IDM Mailing Archive

At 01:28 PM 10/19/00 CDT, you wrote:

quoted 10 lines calling all drum and bass shit is like calling all idm shit innit? it

>>calling all drum and bass shit is like calling all idm shit innit? it >>flaunts ignorance anyhow. . . > >yep. sure does. good thing i never said that. all i said was that >usually, self-proclaimed "drum 'n' bass" acts coming out today aren't good, >or are even shit in fact. and that's something that i believe. i really >haven't heard a debut d+b artist come out within the last year or so that's >been worth anything. that's all i said. i'll stand by that. putting words >into another's mouth flaunts ignorance anyhow. i'll give myself an amen on >that one.

fine, then. what drum and bass have you heard in the past year that you didn't like? it's a very general statement that you're making, and until you name some names i can't help but think that you aren't too clued. plus, i have a feeling that we might be talking about two separate things. you consistently refer to datach'i as dnb, yet i don't think that it's "proper" dnb at all. "proper" dnb is what you find in the dj's bags, and i haven't ever heard or seen datach'i or his ilk in a dj's bag. sad, maybe, but true. having said that, "proper" dnb is in a rather sad state, imho. not to mince words, it's a fucking fascist boring bunch of crap. the optical/fierce/ram sound has pretty much supplanted all else. it's not a bad sound, but when every producer trying to make music "for the dance" tries to emulate that sound everything gets old. again, this is all just one guy's opinion. there are guys doing other stuff, namely the guys i previously mentioned doing the tweaky deconstructed thing, and then guys like hospital and Intalex doing stuff on the more soulful side. again, i wouldn't hesitiate to call all of this dnb, but i balk at calling datach'i dnb. guy's like datach'i and vat are essentially making wild, bugged out shit with dnb overtones. not dnb. perhaps the difference is subtle, but it isn't really to me. i certainly appreciate what they're doing, but calling it drum and bass is like calling The Who an r&b band, or calling Green Day a punk band. sure, the influence is there, but they ain't r&b and they ain't punk. i really hope this doesn't spurn a response like "why categorize? it's all music, right?" i know this. but i'm fascinated with formalist thinking in electronic music. i think that genre has a VERY important role in pop music (and boy, i can already feel the flames from using THAT word). -jeff ------------ 1642 try 621 ------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

jeff wrote:

quoted 5 lines plus, i have a feeling that we might be talking about two separate things.

>plus, i have a feeling that we might be talking about two separate things. >you consistently refer to datach'i as dnb, yet i don't think that it's >"proper" dnb at all. "proper" dnb is what you find in the dj's bags, and i >haven't ever heard or seen datach'i or his ilk in a dj's bag. sad, maybe, >but true.

i've just clipped a bit of the argument for reference's sake, but jeff, i agree with you whole heartedly - it's something that was discussed on the list a couple of years ago, and i made a point very similar to yours. "proper d'n'b" - which i do believe is a useful categorization - is a largely *internally* drawn scene, making music according to its own rules, traditions & conventions. which is a totally valid ethic, if you ask me. but regardless of your opinion of such a genre, it's vastly different from artists making d'n'b-influenced music for *other* scenes (and here i would include jenkinson, who made jungle-derived music for a different audience and a different purpose). it's a dichotomy that i think has never been very clearly spelled out on this list... Philip Sherburne Executive Managing Editor, Technology Ask Jeeves 510-985-7885 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines What are you talking about ? _All_ the artists mentioned above put out

>What are you talking about ? _All_ the artists mentioned above put out >non-drum'n'bass records before adopting d'n'b influences. Get your >facts together before you open your mouth. Bitch bitch bitch, piss >piss piss.

actually, you're right. i think jenkinson was always somewhat d+b though, wasn't he? anyhow, i don't really feel bad about getting that wrong, cuz i think it's safe to say that mu-ziq and vibert didn't get good attention until they began incorporating d+b into their stuff. that was the case where live anyway.

quoted 2 lines If meeting Vibert & Jenkinson didn't reinvigorate his [james'] music

>If meeting Vibert & Jenkinson didn't reinvigorate his [james'] music >and propel him to a new level I don't know what did.

i don't know either. new levels aren't always good levels.

quoted 1 line And Autechre hasn't made a good record since "Amber", right ? : d

>And Autechre hasn't made a good record since "Amber", right ? : d

i think _tri_repetae_ is the best electronic album ever recorded. _amber_ is dandy too :) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Armchair Charlie wrote:

quoted 2 lines actually, you're right. i think jenkinson was always somewhat d+b though, wasn't

> actually, you're right. i think jenkinson was always somewhat d+b though, wasn't > he ?

