IDM Mailing Archive

I will say two things and then change the subject: 1) Just because Mommy likes them doesn't make it a quality album [does this make Hootie and the Blowfish geniuses?]; nor the fact that it has a polished, well-produced sound make it a quality album [does this make Frank Sinatra a genius?]. I have listened to 'In Sides' quite a number of times, probably more than those who voted for it as best album of the year. My conclusion is still the same: it is brain candy, aimed at the 18-25 year-old market. Tasty brain candy, but empty-calorie/commercial material, and certainly not worthy of a 'best of' label for the year, much less the decade. I have the same respect for Orbital's music as I do for Grisham's novels: it's icing on top of an empty cake. Icing is nice, but it doth not a cake maketh. [And if you doubt its commercial aspects, please note the various radio, video, and live promotions Orbital used in the US (let alone in the UK) to move the product. I have never seen this level of advertisment for an electronic album before. <LOL> and <giggle> all you please; draw your own conclusions.] 2) An opinion is an opinion. Thought I made this quite clear, but it seems that folks sometimes need reminding. Facts are facts, however, and that 'In Sides' is different in its commercial aspects should be obvious to anyone paying attention. Again, draw your own conclusions. To start even more shit, and perhaps a more interesting thread: Notice that most of the IDM artists and their fans are white males with a tonne of disposable income? Is this merely coincidence? Should this be more than mere chance, why is this so? Why, in fact, did this list earn the name '*intelligent* dance music,' as opposed to any other name? Does this moniker have a racial basis? Love, Alex On Now: Miles Davis, "Kind of Blue." Alexander ("Alex" will do nicely) Peter Reynolds polygon@jhu.edu http://jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu/~polygon http://www.jhu.edu/~jhufilm - Senior User Consultant Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Homewood Campus Baltimore, MD USA

I think that what people are saying to you is that they *respect* your opinion, but they beleive it to be wrong. It has also been pointed out that Orbital *do* deserve the awards we bestowed upon them for *the only* reason that needs consideration. Which is that these awards were bestowed upon them by a vote by the list.

quoted 4 lines 2) An opinion is an opinion. Thought I made this quite clear, but it seems

> 2) An opinion is an opinion. Thought I made this quite clear, but it seems > that folks sometimes need reminding. Facts are facts, however, and that > 'In Sides' is different in its commercial aspects should be obvious to > anyone paying attention. Again, draw your own conclusions.

Surely music ( as with all art ) should stand on it's own merits. Why do you need to consider a piece of arts 'commercial aspects' at all? Are you afraid to feel to ordinary by admiring something that is popular? The general public is capable of getting things right from time to time. Take 'Pulp Fiction' as a case in point. I think this is an amazing movie. Far from the best I have seen, and far from the most expressive and philosophically explorive I have seen. I'm sure someone on the 'Intelligent Movie' List has been complaining about how pulp fiction is total drivel. Using arguments like 'look how popular it is, how can it have artistic credibility'. Fuck that shit. I enjoyed the film. And I love 'In Sides'. I would rate Sniv and the Brown album above it, but I still think it is an excellent album, and altough I personally didn't get to vote on the final phase ( being on holidays n stuff ) I probably would have voted for Dead Cities....

quoted 8 lines To start even more shit, and perhaps a more interesting thread:

> > To start even more shit, and perhaps a more interesting thread: > > Notice that most of the IDM artists and their fans are white males with a > tonne of disposable income? Is this merely coincidence? Should this be > more than mere chance, why is this so? Why, in fact, did this list earn > the name '*intelligent* dance music,' as opposed to any other name? Does > this moniker have a racial basis?

I rarely find myself considering such matters. IDM fans like IDM. This already is too much over classification for my liking. I've always hated the label IDM. If you read the faq you'll see why it was chosen, but I am personally for changing the list name to 'Experimental Electronic Music' or 'Autechre are God'.... - Hary J Walsh It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because we do not dare that they are difficult. -Seneca

quoted 2 lines polished, well-produced sound make it a quality album [does this make

> polished, well-produced sound make it a quality album [does this make > Frank Sinatra a genius?].

