IDM Mailing Archive

Robert Merlak writes:

quoted 3 lines You sound like my friends, who keep telling me that I should go to see the

> You sound like my friends, who keep telling me that I should go to see the > Rolling Stones live in Zagreb (capitol of Croatia). They've told me almost > the same thing you said here ... amazing, great show, once in a lifetime,

The difference is that The Stones are irrelevant and haven't put out a decent record since Brian Jones learned he couldn't backstroke. (-: They trundle out horrific versions of what was even good stuff (I've seen plenty of video tapes of them through the years, including a show from the Voodoo Lounge tour that was on PBS just 2 months ago), and their new stuff is completely forgettable. This is not the case with Kraftwerk. Their "old stuff" is timeless and sounds completely up to date, as far as I'm concerned. While one of their "new songs" isn't necessarily on the same par as the other material, the extension to "Airwaves" was as great as anything I've heard lately. It's getting a bit tiresome to see (here and on other lists I'm on) all these "Classic Rock" putdowns and other such comparisons. This is Kraftwerk we're talking about, for fuck's sake.

quoted 1 line I wouldn't go to Kraftwerk if they are playing in my city...

> I wouldn't go to Kraftwerk if they are playing in my city...

Your loss, really. You'll listen to Dad's old records but you won't go see the people who helped spawn the ones you bought which came out yesterday ...

quoted 2 lines I don't want to give my money for stunning show and a stunning production,

> I don't want to give my money for stunning show and a stunning production, > because I don't care about it.

That's sad, because there's something to be said for seeing the results of the work of very talented people that have put something extremely creative together and which you don't see the likes of very often. After a while even I get tired of Yet Another Rave with a single lazer, a few Intellibeams and a couple of hand-painted day-glo posters, y'know?

quoted 3 lines My interest is Techno as

> My interest is Techno as > I said and I can listen to Techno in my nice quiet room, in a comfortable > chair, without looking at a bunch of idiots whistling and shouting...

So you've never been to a rave then either? This is getting really depressing. People denying themselves great experiences because of preconceived notions, rather than the reality. Let me put it another way: have you heard *anyone* who saw Kraftwerk in San Francisco or Los Angeles say it was shite? Or anything else other than amazing/wonderful? Are we *all* really that wrong, on Crack or out of touch? I think not ... (Then again, I remember seeing slaggings of their Tribal Gathering performance. But then I guess we're just stupid Americans, blinded by our rabid idolatry.) - Greg P.S. I'm not going to bother arguing with Stuart/Silicon about this. He seems to have that 20-something "Kill Yr. Idols" mentality and has a lot of problems with the notion of Kraftwerk As Myth that I simply do not share, so there's little point in a point-by-point refutation of his arguments. He can sit and kvetch about the media fuelling the myth while I deal with them as a *real entity* that I just saw in the flesh about 36 hours ago. (Though I must say that anyone who thinks Karl Bartos was "taking a crack at something new" by releasing Electrik Music's "Kraftwerk Lite" album - or that generic 4-on-the-floor track on T.E.Ex. 1 - has a mighty strange definition of "new".)

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Greg Earle wrote:

quoted 6 lines Robert Merlak writes:

> Robert Merlak writes: > > My interest is Techno as > > I said and I can listen to Techno in my nice quiet room, in a comfortable > > chair, without looking at a bunch of idiots whistling and shouting... > > So you've never been to a rave then either?

To not see techno, in the hands of a gifted DJ, with a crowd who is up for it, is to entirely miss the point. For me, seeing Traxx go off, or even my friend DJ Alert, who can infuse their sets with real personality and emotion, is and will be a peak experience. And Ferenc in full effect? Omigawd! It makes standing around, bored silly by the latest wack house DJ worth it. As for Kraftwerk, I've no doubt that anyone who sees one of their shows with a positive mindset is going to have the time of their lives. The Rolling Stones have been in it strictly for the money for 20 years. Their last good record was "Some Girls" and that came out late 70s. Kraftwerk may be doing the same thing 20 years on, but their music is by their own admission an industrial product, and they've gotten their manufacturing process down to sub-micron tolerances. That perhaps deserves a different sort of attention and appreciation than someone trying to push the state of the art, but it still deserves massive respect.

