IDM Mailing Archive

I know this may sound like a stupid question but what, if any, is the difference between Jungle and Drum n Bass? Tim

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Tim Fothegill F. Ciencias Dpto. Biologia wrote:

quoted 3 lines I know this may sound like a stupid question but what, if any, is the

> I know this may sound like a stupid question but what, if any, is the > difference between Jungle and Drum n Bass? >

We called it Jungle before 96, and in 96 we call it drum & bass. Initially 'Drum & Bass' and 'Jungle' were distinct sub-genres, but keeping Jungle sub-genre's straight is a full time job. To catalog the sub-genres I've heard or heard about, you've got Ragga, Drum&Bass, Hardstep, Techstep, Darkside, 'Intelligent' D&B (which as near as I can tell is D&B any time white people are involved, which smacks of racism to me). Then there's Jungle D&B predecessors like hardcore, breakbeat. The mind boggles. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Stop thinking, and end your problems" -- Tao Te Ching Home Page, featuring Reagan on Black Velvet, the EMP Compilation CD, samples of my music, etc http://soli.inav.net/~kent/ Kent Williams kent@inav.net CADSI 2651 Crosspark Road Coralville IA 52241 (319) 338 6053 (home) (319) 626 6700 x 219 (work) (319) 626 3489 (fax)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kent Williams wrote:

quoted 4 lines To catalog the sub-genres I've heard or heard about, you've got

> To catalog the sub-genres I've heard or heard about, you've got > Ragga, Drum&Bass, Hardstep, Techstep, Darkside, 'Intelligent' D&B > (which as near as I can tell is D&B any time white people are involved, > which smacks of racism to me).

this last comment has been made before and it makes me wonder - how the hell am i supposed to know (or care) if they're black or white or chinese or whatever? out of the past 20 12"s i've bought, not _one_ has a picture of the artist on it... i think it's a weird thing to bring up, i guess. i have no idea what race witchman, t.power, squarepusher, etc are, and i could care less. unrelated: anyone have a witchman discography? 8) hummus! [grievous] [sloth code: S++] [http://onramp.uscom.com/~grievous] ["my revelation causes revolution... ] [ ...while my sound system brings noise pollution"]

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, grievous iv - gymkata! wrote:

quoted 13 lines On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kent Williams wrote:

> > On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kent Williams wrote: > > 'Intelligent' D&B > > (which as near as I can tell is D&B any time white people are involved, > > which smacks of racism to me). > > this last comment has been made before and it makes me wonder - how the > hell am i supposed to know (or care) if they're black or white or chinese > or whatever? out of the past 20 12"s i've bought, not _one_ has a > picture of the artist on it... > > i think it's a weird thing to bring up, i guess. i have no idea what > race witchman, t.power, squarepusher, etc are, and i could care less.

Let me clarify, since it seems to have raised an issue that can flare into a pointless thread: I like the stuff that's called "Intelligent" but the tag bugs me. What makes it more intelligent than the music to which it is theoretically being contrasted? It seems to me that a lot of the intelligent D&B really is a step removed from the originators, and the fact that it's coming from people like Aphex Twin, Orbital, Squarepusher, yadda yadda makes it more accessible to people who are not into the original jungle scene. And more of those guys are white than the originators. It feels to me that it recapitulates the scene in the 50's where black artists were recording rock and roll records, which were covered by white artists who made it safe for radio. Is there a real racial bias going on here? I don't know. As near as I can tell, techno, jungle, IDM, etc parties are a lot more easy going racially than other scenes, at least in the US -- perhaps even more so in the UK. I'm not accusing anyone on IDM in the least. When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the PC police, but think about language and words when you use them. And the idea of 'Intelligent' jungle just bugs me. Jungle didn't start out stupid, and then get colonized by a bunch of smarter techno-boffins, and to use the term is a big diss to the originators. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Stop thinking, and end your problems" -- Tao Te Ching Home Page, featuring Reagan on Black Velvet, the EMP Compilation CD, samples of my music, etc http://soli.inav.net/~kent/ Kent Williams kent@inav.net CADSI 2651 Crosspark Road Coralville IA 52241 (319) 338 6053 (home) (319) 626 6700 x 219 (work) (319) 626 3489 (fax)