Nope, he released a couple of acid records before the Squarepusher stuff.

quoted 4 lines anyhow, i don't really feel bad about getting that wrong, cuz i

> anyhow, i don't really feel bad about getting that wrong, cuz i > think it's safe to say that mu-ziq and vibert didn't get good attention > until they began incorporating d+b into their stuff. that was the case where live > anyway.

Yeah, why don't you try to twist the arguement even more ?

quoted 4 lines If meeting Vibert & Jenkinson didn't reinvigorate his [james'] music

> >If meeting Vibert & Jenkinson didn't reinvigorate his [james'] music > >and propel him to a new level I don't know what did. > > i don't know either. new levels aren't always good levels.

Whatever that means...

quoted 4 lines And Autechre hasn't made a good record since "Amber", right ? : d

> >And Autechre hasn't made a good record since "Amber", right ? : d > > i think _tri_repetae_ is the best electronic album ever recorded. _amber_ > is dandy too :)

Hope you detected the sarcasm in my statement about Amber. What exactly is Tri-Repetae "best" at ? Andrei --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 8 lines And Autechre hasn't made a good record since "Amber", right ? : d

> > > >And Autechre hasn't made a good record since "Amber", right ? : d > > > > i think _tri_repetae_ is the best electronic album ever recorded. _amber_ > > is dandy too :) > >Hope you detected the sarcasm in my statement about Amber. >What exactly is Tri-Repetae "best" at ?

Tri Repetae is some of the best "IDM" from the pre-"chiastic slide" days. it's also the best marker for determining when autechre changed from "ambient" to "good" cheers, /derek - - - - - - "Extremism is no vice when God's on your side" -Opus the Penguin/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

alright. you're an idiot. if i have to sit through yet another wholly imbecilic discussion as to the purported merits of 95 drum n' bass i think i'll be sick all over everybody on this list. this is not 1998, and optical is not running drum n' bass. you totally ignore the movements toward tech-house fusion (intalex & st files) and old-school revisionism (total science, digital & spirit). not to mention the two releases on teebee's label [subtitles] both of which have been simply blazing as well as technically, sonically, and structurally innovative. so please for the love of god shut up. i wouldn't characterize IDM by talking about early aphex twin. don't talk about dnb by slagging artists that no longer exert a primary influence upon the scene. - jordan Armchair Charlie wrote:

quoted 30 lines What are you talking about ? _All_ the artists mentioned above put out

> > >What are you talking about ? _All_ the artists mentioned above put out > >non-drum'n'bass records before adopting d'n'b influences. Get your > >facts together before you open your mouth. Bitch bitch bitch, piss > >piss piss. > > actually, you're right. i think jenkinson was always somewhat d+b though, > wasn't he? anyhow, i don't really feel bad about getting that wrong, cuz i > think it's safe to say that mu-ziq and vibert didn't get good attention > until they began incorporating d+b into their stuff. that was the case > where live anyway. > > >If meeting Vibert & Jenkinson didn't reinvigorate his [james'] music > >and propel him to a new level I don't know what did. > > i don't know either. new levels aren't always good levels. > > >And Autechre hasn't made a good record since "Amber", right ? : d > > i think _tri_repetae_ is the best electronic album ever recorded. _amber_ > is dandy too :) > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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quoted 1 line alright. you're an idiot.

