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Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers

9 messages · 5 participants · spans 25 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 2 subjects: amon tobin, knitting factory, stupid smokers/drinkers · vbr vs fixed rate ripping
2002-01-10 20:46excm. prin. fuminaro konoye Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
└─ 2002-01-31 22:24James R Bamford RE: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
└─ 2002-01-10 22:40excm. prin. fuminaro konoye Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
├─ 2002-01-31 23:34James R Bamford RE: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
└─ 2002-02-04 01:00s r [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
├─ 2002-01-14 01:47excm. prin. fuminaro konoye Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
└─ 2002-02-04 17:46Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
2002-02-04 03:35Aaron D Meyers Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
└─ 2002-01-14 03:40excm. prin. fuminaro konoye Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
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2002-01-10 20:46excm. prin. fuminaro konoyei meant the first generation of the mp3 codec, vs. mp3pro, not reencoding, which i agree w
From:
excm. prin. fuminaro konoye
To:
Michael Plump
Cc:
Date:
Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:46:36 -0600
Subject:
Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
permalink · <239DD378-060B-11D6-B952-003065E16762@yahoo.com>
i meant the first generation of the mp3 codec, vs. mp3pro, not reencoding, which i agree will degrade the data terribly. on the vbr issue, it is my opinion that the relief of the sound may have a tinny quality to it, which may be more or less detectable depending on how high or low your bitrate is, etc., but i wouldn't want to sustain this opinion in a discussion. there are so many other issues to talk about besides, for example the number of instruments in a work. i will also say that we sometimes get to a point on this topic where discussion is really not advanceable without knowledge of engineering, programming and mathematics which i simply do not posess. i have only my intuition in reading into this topic as a tool. so i will be the first to bow out of that part of the discussion. but i will suggest, in answer to how "vbr might do that where cbr didn't", that a series comprised of one repeated operation is more faithful than a series of different operations, on principle of logic. as far not accepting anything below 192k, i never said that. i was just suggesting guidelines. i'll take what i can get, but i'll always shoot for the best. i have had all sorts of experience with files of many and diverse characteristics, and what i said is only a reflection of that. i will not try to detail this lengthy catalogue of testing, etc. ... of course, i have no idea of what you may think is a "better" file, and even less so a "good" one. what i liked about what you say is your argument for being able to recommend better vbr settings for any given cbr settings someone may be using. i think this is indeed possible, especially for a specific track, although again i do not know what your idea of "better" is... for my part i referred my arguments to the standards for psychoacoustics that are a part of the mp3 codec; that is my idea or the idea i have accepted of what sounds well. the idea of finding the optimum vbr settings is nonetheless always tempting. anyway, this was just to show what sense i think what i said may contain. your reply, despite its being intelligent, was somewhat rushed and abbreviates where it needed the most support for its arguments... (i won't stoop to calling it "a crazy statement", or claiming that "it just doesn't make 'logical sense' ", whatever that means, though). i guess it's my fault, for not being brief, so i apologize. : ) On Thursday, January 31, 2002, at 01:50 , Michael Plump wrote:
quoted 32 lines On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, excm. prin. fuminaro konoye wrote:> On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, excm. prin. fuminaro konoye wrote: > >> if you make a VBR file you are punching the midrange of the sound right >> in the gut. > > I'm sorry, that's just a crazy statement. How could VBR do that where > CBR > didn't? So you refuse to accept that anything lower than 192kbps could > possibly be good? Set your minimum compression level to that, and > you'll > have a better file. > > If you're using a good encoder and you show me a quality CBR file, I can > show you setting that would've produced a better sounding VBR file. > Think > about what you're saying. It just doesn't make logical sense. > >> 192 is if you just want a "useful" mp3, but it must be accepted that >> the >> first generation mp3 must have a higher bitrate than that for real >> quality. > > You really shouldn't ever, ever, ever re-encode your mp3s. All of a > sudden you're taking the artifacts that you produced when you encoded it > the first time, and forcing your encoder to try and encode those > artifacts. You're going to lose a lot of quality. > > I've never tried this, but I would guess that an mp3 file re-encoded > from > 256->192 would probably sound worse than one just encoded originally at > 128. Does anyone have any experience with this? >
