IDM Mailing Archive

<rant> Well I'm sure glad I didn't spend $400 on an MP3 jukebox ! What about that whole aspect of the debate? There are products being sold on the market today for playing MP3's. If CD's are built to disable this then isn't it disabling another sector of the marketplace as well? Are we to assume that the only people creating MP3's are those with 'original content'. Could they fill up 2gigs on a jukebox with it? WTF? What's the point? Personally, although I love the access to such a wide range of music I'm getting really sick of the lack of fidelity in a 128kbps MP3. It does not sound rich. It sounds dull. To me it is just a high-quality preview. If I actually like the album I'll just go out and buy it. </rant> Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul ----- Original Message ----- From: Mxyzptlk To: Howard Shih Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection Well, they're either poorly mastered or copy protected. They won't rip well at all or even track for playing on the cd-rom. Some great stuff on the label, btw. jeff At 02:21 PM 8/14/2001, Howard Shih wrote: >On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote: > > Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the > > Elektrolux label are copy-protected. > >I thought it was only that country guy you've never heard of >until now... Charley Pride that had his cd 'copy-protected'. > >hs

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote:

quoted 13 lines <rant>

> <rant> > Well I'm sure glad I didn't spend $400 on an MP3 jukebox ! > > What about that whole aspect of the debate? > There are products being sold on the market today for playing MP3's. > If CD's are built to disable this then isn't it disabling another >sector of the marketplace as well? Are we to assume that the only people > creating MP3's are those with 'original content'. Could they fill up > 2gigs on a jukebox with it? > > WTF? > > What's the point?

I definitely agree with this... I forget which Illuminati or powers that be are at the forefront of all this copyrighted CD nonsense, but it is ridiculous that these same powers could also be indirectly behind marketing the same Mp3 playing gadgets that would be rendered moot by the former anyway. On one hand, one argument offered behind copyright CDs is that it curbs the speed at which music is copied more than prevent it altogether. On the other hand, what's the point of trying to retard the inevitable? (CDplayer --> audio out --> audio in --> computer.... no digital watermarking can prevent this method of copying... whatever slight resampling differences occur)

quoted 4 lines Personally, although I love the access to such a wide range of music

> Personally, although I love the access to such a wide range of music >I'm getting really sick of the lack of fidelity in a 128kbps MP3. It does >not sound rich. It sounds dull. To me it is just a high-quality preview. >If I actually like the album I'll just go out and buy it.

Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a compressed, downloadable music file format? I'm not an RIAA apologist -- but I think it would be naive to think that Mp3s were created for the purpose of digitally archiving music at high quality. (Not to call you one of those naive people, Mista Beats... just speaking rhetorically)

quoted 2 lines </rant>

> > </rant>

======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 08/14/01, Brian MacDonald wrote:

quoted 7 lines Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a

> > Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a > compressed, downloadable music file format? I'm not an RIAA apologist -- > but I think it would be naive to think that Mp3s were created for the > purpose of digitally archiving music at high quality. (Not to call you > one of those naive people, Mista Beats... just speaking rhetorically) >

Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. RIAA apologist. - wells oliver || wells@submute.net "I wouldn't know because I don't read, but I'll tell you one thing for sure: I wouldn't trust no words written down on no piece of paper especially from no Dickinson out in the town of Machine. You're just as likely to find your own grave." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote:

quoted 2 lines Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know

> Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know > you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist.

actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows me to do this. the difference is in WHO is breaking this license. the RIAA by ASSUMING we're not going to comply to the license? or those who ACTUALLY DO make/distribute copies? i could be wrong, but i think you actually have to commit a crime before penalties can be put on you for comiting it. copy-proof CDs are essentialy a PREEMPTIVE-PENALTY against consumers. and that, i believe is illegal in and of itself. -j --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

on 08/14/01 4:45 PM, j snod at jordan@actualsize.com wrote:

quoted 26 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote:

> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote: >> Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know >> you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. > > actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by > manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make > as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal > use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part > of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows > me to do this. > > the difference is in WHO is breaking this license. the RIAA by > ASSUMING we're not going to comply to the license? or those who ACTUALLY > DO make/distribute copies? i could be wrong, but i think you actually > have to commit a crime before penalties can be put on you for comiting > it. copy-proof CDs are essentialy a PREEMPTIVE-PENALTY against consumers. > and that, i believe is illegal in and of itself. > > -j > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

Word to that! We do know of the "guilty until proven innocent". --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote:

quoted 4 lines Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know

> Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know > you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. > > RIAA apologist.

Listen, Hetfield, you better get the fuck back into the clinic before the happy people that take care of you and put things in you have to become the unhappy people. ======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the Elektrolux label are copy-protected. It seems that this may indeed spread beyond the Snoop Doggy Dog market - or, rather, has. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote:

quoted 4 lines Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the

> Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the > Elektrolux label are copy-protected. > It seems that this may indeed spread beyond the Snoop Doggy Dog market - > or, rather, has.

