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[idm] copy protection continued/minor U2 rant

22 messages · 15 participants · spans 2 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 6 subjects: copy protection · copy protection (crap) · copy protection (rant) · copy protection continued/minor u2 rant · …
2001-08-14 19:56Static Beats Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
└─ 2001-08-14 21:25Brian MacDonald Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
└─ 2001-08-14 21:38wells Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
├─ 2001-08-14 21:45j snod Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
│ └─ 2001-08-14 23:22Steven Brown Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
└─ 2001-08-14 22:39Brian MacDonald Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
2001-08-14 20:17Mxyzptlk [idm] copy protection
└─ 2001-08-14 19:21Howard Shih Re: [idm] copy protection
└─ 2001-08-14 20:46Mxyzptlk Re: [idm] copy protection
2001-08-14 22:00Static Beats Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
└─ 2001-08-14 22:02Gil Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
2001-08-14 22:18Aaron Trumm Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
├─ 2001-08-14 22:30vis-you Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
└─ 2001-08-14 23:49Jeff/Ninja Tune Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
├─ 2001-08-14 22:39Adam Piontek RE: [idm] copy protection (crap)
│ └─ 2001-08-14 22:49The Chisa RE: [idm] copy protection (crap)
│ └─ 2001-08-14 22:56Adam Piontek RE: [idm] copy protection (crap)
└─ 2001-08-14 22:52Brian MacDonald [idm] How profits from music in the U.S. are trickled..
2001-08-15 20:14Anig Browl Re: [idm] copy protection (crap)
└─ 2001-08-16 00:22The Chisa [idm] copy protection continued/minor U2 rant
2001-08-16 03:19Anig Browl Re: [idm] copy protection continued/minor U2 rant
└─ 2001-08-16 11:36Irene McC [idm] U2 gear (not as in drugs, you Brits!)
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2001-08-14 19:56Static Beats<rant> Well I'm sure glad I didn't spend $400 on an MP3 jukebox ! What about that whole as
From:
Static Beats
To:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:56:04 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <005e01c124fb$26844b40$e5464440@shimonent>
<rant> Well I'm sure glad I didn't spend $400 on an MP3 jukebox ! What about that whole aspect of the debate? There are products being sold on the market today for playing MP3's. If CD's are built to disable this then isn't it disabling another sector of the marketplace as well? Are we to assume that the only people creating MP3's are those with 'original content'. Could they fill up 2gigs on a jukebox with it? WTF? What's the point? Personally, although I love the access to such a wide range of music I'm getting really sick of the lack of fidelity in a 128kbps MP3. It does not sound rich. It sounds dull. To me it is just a high-quality preview. If I actually like the album I'll just go out and buy it. </rant> Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul ----- Original Message ----- From: Mxyzptlk To: Howard Shih Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection Well, they're either poorly mastered or copy protected. They won't rip well at all or even track for playing on the cd-rom. Some great stuff on the label, btw. jeff At 02:21 PM 8/14/2001, Howard Shih wrote: >On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote: > > Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the > > Elektrolux label are copy-protected. > >I thought it was only that country guy you've never heard of >until now... Charley Pride that had his cd 'copy-protected'. > >hs
2001-08-14 21:25Brian MacDonaldOn Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote: > <rant> > Well I'm sure glad I didn't spend $400
From:
Brian MacDonald
To:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.96.1010814141127.9603A-100000@falco.kuci.uci.edu>
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote:
quoted 13 lines <rant>> <rant> > Well I'm sure glad I didn't spend $400 on an MP3 jukebox ! > > What about that whole aspect of the debate? > There are products being sold on the market today for playing MP3's. > If CD's are built to disable this then isn't it disabling another >sector of the marketplace as well? Are we to assume that the only people > creating MP3's are those with 'original content'. Could they fill up > 2gigs on a jukebox with it? > > WTF? > > What's the point?
I definitely agree with this... I forget which Illuminati or powers that be are at the forefront of all this copyrighted CD nonsense, but it is ridiculous that these same powers could also be indirectly behind marketing the same Mp3 playing gadgets that would be rendered moot by the former anyway. On one hand, one argument offered behind copyright CDs is that it curbs the speed at which music is copied more than prevent it altogether. On the other hand, what's the point of trying to retard the inevitable? (CDplayer --> audio out --> audio in --> computer.... no digital watermarking can prevent this method of copying... whatever slight resampling differences occur)
quoted 4 lines Personally, although I love the access to such a wide range of music> Personally, although I love the access to such a wide range of music >I'm getting really sick of the lack of fidelity in a 128kbps MP3. It does >not sound rich. It sounds dull. To me it is just a high-quality preview. >If I actually like the album I'll just go out and buy it.
Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a compressed, downloadable music file format? I'm not an RIAA apologist -- but I think it would be naive to think that Mp3s were created for the purpose of digitally archiving music at high quality. (Not to call you one of those naive people, Mista Beats... just speaking rhetorically)
quoted 2 lines </rant>> > </rant>
======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 21:38wellsOn 08/14/01, Brian MacDonald wrote: > > Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the m
From:
wells
To:
Brian MacDonald
Cc:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:38:08 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <20010814143808.A14658@submute.net>
On 08/14/01, Brian MacDonald wrote:
quoted 7 lines Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a> > Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a > compressed, downloadable music file format? I'm not an RIAA apologist -- > but I think it would be naive to think that Mp3s were created for the > purpose of digitally archiving music at high quality. (Not to call you > one of those naive people, Mista Beats... just speaking rhetorically) >
Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. RIAA apologist. - wells oliver || wells@submute.net "I wouldn't know because I don't read, but I'll tell you one thing for sure: I wouldn't trust no words written down on no piece of paper especially from no Dickinson out in the town of Machine. You're just as likely to find your own grave." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 21:45j snodOn Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote: > Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RI
From:
j snod
To:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:45:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010814163949.17441C-100000@raqmonkey.actualsize.com>
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote:
quoted 2 lines Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know> Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know > you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist.
actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows me to do this. the difference is in WHO is breaking this license. the RIAA by ASSUMING we're not going to comply to the license? or those who ACTUALLY DO make/distribute copies? i could be wrong, but i think you actually have to commit a crime before penalties can be put on you for comiting it. copy-proof CDs are essentialy a PREEMPTIVE-PENALTY against consumers. and that, i believe is illegal in and of itself. -j --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 23:22Steven Brownon 08/14/01 4:45 PM, j snod at jordan@actualsize.com wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells
From:
Steven Brown
To:
j snod ,
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:22:55 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <B79F1CFE.2F5%reflekt@mac.com>
on 08/14/01 4:45 PM, j snod at jordan@actualsize.com wrote:
quoted 26 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote:> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote: >> Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know >> you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. > > actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by > manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make > as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal > use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part > of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows > me to do this. > > the difference is in WHO is breaking this license. the RIAA by > ASSUMING we're not going to comply to the license? or those who ACTUALLY > DO make/distribute copies? i could be wrong, but i think you actually > have to commit a crime before penalties can be put on you for comiting > it. copy-proof CDs are essentialy a PREEMPTIVE-PENALTY against consumers. > and that, i believe is illegal in and of itself. > > -j > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
Word to that! We do know of the "guilty until proven innocent". --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 22:39Brian MacDonaldOn Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote: > Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RI
From:
Brian MacDonald
To:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.96.1010814153815.14215A-100000@falco.kuci.uci.edu>
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote:
quoted 4 lines Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know> Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know > you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. > > RIAA apologist.
Listen, Hetfield, you better get the fuck back into the clinic before the happy people that take care of you and put things in you have to become the unhappy people. ======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 20:17MxyzptlkJust a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the Elektrolux label are
From:
Mxyzptlk
To:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:17:13 -0500
Subject:
[idm] copy protection
permalink · <5.1.0.14.2.20010814151510.01dc4ec0@mail.telocity.com>
Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the Elektrolux label are copy-protected. It seems that this may indeed spread beyond the Snoop Doggy Dog market - or, rather, has. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 19:21Howard ShihOn Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote: > Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several
From:
Howard Shih
To:
Mxyzptlk
Cc:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:21:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection
Reply to:
[idm] copy protection
permalink · <Pine.BSI.4.05L.10108141520180.7615-100000@mail.eclipse.net>
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote:
quoted 4 lines Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the> Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the > Elektrolux label are copy-protected. > It seems that this may indeed spread beyond the Snoop Doggy Dog market - > or, rather, has.