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2002-01-31 22:24James R BamfordJust use MPC, not mp3.. natively its VBR (VBR is different to ABR... its all about the cri
From:
James R Bamford
To:
Date:
Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:24:13 -0000
Subject:
RE: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
Reply to:
Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
permalink · <PPEOJEIEFLAONFNHJPOOKEDHDFAA.jim@jimtreats.com>
Just use MPC, not mp3.. natively its VBR (VBR is different to ABR... its all about the criteria used to detect whether more or less bitrate is needed.. lame dmpreset VBR is good.. mpc is natively VBR and is highly tuned) ANyways just try mpc (aka Mpeg+, musepack) unless you need files in mp3 for portable players its the better format by a long way.. just try encoding Fat Boy Slim's Kalifornia track to see how poor mp3 is... the first 50 seconds is ruined, even at 320k CBR (well its far less at this bitrate but still evident, when its not present at 160k with mpc or ogg for that matter, but ogg is slow to encode and still behind mpc in the tuning stakes) Get the encoding/decoding software at http://www.uni-jena.de/%7Epfk/mpp/ Windows versions of the software you'll need to try it is... http://www.uni-jena.de/%7Epfk/mpp/bin/mppenc-windows-0.90o.zip the command line encoder similar to lame in operation http://www.uni-jena.de/%7Epfk/mpp/bin/mppdec-windows-0.99c.zip the command line decoder http://www.uni-jena.de/%7Epfk/mpp/bin/in_mpc_0.90e_en.zip the winamp decoder plugin The beauty is using something like feurio or EAC to rip your CDs Feurio: http://www.feurio.com/English/index.shtml EAC: http://www.exactaudiocopy.de Feurio being the better ripper for quality but requiring registering after some usage And then either encoding directly from these programs or ripping to waves (if you have a big enough harddrive) and then using monkeys audio to encode all of the waves in one go (id3 tagging them automatically at the same time from the filenames of the waves) http://www.monkeysaudio.com Monkeys is a lossless codec as in you keep the waves but shrink them perfectly by 50%.. but it can be used to encode with any other command line encoder and supports auto id3 tagging and can encode 1000s in different directories so is ideal for leaving running.. Finally MPC is VERY fast.. not quite as fast as music match jukebox but the quality out of that is so so... anything close to it quality wise is slower by a lot (nearly 4x when compared to ogg) And there you go.. the best audio compression for your electronic music at the moment... James ps. why is this on the idm list???
quoted 96 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: excm. prin. fuminaro konoye [mailto:fuminaro@yahoo.com] > Sent: 10 January 2002 20:47 > To: Michael Plump > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping > > > i meant the first generation of the mp3 codec, vs. mp3pro, not > reencoding, which i agree will degrade the data terribly. > on the vbr issue, it is my opinion that the relief of the sound may have > a tinny quality to it, which may be more or less detectable depending on > how high or low your bitrate is, etc., but i wouldn't want to sustain > this opinion in a discussion. there are so many other issues to talk > about besides, for example the number of instruments in a work. > i will also say that we sometimes get to a point on this topic where > discussion is really not advanceable without knowledge of engineering, > programming and mathematics which i simply do not posess. i have only my > intuition in reading into this topic as a tool. so i will be the first > to bow out of that part of the discussion. but i will suggest, in answer > to how "vbr might do that where cbr didn't", that a series comprised of > one repeated operation is more faithful than a series of different > operations, on principle of logic. > as far not accepting anything below 192k, i never said that. i was just > suggesting guidelines. i'll take what i can get, but i'll always shoot > for the best. i have had all sorts of experience with files of many and > diverse characteristics, and what i said is only a reflection of that. i > will not try to detail this lengthy catalogue of testing, etc. ... of > course, i have no idea of what you may think is a "better" file, and > even less so a "good" one. > what i liked about what you say is your argument for being able to > recommend better vbr settings for any given cbr settings someone may be > using. i think this is indeed possible, especially for a specific track, > although again i do not know what your idea of "better" is... for my > part i referred my arguments to the standards for psychoacoustics that > are a part of the mp3 