On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:32:30AM -0500, Chaircrusher wrote:

quoted 8 lines My interest is Techno as I said and I can listen to Techno in my nice

>>> My interest is Techno as I said and I can listen to Techno in my nice >>> quiet room, in a comfortable chair, without looking at a bunch of >>> idiots whistling and shouting... >> >> So you've never been to a rave then either? > > To not see techno, in the hands of a gifted DJ, with a crowd who is up > for it, is to entirely miss the point.

Where do I go to buy the Techno/Rave Bible so I can quote it chapter and verse like you do? God forbid anyone find a way to enjoy the music that differs from how you enjoy it, hm? -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Lazlo Nibble wrote:

quoted 8 lines On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:32:30AM -0500, Chaircrusher wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:32:30AM -0500, Chaircrusher wrote: > > > To not see techno, in the hands of a gifted DJ, with a crowd who is up > > for it, is to entirely miss the point. > > Where do I go to buy the Techno/Rave Bible so I can quote it chapter and verse > like you do? >

I got my copy at Goodwill Industries. It was under a stack of Crystal Gayle records.

quoted 3 lines God forbid anyone find a way to enjoy the music that differs from how you

> God forbid anyone find a way to enjoy the music that differs from how you > enjoy it, hm? >

I don't care what you do to enjoy listening to music. I'm just saying that no art is context free, and the context of techno is the club & party. That it works other places is great, but it seems to me that someone who listens to techno, but looks down their nose at techno's target audience, isn't really getting it. The records are what they are -- some of them may work in your living room, which is great. But a good DJ can create an exciting, novel experience with records. It's the difference between watching a movie at home on video versus seeing it in a theatre with a full house of people who are into it.

quoted 2 lines My interest is Techno as

> > > My interest is Techno as > > > I said and I can listen to Techno in my nice quiet room

quoted 2 lines To not see techno, in the hands of a gifted DJ, with a crowd who is up for

> To not see techno, in the hands of a gifted DJ, with a crowd who is up for > it, is to entirely miss the point.

come on kent, you know this is ultra narrow-minded. i enjoy going out to music and staying in with music and there will always be a valid reason for both. and the music doesn't have to be different for either situation. let's face it, most club pa systems are shit, most djs are up their own arse, and most of the people around you are annoying. usually, when i'm at home, i'm itching to get out and go somewhere, and when i'm out, i can't wait to get back home to have a simple cup of tea and something i /really/ like playing.

quoted 3 lines Kraftwerk may be doing the same thing 20 years on, but their music is by

> Kraftwerk may be doing the same thing 20 years on, but their music is by > their own admission an industrial product, and they've gotten their > manufacturing process down to sub-micron tolerances.

and this is where their ideology clashes with (most of) the fans! who on this list is going to be brave enough to admit preferring the 'perfected' versions of their tracks to the original releases? when they eliminated every piece of grit, every millisecond-imperfect edit and every last trace of hiss, something was lost, it suddenly lost all its romance and inspirational quality. though this is mostly down to the choice of equipment they have these days. i mean, a raveolution? things are looking bad! get back to the tinfoil drum pads!

quoted 1 line That perhaps deserves a different sort of attention and appreciation than

> That perhaps deserves a different sort of attention and appreciation than

someone

quoted 1 line trying to push the state of the art, but it still deserves massive

> trying to push the state of the art, but it still deserves massive

respect. well, this is a difficult one. problem is, their industrial products are beginning to look a little dated. the things they say are becoming irrelevant.

quoted 4 lines (Though I must say that anyone who thinks Karl Bartos was "taking a crack

>(Though I must say that anyone who thinks Karl Bartos was "taking a crack >at something new" by releasing Electrik Music's "Kraftwerk Lite" album - >or that generic 4-on-the-floor track on T.E.Ex. 1 - has a mighty strange >definition of "new".)

well i just meant 'new material', not new ideas. though it's hardly fair to compare new live K material with elektric music's album, when/if the next K album is out, who's to say that it will be any better than bartos' effort? there's every reason to say it will be even worse!!! and just to add - kraftwerk have never been my idols.. Ken Downie, Andy Turner and Ed Handley are! <waves>

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, siliconvortex wrote:

quoted 7 lines My interest is Techno as

> > > > My interest is Techno as > > > > I said and I can listen to Techno in my nice quiet room > > > To not see techno, in the hands of a gifted DJ, with a crowd who is up for > > it, is to entirely miss the point. > > come on kent, you know this is ultra narrow-minded.