I thought it was only that country guy you've never heard of until now... Charley Pride that had his cd 'copy-protected'. hs --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well, they're either poorly mastered or copy protected. They won't rip well at all or even track for playing on the cd-rom. Some great stuff on the label, btw. jeff At 02:21 PM 8/14/2001, Howard Shih wrote:

quoted 8 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote: > > Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the > > Elektrolux label are copy-protected. > >I thought it was only that country guy you've never heard of >until now... Charley Pride that had his cd 'copy-protected'. > >hs

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<but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a person's inalieable right to copy> Getting way off topic - rights ought not to be things which a law gives you - they're things you have unless an existing law conflicts with them. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Trumm [mailto:aaron@nquit.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 5:55 PM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection (rant)

quoted 6 lines actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by

> actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by > manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make > as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal > use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part > of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows > me to do this.

I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to copying cd's over and over as long as its for personal use. certainly the idea is that companies don't mind if you copy but ONLY if it's for personal use, but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a person's inalieable right to copy ----------------------------------------------------------------- Aaron Trumm NQuit (Never Never Quit) aaron@nquit.com www.nquit.com Music Available At: * http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/thirdoption * http://www.joesgrille.com/store/p-8633.html * http://thirdoption.iuma.com * http://ubl.artistdirect.com/fp2.asp?layout=artist_card&artistid=476400 * http://www.cdstreet.com/artists/nquit/ * http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005JJEY/qid%3D988850999/104-919049 6-7143939 * http://www.mp3.com/thirdoption * http://www.stationmp3.com/stationMP3/musicians/index.cfm?id=204 * http://www.musicbuilder.com/Third_Option/ * http://thirdoption.djcentral.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Aaron Trumm wrote:

quoted 5 lines I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to

> I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to > copying cd's over and over as long as its for personal use. certainly the > idea is that companies don't mind if you copy but ONLY if it's for personal > use, but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a person's > inalieable right to copy

yes it's called "fair use of copyrighted works." search for "fair use" on google and you'll find plenty of shit in the lawbooks protecting consumers' rights to fair use (aka personal copies). -j --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Within the copyright act I've always understood that multiple copies were allowed to be made for educational purpose (ie. if a teacher wanted to make 50 copies of a Sun Ra CD for a tool to teach a class on free-jazz, etc...) Other copies made could be considered non-infringement when put against an "effect on marketplace" argument. But that's an argument that everyone will have a different view on and is possibly relative to the overall sales of the artist in question. So it could be argued that if you make a backup of your CD there was no effect on the marketplace because (rightly so) you weren't going to buy 2 copies anyway. However the law itself doesn't 100% allow for personal copies to be made, and I would doubt this law could be held up as a legal argument that copyright encoding/protecting CD's is an illegal action. But hey I'm not a lawyer. My specialty is label running not dissecting legal text so it's entirely possible I'm wrong. Jeff on 8/14/01 5:01 PM, j snod at jordan@actualsize.com wrote:

quoted 19 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Aaron Trumm wrote:

> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Aaron Trumm wrote: >> I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to >> copying cd's over and over as long as its for personal use. certainly the >> idea is that companies don't mind if you copy but ONLY if it's for personal >> use, but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a person's >> inalieable right to copy > > yes it's called "fair use of copyrighted works." search for "fair > use" on google and you'll find plenty of shit in the lawbooks protecting > consumers' rights to fair use (aka personal copies). > > -j > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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for those of you interested in fair use law, you ought to check out _fair use: the story of the letter u and the numeral 2_ which was written by negativland and details their experiences with copyright law and island records after they released something which bore a distinct resemblance to a certain u2 release... it's not entirely relevant to this discussion, but it is informative and amusing. lalala, gregory __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 9 lines for those of you interested in fair use law,

>for those of you interested in fair use law, >you ought to check out _fair use: the story >of the letter u and the numeral 2_ which was >written by negativland and details their experiences >with copyright law and island records after they >released something which bore a distinct resemblance >to a certain u2 release... >it's not entirely relevant to this discussion, but >it is informative and amusing.

Pretty much any issue you want to take up involving copyright, Negativland is right on the money. Too bad they are not millionaires by now. They deserve it. -- ^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^- omz beautamous loaf recordings http://www.hotweird.com/loaf/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

[Aaron Trumm <aaron@nquit.com>]

quoted 5 lines I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to

> I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to > copying cd's over and over as long as its for personal use. certainly the > idea is that companies don't mind if you copy but ONLY if it's for personal > use, but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a person's > inalieable right to copy

Audio Home Recording Act of 1992. http://www.atomly.com/random/ahra.html -- :: atomly :: atomly@atomly.com | atomly@my2way.com http://www.atomly.com/ | 877.741.3571 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I don't know how MANY copies you are allowed, but if you own the original work, it IS legal to make at least A copy for personal use. jeff

quoted 6 lines I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to

>I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to >copying cd's over and over as long as its for personal use. certainly the >idea is that companies don't mind if you copy but ONLY if it's for personal >use, but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a person's >inalieable right to copy >

