IDM Mailing Archive

2001-01-11 23:56jon andersonI haven't followed this thread too well, so i don't know what the original point was. But

From:: jon anderson <pyrrhonist2@yahoo.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:56:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject:: [idm] "simply a moron?"

I haven't followed this thread too well, so i don't know what the original point was. But in the last few postings, it seems that laerm has made a valid point that has been missed. The point is, ironically, supported by analogies made by the detractors: dog turds ARE (or at least, some might feel are) a beautiful shade of olive-brown, and jumping out of a plane without a parachute CAN be thrilling - despite the bad consequences. Everyone seems to agree that jumping out of planes, dog turds, and fascism suck. Nobody said fascism was good. And the specific qualities laerm pointed out might unfortunately be bad examples. maybe a better example is this: fascism has inspired alot of people to NOT be fascist. That's a good thing isn't it? Or would it be better if we didn't learn from our mistakes? The general point is simply that all things, no matter how simplistic and bad they appear to be, are complexes of qualities, and not every single minute quality or long term effect of a thing will turn out to be a bad one. This argument says nothing about the value of fascism, or about the relative number of good vs bad qualities it might have. What people are attacking is in fact a strawman version of this argument. (e.g., the argument that fascism itself is "good" or in some way justified by some good effect it tends to have.) hopefully this issue was raised in connection with some idm related topic, otherwise sorry for continuing the totally irrelevant postings. j __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2001-01-12 13:19Konstantin MinkoI do agree with this post 100%. Thanx for stating my point of view on this anti-laerm thre

From:: Konstantin Minko <ibss@ukrpack.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>, jon anderson <pyrrhonist2@yahoo.com>
Date:: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:19:05 +0200
Subject:: RE: [idm] "simply a moron?"
Reply to:: [idm] "simply a moron?"

I do agree with this post 100%. Thanx for stating my point of view on this anti-laerm thread. facism is bad but every coin has two sides.... let's stop this thread. idm content: Isol "All the pretty things" proved to be absolutely not I had expected... I mean I like it nevertheless very much but I thought it to be like melody idm or something but it is some form of bass influenced noise ambient IMHO.

quoted 55 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: jon anderson [mailto:pyrrhonist2@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 1:57 AM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: [idm] "simply a moron?" > > > I haven't followed this thread too well, so i don't > know what the original point was. But in the last few > postings, it seems that laerm has made a valid point > that has been missed. > > The point is, ironically, supported by analogies made > by the detractors: dog turds ARE (or at least, some > might feel are) a beautiful shade of olive-brown, and > jumping out of a plane without a parachute CAN be > thrilling - despite the bad consequences. > > Everyone seems to agree that jumping out of planes, > dog turds, and fascism suck. Nobody said fascism was > good. And the specific qualities laerm pointed out > might unfortunately be bad examples. maybe a better > example is this: fascism has inspired alot of people > to NOT be fascist. That's a good thing isn't it? Or > would it be better if we didn't learn from our > mistakes? > > The general point is simply that all things, no matter > how simplistic and bad they appear to be, are > complexes of qualities, and not every single minute > quality or long term effect of a thing will turn out > to be a bad one. > > This argument says nothing about the value of fascism, > or about the relative number of good vs bad qualities > it might have. What people are attacking is in fact a > strawman version of this argument. (e.g., the argument > that fascism itself is "good" or in some way justified > by some good effect it tends to have.) > > hopefully this issue was raised in connection with > some idm related topic, otherwise sorry for continuing > the totally irrelevant postings. > > j > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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2001-01-12 17:28Chris Fahey> The general point is simply that all things, no matter > how simplistic and bad they app

From:: Chris Fahey <Chris.Fahey@raremedium.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:28:53 -0500
Subject:: RE: [idm] "simply a moron?"

quoted 5 lines The general point is simply that all things, no matter

> The general point is simply that all things, no matter > how simplistic and bad they appear to be, are > complexes of qualities, and not every single minute > quality or long term effect of a thing will turn out > to be a bad one.

It's pretty damn silly and actually quite a bit offensive to offer up a spontaneous defense of the existence of "good aspects of fascism" even if all you are really doing is pointing out the patently obvious fact that 'things are made of complexes of qualities'. If we're going to have a inane intellectual exercise about how, logically, bad things may have some good parts, then let's go so far as to question what "good" and "bad" mean: In my mind, anything begotten through fascism is by definition bad. Even punctual trains. To many people, punctual trains begotten through opression and torture are simply not the same (not even logically or functionally the same) as punctual trains begotten through education and freedom. So there is some disagreement as to what a "good" thing even is. So please tell your naive, academic, 'logical' hobgoblin to stop whispering this crap in your ear when your heart knows full well that fascism is bad and that, overall, the world would be better off without it ever having existed. Sure we can talk about how the Nazis were snappy dressers, but this fact alone do not even remotely translate into justifying any argument that are 'good aspects of Nazism'. Maybe small-minded logic suggests that there is some correlation, but the bottom line is that there are more useful ways to talk about this besides logic. Logic is not always the correct tool to use in political discussions, particularly when in the end you are trying to determine what's "good" and "bad". (to put this into Dungeons and Dragons terms, I give you an Intelligence of 17 and a Wisdom of around 8.) There is great controversy right now about whether or not contemporary scientists should draw on the medical data generated from the sadistic medical experiments performed in Nazi concentration camps. Logically, it may in fact make sense to do it. But politically and ethically this would be fucking awful in countless ways. Put your gigantic, razor-sharp, supercomputer-like brain in a jar for a minute and imagine yourself explaining the logical existence of 'good aspects of fascism' to a Holocaust survivor. - Cf --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org