Moi? Narrow minded? Nah. Strong opinions? Sure!

quoted 2 lines let's face it, most club pa systems are shit, most djs are up their own

> let's face it, most club pa systems are shit, most djs are up their own > arse, and most of the people around you are annoying.

I guess I'm lucky enough to go to better clubs than you do. I thought Iowa City was a backwater, but apparently not. Or perhaps BECAUSE it's a backwater, the people DJ'ing and clubbing are up for it and appreciate it. It is different than Chicago -- not enough going on here to get jaded about it.

quoted 8 lines That perhaps deserves a different sort of attention and appreciation

> > That perhaps deserves a different sort of attention and appreciation > > than someone trying to push the state of the art, but it still deserves > > massive respect. > > well, this is a difficult one. problem is, their industrial products are > beginning to look a little dated. the things they say are becoming > irrelevant. >

Whatever. Is Bach irrelevant? He hasn't done anything new for over 200 years! I think he's lost his touch. Feel free to have your own opinions but don't get on my jock for disagreeing.

siliconvortex wrote:

quoted 3 lines come on kent, you know this is ultra narrow-minded. i enjoy going out to

> come on kent, you know this is ultra narrow-minded. i enjoy going out to > music and staying in with music and there will always be a valid reason for > both.

wait til you are in a gigging band. you will never want to go out again. going to a club now is like going to the office.

quoted 3 lines and this is where their ideology clashes with (most of) the fans! who on

> and this is where their ideology clashes with (most of) the fans! who on > this list is going to be brave enough to admit preferring the 'perfected' > versions of their tracks to the original releases?

me. i was just listening to The Mix in my car with my new subwoofer booming away and thinking, damn, this is just awesome. it sounds like machines dreaming.

quoted 3 lines well, this is a difficult one. problem is, their industrial products are

> well, this is a difficult one. problem is, their industrial products are > beginning to look a little dated. the things they say are becoming > irrelevant.

good god no. in fact they're more relevant now than ever. i mean, computer world at the time was prophetic - now it is fucking eerie.

quoted 2 lines and just to add - kraftwerk have never been my idols.. Ken Downie, Andy

> and just to add - kraftwerk have never been my idols.. Ken Downie, Andy > Turner and Ed Handley are!

bootlicker! :) -jsd, just a mite disgruntled as the person who was getting him kraftwerk tickets said, no, there aren't any, and then called to say that, yes, there were some... about 5 minutes before the show was due to go on.

In message <357EDE22.35A3F038@gamespot.com>, Jon Drukman <jsd@gamespot.com> writes

quoted 3 lines me. i was just listening to The Mix in my car with my new subwoofer

>me. i was just listening to The Mix in my car with my new subwoofer >booming away and thinking, damn, this is just awesome. it sounds like >machines dreaming.

Weird. I don't know how *anyone* can listen to that CHEESE when the originals sound so sci-fi, so pure, so nice, so excellent. Yeah, lets take the original tune, quantize it completely and stick a "dance beat" underneath.....what's the point in that? Isn't everyone doing it? -- Ben Coffer http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Ben Coffer wrote:

quoted 10 lines In message <357EDE22.35A3F038@gamespot.com>, Jon Drukman

> In message <357EDE22.35A3F038@gamespot.com>, Jon Drukman > <jsd@gamespot.com> writes > >me. i was just listening to The Mix in my car with my new subwoofer > >booming away and thinking, damn, this is just awesome. it sounds like > >machines dreaming. > > Weird. I don't know how *anyone* can listen to that CHEESE when the > originals sound so sci-fi, so pure, so nice, so excellent. Yeah, lets > take the original tune, quantize it completely and stick a "dance beat" > underneath.....what's the point in that? Isn't everyone doing it?

