > >you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the > >culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it > down > >to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, > > where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain > the validity of it to us all. > > tomas

1999-07-16 19:17Danny Wyatt> -----Original Message----- > From: idm-owner@hyperreal.org [mailto:idm-owner@hyperreal.o

From:: Danny Wyatt <danny@arbitrary.com>
To:: Kelley Hackett <khackett@aba.iupui.edu>, <tomas@yirku.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:17:54 -0400
Subject:: RE: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: RE: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 6 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: idm-owner@hyperreal.org [mailto:idm-owner@hyperreal.org]On Behalf > Of Kelley Hackett > > He probably knows the long history of > cultural rapping of other cultures by American Capitalist!

I for one, was incensed when hugely succesful American Capitalist Sean Combs raped (or, indeed, rapped) a British pop song for his own gain. Who does that ignorant American think he is?

1999-07-16 19:21Tomas Jirkui understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he decided to narrow the

From:: Tomas Jirku <tomas@yirku.com>
To:: nordberg <KIDWELL@tessco.com>
Cc:: <multsanta@sprynet.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:21:29 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he decided to narrow the blame on "suburbanites". you think pop culture is the product of and for the suburbs? this division does not exist in pop culture. pop culture is all-emcompassing. in hiphop the division you're referring to is: ghetto ("keepin' it real") and non-ghetto ("watered down for mass consumption"). tomas (disgruntled suburbanite. bored, but happy to be away from the noise and pollution of the city.) nordberg wrote:

quoted 13 lines i might be totally wrong on this, but i think

> i might be totally wrong on this, but i think > Multsanta is referring to the fact that hip-hop > music isn't just cool noises and slick beats. > Was it Chuck D? that said "Rap is the CNN of > the street." i don't think it's THAT outrageous > for Multsanta to have beef with artists taking > the music that is tied inseparably to the urban > culture of america's cities, distilling the political > and cultural element out of it completely (and please > no one try and t ell us that there is no political > element in rap & hip-hop) and turning it into > an uncharged, sterilized + acceptable way for > white folks to 'get their groove on.'

1999-07-16 19:52mtheulthetantAt 03:21 PM 7/16/99 -0400, Tomas Jirku wrote: >i understood that much from the beginning.

From:: mtheulthetant <multsanta@sprynet.com>
To:: <tomas@yirku.com>, nordberg <KIDWELL@tessco.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:52:28 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

At 03:21 PM 7/16/99 -0400, Tomas Jirku wrote:

quoted 2 lines i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he

>i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he >decided to narrow the blame on "suburbanites".

i'm not blaming anyone but the trip hop producers. if someone from the ghetto waters down hip hop to sell it to suburbanites it's the exact same situation.

quoted 2 lines you think pop culture is

>you think pop culture is >the product of and for the suburbs?

no, pop culture is usually the product of the ghetto, then watered down and produced by marketable white musicians for consumption by all.

quoted 4 lines this division does not exist in pop

>this division does not exist in pop >culture. pop culture is all-emcompassing. in hiphop the division you're >referring to is: ghetto ("keepin' it real") and non-ghetto ("watered >down for mass consumption").

i understand that, but remember, we're (at least i'm) not talking about pop culture in it's entirety, but rather, specifically trip hop, which has virtually no presence in the ghetto... how often do you hear dj shadow pumpin' out of a ghetto blaster?

1999-07-16 20:53Moonlight>i understand that, but remember, we're (at least i'm) not talking about pop >culture in i

From:: Moonlight <roesch@augsburg.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:53:50 -0700
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 4 lines i understand that, but remember, we're (at least i'm) not talking about pop

>i understand that, but remember, we're (at least i'm) not talking about pop >culture in it's entirety, but rather, specifically trip hop, which has >virtually no presence in the ghetto... how often do you hear dj shadow >pumpin' out of a ghetto blaster?

