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i don't have any mixes out there but i do know that most promo mixes and live sets you find on tapes or cds in record shops are bootlegs. in most cases they are recorded and sold without the artists knowledge. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

exception being DJ Aura's mixes. Peace, A On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 04:18 AM, marick stawis wrote:

quoted 14 lines i don't have any mixes out there but i do know that most promo mixes

> i don't have any mixes out there but i do know that most promo mixes > and live sets you find on tapes or cds in record shops are bootlegs. > in most cases they are recorded and sold without the artists > knowledge. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

Andrew Jones 514 Wavecrest Dr. Orlando, FL, 32807 407-927-7607 aim: liminal18

selling other people's music without licensing or permission is really weak. give your mixes away, don't sell them. it doesn't matter how artistic you may think your djing talents may be - it's not your music. you're merely compiling it, and you don't have any moral [or legal] right to sell it. From: Melangenoir@aol.com Subject: IDM MIX CD'S. hello friends- i've got a question for you all. i've got TONS of idm mixes on tape that i'm going to transfer on to cd [finally-it's been years] and i'm thinking about using them as promotional mix cd's, or possibly consign them to indie record stores and sell 'em. for those of you that have idm mixes out there, did you guys ask for permission to use the certain tracks that were on your mix cd's, or did you just go on ahead and make the mixes without permission? _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

This thread has come up before, but would selling mix cds be worse than: - selling music that has samples that aren't paying royalties - selling music that recreates the melody of an existing tune - selling music composed on pirated software or what about djs who really do just use turntables like a sampler? then again - where is the line that says its ok to give away mix cds anyway? sure, it may be promotional, but isn't that violating the artists copywrite anyway? I don't have strict answers to these questions, but they definitely come up. I make mixes and give them away, and sell a few, basically at cost to pay for cdrs/stickers. I think its fair, but if an artists actually cares enough, they can get in touch with me. - geoff/cutups ----- Original Message ----- From: "dub beautiful collective ." <dbcambient@hotmail.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Cc: <Melangenoir@aol.com> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: [idm] re: IDM MIX CDs

quoted 1 line selling other people's music without licensing or permission is really

> selling other people's music without licensing or permission is really

weak.

quoted 1 line give your mixes away, don't sell them. it doesn't matter how artistic

> give your mixes away, don't sell them. it doesn't matter how artistic

you

quoted 8 lines may think your djing talents may be - it's not your music. you're merely

> may think your djing talents may be - it's not your music. you're merely > compiling it, and you don't have any moral [or legal] right to sell it. > > > From: Melangenoir@aol.com > Subject: IDM MIX CD'S. > > hello friends- i've got a question for you all. i've got TONS of idm

mixes

quoted 3 lines on tape that i'm going to transfer on to cd [finally-it's been years] and

> on tape that i'm going to transfer on to cd [finally-it's been years] and > i'm > thinking about using them as promotional mix cd's, or possibly consign

them

quoted 2 lines to

> to > indie record stores and sell 'em. for those of you that have idm mixes

out

quoted 16 lines there, did you guys ask for permission to use the certain tracks that were

> there, did you guys ask for permission to use the certain tracks that were > on > your mix cd's, or did you just go on ahead and make the mixes without > permission? > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > >

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quoted 1 line This thread has come up before, but would selling mix cds be worse

>>This thread has come up before, but would selling mix cds be worse

than:

quoted 1 line - selling music that has samples that aren't paying royalties

>>- selling music that has samples that aren't paying royalties

Always a tricky one, I must confess I'm guilty of such a sin, though usually the samples are unrecognizable :)

quoted 1 line - selling music that recreates the melody of an existing tune

>>- selling music that recreates the melody of an existing tune

Blatant Plagiarism can not be forgiven, I get that quite often and I hate it with a PASSION...

quoted 1 line - selling music composed on pirated software

>>- selling music composed on pirated software

Again, that's a no no too, I paid for the software, so should anyone else that uses it commercially. Is it right for a plumber to steal his toolkit (not the best analogy but it will do)? ----- Original Message ----- From: "dub beautiful collective ." <dbcambient@hotmail.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Cc: <Melangenoir@aol.com> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: [idm] re: IDM MIX CDs

quoted 1 line selling other people's music without licensing or permission is really

> selling other people's music without licensing or permission is really

weak.

quoted 1 line give your mixes away, don't sell them. it doesn't matter how

> give your mixes away, don't sell them. it doesn't matter how

artistic you

quoted 1 line may think your djing talents may be - it's not your music. you're

> may think your djing talents may be - it's not your music. you're

merely

quoted 1 line compiling it, and you don't have any moral [or legal] right to sell

> compiling it, and you don't have any moral [or legal] right to sell

it.