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Well actually my reference to the quality of 128K MP3's was in relation to all these companies trying to fight the battle. It is not cd quality. It does not replace the original. It also does not keep me from buying the CD ! Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm listening to an MP3 rip of Fila Brazillia's - Black Market Gardening. It's in my very high-end car stereo and it just sounds so DULL! It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you can no longer listen to music before you buy it OR return opened music) means that I can decide whether or not I want the original... Im not referring to the creation of MP3's - I'm referring to the industries view that somehow downloadable MP3's can *replace* traditional media. This rolls in to the DIVX;-) debate as well. Movie houses are now getting *worried* because of all the freely available movies out there.... Do they really think compressed movies are going to replace DVD, VHS, or even the Movive Screen? And now, to top it all off - post Napster - the record companies are all scuttling to be the first to roll out some kind of "subscription" service for downloadable music. Bastards! Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul On 08/14/01, Brian MacDonald wrote: > > Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a > compressed, downloadable music file format? I'm not an RIAA apologist -- > but I think it would be naive to think that Mp3s were created for the > purpose of digitally archiving music at high quality. (Not to call you > one of those naive people, Mista Beats... just speaking rhetorically) >

There has been too many replies to this matter for me to sit and read all of them....so I hope Im not off subject here.... I dont think that any ultra compact digital medium is going to replace CD,DVD and all the other new formats coming about anytime too soon. But I do have sympathy for those on the side of wanting to make it very hard for people to duplicate copyrighted material. I also like to burn back ups of cd's and make mixed compilation cd's so I dont have to keep changing the disk when Im driving.... But, when us somewhat honest people can do that 100 more can do it for the purpose of resale and free distribution. Now I could care less about the "big wig" corporate types missing out on a few thousand or even a few million per year....BUT when they take a cut, the artists and entertainers take a cut as well. This is especially hurtful when it takes place in a more "underground" genre like I.D.M., "Industrial", etc. etc....or just the more independent artists. Its nice you think, getting people free music in return for more free music, or whatever the case may be. But that hurts the artists finances, aside from needing all the money we can get to make an honest and comfortable living doing what we love, and what the listeners enjoy as well, the more money that makes its way to the artists can mean better releases, more touring etc. But when criminals like the bastard who ran Napster come along...no thats not a revolution, thats theft. And I think he should have been punished a whole hell-of-a-lot harder than he was. And as far as sampling another persons music..beats whatever....no! thats just stupid in my humble opinion. To make "music" based on another persons creativity and hard work is not music or even art...I dont know what to call it really. I mean if you do it as a remix or a cover with the artists permission thats fine...but people like puff daddy...what a friggin' joke! With the technology of today, any of us could do that. I personally would take someone to the cleaners if I caught them jacking my beats in one "their" songs. xh [sorry if this has been an off topic reply, maybe you could voice your opinion on these matters as well] ===== Kounterakt in constant evolution.http://www.kounterakt.cjb.net ("Industrial",Rock, Experimental, I.D.M., DnB hybrid craziness)Circle Of Anxietyhttp://www.cofanx.cjb.net(should appeal to fans of all sorts of I.D.M.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Hear Hear ! Another beautiful point ! I like to make backups of my cd's so I keep the original in mint condition (for my collection) and then use the burnt copy in my car. As im sure at LEAST one of you knows - there is nothing quite like having your car broken into and 200 of your most prized IDM (and irreplaceable) CD's stolen ! Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul ----- Original Message ----- From: j snod To: idm@hyperreal.org Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection (rant) On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote: > Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know > you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows me to do this. the difference is in WHO is breaking this license. the RIAA by ASSUMING we're not going to comply to the license? or those who ACTUALLY DO make/distribute copies? i could be wrong, but i think you actually have to commit a crime before penalties can be put on you for comiting it. copy-proof CDs are essentialy a PREEMPTIVE-PENALTY against consumers. and that, i believe is illegal in and of itself. -j

you know, a friend of mine recently had his car stolen. He added up the value of all the CDs and by going on various CD retailers online it added up to around $1500 to replace the music. The insurance company gave him $200. what's the lesson here? find a cheaper hobby than music? i dunno On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote:

quoted 13 lines Hear Hear !

> Hear Hear ! > > Another beautiful point ! > > I like to make backups of my cd's so I keep the original in mint > condition (for my collection) and then use the burnt copy in my car. > As im sure at LEAST one of you knows - there is nothing quite like > having your car broken into and 200 of your most prized IDM (and > irreplaceable) CD's stolen ! > > Shimone/Justes > http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind > http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul

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good points - I think the industry worries based on a view that soon the file structure will allow for files that ARE as good as cd's - that technology is moving forward faster and is more widely available than it's traditional media adversaries the CD and DVD - cd's won't ever be of a different quality, but DVD's are of a MUCH higher quality, but there is no market yet for music DVD's, and that is not as near on the horizon as the advent of mp3 type files and such that are of the same or better quality as CD's - I think that's the major worry - it's all a bunch of fear borne greed, really - but as a musician I can understand the fear - I'm constantly afraid I'll never be able to make ends meet with album sales and performances - of course I never have made ends meet, let alone made millions of dollars - I'm waiting to see what will happen when I have huge success - whether I'll feel generous about the music, or whether I'll want to horde my art for only those who pay - as it is right now, I might be wiser to demand my fare pay more often, but on the other hand, maybe my tendency to just give away music will lead to fame - it's a crazy economic question that some people would say is ridiculous - ask some farmers whether they think people should be allowed to make their living simply by making music, and you'll get a different answer than a poet would give... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Static Beats" <static@staticbeats.com> To: <brianm@kuci.org> Cc: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection (rant) Well actually my reference to the quality of 128K MP3's was in relation to all these companies trying to fight the battle. It is not cd quality. It does not replace the original. It also does not keep me from buying the CD ! Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm listening to an MP3 rip of Fila Brazillia's - Black Market Gardening. It's in my very high-end car stereo and it just sounds so DULL! It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you can no longer listen to music before you buy it OR return opened music) means that I can decide whether or not I want the original... Im not referring to the creation of MP3's - I'm referring to the industries view that somehow downloadable MP3's can *replace* traditional media. This rolls in to the DIVX;-) debate as well. Movie houses are now getting *worried* because of all the freely available movies out there.... Do they really think compressed movies are going to replace DVD, VHS, or even the Movive Screen? And now, to top it all off - post Napster - the record companies are all scuttling to be the first to roll out some kind of "subscription" service for downloadable music. Bastards! Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul On 08/14/01, Brian MacDonald wrote: > > Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a > compressed, downloadable music file format? I'm not an RIAA apologist -- > but I think it would be naive to think that Mp3s were created for the > purpose of digitally archiving music at high quality. (Not to call you > one of those naive people, Mista Beats... just speaking rhetorically) > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines <but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a person's

> <but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a person's > inalieable right to copy> > > Getting way off topic - rights ought not to be things which a law gives > you - they're things you have unless an existing law conflicts with them.

unfortunately the discussion seemed to be about LAW, which might be defined as what the working government (which in theory reflects the view of the people) decides are rights - so what ARE the laws and what OUGHT to be the laws (according to you), may often be two different things - that this happens is why we have freedom of speech, voting, and other very clunky and inefficient and ways of changing law (inefficient? that may be an understatement. perhaps the whole idea that we as people have any mechanism for changing US law is a total farse) obviously I don't believe LAW is the be all end all, or that our government reflects the view of our people *laugh* - but there are two different discussions - one is what is the law in this country, and one is what OUGHT to be the law - there is no legal right that I know of to copy discs (I bet that question has not gone before any legislative body) - moral right? maybe. I certainly do agree with the guys who copy their original cds and listen to the copies and keep the originals safe. man that's fucking smart. as far as a philosophical discussion on what a human's inalieable rights are, that's pretty galdern far off topic here, and unless we all want to write 1000 page novels and pass them around, we ain't gettin' anywhere with that on this list *laugh*

quoted 17 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Trumm [mailto:aaron@nquit.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 5:55 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection (rant) > > > > actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by > > manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make > > as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal > > use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part > > of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows > > me to do this. > > I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to > copying cd's over and over as long as its for personal use. certainly the > idea is that companies don't mind if you copy but ONLY if it's for

personal

quoted 1 line use, but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a

> use, but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a

person's

quoted 17 lines inalieable right to copy

> inalieable right to copy > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Aaron Trumm > NQuit (Never Never Quit) > aaron@nquit.com > www.nquit.com > > Music Available At: > * http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/thirdoption > * http://www.joesgrille.com/store/p-8633.html > * http://thirdoption.iuma.com > * http://ubl.artistdirect.com/fp2.asp?layout=artist_card&artistid=476400 > * http://www.cdstreet.com/artists/nquit/ > * >

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005JJEY/qid%3D988850999/104-919049

quoted 18 lines 6-7143939

> 6-7143939 > * http://www.mp3.com/thirdoption > * http://www.stationmp3.com/stationMP3/musicians/index.cfm?id=204 > * http://www.musicbuilder.com/Third_Option/ > * http://thirdoption.djcentral.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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God is THAT Courney Loves next completley tastless fixation? I swear that woman has no shame. "WAAAHH I'm not popular anymore, no one wants to see me throw a tempertantrum on stage anymore, they all like that techno stuff now, WAAA I dont make enough money because too maney people are employed at record labels, WAAAH I want that money for my coke habit, WAAAH," Speaking of free speech, if it remotely relates, Courteny Love personally called up a Movie theater some friends of mine run, and threatened to sue them for showing an equally tasteless documentary called "Kurt and Courtney". Goddamn rock people can be stupid. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Aaron Trumm wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Aaron Trumm wrote: > > I've never heard or read anywhere that said you have a legal right to > > copying cd's over and over as long as its for personal use. certainly

the

quoted 1 line idea is that companies don't mind if you copy but ONLY if it's for

> > idea is that companies don't mind if you copy but ONLY if it's for

personal

quoted 1 line use, but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a

> > use, but I'd wager there's no law on the books having to do with a

person's

quoted 7 lines inalieable right to copy

> > inalieable right to copy > > yes it's called "fair use of copyrighted works." search for "fair > use" on google and you'll find plenty of shit in the lawbooks protecting > consumers' rights to fair use (aka personal copies). > > -j

in that case you have a good point. I wonder what fair use law says about copy protection. probably nothing, probably there's a loophole - or maybe not - maybe that's why technology exists to allow one and only one copy of things (that's been around since early days of software copy protection) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 8 lines you know, a friend of mine recently had his car stolen. He added up the