codec; that is my idea or the idea i have accepted > of what sounds well. the idea of finding the optimum vbr settings is > nonetheless always tempting. > > anyway, this was just to show what sense i think what i said may contain. > your reply, despite its being intelligent, was somewhat rushed and > abbreviates where it needed the most support for its arguments... (i > won't stoop to calling it "a crazy statement", or claiming that "it just > doesn't make 'logical sense' ", whatever that means, though). i guess > it's my fault, for not being brief, so i apologize. : ) > > > > > > On Thursday, January 31, 2002, at 01:50 , Michael Plump wrote: > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, excm. prin. fuminaro konoye wrote: > > > >> if you make a VBR file you are punching the midrange of the sound right > >> in the gut. > > > > I'm sorry, that's just a crazy statement. How could VBR do that where > > CBR > > didn't? So you refuse to accept that anything lower than 192kbps could > > possibly be good? Set your minimum compression level to that, and > > you'll > > have a better file. > > > > If you're using a good encoder and you show me a quality CBR file, I can > > show you setting that would've produced a better sounding VBR file. > > Think > > about what you're saying. It just doesn't make logical sense. > > > >> 192 is if you just want a "useful" mp3, but it must be accepted that > >> the > >> first generation mp3 must have a higher bitrate than that for real > >> quality. > > > > You really shouldn't ever, ever, ever re-encode your mp3s. All of a > > sudden you're taking the artifacts that you produced when you encoded it > > the first time, and forcing your encoder to try and encode those > > artifacts. You're going to lose a lot of quality. > > > > I've never tried this, but I would guess that an mp3 file re-encoded > > from > > 256->192 would probably sound worse than one just encoded originally at > > 128. Does anyone have any experience with this? > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2002-01-10 22:40excm. prin. fuminaro konoyevery nice! i have been reading about lossless codecs and file "shortening", and your take
From:
excm. prin. fuminaro konoye
To:
James R Bamford
Cc:
Date:
Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:40:56 -0600
Subject:
Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
Reply to:
RE: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
permalink · <1CA69204-061B-11D6-B952-003065E16762@yahoo.com>
very nice! i have been reading about lossless codecs and file "shortening", and your take on makes it sound very attractive... it is always better to read a thorough account of someone who has had a good experience with a new method like this... i can't very well go ogg or lossless yet... many of us are tied to the mp3 format for more reasons than portable players. hopefully it will be possible sooner than anyone has thought, as portable computing devices progress and become smaller at the same time... why is this on the idm list? perhaps the community is tied to mp3 more than anyone would like... all though it's not all bad... i recall reading that the very first kid 606 remix projects with his pals were mostly done using laptops and mp3's, and i'm sure this is only one example out of many... can anyone fill in the details on that kid 606 story? On Thursday, January 31, 2002, at 04:24 , James R Bamford wrote:
quoted 186 lines Just use MPC, not mp3.. natively its VBR (VBR is different to ABR...> Just use MPC, not mp3.. natively its VBR (VBR is different to ABR... > its all > about the criteria used to detect whether more or less bitrate is > needed.. > lame dmpreset VBR is good.. mpc is natively VBR and is highly tuned) > > ANyways just try mpc (aka Mpeg+, musepack) unless you need files in mp3 > for > portable players its the better format by a long way.. just try > encoding Fat > Boy Slim's Kalifornia track to see how poor mp3 is... the first 50 > seconds > is ruined, even at 320k CBR (well its far less at this bitrate but still > evident, when its not present at 160k with mpc or ogg for that matter, > but > ogg is slow to encode and still behind mpc in the tuning stakes) > > Get the encoding/decoding software at http://www.uni-jena.de/%7Epfk/mpp/ > > Windows versions of the software you'll need to try it is... > > http://www.uni-jena.de/%7Epfk/mpp/bin/mppenc-windows-0.90o.zip the > command line encoder similar to lame in operation > > http://www.uni-jena.de/%7Epfk/mpp/bin/mppdec-windows-0.99c.zip the command > line decoder > > > http://www.uni-jena.de/%7Epfk/mpp/bin/in_mpc_0.90e_en.zip the winamp > decoder plugin > > The beauty is using something like feurio or EAC to rip your CDs > > Feurio: http://www.feurio.com/English/index.shtml > EAC: http://www.exactaudiocopy.de > > Feurio being the better ripper for quality but requiring registering > after > some usage > > And then either encoding directly from these programs or ripping to > waves > (if you have a big enough harddrive) and then using monkeys audio to > encode > all of the waves in one go (id3 tagging them automatically at the same > time > from the filenames of the waves) > > http://www.monkeysaudio.com > > Monkeys is a lossless codec as in you keep the waves but shrink them > perfectly by 50%.. but it can be used to encode with any other command > line > encoder and supports auto id3 tagging and can encode 1000s in different > directories so is ideal for leaving running.. > > Finally MPC is VERY fast.. not quite as fast as music match jukebox but > the > quality out of that is so so... anything close to it quality wise is > slower > by a lot (nearly 4x when compared to ogg) > > And there you go.. the best audio compression for your electronic music > at > the moment... > > James > > ps. why is this on the idm list??? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: excm. prin. fuminaro konoye [mailto:fuminaro@yahoo.com] >> Sent: 10 January 2002 20:47 >> To: Michael Plump >> Cc: idm@hyperreal.org >> Subject: Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping >> >> >> i meant the first generation of the mp3 codec, vs. mp3pro, not >> reencoding, which i agree will degrade the data terribly. >> on the vbr issue, it is my opinion that the relief of the sound may >> have >> a tinny quality to it, which may be more or less detectable depending >> on >> how high or low your bitrate is, etc., but i wouldn't want to sustain >> this opinion in a discussion. there are so many other issues to talk >> about besides, for example the number of instruments in a work. >> i will also say that we sometimes get to a point on this topic where >> discussion is really not advanceable without knowledge of engineering, >> programming and mathematics which i simply do not posess. i have only >> my >> intuition in reading into this topic as a tool. so i will be the first >> to bow out of that part of the discussion. but i will suggest, in >> answer >> to how "vbr might do that where cbr didn't", that a series comprised of >> one repeated operation is more faithful than a series of different >> operations, on principle of logic. >> as far not accepting anything below 192k, i never said that. i was just >> suggesting guidelines. i'll take what i can get, but i'll always shoot >> for the best. i have had all sorts of experience with files of many and >> diverse characteristics, and what i said is only a reflection of >> that. i >> will not try to detail this lengthy catalogue of testing, etc. ... of >> course, i have no idea of what you may think is a "better" file, and >> even less so a "good" one. >> what i liked about what you say is your argument for being able to >> recommend better vbr settings for any given cbr settings someone may be >> using. i think this is indeed possible, especially for a specific >> track, >> although again i do not know what your idea of "better" is... for my >> part i referred my arguments to the standards for psychoacoustics that >> are a part of the mp3 codec; that is my idea or the idea i have >> accepted >> of what sounds well. the idea of finding the optimum vbr settings is >> nonetheless always tempting. >> >> anyway, this was just to show what sense i think what i said may >> contain. >> your reply, despite its being intelligent, was somewhat rushed and >> abbreviates where it needed the most support for its arguments... (i >> won't stoop to calling it "a crazy statement", or claiming that "it >> just >> doesn't make 'logical sense' ", whatever that means, though). i guess >> it's my fault, for not being brief, so i apologize. : ) >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, January 31, 2002, at 01:50 , Michael Plump wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, excm. prin. fuminaro konoye wrote: >>> >>>> if you make a VBR file you are punching the midrange of the sound >>>> right >>>> in the gut. >>> >>> I'm sorry, that's just a crazy statement. How could VBR do that where >>> CBR >>> didn't? So you refuse to accept that anything lower than 192kbps >>> could >>> possibly be good? Set your minimum compression level to that, and >>> you'll >>> have a better file. >>> >>> If you're using a good encoder and you show me a quality CBR file, I >>> can >>> show you setting that would've produced a better sounding VBR file. >>> Think >>> about what you're saying. It just doesn't make logical sense. >>> >>>> 192 is if you just want a "useful" mp3, but it must be accepted that >>>> the >>>> first generation mp3 must have a higher bitrate than that for real >>>> quality. >>> >>> You really shouldn't ever, ever, ever re-encode your mp3s. All of a >>> sudden you're taking the artifacts that you produced when you encoded >>> it >>> the first time, and forcing your encoder to try and encode those >>> artifacts. You're going to lose a lot of quality. >>> >>> I've never tried this, but I would guess that an mp3 file re-encoded >>> from >>> 256->192 would probably sound worse than one just encoded originally >>> at >>> 128. Does anyone have any experience with this? >>> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >> >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2002-01-31 23:34James R Bamford> -----Original Message----- > From: excm. prin. fuminaro konoye [mailto:fuminaro@yahoo.co
