IDM Mailing Archive

On Sat, 19 Mar 1994, Alan Michael Parry wrote:

quoted 2 lines Can some people in the know give us any information or advice on this?

> Can some people in the know give us any information or advice on this? > Im just curious to hear what all your thoughts are...thanks.

I have never been to the WWW site you mention (really, I've been meaning to), but I can't see how a label can copyright its own discography. Now, if you have sound bites and pictures there (and I assume you do), that's another story entirely. While the label probably can't sue for the pictures unless they own them, they can definitely sue over the music, because labels generally have the exclusive right to distribution of the music released on it, and you are violating that. IMHO, what you ought to do is call up Rephlex and tell them that you've set up this site and that they should check it out. Tell them that you thought it was a good idea because it gives them free PR (and naturally, you would like to see them get rich, so giving out sound bites and discographies will entice people to buy, buy, buy!). Or something like that. If they have any objections, you'll remove it. Or, you could wait until someone from Rephlex finds out accidentally and gets pissed off and threatens you with a lawsuit. Persoanlly, I think you'd be better off asking for permission. I think the person from that label in New York is stupid to turn down free worldwide PR, but I can see where they might get upset that something like this was done behind their backs. - Adam J Weitzman INDIVIDUAL, Inc. weitzman@individual.com

From the cyberdesk of: Alan Michael Parry

quoted 4 lines From: Andrew Bennett <abennett@phoenix.aps.muohio.edu>

> From: Andrew Bennett <abennett@phoenix.aps.muohio.edu> > He said that he mentioned it to his boss earlier (the label owner), who > concured. The label owner indicated that if this was done to his label, > that he might sue due to the copyright violations.

I thought the US Supreme court determined that lists of factual information were specfically not copyrightable. This was regarding people who sold phone books, and the result is the phone books on CD, etc. Ma Bell couldn't sue on the grounds of copyright violation as the information was of a factual nature, and as such, contained no "creative effort". If this guy is "protecting" his label by wanting to keep the artists and products he *produces and sells* a "secret", then I for one would be extremely pissed if I was signed to the label and one of the artists being "represented" by this asshole. I can't see how this guy justifies this form of "stealth marketing" to his clients (the artists he's signed to his label). He looks more like a sue-happy profiteer than a promoter of his artists' work. Please name the label so I can avoid their products in the future.... Now if the WWW thingy contains actual "samples" of Rephlex products, then if there were some way to enforce a "play only" mode and disallow downloads, then you might just need permission from the label to make a "custom format demo version" similar to the CD-machines you can pop headphones on in Tower and listen to various CDs before you buy. Does Tower purchase these CDs? Does that constitute "public performance" and violate the license agreement printed on the CD? Did Tower obtain a special license for these CD players accessible to the public? It obviously is "promotional" in nature, but for example, could I set up a "CD Listening Room" and sell beverages with no cover or would that be called operating a "bar" and I'd have to pay ASCAP fees or something? Does Tower have an ASCAP license for the machines? How does an arrangement like that (i.e. the WWW site holds an ASCAP license) fit onto the WWW site? Do y'all need an ASCAP license, or does the site, or does the receiver's site? If you have an ASCAP license, does it matter? Is there a difference between a DJ and a WWW-cyber-DJ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael King mike%delta1@rex.cs.tulane.edu Delta Systems New Orleans, LA 70002 Voice: 504.837.9835 Fax: 504.837.9838 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never under estimate the bandwidth of a station wagon loaded with mag tapes. -Karl Kleinpaste, postmaster Ohio State University ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- rom idm-owner Tue Mar 22 09:38:29 1994 Received: by techno.Stanford.EDU (4.1/1.34) id AA21619; Tue, 22 Mar 94 09:38:29 PST Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu by techno.Stanford.EDU (4.1/1.34) id AA21605; Tue, 22 Mar 94 09:38:20 PST Received: from delta1.UUCP by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Tue, 22 Mar 94 11:38:15 CST Subject: Strange Cargo To: IDM List <idm@techno.Stanford.EDU> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 16:09:51 -0600 (CST) From: Michael King <mike%delta1@cs.tulane.edu> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1837 Message-Id: <9403211609.aa25436@delta1.UUCP> Sender: idm-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU I know there's been some mention of William Orbit's Strange Cargo 3 with some hearty recommendations. I'm still waiting for the f*ckers who keep buying the stock before I get to it at Tower to back off so I can get one. Oh, the problems of not being able to shop on Tuesday mornings when they get their shipments in. Anyways, I have Strange Cargo 1, released in 1988 on IRS as part of their "No Speak" series. It is No Speak #4. Catalog # IRS 42098 All the tracks were pleasant, but none real standouts. I liked "Fire & Mercy", "Out of the Ice" sounded like a bored rework of Blondie's "Rapture", and my favorite was "Jimmy's Jag". I really wish that track had been reworked into a longer one. Tremendous energy building in it, but the loops are too short and the guitar riff is just painful, but I think that it really is an important part of the song. It just seems to "belong" there. Just wish they would have toned it down a notch and not put the Marshall on 11. Track Listing: A1: Via Caliente B1: Out of the Ice A2: Fire and Mercy B2: Scorpion A3: Jump Jet B3: Riding to Rio A4: Silent Signals B4: Jimmy's Jag A5: The Secret Garden B5: The Mightt Limpopo B6: Theme Dream Later Days & Brighter Rays ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael King mike%delta1@rex.cs.tulane.edu Delta Systems New Orleans, LA 70002 Voice: 504.837.9835 Fax: 504.837.9838 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never under estimate the bandwidth of a station wagon loaded with mag tapes. -Karl Kleinpaste, postmaster Ohio State University ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 21 Mar 1994, Michael King wrote:

quoted 5 lines I thought the US Supreme court determined that lists of factual information

> I thought the US Supreme court determined that lists of factual information > were specfically not copyrightable. This was regarding people who sold > phone books, and the result is the phone books on CD, etc. Ma Bell couldn't > sue on the grounds of copyright violation as the information was of a > factual nature, and as such, contained no "creative effort". If this guy is

This is very true, and one of the reasons this thread has perplexed me so damn much! There is nothing at all illegal about compiling discographies, and there should be even less controversy as we don't charge or profit from discographies we keep on the net. I missed the first part of this thread, but lately I've been boggled. Who was this that felt so threatened? Sounds like they misunderstood somthing, if you ask me.

quoted 11 lines and listen to various CDs before you buy. Does Tower purchase these CDs?

> and listen to various CDs before you buy. Does Tower purchase these CDs? > Does that constitute "public performance" and violate the license agreement > printed on the CD? Did Tower obtain a special license for these CD players > accessible to the public? It obviously is "promotional" in nature, but for > example, could I set up a "CD Listening Room" and sell beverages with no > cover or would that be called operating a "bar" and I'd have to pay > ASCAP fees or something? Does Tower have an ASCAP license for the machines? > How does an arrangement like that (i.e. the WWW site holds an ASCAP license) > fit onto the WWW site? Do y'all need an ASCAP license, or does the site, or > does the receiver's site? If you have an ASCAP license, does it matter? Is > there a difference between a DJ and a WWW-cyber-DJ?

Now THIS is the potentially dangerous part, and I could understand if this bothered some label-exec-types. The sound archives at the techno/SFRaves site are technically illegal, specifically the samples of entire songs. I have to say that it's a good thing that there's not a "Entire Sampled Albums" directory . . . . Anyway, in regards to the "public performance" question, that clause is used in cases of record stores playing music for PROMOTIONAL reasons, i.e. in order to sell said records (which, unless memory fails me, copyright laws assume that any music being played in a record store is being used to drum up sales - hence music being played for profit). On the other hand, the archives DO NOT store these samples for reasons of gaining profit . . . The laws being broken are those that prohibit unauthorised duplication. In this case, it IS illegal, however . . . I think that there are definately ways to get around this, such as obtaining permission. As most (if not all) of the artists sampled on the archive are relatively obscure (same for the labels), I would say that it shouldn't be too hard to obtain permission from most of the labels to store excerpts from these songs on the archive site to make them freely available. I don't think that any (non-major) label in their right mind would sue because there were EXCERPTS from their products being made freely available. In fact, I would say that many labels would officially sanction the archive if they knew about it. Anyway, sorry for droning on for so long, but my flirtations with the "industry" over the past 5 or so years have (at least) taught me just enough to make me dangerous to myself and others. :) If Brian (et al) could get in touch with me with the story so far, I would really appreciate it, as I'm feeling a bit under-informed at the moment. o23 orpheus@knuth.mtsu.edu

Having been on just about all sides of this copyright issue, I think I can understand the label owner's initial trepidation at allowing multimedia discog's. And I do realize that yes, technically and legally, we are infringing upon their copyright, and copyright law, despite the wishes of software bootleggers around the world, does apply world-wide according to international convention. So, the right thing to do, as Fluid has done, is to email Ben at Rephlex and ask for some sort of official acknowlegement or permission for this. The law would view this, according to some friends in copyright law at the law school here at Berkeley, as a similar case to cassette duplication, or possibly even comparable to quoting a piece of literature in another piece of literature. However, I'm certainly not interested in setting any legal precedents, thanks :) I think any label owner would be crazy to NOT endorse something like this, in fact I think 10 years from now something like this will be very commonplace and funded by record labels themselves. (http://columbia.com/micheael.jackson.html for example :) And we'll all have fast computers and fat pipes to the net which'll make this very popular thing. Brian