words from the irdial's leader akin
(btw i added the name tags before each quote)
chew on this
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begin forwarded message from <akin> irdial@irdialsys.win-uk.net
quoted 4 lines g@warp writes
> >g@warp writes
> > > alas what the irdial essay failed to point out is that virtually all
> > > electronic music (if not virtually all music) is mastered from DAT so
> > > at best on vinyl you get a slightly mushed up 44KHz sample rate...
That essay is misinterpreted 5 out of ten times, depending on the reader
(If he has even read it). It was written simply to warn people to
evaluate
the media that they use to master with. DAT is a non professional
mastering
medium, and this has been confirmed across the board by audio
professionals
after hundreds of hours of evaluation.
quoted 3 lines Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> > Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> > irdial can blow me. what they don't know about recording technology
> would fill a stadium.
very intelligent.
We, (unlike you?) have spent many hours in world class professional
mastering environments, mastering different types of recordings using
different media, SONY PCM501, DAT, SONY PCM1630, and Studer B67 @15ips
1/4". We, along with the professionals that master and work with
professional sound have come to the conclusion that the current crop
of digital equipment simply is not up to scratch when compared to
analogue equipment.
'Irdial hates digital' is just bullshit. This is not an emotional or
nostalgia issue. We have actually mastered many of our early
recordings onto **digital** formats: PCM501 (are you even old enough
to remember that?) and then DAT when it became available to hire. We
used SONY DTC1000ES machines ona regular basis. It was when we hired
two of them to digitally compile a double LP that we became aware of
the problems with DAT. When I complained to the mastering engineer
during the session that 'something is wrong with the sound' he asked
me how the production master was compiled.
I told him, 'DAT to DAT digital out to digital in'. We then went back
to the source DATs to find that they sounded COMPLETELY different to
the compiled production master DAT. After that, he explained that
mastering room engineers usually remain quiet about the problems with
DAT because they are in business and have to survive in a fiercely
competitive environment.
quoted 4 lines Black Dog Droid writes:
> Black Dog Droid writes:
> > yes, thats a good point. but akin *did* swing towards completely
> > analog recording in a later essay. He urges us to use tape wherever
> > possible, right up to the cutting of the disk. I feel that's
exactly. DAT is normally forbidden at Irdial-Discs not only because it
sounds bad, but because it is physically unreliable. We have had to
scrap several mastering sessions due to DATs that will not play on SONY
professional DAT players.
If the source is to be released on Vinyl, it is compiled on to Studer
B67 @15ips 1/4". If it is going to CD, its done all digital. That way,
we
will always have a 100% playable production master, and we take
advantage
of the best of both formats.
quoted 1 line impractical (and noisy), so i use a mix of analog and digital in my
> > impractical (and noisy), so i use a mix of analog and digital in my
what machines have you been using? have you heard Dolby SR? Its
important to talk explicitly about the equipment that you use,
otherwise,
we dont know what the problems are.
quoted 2 lines mixes, when possible. probably most artists concerned about
> > mixes, when possible. probably most artists concerned about
> > "warmth" in their finished recordings, do so too.
we have only ever been concerned with the sound of mastering, not of the
individual elements used to make a recording. People inevitably say that
because everybody uses digital reverbs ect that 'it won't make a
difference' how its mastered. These are usually people that have not
evaluated any media for a long period of time. This is also what we are
concerned about; that there is a whole generation of people that have
never had the chance to evaluate professional audio so that they can
make an informed judgement on what sounds good and what does not.
quoted 8 lines Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> crap. there's plenty of things you can do if you care about warmth.
> analog "warmth" (so called) is simply a matter of controlled
> distortion. there's $500 boxes that can create that distortion for
> you now, on command. hell, there's even computer software algorithms
> that can make it (see: Renaissance Compressor from Waves, for
> example.)
>
thats interesting. what are the names of these 'boxes', have you
personally evaluated them in a professional environment under peer
scrutiny? 'see: Renaissance Compressor from Waves' ummm dont you
mean 'HEAR'??
quoted 5 lines Black Dog Droid writes:
> Black Dog Droid writes:
> > In short, i don't believe the 96khz DVDs will be as good as yer all
> > singing, all dancing analog setup. that it will probably fit in a
> > suitcase, rather than a whole room, is about the only thing i can
> > see going for it. :)
well, if an analogue beating professional digital
mastering/dissemination system ever gets released to the public,
it will be a godsend; perfect pitch stability, longevity, and TRUE
1 to 1 master cloning will make analoge die a death, and not before
time. What we want is a switch over to the next generation of audio
equipment that is not driven by the '2 pounds of baloney in a one pound
bag' mentality (Mini Disc / DCC). The exponents of the current crop of
digital equipment can be loosely characterized as 'box junkies' without
any pro experience, deafly chasing after the specs instead of the sound.
Thats cool, but dont say that digital does what it cant do; and thats
what we have said all along.
quoted 5 lines Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> and eventually it will cost under $2000 and be entirely reliable.
> unlike your basic analog deck which requires herculean efforts to keep
> aligned, cleaned, and functioning.