From:
James R Bamford
To:
excm. prin. fuminaro konoye , James R Bamford
Cc:
Date:
Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:34:33 -0000
Subject:
RE: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
Reply to:
Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
permalink · <PPEOJEIEFLAONFNHJPOOCEDMDFAA.jim@jimtreats.com>
quoted 13 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: excm. prin. fuminaro konoye [mailto:fuminaro@yahoo.com] > Sent: 10 January 2002 22:41 > To: James R Bamford > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping > > > very nice! i have been reading about lossless codecs and file > "shortening", and your take on makes it sound very attractive... it is > always better to read a thorough account of someone who has had a good > experience with a new method like this... i can't very well go ogg or > lossless yet...
Don't forget MPC isn't lossless... monkeysaudio is, and so is LPAC the open standard... if anyone in the industry is using mp3 for wave transport I'd suggest immediately to move over to MPC (-insane quality) if not one of the lossless formats.. once you put bad in you can't remove it.. of course sometimes bad is good..
quoted 2 lines many of us are tied to the mp3 format for more reasons> many of us are tied to the mp3 format for more reasons > than portable players.
FOr me it was playback on a portable and my incar mp3 player that was holding me back.. but high quality VBR mp3s (lame) were taking so long to make and were growing so large that portable use was inpractical, even when CDRs were used... so I took the jump.. and besides it good to experiment.. its all free.. and only your time is required :) Check out http://www.mp3dev.org/mp3/gpsycho/quality.html for a selection of waves that are very difficult to encode... http://lame.sourceforge.net/download/samples/fatboy.wav is a clip from the fatboy slim track that I told you about.. its a good track when encoding into an mp3 of anything less than 256k CBR that can be used to test your hifi equipment.. my speakers blur the artefact so that you can't hear it, my Sennheiser HD600 headphones tho bring it firmly into view.. its horrible.. and through them phones still audible as I said at 320k/s ... mp3 just can't hack it... hopefully it will be possible sooner than anyone
quoted 2 lines has thought, as portable computing devices progress and become smaller> has thought, as portable computing devices progress and become smaller > at the same time...
Any other format support would be nice but the masses using mp3 don't help..
quoted 9 lines why is this on the idm list? perhaps the community is tied to mp3 more> > why is this on the idm list? perhaps the community is tied to mp3 more > than anyone would like... all though it's not all bad... i recall > reading that the very first kid 606 remix projects with his pals were > mostly done using laptops and mp3's, and i'm sure this is only one > example out of many... can anyone fill in the details on that kid 606 > story? > >
MPC all the way :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2002-02-04 01:00s rWhoever wrote about his impressions from Tobin show- i agree 100% eventhough i wasnt there
From:
s r
To:
Date:
Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:00:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
[idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
Reply to:
Re: [idm] VBR vs fixed rate ripping
permalink · <20020204010028.98925.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com>
Whoever wrote about his impressions from Tobin show- i agree 100% eventhough i wasnt there this time. Ok, take the rest not seriuos, but still it makes sence ========================================= Smokers(tobaco of course) must be put to concentration camps and given all they can smoke and drink buffet. Will kill them fast. Knitting factory is totally stinking outdated idiotic place of worship where idiots can put some other idiots on the stage and worship them, while another idiots make smoke go out of their filthy mouth Booze- same as above, with 2 differences- doesnt stink upon others but makes a drinker a totally wasted crap of a human being Tobin- good artist, producer, not my favourite, his stuff doesnt really have a what may be called a heavenly spark. Just some good collage, boring though. I think at this point of time good music can not come from the third world country. Good music, most of it comes from nothern cultures- german, brits, canadians, us, some french, belgium, you know what i mean third world more and more is left behind.. Look at those thousands of hip-hop and punk bands recently emerged from all those places, trying to mix ethnic with whatever- it is so outdated and pathetic. Basically Tobin comes from the same line, but being involved in the most sophisticated genre- electronic music, he can produce stuff above the usual 3rd world crappy