> you know, a friend of mine recently had his car stolen. He added up the > value of all the CDs and by going on various CD retailers online it added > up to around $1500 to replace the music. The insurance company gave him > $200. > > what's the lesson here? > > find a cheaper hobby than music? i dunno

that reminds me of the crusade the Hole singer is on - basically the question being, if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so goddamned poor (and I mean, like the big famous ones, some of them are making 30 grand a year at best - not that I wouldn't take that - more than I make now, and a funner career), then where the hell is all the money going?

quoted 24 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote:

> > > > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote: > > > Hear Hear ! > > > > Another beautiful point ! > > > > I like to make backups of my cd's so I keep the original in mint > > condition (for my collection) and then use the burnt copy in my car. > > As im sure at LEAST one of you knows - there is nothing quite like > > having your car broken into and 200 of your most prized IDM (and > > irreplaceable) CD's stolen ! > > > > Shimone/Justes > > http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind > > http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 2 lines if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so

> if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so > goddamned poor... then where the hell is all the money going?

Well that's rhetorical. (the record companies) I know musicians who recorded their own CDs and built up a regular following to sell to, who later signed in order to make it "big." They made less money selling a hundred thousand cds through a label than when they just sold 500-1000 themselves to their fans. -matT nashville.tn np://Headz 2/Source Direct/The Silent Witness/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

The money goes to supports the huge and clunky infrastructure of major labels making money on about 5% of their acts. Don't be to sympathetic. It's a bad contract sure, but they signed it. Eyes glazed over with visions of fame makes for blindness to the fine print. Jeff on 8/14/01 5:18 PM, Aaron Trumm at aaron@nquit.com wrote:

quoted 5 lines that reminds me of the crusade the Hole singer is on - basically the

> that reminds me of the crusade the Hole singer is on - basically the > question being, if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so > goddamned poor (and I mean, like the big famous ones, some of them are > making 30 grand a year at best - not that I wouldn't take that - more than I > make now, and a funner career), then where the hell is all the money going?

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quoted 2 lines Eyes glazed over with visions of fame

> Eyes glazed over with visions of fame > makes for blindness to the fine print.

Which raises an important point: fame != money People lust after fame in lieu of money, which explains another poster's comment about artists developing a following, and then making it "big" and making less money than they did when they were just peddling their music by themselves. Fame (or noteriety?) is a sexy beast... Even (or especially!) if you're a "real artist" - having an impact on a greater number of people could be more important than collectin' tha doe. re mi fa... Anyways, doesn't this discussion belong on /.? Speaking of which, here's an (slightly relevant) article I saw there a few months ago: http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/Napster/20010227_P2P_Copyright_White_Paper.html It talks about fair use and whatnot - maybe, if yer actually interested in this issue, searching for "real" information (with footnotes and references) would suit you better than trolling for suspiscious factoids provided by biased music fans! ;) Love and kibbles, -Adam --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

See, the burr in my fur about all of this is not that I can't copy prerecorded music, legally or otherwise, but that a government sanctioned institution is working towards monopolistic control of recording formats in general. Once this copy-protection shit is in full effect, how is an unsigned artist / home recorder supposed to get his material recognized except by going through the "official" corporate channels? I've built up my entire career on the internet and the mp3 format -- I'm not a hugely recognized artist, but I've got some fans and some clout, which I never would have been able to accomplish in the old days of demo tapes and college radio. I'm not worried though. One hacker is worth 30000 Microsoft engineers, and anything that can be encoded can be always be cracked. They did it with DVD, they'll do it with whatever else comes down the pike. What is needed is legislation that recognizes that people are sick and tired of HAVING to go illegal routes because the corporations' money controls the flow of governmental regulation. In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system on rubble. IMHO m@2zo www.thechisa.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines From: The Chisa [mailto:matt@holland.deathhouse.net]

> From: The Chisa [mailto:matt@holland.deathhouse.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 6:49 PM > > in general. Once this copy-protection shit is in full effect, how is an > unsigned artist / home recorder supposed to get his material recognized

I'm confused - who's keeping anyone from listening to yer MP3s or a poor indie label's "unprotected" CDs (& vinyl!)? Who's working against you? Unless I'm greatly misinformed, it's not as if people will only be allowed to purchase music from these certain channels - they can still go get your MP3s if you want to let them download them, or go buy that old []pshr vinyl if it's still fer sale.

quoted 1 line except by going through the "official" corporate channels? I've built up

> except by going through the "official" corporate channels? I've built up

there are "official" corporate channels *now*, but you don't have to participate in them.

quoted 2 lines In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system

> In short: buy nothing, steal everything, destroy system, build new system > on rubble. IMHO