In my opinion, Kraftwerk already kind of "blew it" in terms of a comeback when they released these remixes, that is, in terms of following up their timeless earlier work with something new. These remixes are good and were very appropriate in the early 90's, but they are the most dated-sounding of all their recordings from my '98 perspective. Because they already broke their "silence" of not releasing anything and really should have put some new material together, even if, like Tour De France, they just expanded on the electro-pop formula. Isn't redigesting their own music something best left for those of us who've been so influenced by them? (Why should they stoop down to our level of creativity?) Repeating themselves through making even very-similar NEW songs seems like a better way to keep their name alive, etc, than to remix old tunes to sound like everything glamorous about '91. That is really pretty clumsy by their own standards, imho. Of course, I didn't feel this way in '92, but now time has passed... Solenoid solenoid@europa.com <------+

quoted 4 lines My interest is Techno as

>> > > My interest is Techno as >> > > I said and I can listen to Techno in my nice quiet room > >> To not see techno, in the hands of a gifted DJ, with a crowd who is up

for

quoted 1 line it, is to entirely miss the point.

>> it, is to entirely miss the point.

You entirely missed the point... you obviously didn't read much of my previous posts, so that may be the reason... I always said that music is fun to me, and to quote Mills here ---> Fuck Art, Let's Dance ! I go to raves every weekend, and dance my ass off... that sitting at home thing was huge sarcasm, and even bigger cliche....almost like that one on Erikki's web-site about trainspotters and DJs. Where is your sense of humor ? :-)))) For fucks sake, I like to jump jump'n groove, move to the beat even when I am sitting in my nice quiet room in my chair. I spin on it all the time... My brother recently played live in one club here, and some of my friends spinned some cheesy R'n'B and funkee and we all danced, and it was great night... And, btw I'm probably going to see Rolling Stones in Zagreb. Jagger has the move... Undercover undercover, UNDERCOVER are the names !!! Tr tt tr- t- t t t tr- t Tr tt tr- t- t t t tr- t Tr tt tr- t- t t t tr- t Tr tt tr- t- t t t tr- t Tr tt tr- t- t t t tr- t

quoted 2 lines and just to add - kraftwerk have never been my idols.. Ken Downie, Andy

>and just to add - kraftwerk have never been my idols.. Ken Downie, Andy >Turner and Ed Handley are!

I have a lot of idols, too. The biggest of them is Tim Roth, we have sort of the same moves with the face and those reflex reactions. Then I really like Paul Newman.... I always wanted to be like him, we even have the same haircut. Hmmm, one of my first idols was Lee Ranaldo, and I still, when I go with my mummy to buy some clothes for me, buy clothes to look a lot like him. Then my most recent idol is Matt Jones, I have mustaches even bigger then his, sort of in Saddam Hussein stylee. So I am sort of combination between those four. bye rob I don't like the red shirt / black tie combination... you look like a robot in it... np: Vulva : Pluto ''moving with shoulders and making my neck work'' A "Why am I Mr. Pink ?" B "Coz you're a fag, alright ?"

Ben Coffer wrote:

quoted 7 lines Jon Drukman <jsd@gamespot.com> wrote:

> Jon Drukman <jsd@gamespot.com> wrote: > >i was just listening to The Mix in my car with my new subwoofer > >booming away and thinking, damn, this is just awesome. it > >sounds like machines dreaming. > > Weird. I don't know how *anyone* can listen to that CHEESE > when the originals sound so sci-fi, so pure, so nice, so excellent.

I happen to think that _The_Mix_ is one of the only retrospective remix albums worth having. I think casting the originals in a new light was a brilliant stroke. The best thing about them is that they do not negate the power of the originals at all, but stand beside them as an example of just how timeless the material is, while sounding reasonably contemporary at the same time. Categorizing it as "cheese" is certainly way off, IMHO. If you never heard the originals, these tracks sound great by themselves. If you have, then they are newer takes on the same great themes. Either way, Kraftwerk updates itself for the 90s. Mission accomplished. -- Adam J Weitzman NewsEdge Corporation Welcome to my signature. http://www.newsedge.com Please wipe your feet. http://www.newspage.com

Ben Coffer wrote:

quoted 3 lines Yeah, lets

> Yeah, lets > take the original tune, quantize it completely and stick a "dance beat" > underneath.....what's the point in that? Isn't everyone doing it?

if everyone were doing it as well as kraftwerk did it with "the mix", i would probably be a pretty happy guy. as it is, how anyone can listen to the remodeled version of The Robots and not think it's a pretty bitchin' track is something i just will never understand. Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Plan: Eat right, exercise regularly, die anyway.