quoted 6 lines From: Melangenoir@aol.com

> > > From: Melangenoir@aol.com > Subject: IDM MIX CD'S. > > hello friends- i've got a question for you all. i've got TONS of idm

mixes

quoted 1 line on tape that i'm going to transfer on to cd [finally-it's been years]

> on tape that i'm going to transfer on to cd [finally-it's been years]

and

quoted 2 lines i'm

> i'm > thinking about using them as promotional mix cd's, or possibly consign

them

quoted 2 lines to

> to > indie record stores and sell 'em. for those of you that have idm

mixes out

quoted 1 line there, did you guys ask for permission to use the certain tracks that

> there, did you guys ask for permission to use the certain tracks that

were

quoted 15 lines on

> on > your mix cd's, or did you just go on ahead and make the mixes without > permission? > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > >

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Didn't Kid 606 famously not clear the samples on the Mentalist blah blah fucking Jams CD and it had to be released on the New Zealand-based Violent Turd label to avoid copyright troubles? So there you have a well known IDM name ignoring song ownership on a mix CD. And I can't walk into any of the record stores here in NYC without seeing that CD... its everywhere. Of course, there IS also a difference between (ab)using Eminem and Missy tracks versus tracks by IDM artists that are unlikely to be making any big time profits on their music. Like most matters with copyrights, its a complicated issue without any solid answer. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lee Stacey <lee@codeaudio.com> Date: Monday, July 21, 2003 10:07 pm Subject: RE: [idm] re: IDM MIX CDs

quoted 101 lines This thread has come up before, but would selling mix cds be worse

> > >>This thread has come up before, but would selling mix cds be worse > than: > >>- selling music that has samples that aren't paying royalties > > > Always a tricky one, I must confess I'm guilty of such a sin, though > usually the samples are unrecognizable :) > > >>- selling music that recreates the melody of an existing tune > > Blatant Plagiarism can not be forgiven, I get that quite often and I > hate it with a PASSION... > > >>- selling music composed on pirated software > > Again, that's a no no too, I paid for the software, so should anyone > else that uses it commercially. Is it right for a plumber to steal his > toolkit (not the best analogy but it will do)? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dub beautiful collective ." <dbcambient@hotmail.com> > To: <idm@hyperreal.org> > Cc: <Melangenoir@aol.com> > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 6:55 PM > Subject: [idm] re: IDM MIX CDs > > > > selling other people's music without licensing or permission is > reallyweak. > > give your mixes away, don't sell them. it doesn't matter how > artistic > you > > may think your djing talents may be - it's not your music. you're > merely > > compiling it, and you don't have any moral [or legal] right to sell > it. > > > > > > From: Melangenoir@aol.com > > Subject: IDM MIX CD'S. > > > > hello friends- i've got a question for you all. i've got TONS > of idm > mixes > > on tape that i'm going to transfer on to cd [finally-it's been > years]and > > i'm > > thinking about using them as promotional mix cd's, or possibly > consignthem > > to > > indie record stores and sell 'em. for those of you that have idm > mixes > out > > there, did you guys ask for permission to use the certain tracks > thatwere > > on > > your mix cd's, or did you just go on ahead and make the mixes > without> permission? > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 14/07/2003 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 14/07/2003 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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At 10:26 PM 7/21/2003 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 9 lines Didn't Kid 606 famously not clear the samples on the Mentalist blah blah

>Didn't Kid 606 famously not clear the samples on the Mentalist blah blah >fucking Jams CD and it had to be released on the New Zealand-based Violent >Turd label to avoid copyright troubles? So there you have a well known IDM >name ignoring song ownership on a mix CD. And I can't walk into any of the >record stores here in NYC without seeing that CD... its everywhere. > >Of course, there IS also a difference between (ab)using Eminem and Missy >tracks versus tracks by IDM artists that are unlikely to be making any big >time profits on their music.

That and the songs could arguably be safe under parody rulings. I just think he didn't want to deal with that, and wanted to get the music out. Regarding using a sample of a song, the defining moment in court, in my opinion, is whether the sample is recognizeable to the point of obviously stealing. In other words, is it wrong if I use a similar synth sound or bass? No, of course not. If I use a melody in full from a popular album? Well, yeah, because I'm using the popularity of that album to further the success of that particular track.; an album full of mixes of popular songs is doing exactly that -- using all popular songs to sell itself. If they used crappy songs, no one would buy it, and if the songs were unrecognizeable, it wouldn't matter as no one would be able to file the lawsuit clearly anyway.

quoted 2 lines Like most matters with copyrights, its a complicated issue without any

>Like most matters with copyrights, its a complicated issue without any >solid answer.