My arrogant opinion is this: pay for what you think is worth paying for, don't listen to what you think isn't (if it's not worth paying for, why listen to it? if it ain't worth yer time, is it worth yer money, which you worked hard for?) There are multiple systems in place, and you can participate in the ones in which you wish to participate. There's some music legally offered for free that I think is great, and plenty of music not legally offered for free that I choose not to listen to because it's not worth it. Of course, it's nice to be able to hear music before paying for it, but that's a niche that's been filled already... People who want to build a new system on the rubble of the old are usually interested in controlling the new system themselves ... rebel leaders becoming dictators, etc. Power doesn't corrupt, it attracts the corruptible. Not saying you want to be what you hate, just saying that I don't understand what's working against you to keep you from doing what you're already doing in the first place. -Adam --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2% the artists 2% the record stores 2% label execs 94% Colombia Anyway, IDM then... ======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> "Don't... don't.... DO IT DO IT DO IT!..... BaBaBaBaBaBaby!" ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

yep exactly - but the real kicker is, labels are not making profits :) at least not the majors - courtney love wrote this long tirade, the jist I got from it was there are too many middle men - the business is run in such a way that nobody profits in a big way of course, maybe SHE should learn how to live with 40,000 dollars - I've lived on less than 20 for years and I don't get to run around doing shows every fuckin day

quoted 6 lines if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so

> > if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so > > goddamned poor... then where the hell is all the money going? > > Well that's rhetorical. (the record companies) > > I know musicians who recorded their own CDs and built up a regular

following

quoted 1 line to sell to, who later signed in order to make it "big." They made less

> to sell to, who later signed in order to make it "big." They made less

money

quoted 13 lines selling a hundred thousand cds through a label than when they just sold

> selling a hundred thousand cds through a label than when they just sold > 500-1000 themselves to their fans. > > -matT > nashville.tn > > np://Headz 2/Source Direct/The Silent Witness/ > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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From: Static Beats <static@staticbeats.com>

quoted 1 line It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you

> It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you

can no longer listen to music before you buy it OR return opened music) means that I can decide whether or not I want the original... Um. Despite living in Nowheresville when it comes to music, my local record stores (including HMV) will allow me to listen to an album before I buy it (and I don't always make a purchase), and will also accept returns if they are in original condition and accompanied by a receipt. I can't really get worked up about the digital copy protection on CDs - pro gear (eg a studio CD player with an S/PDIF out) will allow one to get around it, and one can always just copy via audio. OK this is not as convenient as ripping an mp3 in one go, but I don't think mp3 sounds all that great anyway. For something very light and portable I'd prefer minidisc.

quoted 1 line Im not referring to the creation of MP3's - I'm referring to the

> Im not referring to the creation of MP3's - I'm referring to the

industries view that somehow downloadable MP3's can *replace* traditional media. It' true that this is largely a cynical exercise by the large record companies to maintain control over as many media as possible, which is a rip-off. There are also levies on blank CDRs which increase the cost to the consumer, but I've not heard of any artists (or even smaller labels) benefitting from this. Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

From: Aaron Trumm <aaron@nquit.com>

quoted 4 lines in that case you have a good point. I wonder what fair use law says about

> in that case you have a good point. I wonder what fair use law says about > copy protection. probably nothing, probably there's a loophole - or maybe > not - maybe that's why technology exists to allow one and only one copy of > things (that's been around since early days of software copy protection)

As I understand it, fair use gives you a right to copy for your own personal enjoyment, but does not place any obligation on the copyright holder to make this easy for you. So I could publish a book using some special paper and ink that would be impossible to photocopy, and it would be perfectly legit. This is one reason I don't lose much sleep over copy protection - if a company is intent on doing it, and I'm intent on breaking it, then I'll find a way fairly easily. What *does* bother me is stuff like the Millenium Digital Copyright Act in the USA, a standard that the US is pushing to have adopted internationally. This would make it illegal to break copy protection, to make tools for doing so, or even to tell other people how to make such tools themselves. Recently a Russian programmer was arrested in Washington DC (though later released) because he works for a Russian company that makes a software tool to circumvent some commercial copy protection (I forget which one). On a similar basis, programmers in Sweden (I think) have been sued for posting the source code used to bypass the region encoding on DVD. As you can guess, I think this is a terribly flawed piece of legislation. I also think it's doomed to failure - some people may remember the encryption software controversy in the early 90s, when PGP was declared 'illegal' the US government tried to prevent people from getting it. The solution to that was for lots of people to make the PGP source code/algorithm available online, and I feel people who object to this newish copyright law to do the same - just make sure that the necessary source code is spread so far and wide that trying to supress it is impossible. OK, 'nuff about that from me. Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

From: Mxyzptlk <jpklein@telocity.com>

quoted 2 lines I don't know how MANY copies you are allowed, but if you own the original

> I don't know how MANY copies you are allowed, but if you own the original > work, it IS legal to make at least A copy for personal use.

But you don't. The copyright holder does. You can download my mp3 tune freely, and can give it to as many people as you like (because I haven't said otherwise), but I still own the tune. So if you were to put it on CD and start selling it as your own (or even just to make profit off my name - some hope, ha ha), then I could drag you into court and sue you for every penny you made from it, plus whatever it costs to keep my lawyers in clean shirts. Technically speaking, DJs or nightclub owners should ask permission from the publisher to play any given record in public. Of course nobody is ever prosecuted for this, but the rule exists to stop promoters using copyrighted music in a stage or TV show without paying fees. Radio stations have to pay for every track they play. In sum, you only own a copy of the original work, and your right are restricted. Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

From: The soul that creates <themourn@yahoo.com>

quoted 3 lines listeners enjoy as well, the more money that makes its

> listeners enjoy as well, the more money that makes its > way to the artists can mean better releases, more > touring etc.