>alright. you're an idiot.

quoted 3 lines if i have to sit through yet another wholly imbecilic discussion as to

>if i have to sit through yet another wholly imbecilic discussion as to >the purported merits of 95 drum n' bass i think i'll be sick all over >everybody on this list.

oh kiss my ass. i never started this discussion to learn anything new about the intricate complexities of the drum 'n' bass genre. i'm really not interested in all that. i just so happened to have an opinion on drum 'n' bass and how it has affected other genres of electronic music, and it just so happens to be a generally negative opinion. true, i may not be a d+b expert like yourself, the don of d+b, but i know enough to have a basic dislike for it. so fuck off.

quoted 6 lines this is not 1998, and optical is not running drum n' bass. you totally

>this is not 1998, and optical is not running drum n' bass. you totally >ignore the movements toward tech-house fusion (intalex & st files) and >old-school revisionism (total science, digital & spirit). not to >mention the two releases on teebee's label [subtitles] both of which >have been simply blazing as well as technically, sonically, and >structurally innovative.

maybe i didn't talk about any of the artists and movements you've mentioned above, but i am aware of them. and i don't care for them. in fact, i'd say they add to my initial argument. don't make me out to be some kind of d+b dunce when i'm in fact not. will simmons Cipolin Structure Radio http://www.geocities.com/cipolinstructure/ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines fine, then. what drum and bass have you heard in the past year that

>fine, then. what drum and bass have you heard in the past year that >you didn't like? it's a very general statement that you're making, >and until you name some names i can't help but think that you aren't >too clued.

be happy to name some names. _field_of_action_ by foul play productions is probably one of the most generic d+b records i've ever heard; new artist. the _metro_breaks_99:_deeper_drum_&_bass_from_darkest_toronto_ and _sonar_1.0_ compilations are both pretty stale, although i do generally like the labels the albums are on. "aparatus" (single) by tom b & kojak is boring. i think these releases would be much more bearable if they had come out years back.

quoted 4 lines you consistently refer to datach'i as dnb, yet i don't think that

>you consistently refer to datach'i as dnb, yet i don't think that >it's "proper" dnb at all. "proper" dnb is what you find in the dj's >bags, and i haven't ever heard or seen datach'i or his ilk in a dj's >bag. sad, maybe, but true.

oh yeah, i totally agree with you on this one. i don't think of datach'i as proper d+b at all. he has a lot more background than foul play productions or whoever. it's this proper d+b you speak of that i don't believe there's much hope left for.

quoted 2 lines having said that, "proper" dnb is in a rather sad state, imho. not to

>having said that, "proper" dnb is in a rather sad state, imho. not to >mince words, it's a fucking fascist boring bunch of crap.

this is more or less what i've been trying to spit out the whole time. so thank you for agreeing with me, finally. although, i gave a similar line in the first post and was considered to be flaunting ignorance.

quoted 5 lines there are guys doing other stuff, namely the guys i previously

>there are guys doing other stuff, namely the guys i previously >mentioned doing the tweaky deconstructed thing, and then guys like >hospital and Intalex doing stuff on the more soulful side. again, i >wouldn't hesitiate to call all of this dnb, but i balk at calling >datach'i dnb.

well, like i said before, i wouldn't go as far as to call datach'i's music traditional, "proper" d+b. but i would call it deconstructionism, or "drill 'n' bass," not that i'm too fond with spin off genre titles (trip-hop). i'd say that drill 'n' bass could easily be considered a sub genre of d+b. so i guess i don't feel too bad about casually referring to datach'i as d+b. but i see your point, he brings a whole lot more to the table than what one would think of as just straight up d+b. this post could act as a response to Philip Sherburne's earlier post too. so yeah guys, just to confirm, i do recognize the differences between "drum 'n' bass" and "drill 'n' bass." will simmons Cipolin Structure Radio http://www.geocities.com/cipolinstructure/ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines be happy to name some names. _field_of_action_ by foul play

> > be happy to name some names. _field_of_action_ by foul play > productions is > probably one of the most generic d+b records i've ever heard; > new artist.