I thought it was only that country guy you've never heard of until now... Charley Pride that had his cd 'copy-protected'. hs --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 20:46MxyzptlkWell, they're either poorly mastered or copy protected. They won't rip well at all or even
From:
Mxyzptlk
To:
Howard Shih
Cc:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:46:26 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection
permalink · <5.1.0.14.2.20010814154512.01dc6010@mail.telocity.com>
Well, they're either poorly mastered or copy protected. They won't rip well at all or even track for playing on the cd-rom. Some great stuff on the label, btw. jeff At 02:21 PM 8/14/2001, Howard Shih wrote:
quoted 8 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote:>On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote: > > Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the > > Elektrolux label are copy-protected. > >I thought it was only that country guy you've never heard of >until now... Charley Pride that had his cd 'copy-protected'. > >hs
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2001-08-14 22:00Static BeatsHear Hear ! Another beautiful point ! I like to make backups of my cd's so I keep the orig
From:
Static Beats
To:
j snod
Cc:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:00:49 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <004b01c1250c$9406e680$e5464440@shimonent>
Hear Hear ! Another beautiful point ! I like to make backups of my cd's so I keep the original in mint condition (for my collection) and then use the burnt copy in my car. As im sure at LEAST one of you knows - there is nothing quite like having your car broken into and 200 of your most prized IDM (and irreplaceable) CD's stolen ! Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul ----- Original Message ----- From: j snod To: idm@hyperreal.org Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection (rant) On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote: > Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know > you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows me to do this. the difference is in WHO is breaking this license. the RIAA by ASSUMING we're not going to comply to the license? or those who ACTUALLY DO make/distribute copies? i could be wrong, but i think you actually have to commit a crime before penalties can be put on you for comiting it. copy-proof CDs are essentialy a PREEMPTIVE-PENALTY against consumers. and that, i believe is illegal in and of itself. -j
2001-08-14 22:02Gilyou know, a friend of mine recently had his car stolen. He added up the value of all the C
From:
Gil
To:
IDM list
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:02:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <Pine.LNX.4.10.10108141800560.14113-100000@nowhere.fragment.com>
you know, a friend of mine recently had his car stolen. He added up the value of all the CDs and by going on various CD retailers online it added up to around $1500 to replace the music. The insurance company gave him $200. what's the lesson here? find a cheaper hobby than music? i dunno On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote:
quoted 13 lines Hear Hear !> Hear Hear ! > > Another beautiful point ! > > I like to make backups of my cd's so I keep the original in mint > condition (for my collection) and then use the burnt copy in my car. > As im sure at LEAST one of you knows - there is nothing quite like > having your car broken into and 200 of your most prized IDM (and > irreplaceable) CD's stolen ! > > Shimone/Justes > http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind > http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul
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2001-08-14 22:18Aaron Trumm> you know, a friend of mine recently had his car stolen. He added up the > value of all t
From:
Aaron Trumm
To:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:18:16 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <00fe01c1250f$04c597c0$b3711c18@TwistedPop.com>
quoted 8 lines you know, a friend of mine recently had his car stolen. He added up the> you know, a friend of mine recently had his car stolen. He added up the > value of all the CDs and by going on various CD retailers online it added > up to around $1500 to replace the music. The insurance company gave him > $200. > > what's the lesson here? > > find a cheaper hobby than music? i dunno
that reminds me of the crusade the Hole singer is on - basically the question being, if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so goddamned poor (and I mean, like the big famous ones, some of them are making 30 grand a year at best - not that I wouldn't take that - more than I make now, and a funner career), then where the hell is all the money going?
quoted 24 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote:> > > > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote: > > > Hear Hear ! > > > > Another beautiful point ! > > > > I like to make backups of my cd's so I keep the original in mint > > condition (for my collection) and then use the burnt copy in my car. > > As im sure at LEAST one of you knows - there is nothing quite like > > having your car broken into and 200 of your most prized IDM (and > > irreplaceable) CD's stolen ! > > > > Shimone/Justes > > http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind > > http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2001-08-14 22:30vis-you> if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so > goddamned poor... then where
From:
vis-you
To:
{[--idm--]}
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:30:09 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <B79F10A1.2DC4%mguest@isdn.net>
quoted 2 lines if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so> if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so > goddamned poor... then where the hell is all the money going?