I rather feel that artists tour to make money, rather than the other way around, but I see your point, as the necessary capital to organise a tour may come out of record sales.

quoted 2 lines But when criminals like the bastard who ran Napster

> But when criminals like the bastard who ran Napster > come along...no thats not a revolution, thats theft.

I don't agree. He put up a file-sharing service, he didn't say 'come here and get all your copyrighted music for free'. This reminds me of the argument in the past that ISPs were pornographers, because they allowed the use of the Internet to download porn. Besides which, Napster was a free service. I was in a discussion about warez on another list recently and I'll say again what I said there: distributing copyrighted material for free is not theft in my view, it is illegal infringement on the distribution monopoly of the copyright holder. I know that makes me sound like a lawyer, but then 'theft' has a legal meaning as well, and it's not appropriate to describe what occurs. The only way forward with issues like these is to get the terms correct and discuss the issue in terms of what it actually is, rather than by faulty analogies (eg to the theft of a physical object). Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

----- Original Message ----- From: Anig Browl To: IDM List Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection (rant) From: Static Beats <static@staticbeats.com> > It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you can no longer listen to music before you buy it OR return opened music) means that I can decide whether or not I want the original... Um. Despite living in Nowheresville when it comes to music, my local record stores (including HMV) will allow me to listen to an album before I buy it (and I don't always make a purchase), and will also accept returns if they are in original condition and accompanied by a receipt. I can't think of ANY mainstream music store (Tower, Sam Goody, Camelot, Virgin etc.) that allows you to do either. All the above mentioned may provide a "listening station" with ten or so mainstream releases but only Virgin (in San Francisco) provides some Electronic Music (albeit still mainstream). All of them have signs posted at the counter that state returns for refund must be unopened and include original receipt. Opened items (if defective) may only be returned for the SAME item and must include original receipt. Lucky for you Anig, wherever you are. Out here in California it ain't so good..... Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul

quoted 1 line here in California it ain't so good.....

> here in California it ain't so good.....

I'm shocked that in San Fran the best places to buy IDM (or any other kind of decent electronic music) is only from one of a variety of different "McMusic" outlets. Up north in Seattle and Portland we have several independently owned music stores that allow you to listen to any cd before deciding to purchase. Furthermore the selection at these places is usually top notch, I wouldn't even consider going to Wherehouse, Tower, Sam Goody, etc to buy music. -Chris --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i havent been in san fran since november, but i know there are definitely shops there where you can listen before you buy, some specialist dj shops in the castro and lower haight and theres even a hidden gem of a 7" store (i'm not revealing the whereabouts of that) where you can hear anything. believe it or not some of the second hand stores (not sure about amoeba) will even play something for you if you think its gotta scratch onnit & yr not sure about forking over $30 for something. At 7:48 pm -0700 15/8/01, Chris West wrote:

quoted 5 lines here in California it ain't so good.....

> > here in California it ain't so good..... > >I'm shocked that in San Fran the best places to buy IDM (or any other kind >of decent electronic music) is only from one of a variety of different >"McMusic" outlets.

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Is that Rookys (haight/fillmore) or Jack's Record Cellar (Scott/Page)? Dont be hiding the sources now... bad ninja :) -i --- nethed <nethed@ninjatune.net> wrote:

quoted 20 lines i havent been in san fran since november, but i know there

> i havent been in san fran since november, but i know there > are definitely shops there where you can listen before you > buy, some specialist dj shops in the castro and lower haight > and theres even a hidden gem of a 7" store (i'm not revealing > the whereabouts of that) where you can hear anything. believe > it or not some of the second hand stores (not sure about amoeba) > will even play something for you if you think its gotta scratch > onnit & yr not sure about forking over $30 for something. > > At 7:48 pm -0700 15/8/01, Chris West wrote: > > > here in California it ain't so good..... > > > >I'm shocked that in San Fran the best places to buy IDM (or any other kind > >of decent electronic music) is only from one of a variety of different > >"McMusic" outlets. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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ok ok, busted. been to both. At 11:41 am -0700 16/8/01, i wrote:

quoted 6 lines Is that Rookys (haight/fillmore) or Jack's Record Cellar (Scott/Page)?

>Is that Rookys (haight/fillmore) or Jack's Record Cellar (Scott/Page)? > >Dont be hiding the sources now... bad ninja > >:) >-i

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I can't think of ANY mainstream music store (Tower, Sam Goody, Camelot, Virgin etc.) that allows you to do either. All the above mentioned may provide a "listening station" with ten or so mainstream releases but only Virgin (in San Francisco) provides some Electronic Music (albeit still mainstream). All of them have signs posted at the counter that state returns for refund must be unopened and include original receipt. Opened items (if defective) may only be returned for the SAME item and must include original receipt. Lucky for you Anig, wherever you are. Out here in California it ain't so good..... Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul From: Static Beats To: Anig Browl Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection (rant) ----- Original Message ----- From: Anig Browl To: IDM List Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection (rant) > It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you can no longer listen to music before you buy it OR return opened music) means that I can decide whether or not I want the original... Um. Despite living in Nowheresville when it comes to music, my local record stores (including HMV) will allow me to listen to an album before I buy it (and I don't always make a purchase), and will also accept returns if they are in original condition and accompanied by a receipt. =============================================

quoted 10 lines I definitely agree with this... I forget which Illuminati or powers that