Pardon me, but Frank Sinatra -is- a genius. Whether you like what he does or not. At the risk of repeating points which others have already made... P & P Hartnoll have quite a good handle on rhythm and counterpoint. Their sound design isn't particularly distinctive most of the time. I like the 2nd (Brown) album best in this respect, though _Snivilisation_ also offers a more-than-respectable amount of sonic invention. _In Sides_, like their other records, is a work of admirable craft and attention to detail, is warm and engaging (far short of pablum) -- and sounds best if you don't listen too closely. Orbital could find mass success in much the same way (if not to the same level) as U2 or Nine Inch Nails. That is, U2 and NIN pushed at the envelope of pop culture, but not very hard. Nirvana and REM, too. Pop culture moved toward all of them, not the other way around. Speaking of which, I heard the track "Firestarter" by Prodigy on the "Top 5 at 5" on Chicago's Q101 (alternative-rock station). Reminded me of NIN trying to do early Aphex or something. Is this indicative of Prodigy's other material? --Mark

At 06:19 PM 1/8/97 -0500, Alex Reynolds wrote:

quoted 3 lines 2) An opinion is an opinion. Thought I made this quite clear, but it seems

> >2) An opinion is an opinion. Thought I made this quite clear, but it seems >that folks sometimes need reminding.

Exactly and yours isn't any better than anyone else's.

quoted 7 lines To start even more shit, and perhaps a more interesting thread:

>To start even more shit, and perhaps a more interesting thread: > >Notice that most of the IDM artists and their fans are white males with a >tonne of disposable income? Is this merely coincidence? Should this be >more than mere chance, why is this so? Why, in fact, did this list earn >the name '*intelligent* dance music,' as opposed to any other name? Does >this moniker have a racial basis?

I don't know anyone else with the same tastes in music as me that I know personally so I can't comment on a racial thing. Yeah I'm sure you're right, the "intelligent" part of the name refers to most of the fans being white, yeah right. Stop trolling for flames and start talking about music.

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, SS wrote:

quoted 1 line Exactly and yours isn't any better than anyone else's.

> Exactly and yours isn't any better than anyone else's.

And when did I say my opinion was better than anyone's? Feel free to quote what I've written, and try to avoid the usual "your tone says . . ." nonsense. I was voicing my opinion, just as you were. I even said to take what I wrote 'with a grain of salt.' Sheesh. You're no fun at all.

quoted 4 lines I don't know anyone else with the same tastes in music as me that I

> I don't know anyone else with the same tastes in music as me that I > know personally so I can't comment on a racial thing. Yeah I'm sure you're > right, the "intelligent" part of the name refers to most of the fans being > white, yeah right. Stop trolling for flames and start talking about music.

I am talking about music; in particular, social aspects of this type of music and its fan base. I think it merits discussion; I would like to know other's viewpoints as well. It is very interesting to me that an artform by mostly white artists that borrows heavily from mostly black artists has a description that effectively states: "All other forms of (dance) music are unintelligent." Moreover, I've heard few acknowledgments of those artists who created the samples used by, and which have inspired IDM artists. I've been on this list for over a year and I have read no other thread in the archive that deals with this observation. Let us discuss or put our heads in the sand and talk about the next neat-o AFX or FSOL publicity stunt. As it stands, flames have no effect on me. If they had, I'd have responded to mail re: orbital much earlier. So -- take care. Yours, Alex Alexander ("Alex" will do nicely) Peter Reynolds polygon@jhu.edu http://jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu/~polygon http://www.jhu.edu/~jhufilm - Senior User Consultant Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Homewood Campus Baltimore, MD USA

Alex Reynolds wrote:

quoted 3 lines And when did I say my opinion was better than anyone's? Feel free to

> And when did I say my opinion was better than anyone's? Feel free to > quote what I've written, and try to avoid the usual "your tone > says . . ." nonsense.

I wouldn't say that you said that your opinion was better than anyone else's. What you did say was that the people who voted for Orbital were influenced by MTV, did not exert any free will, and did not make any effort to seek out other, perhaps more suitable to your taste, music. Direct quotes:

quoted 3 lines Yet another example of the undue and undeserved influence we're

>>> Yet another example of the undue and undeserved influence we're >>> letting MTV have on musical tastes. Show some free will, people, for >>> God's sakes.

and

quoted 3 lines there were so many alternatives to this of infinitely better quality

>>> there were so many alternatives to this of infinitely better quality >>> that are *readily* available, if you made the slightest effort, that >>> noone who voted for these sorry bastards has the least excuse.