level. ABout electronic music on the stage- Knit Factory is a worst possible venue for music. Like i sad it is good for worshiping some idiotic punk rocker jumping with the broken guitar The very idea of electronica of any kind is - it is about sound not the performance, dance oriented, no one to worship and no one to lick ass As far as looking on something - video visuals are the way to go. And they are nice. Thats why i say that knit. factory is outdated I go to the clubs to dance and hang out with friends, may be to pick up occasional sexy female for the purpose of sexual gratification or romance I dont give a shit about clowns jumping up there __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2002-01-14 01:47excm. prin. fuminaro konoyehey, s r--- don't knock the man around... it would be interesting to see which country or
From:
excm. prin. fuminaro konoye
To:
s r
Cc:
Date:
Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:47:53 -0600
Subject:
Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
Reply to:
[idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
permalink · <B9C85593-0890-11D6-9D04-003065E16762@yahoo.com>
hey, s r--- don't knock the man around... it would be interesting to see which country or countries you have some knowledge of... while of course i can agree that the self-destructive habits of oneself or others are never the nicest thing to have to look at, it doesn't help to have the perspective that only a deluded morality can give (this is not a personal attack -- i just think it is a problem we all have to deal with). have you thought overmuch about the reasons people do this or the things they seek when they go to parties, celebrate, drink, etc.? someone who is drunken is not just a waste to be looked down one's nose at, if they are worth anything they should still be interesting... what are you like when you are not entirely in your wits, even if this is not caused by alcohol, etc.? there is the historical perspective of celebration... the dyonisian aspect... although of course there is always the possibilty of one way or another not wanting to or not being able to become part of that celebration... which is ok of course... etc. ... then there is also the case for or the discussion of lucidity... no one is usually lucid all the time... how good was your post on someone else's light review of the tobin gig? i enjoyed his or her comments on the gig, even if they didn't think it was so hot... so if you aren't adding anything great to the discussion, maybe you should rethink what you are about to post : ) i.e., i didn't enjoy your post as much as the one it answers. amon tobin is not known for the quality of his live gigs apparently, so i guess people should only go if they really like his work. i think you have no real basis for deriding him, outside of your personal music taste, which i can respect, fair enough. i read your disclaimer about not taking the smoker/drinker comments seriously... the smoker's camp or whatever could be a funny idea, but the rest is morally pale... so despite the disclaimer i take issue with the morality it implies... it's terrible that such habits are so unhealthy, but enjoyment and intelligence, not to mention discussion and experience, are reasons enough to love night life of whatever means by which people arrive at their habits, which at least in my own case am somewhat attached to, although not in an unhealthy manner. the morality we are often raised with often affects our ways of life profoundly, maybe more negatively sometimes than drinking or smoking... morality should just help us enjoy ourselves more and be more perceptive, not make us be unhappy or be narrow-minded (again, this is not directed at anyone personally). as far as tobin, i would recommend giving him another shot and trying to listen to some older materials... if you like anything on ninja tune at all, some of coldcut's atomic moog materials are absolutely lovely to listen to and might constitute a good point of reference for tobin... it would be a shame for anyone to miss out on what could be a good time listening to him. if not, well, i can only say i gave a try at getting someone else to listen to music i value highly. besides, how can good music come only from some places? terrible music can come from everywhere. and if the good stuff was truly an isolated thing, what kind of dialogue would ever occur thanks to music? i hear plenty of good music where i live, thanks very much : ) some amon tobin tracks, off the top of my head, that i find at least likeable: four ton mantis slowly mission creatures the method tabakula beach resort nightlife nova reanimator the new york editor also the video for four ton mantis, as well as the one for slowly, can be seen at the ninja tune site... the four ton mantis is especially of interest... it would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on the video... i feel his music actually says a lot about the third world, and this maybe even extends to the theme of the relationship between the third world and the first (although i think the terms themselves are laughable, i use them for practical reasons). the play between feelings of strangeness or being foreign in an unknown landscape, and the contemplation of the landscape as something beautiful, personal or belonging to oneself, makes me think of the recent historical idea of latin american countries (although it could just as easily be asia) as places that have a rich past that has been made barren, as "modernity" arrives on the scene, and all that a spectator will be left with is the impression of a maze or confused, beautiful patterns... your mileage of course may vary greetings from the third world..................................................................... ............................... On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 07:00 , s r wrote:
quoted 83 lines Whoever wrote about his impressions from Tobin> Whoever wrote about his impressions from Tobin > show- i agree 100% eventhough i wasnt there this > time. > > Ok, take the rest not seriuos, but still it makes > sence > ========================================= > Smokers(tobaco of course) > must be put to concentration camps and given all > they can smoke and drink buffet. Will kill them > fast. > > Knitting factory > is totally stinking outdated idiotic place of > worship where idiots can put some > other idiots on the stage and worship them, while > another idiots make smoke go out of their filthy > mouth > > Booze- same as above, with 2 differences- > doesnt stink upon others > but makes a drinker a totally wasted crap of a > human being > > Tobin- > good artist, producer, not my favourite, his > stuff > doesnt really have a what may be called a > heavenly spark. Just some good collage, boring > though. > I think at this point of time good music can not > come from the third world country. > Good music, most of it comes from nothern > cultures- > german, brits, canadians, us, some french, > belgium, you know what i mean > third world more and more is left behind.. > Look at those thousands of hip-hop and punk bands > recently emerged from all those places, trying to > mix ethnic with whatever- > it is so outdated and pathetic. > Basically Tobin comes from the same line, but > being involved in the most sophisticated genre- > electronic music, he can produce stuff above the > usual 3rd world crappy level. > > ABout electronic music on the stage- > > Knit Factory is a worst possible venue for music. > Like i sad it is good for worshiping some idiotic > punk rocker jumping with the broken guitar > > The very idea of electronica of any kind is - > it is about sound not the performance, dance > oriented, no one to worship and no one to lick > ass > > As far as looking on something - video visuals > are the way to go. And they are nice. > > Thats why i say that knit. factory is outdated > > I go to the clubs to dance and hang out with > friends, may be to pick up occasional sexy female > for the purpose of sexual gratification or > romance > > I dont give a shit about clowns jumping up there > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2002-02-04 17:46kingmob@nmt.eduWhat about people who do drugs? Shouldn't we do something terrible to them? Especially now
From:
To:
s r
Cc:
Date:
Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:46:27 -0700 (MST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
Reply to:
[idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
permalink · <Pine.LNX.4.44.0202041045300.872-100000@eldorado.nmt.edu>
What about people who do drugs? Shouldn't we do something terrible to them? Especially now that we know they supply terrorists? I say the next time RDJ asks for a joint on stage or some such thing we all stop buying his records. On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, s r wrote:
quoted 83 lines Whoever wrote about his impressions from Tobin> Whoever wrote about his impressions from Tobin > show- i agree 100% eventhough i wasnt there this > time. > > Ok, take the rest not seriuos, but still it makes > sence > ========================================= > Smokers(tobaco of course) > must be put to concentration camps and given all > they can smoke and drink buffet. Will kill them > fast. > > Knitting factory > is totally stinking outdated idiotic place of > worship where idiots can put some > other idiots on the stage and worship them, while > another idiots make smoke go out of their filthy > mouth > > Booze- same as above, with 2 differences- > doesnt stink upon others > but makes a drinker a totally wasted crap of a > human being > > Tobin- > good artist, producer, not my favourite, his > stuff > doesnt really have a what may be called a > heavenly spark. Just some good collage, boring > though. > I think at this point of time good music can not > come from the third world country. > Good music, most of it comes from nothern > cultures- > german, brits, canadians, us, some french, > belgium, you know what i mean > third world more and more is left behind.. > Look at those thousands of hip-hop and punk bands > recently emerged