> > >> > >I definitely agree with this... I forget which Illuminati or powers that >be are at the forefront of all this copyrighted CD nonsense, but it is >ridiculous that these same powers could also be indirectly behind >marketing the same Mp3 playing gadgets that would be rendered moot >by the former anyway. >

-- ...when people talk about 'pirates', we should remember that the music industry is the biggest pirate of all, and has been from the very beginning. Who created the possibility of duplicating and distributing music, if not the record industry itself? You will find the same thing happening at each stage of the technology's evolutionary development -- the record industry shoots itself in the foot. One arm is producing music and complaining that technology is making it easier to steal that music, while the other arm is producing the very technology that it claims to be damaging to its interests. This was true for cassettes, this was true for CDs, and it is true again for the Internet. Napster is of marginal importance here. Gnutella or Aimster were born within the industry. Both came out of AOL and they escaped like a virus that escapes a laboratory... - Jacques Attali, transcript of speech printed in the July issue of the Wire -- John -- John von Seggern DJ/producer Digital Cutup Lounge Hong Kong http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com

vis-you wrote:

quoted 11 lines if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so

>>if music is so goddamned expensive, yet musicians are so >>goddamned poor... then where the hell is all the money going? >> > >Well that's rhetorical. (the record companies) > >I know musicians who recorded their own CDs and built up a regular following >to sell to, who later signed in order to make it "big." They made less money >selling a hundred thousand cds through a label than when they just sold >500-1000 themselves to their fans. >

This has been true of a couple of my friends as well... John -- John von Seggern DJ/producer Digital Cutup Lounge Hong Kong http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com

On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Digital Cutup Lounge wrote:

quoted 7 lines vis-you wrote:

> vis-you wrote: > > >to sell to, who later signed in order to make it "big." They made less money > >selling a hundred thousand cds through a label than when they just sold > >500-1000 themselves to their fans. > > This has been true of a couple of my friends as well...

This may be true, but on the other hand 99,000 other people got to hear the record, which is one of the major incentives to go with a bigger label in the first place. Bigger label=bigger distribution. -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines This may be true, but on the other hand 99,000 other people got to hear

> This may be true, but on the other hand 99,000 other people got to hear > the record, which is one of the major incentives to go with a bigger label > in the first place. Bigger label=bigger distribution.

Good point. That is a definite benefit but it's still difficult for someone to go from supporting themselves with their music to not. I understand that it's still a decision a musician makes and it's no one's fault, really, but the musician for signing the contract to begin with. I think Jeff at Ninja said something to this effect, but it boils down to the sometimes unrealistic expectations we have that getting "signed" means instant fame, notoriety, and cash. It just doesn't. The ones that get that are few and far between. And what's left are masses of people disillusioned with the whole system. -matT nashville.tn --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

From: Static Beats <static@staticbeats.com>

quoted 1 line of them have signs posted at the counter that state returns for refund

> of them have signs posted at the counter that state returns for refund

must be unopened and include original receipt. Opened items (if defective) may only be returned for the SAME item and must include original receipt.

quoted 1 line Lucky for you Anig, wherever you are. Out here in California it ain't so

> Lucky for you Anig, wherever you are. Out here in California it ain't so

good..... Jeepers. I'm in western Ireland, and while the selection here is dreadful at least the service is still vaguely personal. On the other hand you do have a stack of good specialist record stores there in SF, which I miss :-) Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

No actually you can always go to Amoeba and get some IDM but you can't listen to it. There *are* good places to get good music out here but no one let's you listen anymore :-( Also, NONE of them provides refunds or returns (Amoeba gives 75% for non-sale items). Whatever though, I order ALL of my music online anyway. Many websites allow you to preview the tunes and for IDM there are always the mailing lists which offer descriptions of the releases. Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris West To: idm@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 7:48 PM Subject: RE: [idm] copy protection (rant) > here in California it ain't so good..... I'm shocked that in San Fran the best places to buy IDM (or any other kind of decent electronic music) is only from one of a variety of different "McMusic" outlets. Up north in Seattle and Portland we have several independently owned music stores that allow you to listen to any cd before deciding to purchase. Furthermore the selection at these places is usually top notch, I wouldn't even consider going to Wherehouse, Tower, Sam Goody, etc to buy music. -Chris --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Goddamn rock people can be stupid. I thought that rock people were human beings, and obviously some human beings are stupid, but not all of them... For sure C. Love is. philippe BiP-HOp Generation v. 3 [bleep 05] The series is truly a document of today's creative forms of Electronica. 14 exclusive songs, musically packed with almost 80 minutes, the composers are each given much longer amounts of time to showcase their talent. Even for those who think there should be a moratorium on Electronica compilations, this is worth checking out. NEOTROPIC (UK) / BOVINE LIFE (Scot) / PIMMON (Au) / ZONK'T (Fr) / ATAU TANAKA (Jp) / NOVEL 23 (Ru) http://www.bip-hop.com