>
you've obviously never used an 'analogue deck' (whatever that is) if you
can use a q-tip to clean out your ears (and i suggest you do, and then
go
do some critical evaluation) you can maintain a reel to reel tape
recorder.
this is also the mantra of the digital morons; 'its harder to use, so
its bad'. Thats bullshit. Maintaining a Studer A80 is simple, and if you
don't care enough about your music to maintain your studio equipment,
simply fuck off and die.
quoted 4 lines Black Dog Droid writes:
> Black Dog Droid writes:
> > will it make 44khz records sound old and jaded ??
> > grin, people might have to 'upgrade' their CD collections.
>
hmmm well, there has been a resurgance of vinal in Europe; reissues of
classic recordings on vinyl, simultaneous CD/vinyl releases where it
was CD only before. The word is out; CD is not as good as vinyl, and
even the lowest peasant can hear the difference.
quoted 7 lines Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> the whole idea of a 44khz RECORD (vinyl anyway) is to laugh... how
> many people's turntables even go close to 16khz? (that would be a 32k
> record, of course). how many "average human" ears are even good
> enough to hear above 16khz any more? if you go to loud clubs a lot,
> chances are your cutoff is even lower than that.
>
the number of people that can hear the difference between one source and
another is completely irrelevent. we are talikng about professioinal
standards, and the truth about current digital systems. this is exactly
the kind of bullshit argument that has been going on in the two pathetic
camps.this is not about stats its about =sound=.
quoted 5 lines Black Dog Droid writes:
> Black Dog Droid writes:
> > stuart is right though, it *is* an imperfect recording
> > medium. Listen to records made before the advent of DAT, and those
> > made (or mastered) afterwards. I don't have the "worlds best ears",
> > but I can spot the difference.quoted 5 lines Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> it's the fault of the engineers who made the recordings then, for not
> understanding digital. or the fault of the mastering engineers who
> created the stampers.
>
digital was sold as a transparent medium which allowed you to dump audio
back and forth between machines without any loss of qualtiy. of course,
this is a lie. three examples:
1/ using the sonic soultions system, different brands of hard drives
deliver a different sound (you read me right).
2/ DAT to DAT digital copies sound worse than DAT to DAT copies made
with the analogue ins/outs.
3/ PCM1630 masters copied onto exabyte render CDs that sound different
to CDs produced without the exabyte stage (pressing plants use exabyte
to cut the glass masters at double speed; a perfect example of careless
cost saving behavioiur)
digital was/is sold as something that eliminates the need to pay
attention to what you are doing, since its all supposed to be
transparent.
The badly mastered first generation ditial productions were bad because
the engineers had faith in the boxes; a fatal error. Now of couse,
everybody (almost) knows that you have to be very careful when you
master
with digital, as careful as you have to be with analogue tape. and of
course, the better professionals are dual mastering.
quoted 4 lines Black Dog Droid writes:
> Black Dog Droid writes:
> > why has the industry done this? is it a "cost thing"? you can get 4
> > CD's into the same box as 1 LP? making them cheaper to produce and
> > ship? or what?quoted 2 lines Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> maybe, for once, it was a case of superior technology winning out?
hardly. what *is* interesting is that CD is a rare case of a single
technology exploding to almost eliminate a previous technology, without
ANY alternative competing replacement. with home video it was a choice
between betamax and VHS...and so on. CD spread like wildfire because
there was no alternative replacement to vinyl, and for the consumer,
the promises were just too good (to be true).
quoted 8 lines Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> certainly when CDs came about they cost a fortune to manufacture. the
> prices reflected that. now the cost has just about equalized (and
> actually my recent research indicates that CDs are cheaper than vinyl
> if you do it properly!). no doubt the industry loves CDs because of
> the better profit margins. also quality control is much less of a
> hassle.
>
once again, 'we finally dont have to pay attention to the dirty
details'; its a very bad and slack attitude.
quoted 2 lines Black Dog Droid writes:
> Black Dog Droid writes:
> > soundwise, it sucks.quoted 3 lines Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> oh please. find a better mastering engineer or learn about digital
> yourself and premaster your own CDs.
'premaster your own CDs?' *very funny*. if you think that high quality
audio comes from the bedroom of a lamer with an awe32 and a CDR then
*you* really dont know what you are talking about.
quoted 5 lines Black Dog Droid writes:
> Black Dog Droid writes:
> > I feel (a bit) cheated when i buy a CD. LP's used to be chunky,
> > special, and full of bonus goodies. oh, *AND* you can roll a joint
> > on them. 12" vinyl is still my prefered medium.
>
'trust your feelings Luke'
quoted 4 lines Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> Written by Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
> it certainly looks good but it doesn't fit in your backpack and you
> can't play it in your car.
>
so, the convenience generation shows its repulsive and ignorant face
again. the sound of a car engine roaring with music; ~thats~ the sound
of 'high quality audio'! you lamer, go 'blow' sony/philips and leave
audio to the professionals.
to end...
We are currently experimenting with mpeg layer 3. Why? because the way
people consume music is changing. 'Desktop Audio' CDs with 11 hours
of sound on them could be an interesting product to market. Bringing
music to where it is heard is an interesting concept, and with layer
3, we can bring hours of Desktop quality sound to the irc addict /
mouse potato all on one disc.we have alway been interested in using
different tools and you can be sure,that as the new tools come out,
we will use them. what we WONT do is say that a cat is an orange.
later...
Akin
end forwarded message
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