Well that's rhetorical. (the record companies) I know musicians who recorded their own CDs and built up a regular following to sell to, who later signed in order to make it "big." They made less money selling a hundred thousand cds through a label than when they just sold 500-1000 themselves to their fans. -matT nashville.tn np://Headz 2/Source Direct/The Silent Witness/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 23:49Jeff/Ninja TuneThe money goes to supports the huge and clunky infrastructure of major labels making money
From:
Jeff/Ninja Tune
To:
Aaron Trumm ,
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:49:14 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <B79F2328.931B%jeff@ninjatune.net>
The money goes to supports the huge and clunky infrastructure of major labels making money on about 5% of their acts. Don't be to sympathetic. It's a bad contract sure, but they signed it. Eyes glazed over with visions of fame makes for blindness to the fine print. Jeff on 8/14/01 5:18 PM, Aaron Trumm at aaron@nquit.com wrote:
quoted 5 lines that reminds me of the crusade the Hole singer is on - basically the> that reminds me of the crusade the Hole singer is on - basically the > question being, if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so > goddamned poor (and I mean, like the big famous ones, some of them are > making 30 grand a year at best - not that I wouldn't take that - more than I > make now, and a funner career), then where the hell is all the money going?
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2001-08-14 22:39Adam Piontek> Eyes glazed over with visions of fame > makes for blindness to the fine print. Which rai
From:
Adam Piontek
To:
Inconvenient Dark Matter
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:39:36 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] copy protection (crap)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <LOEJLJGDFOBDGGLBNFJFCEJCCAAA.apiontek@yahoo.com>
quoted 2 lines Eyes glazed over with visions of fame> Eyes glazed over with visions of fame > makes for blindness to the fine print.
Which raises an important point: fame != money People lust after fame in lieu of money, which explains another poster's comment about artists developing a following, and then making it "big" and making less money than they did when they were just peddling their music by themselves. Fame (or noteriety?) is a sexy beast... Even (or especially!) if you're a "real artist" - having an impact on a greater number of people could be more important than collectin' tha doe. re mi fa... Anyways, doesn't this discussion belong on /.? Speaking of which, here's an (slightly relevant) article I saw there a few months ago: http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/Napster/20010227_P2P_Copyright_White_Paper.html It talks about fair use and whatnot - maybe, if yer actually interested in this issue, searching for "real" information (with footnotes and references) would suit you better than trolling for suspiscious factoids provided by biased music fans! ;) Love and kibbles, -Adam --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 22:49The ChisaSee, the burr in my fur about all of this is not that I can't copy prerecorded music, lega
From:
The Chisa
To:
Adam Piontek
Cc:
Inconvenient Dark Matter
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:49:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
RE: [idm] copy protection (crap)
Reply to:
RE: [idm] copy protection (crap)
permalink · <Pine.LNX.4.21.0108141842590.13781-100000@holland.deathhouse.net>
See, the burr in my fur about all of this is not that I can't copy prerecorded music, legally or otherwise, but that a government sanctioned institution is working towards monopolistic control of recording formats in general. Once this copy-protection shit is in full effect, how is an unsigned artist / home recorder supposed to get his material recognized except by going through the "official" corporate channels? I've built up my entire career on the internet and the mp3 format -- I'm not a hugely recognized artist, but I've got some fans and some clout, which I never would have been able to accomplish in the old days of demo tapes and college radio. I'm not worried though. One hacker is worth 30000 Microsoft engineers, and anything that can be encoded can be always be cracked. They did it with DVD, they'll do it with whatever else comes down the pike. What is needed is legislation that recognizes that people are sick and tired of HAVING to go illegal routes because the corporations' money controls the flow of governmental regulation. In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system on rubble. IMHO m@2zo www.thechisa.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 22:56Adam Piontek> From: The Chisa [mailto:matt@holland.deathhouse.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 6:
From:
Adam Piontek
To:
Inconvenient Dark Matter
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:56:12 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] copy protection (crap)
Reply to:
RE: [idm] copy protection (crap)
permalink · <LOEJLJGDFOBDGGLBNFJFGEJDCAAA.apiontek@yahoo.com>
quoted 5 lines From: The Chisa [mailto:matt@holland.deathhouse.net]> From: The Chisa [mailto:matt@holland.deathhouse.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 6:49 PM > > in general. Once this copy-protection shit is in full effect, how is an > unsigned artist / home recorder supposed to get his material recognized
I'm confused - who's keeping anyone from listening to yer MP3s or a poor indie label's "unprotected" CDs (& vinyl!)? Who's working against you? Unless I'm greatly misinformed, it's not as if people will only be allowed to purchase music from these certain channels - they can still go get your MP3s if you want to let them download them, or go buy that old []pshr vinyl if it's still fer sale.