from all those places, trying to > mix ethnic with whatever- > it is so outdated and pathetic. > Basically Tobin comes from the same line, but > being involved in the most sophisticated genre- > electronic music, he can produce stuff above the > usual 3rd world crappy level. > > ABout electronic music on the stage- > > Knit Factory is a worst possible venue for music. > Like i sad it is good for worshiping some idiotic > punk rocker jumping with the broken guitar > > The very idea of electronica of any kind is - > it is about sound not the performance, dance > oriented, no one to worship and no one to lick > ass > > As far as looking on something - video visuals > are the way to go. And they are nice. > > Thats why i say that knit. factory is outdated > > I go to the clubs to dance and hang out with > friends, may be to pick up occasional sexy female > for the purpose of sexual gratification or > romance > > I dont give a shit about clowns jumping up there > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2002-02-04 03:35Aaron D MeyersAlright, I know this part of your post fell under the part I wasn't supposed to necessaril
From:
Aaron D Meyers
To:
s r ,
Date:
Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:35:01 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
permalink · <3ca131c3ca1f80.3ca1f803ca131c@homemail.nyu.edu>
Alright, I know this part of your post fell under the part I wasn't supposed to necessarily take seriously but it didn't have the same smart-ass tone of your little jokes about smokers and drinkers. Maybe its just flamebait, but are you fucking kidding me? You are saying there is no legitimacy to music that comes from third world countries? I think some of the more interesting strains of electronic music is stuff that finds ways of combining ethnic music with the "IDM aesthetic". Oh wait... and you said that IDM/electronic music is the most "sophisticated genre". I guess it must've been a joke. Sorry I bothered. -Aaron
quoted 22 lines Tobin-> Tobin- > good artist, producer, not my favourite, his > stuff > doesnt really have a what may be called a > heavenly spark. Just some good collage, boring > though. > I think at this point of time good music can not > come from the third world country. > Good music, most of it comes from nothern > cultures- > german, brits, canadians, us, some french, > belgium, you know what i mean > third world more and more is left behind.. > Look at those thousands of hip-hop and punk bands > recently emerged from all those places, trying to > mix ethnic with whatever- > it is so outdated and pathetic. > Basically Tobin comes from the same line, but > being involved in the most sophisticated genre- > electronic music, he can produce stuff above the > usual 3rd world crappy level. >
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2002-01-14 03:40excm. prin. fuminaro konoye/me nods to Aaron D. Meyers On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 09:35 , Aaron D Meyers wrote:
From:
excm. prin. fuminaro konoye
To:
Aaron D Meyers
Cc:
Date:
Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:40:43 -0600
Subject:
Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
Reply to:
Re: [idm] Amon Tobin, Knitting Factory, stupid smokers/drinkers
permalink · <7CFC6D0B-08A0-11D6-9D04-003065E16762@yahoo.com>
/me nods to Aaron D. Meyers On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 09:35 , Aaron D Meyers wrote:
quoted 43 lines Alright, I know this part of your post fell under the part I wasn't> Alright, I know this part of your post fell under the part I wasn't > supposed to necessarily take seriously but it didn't have the same > smart-ass tone of your little jokes about smokers and drinkers. Maybe > its just flamebait, but are you fucking kidding me? You are saying > there is no legitimacy to music that comes from third world countries? > I think some of the more interesting strains of electronic music is > stuff that finds ways of combining ethnic music with the "IDM > aesthetic". Oh wait... and you said that IDM/electronic music is the > most "sophisticated genre". I guess it must've been a joke. Sorry I > bothered. > > -Aaron > > >> Tobin- >> good artist, producer, not my favourite, his >> stuff >> doesnt really have a what may be called a >> heavenly spark. Just some good collage, boring >> though. >> I think at this point of time good music can not >> come from the third world country. >> Good music, most of it comes from nothern >> cultures- >> german, brits, canadians, us, some french, >> belgium, you know what i mean >> third world more and more is left behind.. >> Look at those thousands of hip-hop and punk bands >> recently emerged from all those places, trying to >> mix ethnic with whatever- >> it is so outdated and pathetic. >> Basically Tobin comes from the same line, but >> being involved in the most sophisticated genre- >> electronic music, he can produce stuff above the >> usual 3rd world crappy level. >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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