Erm... Big oops. here's a Foul Play bio from http://www.truelove.co.uk/labels/partisan/foulplay.htm Suffice to say they are by no means a 'new artist' CheersAndrewC. FOUL PLAY PRODUCTIONS A name of distinction dating back to the early days of rave and hardcore, Foul Play now add "Productions" to their title as a mark of respect to founder member Steve "Brad" Bradshaw, who died tragically young last August. The change marks the new material written by John Morrow and fellow Northamptonite Neil Shepherd from the earlier classics. Neil did in fact play guitar on Brad and John's "Suspected" LP for Moving Shadow (1995), so had a good understanding of the situation and the history involved. The illustrious heritage began in 1992 when, as a trio with Steve Gurley (who now works as Rogue Unit on Labello Blanco and produces for Dr. S. Gachet, making quality House), they released "Foul Play Vol. 1 and 2" on their own Oblivion label. Championed by Randall in particular and Fabio also, these 12's happily bore the telephone number of John's Grandma, whereby our own Simon Colebrooke (then A&R Director at Moving Shadow) found them out. Fed up with the usual boring distribution nightmares, they happily accepted the offer of relinquishing all the admin. Thus, in 1993, "Finest Illusion / Screwface" came out on Moving Shadow's affiliate label Section 5, before a long line of releases on Shadow proper: Foul Play Vol. 3 "Open Your Mind", Vol. 4 "Being With You / Music Is The Key" (the last input from Gurley), "Total Control / The Stepper" ('95), "Vice / Karma" ('96). Accompanying their own catalogue is a glittering array of remixes - "Lords of The Null Lines", Hyper-on Experience ('93 and again in '94 with DJ Randall); "Made in 2 Minutes", Bug Kann, for PWL ('94); "Feel Better", "Rollin' Heights" and "Renegade Snares" Omni Trio (the latter selected by MixMag last year as one of the most important Drum & Bass tracks of ALL TIME); 4 Horsemen material and remixes for Darren Jay's Tone Def label; "Believe", E-Z Rollers; "Stay Calm", DJ Pulse; "The Sound of Music", Nookie - for Reinforced ('95); "Warriors Drum", King Just - for Ruffness; "Heal the Separation", The Shamen - for One Little Indian; "Flowers Bloom", Mandalay ('96) - for V2; "Sing Time", Ray Keith ('97) - Dread Records. As well as contributing an exclusive track to a Sony Records LP "Cuttin' Edge", John and Steve did have another shot at running a label, Panik, and released tracks on that over '96-7 before Brad's illness made it increasingly difficult. In conclusion, the name Foul Play commands respect from anyone with so much as a passing interest in the development of UK breakbeat. John and Neil draw influences from many styles of music and film and are working on an album with contributions from vocalist Shereen and bass player Steve Musgrove (who plays double bass on "Golden Gate" Part007). --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

dearest charles.

quoted 7 lines oh kiss my ass. i never started this discussion to learn anything new about

> oh kiss my ass. i never started this discussion to learn anything new about > the intricate complexities of the drum 'n' bass genre. i'm really not > interested in all that. i just so happened to have an opinion on drum 'n' > bass and how it has affected other genres of electronic music, and it just > so happens to be a generally negative opinion. true, i may not be a d+b > expert like yourself, the don of d+b, but i know enough to have a basic > dislike for it. so fuck off.

ok. i thank the good lord daily that it's not my job to educate fools like yourself about drum n' bass. it's my job to get idiotic mail out of my inbox. i'm no don of dnb, but i don't exert my uninformed opinions upon the public. that's like farting in someone's mouth. you don't hear me commenting on the relative influences upon idm development, because i don't know about them and i don't care to know about them. i tire of snob assholes like yourself judging and compartmentalizing a music on ridiculously subjective criteria. when you post opinions on a list you are going to offend people if you demean a music.

quoted 4 lines maybe i didn't talk about any of the artists and movements you've mentioned

> maybe i didn't talk about any of the artists and movements you've mentioned > above, but i am aware of them. and i don't care for them. in fact, i'd say > they add to my initial argument. don't make me out to be some kind of d+b > dunce when i'm in fact not.

ok. prove me wrong. if you're so confident in your opinion then use my examples to prove your point. but it's my estimation that you can't back up what you said, that your lack of knowledge added to your general dislike of drum n' bass resulting in a tart and insecure rant. you post an opinion which you believe necessitates public commentary: this is a mailing list. if you can't handle the fire, get your hand out of the flame. you aren't simon reynolds, whose opinions i find banal but well-founded. you made generalizations and you got burned - that's the moral of the story. so, like i said before, shut up. - jordan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org