I responded because I was insulted by these remarks. You are suggesting that I don't know how to make up my own mind and that I have no "excuse" for voting the way I did. I think that's a pretty nasty thing to say. My response was an attempt to flesh out the thought process I went through to come to my conclusion, to prove to you that I can, in fact, decide which things I like better than which other things. By extension, you might realize that the other people who voted for Orbital probably went through similar processes to come to their conclusions and that your assertion that we are lemmings following advertising executives and MTV programmers has little basis in fact. Now if I were trying to analyze the two statements of yours that I quoted, I might say that since you think that my opinion is uninformed and under-researched, one could reach that conclusion that you think your opinion is qualitatively better than mine. But I won't say that you said it explicitly, because you didn't. ObMusic: _RDJ_ US release: Jan 28. Yay! np: S.E.T.I. - _The_Geometry_Of_Night_ (incoming!) -- Adam J Weitzman "Getting [your computer] to work is no more Individual, Inc. difficult than building a nuclear reactor weitzman@individual.com from wristwatch parts using only your teeth." http://www.individual.com - Dave Barry

On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 18:19:05 -0500, Alex Reynolds <polygon@jhu.edu> wrote:

quoted 5 lines [And if you doubt its commercial aspects, please note the various radio,

>[And if you doubt its commercial aspects, please note the various radio, >video, and live promotions Orbital used in the US (let alone in the UK) to >move the product. I have never seen this level of advertisment for an >electronic album before. <LOL> and <giggle> all you please; draw your own >conclusions.]

I think you're confusing two forms of commercialism here, or actually you're confusing promotion with commercialism. Commercialism= making a record with the goal of selling lots of copies (BAD) Promotion= trying to sell lots of copies by advertising etc. *after* you've made the record (NOT BAD) See the distinction?

quoted 2 lines Why, in fact, did this list earn

>Why, in fact, did this list earn >the name '*intelligent* dance music,' as opposed to any other name?

When the list was created, it took its name from Warp's Artificial Intelligence Series (see the IDM intro message for the full story). However, as someone (I forgot who) said a few months ago : 'IDM' as a characterization should be used as IDM, not I.D.M. and I agree wholeheartedly.

quoted 1 line Does this moniker have a racial basis?

>Does this moniker have a racial basis?

Absolutely none whatsoever. Otto OnNow: new Acid Junkies doublepack (the 303 is dead, long live the 303!)

In a message dated 09/01/97 03:20:17, you write:

quoted 4 lines It is very interesting to me that an

> It is very interesting to me that an > artform by mostly white artists that borrows heavily from mostly black > artists has a description that effectively states: "All other forms of > (dance) music are unintelligent."

No, you're striking the wrong chord here. idm is not a categorisation exclusively for Aphex and Autechre, on this list I want to talk about techno music, house music, breakbeat music, dub, ambient, I want to talk about Miles Davis, Weather Report, Durutti, Cabaret Voltaire, Stockhausen, anything as long as it's good music, because you can't put the barriers in place and exclude anything - too many links. We should distinguish ourselves from unintelligent music and not unintelligent styles. On Now? Diagram XI - D'Arcangelo

On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Aran M. Parillo wrote:

quoted 3 lines Diagram XI - D'Arcangelo

> > Diagram XI - D'Arcangelo > > 80's mix please!!!

of course I meant Diagram VII - 80's mix! phew, all better... Teep <wooosh> np: 2350 b-way baybee </wooosh>

In a message dated 97-01-09 06:48:13 EST, you write:

quoted 1 line Does this moniker have a racial basis?

> >Does this moniker have a racial basis?

Hhmmmmmmmmm.. Lets see.... Intelligent? - no that's not it.... Dance?...nope not it either... Music? No that has no racial connotation either. Funny I never seem to understand where people get ideas from when it comes to race. This is as strange as the post where someone (on this or one of my other lists) stated that he had a freind who thought that the use of the term "Jungle" was racially demeaning. Peace Eric