quoted 1 line except by going through the "official" corporate channels? I've built up> except by going through the "official" corporate channels? I've built up
there are "official" corporate channels *now*, but you don't have to participate in them.
quoted 2 lines In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system> In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system > on rubble. IMHO
My arrogant opinion is this: pay for what you think is worth paying for, don't listen to what you think isn't (if it's not worth paying for, why listen to it? if it ain't worth yer time, is it worth yer money, which you worked hard for?) There are multiple systems in place, and you can participate in the ones in which you wish to participate. There's some music legally offered for free that I think is great, and plenty of music not legally offered for free that I choose not to listen to because it's not worth it. Of course, it's nice to be able to hear music before paying for it, but that's a niche that's been filled already... People who want to build a new system on the rubble of the old are usually interested in controlling the new system themselves ... rebel leaders becoming dictators, etc. Power doesn't corrupt, it attracts the corruptible. Not saying you want to be what you hate, just saying that I don't understand what's working against you to keep you from doing what you're already doing in the first place. -Adam --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-14 22:52Brian MacDonald2% the artists 2% the record stores 2% label execs 94% Colombia Anyway, IDM then... ======
From:
Brian MacDonald
To:
Date:
Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:52:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
[idm] How profits from music in the U.S. are trickled..
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.96.1010814154830.14215B-100000@falco.kuci.uci.edu>
2% the artists 2% the record stores 2% label execs 94% Colombia Anyway, IDM then... ======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> "Don't... don't.... DO IT DO IT DO IT!..... BaBaBaBaBaBaby!" ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-15 20:14Anig BrowlFrom: The Chisa <matt@holland.deathhouse.net> > See, the burr in my fur about all of this
From:
Anig Browl
To:
IDM List
Date:
Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:14:33 +0100
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection (crap)
permalink · <00c601c125e2$2754f3c0$daa7869f@pauls>
From: The Chisa <matt@holland.deathhouse.net>
quoted 4 lines See, the burr in my fur about all of this is not that I can't copy> See, the burr in my fur about all of this is not that I can't copy > prerecorded music, legally or otherwise, but that a government sanctioned > institution is working towards monopolistic control of recording formats > in general.
Certainly, money talks - hence my complaints elsewhere about the DMCA. And this is also why many artists wind up signing crappy contracts with record companies - getting some money is better than none. Indeed, that's why many people sign crappy contracts with employers that require them to be tested for drug use and the like. Big entertainment companies often demand that the 'talent' agree to clauses governing personal behaviour and so on in case they wind up in rehab during that difficult third album stage.
quoted 7 lines Once this copy-protection shit is in full effect, how is an> Once this copy-protection shit is in full effect, how is an > unsigned artist / home recorder supposed to get his material recognized > except by going through the "official" corporate channels? I've built up > my entire career on the internet and the mp3 format -- I'm not a hugely > recognized artist, but I've got some fans and some clout, which I never > would have been able to accomplish in the old days of demo tapes and > college radio.