i think it depends on how much of a dumbass one is when creating one's music. Ape someone and don't give them credit> invest in lawyerproof pants. Ape someone and no one can tell> how could they truly prove it in court that it's their sample and not someone else performing something similar but different and *then* mangled? Ape someone and ask kindly for permission> possibly giving them some dough or head to satisfry them. the choice is yalls derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ----- it's in your grocer's freezer --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I know this is like... soooooooooo last week, but for anyone who didn't see it: http://msl1.mit.edu/furdlog/images/metallica_hack_archive.html Also, this kind of reminds me of the whole Vanilla Ice defending himself in court about how the bass thing in Ice Ice Baby was different from the one in Queen/Bowie's Under Pressure. Derek, I'd have to disagree with you that using a familiar (even popular) melody only amounts to a cheap attempt at cashing in on the original creators popularity. Whether sampling, copying or just intentionally trying to evoke someone else's sound, you're making a reference to something and odds are, the person listening already has associations and ideas related to what you're sampling/copying/evoking so it goes beyond simply being a rip-off artist. It could be Carl Stalling cutting and pasting 2 or 3 bars of other peoples music into his warner brother cartoon scores or it could be Jimmy Page being a show off and inserting a bit of a Bach fugue (or whatever it is on that new live CD) into a guitar solo, but these kind of things boil down to something more complex than simply stealing someone elses shit. Umm.. yea... I'm not sure where I'm going with this so I'll just pass the mic or whatever. -Aaron np White Zombie - Astro Creep 2000 blah blah (rawk!) Eggytoast said:

quoted 51 lines Regarding using a sample of a song, the defining moment in court,

> Regarding using a sample of a song, the defining moment in court, > in my > opinion, is whether the sample is recognizeable to the point of > obviously > stealing. In other words, is it wrong if I use a similar synth > sound or > bass? No, of course not. If I use a melody in full from a > popular > album? Well, yeah, because I'm using the popularity of that album > to > further the success of that particular track.; > > an album full of mixes of popular songs is doing exactly that -- > using all > popular songs to sell itself. If they used crappy songs, no one > would buy > it, and if the songs were unrecognizeable, it wouldn't matter as > no one > would be able to file the lawsuit clearly anyway. > > >Like most matters with copyrights, its a complicated issue > without any > >solid answer. > > i think it depends on how much of a dumbass one is when creating > one's > music. Ape someone and don't give them credit> invest in > lawyerproof > pants. Ape someone and no one can tell> how could they truly > prove it in > court that it's their sample and not someone else performing > something > similar but different and *then* mangled? Ape someone and ask > kindly for > permission> possibly giving them some dough or head to satisfry them. > > the choice is yalls > > derek > -- > eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com > ----- > it's in your grocer's freezer > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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At 11:38 PM 7/21/2003 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 13 lines Derek, I'd have to disagree with you that using a familiar (even popular)

>Derek, I'd have to disagree with you that using a familiar (even popular) >melody only amounts to a cheap attempt at cashing in on the original >creators popularity. Whether sampling, copying or just intentionally >trying to evoke someone else's sound, you're making a reference to >something and odds are, the person listening already has associations and >ideas related to what you're sampling/copying/evoking so it goes beyond >simply being a rip-off artist. It could be Carl Stalling cutting and >pasting 2 or 3 bars of other peoples music into his warner brother cartoon >scores or it could be Jimmy Page being a show off and inserting a bit of a >Bach fugue (or whatever it is on that new live CD) into a guitar solo, but >these kind of things boil down to something more complex than simply >stealing someone elses shit. Umm.. yea... I'm not sure where I'm going >with this so I'll just pass the mic or whatever.

ah, dude, weak! yeah, there's a difference. The difference being that an homage or a nod to pop culture or something intentional and serious will more than likely mean that if you intend to make money off of it, you'd be more than happy to get in contact with the person in question and ask their permission. If I ape a popular track because it's popular and I want to ride its coattails without paying up, I'm screwed. And if I happen to use a melody or drum pattern or whatever in my own tracks, that's not a big deal as long as I don't use the original. The amen break isn't copyrighted, but the recording of the original one is. I can buy drums and record myself playing it, but if I buy the record and rip it into my computer and make mad dark drum 'n bass knockoffs, I better be willing to pay up. Bach fugues don't count, as that's public domain. We'd be having fewer problems as it was if Disney wasn't so balls-deep in extending copyright law indefinitely as more music would end up public domain anyway. And, of course, a short snippet or a lifted melody is quite different from full-blown sampling. Melodies and the like aren't copyrightable simply because they're rather nebulous and are distinct on their own. The vanilla ice thing worked because he was able to prove that his thing *was* different, and that's what the courts care about. If it's different (for example, a guitar bit that was originally a trumpet from some kenny-g album), it's not really the same, is it? If I'm not stealing it, and I'm not making a cover, then I'm not in trouble. derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ----- it's in your grocer's freezer --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org