quoted 5 lines When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the

> When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the > PC police, but think about language and words when you use them. And > the idea of 'Intelligent' jungle just bugs me. Jungle didn't start > out stupid, and then get colonized by a bunch of smarter techno-boffins, > and to use the term is a big diss to the originators.

Jungle as far as I am concerned has gotten better. I am not labelling it intelligent or anything else. I am finally glad to not be hearing sped up Chipmunk vocals, in tracks. I think Drum N bass and techno had a period that wasn't very good. I hated to go to rave around 1992 because everything was sped up to +8 or played at the wrong speed and ton of chipmunk vocals (Altern 8, Prodigy, etc.) I like a lot the more recent Drum N bass like Photek, LTJ Bukem, Squarepusher, etc. I think the genre has just progressed.

At 10:51 PM -0500 10/7/96, Kent Williams wrote:

quoted 5 lines When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the

>When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the >PC police, but think about language and words when you use them. And >the idea of 'Intelligent' jungle just bugs me. Jungle didn't start >out stupid, and then get colonized by a bunch of smarter techno-boffins, >and to use the term is a big diss to the originators.

well, it's an interesting question and one that has been much on my mind lately since i've been trying to work with these other guys on some jungle tracks. basically there appear to be two major camps in the jungle movement - stuff aimed squarely at the dancefloor and stuff that ain't. in our little neck of the woods we'd probably divide that up as "techno" and "idm". i really hate the term "idm" and have since day one, but the list name wasn't up to me, so we're stuck with it. anyway, i find most of the "pure dancefloor" jungle stuff to be totally unlistenable. most of what i've heard is incredibly cheesy and predictable. on the other hand, my jungle friends tell me that that stuff just WORKS like a mutha and the stuff i like is effete snobby crap that is only good when you're very stoned. (not that i see a particular problem with that, but that's their viewpoint). it is unfortunate that the word "intelligent" ever got involved but terminology is always problematic. i propose dancefloor jungle and non-dancefloor jungle. that's the best i can come up with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Drukman jsd@cyborganic.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Jon Drukman wrote: [snipznap]

quoted 8 lines anyway, i find most of the "pure dancefloor" jungle stuff to be totally

> > anyway, i find most of the "pure dancefloor" jungle stuff to be totally > unlistenable. most of what i've heard is incredibly cheesy and predictable. > > on the other hand, my jungle friends tell me that that stuff just WORKS > like a mutha and the stuff i like is effete snobby crap that is only good > when you're very stoned. (not that i see a particular problem with that, > but that's their viewpoint).

Huh. I've always found it to be the other way around... the craftier stuff tends to engage me enough to keep me moving, whereas the straight-up-formulaic-bassline-dropping tracks tend to get old pretty fast without, er, "outside assistance." .--------------------------------------------------------------------. | Eric Moon eamoon@smmedia.com Phone: (206) 523-7065 | | Lead Programmer Pager: 1-800-617-8414 | | Schmidt Mead Media Inc. (or) pageeamoon@smmedia.com | `--------------------------------------------------------------------'

quoted 3 lines it is unfortunate that the word "intelligent" ever got involved but

> it is unfortunate that the word "intelligent" ever got involved but > terminology is always problematic. i propose dancefloor jungle and > non-dancefloor jungle. that's the best i can come up with.

this is exactly the terminology i use. when people ask me what i spin, i tell them 'drum'n'bass, the non-dancefloor stuff'. 'cos that's exactly what it is. :) who are you working with jon? (unless i'm being too nosey :) mikebee