This is a very good question. I'm also putting out a little music on mp3, and I hope that it will go somewhere in the future too. To be frank, I don't know how this can eventually translate into earning a living for most people. Of course the talented artist can try to get signed to a label, and fortunately there are many fine independent labels for those of us who like weird music. And any artist can work towards building up a fan base and then making some income by touring. But if you want to reach a very wide audience, without getting into bed with Big Media, I really don't know. Personally, I don't feel so talented that I have serious expectations of making a full-time income from music, and I'd be quite happy to have an enjoyable day job and play live at small weird music events from time to time. But it must be deeply frustrating for more traditional entertainers who aspire to be on a big stage and have to make a lot of compromises to do so. Really, those of us who like/make weird music are quite well off, because the very unpopularity of this music with the average consumer is what glues the underground together. There is a critical mass of people who like good house, techno, experimental, classical music, and labels and promoters are able to work together to make structures that allow it to be heard (many orchestra musicians are in the same financial boat as bedroom composers). So while the hot new wannabe who mails a demo to Warp can't realistically expect to become an international megastar, neither do they have to worry too much about being asked to rewrite their stuff to make it more chart-friendly, or ripped off by outrageous contracts or anything. I think the real losers are the people who want to make more conventional accessible music. I'm not thinking about the latest plastic pop clones, but credible songwriters like David Gray or Tracy Chapman - they're good artists, who've chosen to say something through the medium of ballads, and that's as worthy as any other kind of music if it's done well. These artists tend to get really kicked around by the music business, because they need mainstream exposure to get any serious degree of success, but they're not big sellers. David Gray had respectable sales of two albums but got kicked off his label when they decided to focus on big-name acts. The hit he had last year with 'Babylon' was released twice by his own label before a larger one took a chance on him and picked up his 3rd album. Because artists like these can't rely on a specialist music fanbase like the ones mentioned above, lots of them get nowhere in the modern music business because it's so hard to get any radio exposure. This seems to be the problem in every market. Irish people like to congratulate themselves that our country has produced the world's biggest rock band, U2. Now I remember when I was a lad of 10 or 12 and they were having their early hits in Ireland - raw-boned pimply teenagers with dodgy haircuts (even then), and a few catchy riffs. Grand lads, but nobody thought they'd be filling stadiums five years later. Now the Irish music industry (and media) revolves around acts like the Corrs, Westlife, Samantha Mumba, and a couple of unmentionably bad dance producers - manufactured pop for people who see music as lifestyle accessory. There are a few decent new artists trying to make it with credible music, but they get about as much exposure as last year's mobile phone. I think this is very bad for music in general, and obscure genre music as well, because it means that people are growing up with the idea of music as a prepackaged commodity that comes in a limited variety of flavours, and are simply unaware that there are more choices available. That means less variety in record stores, and fewer oppotunities for musicians to play as well. The city I live in (Limerick) used to have a good concert hall - in the 80s I could go and see a band every week, and every few months there'd be some big act from the UK whose albums you might own, so people were able to see worthwhile bands like the Smiths locally. Although the city has grown by about 50% since then, there is no venue large enough to house big pop acts and not many people interested in new bands, so there are only a few venues in town that host any live music at all. Apart from a tiny cooperative started recently by some local punk/thrash bands that book a venue and get 5 or 6 artists in to make the most of it, there is almost no live music scene here any more. Forget going to a club, unless you like listening to the same tunes as the radio while surrounded by drunks trying to show off this week's new clothes/body piercing. It doesn't seem much better around the rest of the country, even in Dublin (which has almost a million people). IDM artists do come to Ireland from time to time, but these days there are just very few venues for them to play at. Well, sorry, this has turned into a kind of indictment on the state of the music industry, which I hadn't planned to write. I guess I feel this entire copyright argument is just a symptom of the much bigger problem of commodification of the music industry.
quoted 2 lines In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system> In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system > on rubble. IMHO
I wish I could agree, but without an alternative plan, the new systems tend to wind up as duplicates of the old, or even worse. In some respects, the above describes exactly how big music operates today: sign as few people as possible, overwork every new trend to death, and swamp the market with cheesy instant-appeal product. Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-16 00:22The ChisaOn Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Anig Browl wrote: > Irish people like to > congratulate themselves th
From:
The Chisa
To:
Anig Browl
Cc:
IDM List
Date:
Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:22:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
[idm] copy protection continued/minor U2 rant
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection (crap)
permalink · <Pine.LNX.4.21.0108152015250.2716-100000@holland.deathhouse.net>
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Anig Browl wrote:
quoted 6 lines Irish people like to> Irish people like to > congratulate themselves that our country has produced the world's biggest > rock band, U2. Now I remember when I was a lad of 10 or 12 and they were > having their early hits in Ireland - raw-boned pimply teenagers with dodgy > haircuts (even then), and a few catchy riffs. Grand lads, but nobody thought > they'd be filling stadiums five years later.