WTF? First you're complaining about how shit is watered down for mass consumption, and then you say how the fact that people don't play shodaw out of their boomboxes is evidence that he's watered it down. Fuck no. The big hip hop has usually watered it down. That's how they get big. DJ Shadow is all about keeping hiphop real (or at least trying). Check his production for latyrx among others. And i hear much of the stuff he's produced coming out of the best hip hop soundsystems in Minneapolis. Also, i know lots of hip-hop heads that i've turned on to tricky. Maybe the reason that the original ghetto culture you talk about hasn't embraced trip-hop variants is that it hasn't been marketed to them. While pork artists for example take a hip-hop beat (which is just about everywhere nowadays), their lack of vocals has nothing to do with marketing and making their music accessible to suburbanites. Hello, maybe it's just some people's artistic vision to make non-boring instrumental hip-hop. Maybe they don't want an MC. Maybe they don't want to be political. So what? If you're gonna complain about shit like that, complain about Ma$e, the Fugees, K-ci and Jojo, etc. _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu University of Idaho / Moscow / ID / USA Visit my Fila Brazillia/Pork Recordings fan site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "Because success needs killing" TRICKY

1999-07-16 21:21rkidwell> i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he > decided to narrow

From:: rkidwell <KIDWELL@tessco.com>
To:: <tomas@yirku.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:21:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 6 lines i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he

> i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he > decided to narrow the blame on "suburbanites". you think pop culture is > the product of and for the suburbs? this division does not exist in pop > culture. pop culture is all-emcompassing. in hiphop the division you're > referring to is: ghetto ("keepin' it real") and non-ghetto ("watered > down for mass consumption").

pop culture, of course, reigns well beyond the suburbs. but, i don't think that it's questionable that the major influencers of pop culture -- big business and to an extent, the govenment -- are controlled almost exclusively by white people with lots of money. who tend to dwell in the suburbs. i don't think multsanta or i are trying to say that EVERYONE who lives in the suburbs is guilty of some ethical crime, rather it's just a convenient label, and i shall retract it and replace it with "fatcats" or "cracker bourgeoisie" if you'd like. ,rj../ ___,">www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1

1999-07-16 19:40david turgeon> He probably thought, when making the comment, U know, I have to be honest to > myself an

From:: david turgeon <eerie@mnemonic.net>
To:: Kelley Hackett <khackett@aba.iupui.edu>
Cc:: 'tomas@yirku.com' <tomas@yirku.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:40:09 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 4 lines He probably thought, when making the comment, U know, I have to be honest to

> He probably thought, when making the comment, U know, I have to be honest to > myself and drop my racial and National pride, its funny how American > commercialism and Capitalism has engulfed cultural movements Like Reggae, > Jazz, Blues and now hip-hop!

is there a cultural movement that they did _not_ engulf (or that they aren't going to)? at this point it's not even a matter of 'capitalist pigs whitening black music' -- the industry's selling point is that they can use _anything_ that shows potential high sales figures, & with a few exceptions, 'political hip-hop' isn't high on that list. however, hip-hop in general has a _huge_ appeal nowadays, & guess what, the industry noticed. by owning the media who distribute such fabrications & limiting the amount of different musical genres that are accessible through such media, they (perhaps not even intentionally -- corporatism isn't known to have much intent other than self-interest) mislead everybody into thinking that, yes, if these are so high in our charts, it's because they have 'talent' or 'skill' or that they make 'good songs'. this isn't to say that the problem with hip-hop being recuperated by people without a clue where it comes from is a bening one -- but the fact of the matter is, this happens with every genre that shows an iota of potential popularity; thanks to the 'system' (or rather, lack of it) which allowed such corporate monstrosities as universal, sony, bmg, emi... -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

1999-07-16 20:23Tomas Jirku>>>you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >>>culture. When

From:: Tomas Jirku <tomas@yirku.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Cc:: <ehill@best.com>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:23:30 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Trip Hop You Don't Stop

quoted 9 lines you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the

>>>you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >>>culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down >>>to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, >> >>where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain >>the validity of it to us all. > >i think it's kind of like when someone creates techno music, but doesn't >like DJ's.

ouch. was i asking for that one? oh well, ouch all the same! tomas