See, that's the funny thing about U2 -- they made an entire career out of being angry young Irish politicos, and it turned them into happy old American millionaires, and suddenly they had nothing to write about.
quoted 8 lines In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system> > In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system > > on rubble. IMHO > > I wish I could agree, but without an alternative plan, the new systems tend > to wind up as duplicates of the old, or even worse. In some respects, the > above describes exactly how big music operates today: sign as few people as > possible, overwork every new trend to death, and swamp the market with > cheesy instant-appeal product.
"New system" would imply an alternative plan, yes? We could go round and about forever with the "benefits of capitalist drive" vs "benefits of socialist sharing" arguement, I suppose -- much smarter folks than ourselves have been doing so for centuries. But, I also suppose it comes down to the ultimate reality, that one who is not willing to act towards change, will learn to be comfortable with the status quo. m@2zo --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-16 03:19Anig BrowlFrom: The Chisa <matt@holland.deathhouse.net> > See, that's the funny thing about U2 -- th
From:
Anig Browl
To:
IDM List
Date:
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:19:34 +0100
Subject:
Re: [idm] copy protection continued/minor U2 rant
permalink · <000301c1263c$2e336d20$02a4869f@pauls>
From: The Chisa <matt@holland.deathhouse.net>
quoted 3 lines See, that's the funny thing about U2 -- they made an entire career out of> See, that's the funny thing about U2 -- they made an entire career out of > being angry young Irish politicos, and it turned them into happy old > American millionaires, and suddenly they had nothing to write about.
I'm rather surprised they're still so popular (their next American tour is expected to be the highest-grossing tour in rock history). As you say they don't really have anything to write about now apart from cheerful ditties about how wonderful life/love/weather is. At least they don't take themselves too seriously. I still like quite a lot of their stuff from the mid 80s/early 90s, it's pretty good as rock music goes. I might be able to get a backstage pass to one of their irish concerts later this month, and I'd probably go along just to see what a megastar sound setup looks like from the engineering chair.
quoted 1 line "New system" would imply an alternative plan, yes?> "New system" would imply an alternative plan, yes?
No, just a new logo usually.
quoted 3 lines We could go round and about forever with the "benefits of capitalist> We could go round and about forever with the "benefits of capitalist > drive" vs "benefits of socialist sharing" arguement, I suppose -- much > smarter folks than ourselves have been doing so for centuries.
I don't want to have a political argument, but I don't think socialist sharing really works for music. It would be lovely if we could all give away our art/skills and not have to worry about the bills, but musicians have living expenses like everyone else. Unless they can also juggle a day job, there's probably no money coming in. Artistic grants are a fine thing but then of course that's another mechanism for driving people's taste. (Actually there is a passable compromise in Ireland - professional artists pay no income tax! Really!). It's quite ironic (thank you Alanis) that right now, when it has never been cheaper to record and produce an album, big labels should narrow their focus to high-volume disposable crap music so agressively. I have a feeling that the music industry will self-destruct in some interesting way. I'm sure there's an excellent analogy for this situation in history or economics, but I haven't spotted it yet. Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-08-16 11:36Irene McCOn 16 Aug 2001, at 4:19, Anig Browl wrote: re: U2 > I'd probably go along just to see what
From:
Irene McC
To:
,
Date:
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:36:01 +0200
Subject:
[idm] U2 gear (not as in drugs, you Brits!)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] copy protection continued/minor U2 rant
permalink · <3B7BCC41.28355.E30E9D@localhost>
On 16 Aug 2001, at 4:19, Anig Browl wrote: re: U2
quoted 2 lines I'd probably go along just to see what a megastar sound setup> I'd probably go along just to see what a megastar sound setup > looks like from the engineering chair.
F**ing AWESOME, if their Popmart tour back in ?'98 was anything to go by... they did a stadium here in Cape Town and medical staff were passing cups of water over the heads of the crowd to people jammed in the audience, while passed-out people were literally heaved out into fresh air. (And there were quite a number who fainted in my immediate radius. There was, quite frankly, a shortage of oxygen (and this was outdoors). Their stage set was huuuuge, racks of amps / speakers on either side of the stage reaching up into the stratosphere, their mixing desk was the size of a rugby field. I forget the details now, but at the time it was published how many private jets as well as truck- loads it had taken to transport all the gear. It's mind boggling. Umm, this is not IDM, is it? This is not just one guy with a laptop! I *) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org