IDM Mailing Archive

Just a note on the previous question of what kit all the musicians on the list use. Is no-one using hardware anymore? I appreciate all the wonders that software can provide, but surely there's nothing better than knob twisting ;-) My Akai is the most important thing in my musical world, please tell me I'm not alone and out of date! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

dude. hardware? hell yeah. software? sure enough. just a few of the tools we currently posess in our arsenal :) Akai MPC2000, Akai MPC3000, 2xTechnics 1200, Emu ESI4000, Roland Juno 60, Nord Modular, Roland JP8000, Alesis Wedge, Alesis Quadraverb GT, Alesis Midiverb, Big Briar Moogerfooger LPF, Waldorf 4-pole, Rhodes Mark II Electric Piano, Ernie Ball Music Man Fretless Bass, Fender Acoustic Guitar, Hohner Melodica, Moog Rogue, Akai S01 josh -- String Theory : Digital Music for Humans http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 hardbarker@hotmail.com wrote:

quoted 15 lines Just a note on the previous question of what kit all the musicians on the

> Just a note on the previous question of what kit all the musicians on the > list use. > > Is no-one using hardware anymore? I appreciate all the wonders that software > can provide, but surely there's nothing better than knob twisting ;-) > > My Akai is the most important thing in my musical world, please tell me I'm > not alone and out of date! > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 1 line Is no-one using hardware anymore? I appreciate all the wonders that

>Is no-one using hardware anymore? I appreciate all the wonders that

software

quoted 1 line can provide, but surely there's nothing better than knob twisting ;-)

>can provide, but surely there's nothing better than knob twisting ;-)

i have a yamaha cs1x for midi control and simple analog synthesis, and i also have an electribe (a very fun box). i've often contemplated a hardware sampler, but they're pretty much useless unless you rely on doing things live. of course, i use a PC, so i have a lot more options for recording and music creation/sound modification than macs, so i don't really have much use for hardware (plus, software is significantly cheaper than hardware (especially when you can get a large chunk of it for free before you plop down the bucks for it)). but yeh, hardware is much more fun to play :) cheers, -derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 10 lines Just a note on the previous question of what kit all the musicians on >the

>Just a note on the previous question of what kit all the musicians on >the >list use. > >Is no-one using hardware anymore? I appreciate all the wonders that > >software can provide, but surely there's nothing better than knob > >twisting ;-) > >My Akai is the most important thing in my musical world, please tell >me >I'm not alone and out of date! >

I personally love working with real gear, there is something about it that's gratifying, i'd die without my MS-20, it just makes me happy. And on a side note i picked up a Kaoss pad not so long ago, and find this to be a lot of fun as well. I like using a computer, but i don't think i'll ever be able to do it 100%. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

<<i use a PC, so i have a lot more options for recording and music creation/sound modification than macs>> HAHAHAHAHHAHA. 'Nuff said. Jared --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines <<i use a PC, so i have a lot more options for recording and music

><<i use a PC, so i have a lot more options for recording and music >creation/sound modification than macs>> > >HAHAHAHAHHAHA.

i can see that i'm up against a niche market who dismisses before discussion. :) cheers, -derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 8/14/00 7:06:12 PM, youn0394@umn.edu writes: << but they're pretty much useless unless you rely on doing things live. >> man, there is nothing cooler than live performances with electronics i use an rm1x, the best sequencer ever created. if used with reaktor, you have live everything. and the rm1x can control reaktors knobs live. if you aren't boring and play live, you should really check out the architecture of the rm1x's sequencer -matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 9 lines In a message dated 8/14/00 7:06:12 PM, youn0394@umn.edu writes:

>In a message dated 8/14/00 7:06:12 PM, youn0394@umn.edu writes: > ><< but they're pretty much useless unless you rely on doing things > >live. >> > >man, there is nothing cooler than live performances with electronics >i use an rm1x, the best sequencer ever created. if used with reaktor, you >have live everything. and the rm1x can control reaktors knobs live. if

you

quoted 1 line aren't boring and play live, you should really check out the architecture

>aren't boring and play live, you should really check out the architecture

of

quoted 2 lines the rm1x's sequencer

>the rm1x's sequencer >-matt

hmm i wonder if you're saying that one is boring if one doesn't play live :) i agree that playing live with electronics is a lot of fun, although i'm sure it has a lot to do with the fact that *you're* the one playing, instead of watching someone. it came up on another list that most electronic shows are pretty boring to watch, esp. the laptop jockeys. granted, it's hard to jump around on stage with a sampler attached to your hip (heh heh). actually, i have a friend who's interested in playing live, and using electronics, but more in the "use electronic hardware to set up loops and play real instruments while they're doing" vein, which would probably make the show a bit challenging and audience-engaging. is the rm1x simple to sequence, or is the usage alongside reaktor a hint at it's obtuseness? cheers, -derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 8/15/00 2:18:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, youn0394@umn.edu writes: << i'm glad you're taking this lightheartedly :) i honestly don't take the comparison too seriously, since i do realize that it ultimately comes down to personal opinion. i appreciate that we're both on the same level. >> Yeah, I hear zealots on both sides all the time, and it gets tiresome. <<well, i wouldn't say "ignorance">> I didn't mean this as an insult, merely meaning it as a lack of experience and knowledge in the macintosh area, which I'm sure you'll agree is somewhat of a fair statement.. <<but more based on a) my first glance at both platforms, and b) the fact that i use an old pc for all my stuff. and you have probably significantly more experience than me using, well, at least macs. i don't do stuff that qualifies as "pro" on the pc, so i don't use things like cubase/logic/etc, because i don't "play" anything that i record realtime (i'm just not that good yet ;) )>> Well, my experience is as follows on the mac.. Starting 4 years ago, I started using mac-based trackers, and an audio editing program called "Soundmaker". From extensive use of SoundForge, I can say they are fairly comparable, but with both having their own weaknesses and strengths. Some of the effects are better on soundmaker and some are better in soundforge.. I prefer the interface of soundmaker however, it's a little more smooth. I've since graduated to using Studiovision Pro (not anymore though), some of Cubase VST/24, Metasynth, Reaktor, Koblo Studio 9000, and a wonderful little shareware program called SoundSculptor II which is my prized possession. Oh, and I make use of Peak as well, due mainly to its various plugins, and because I can use it to send samples via SCSI to my kurzweil K2000r, Retro AS-1, and Unity DS-1. On the PC.. I make HEAVY use of Acid Pro and soundforge. I also use Wavelab, Reaktor (i prefer the mac version), Fruityloops Pro, Cubase VST, Logic Audio, various softsynth programs including the Bitheadz software (retro/unity)..... If I had my choice, I would own a PC *JUST* for Acid Pro... Every day I learn something new in that program, and it's power amazes me. However... I'm very interested in the new Bitheadz software which is supposedly a lot like Acid Pro. We shall see... So far when working at home, I have to timestrech samples on my own to the correct sample, and I have to use tempo calculating programs to figure out *JUST* how many samples per measure a sample needs to be... Like I think (off the top of my head) it's 77596 samples per 1 measure loop at 140 bpm... i may be a bit off, I'm not sure (i'm on a pc right now, hehe). <<it's too bad that a lot of the differences between the two rotates around the OS. i'm very familiar in a windows interface, i'm used to occasional crashes, and my main software has this funky autosave thing so that if it crashes it remembers everything, even the part i was highlighting when it crashed (it's happened once or twice).>> Yeah, well.. That is one of the major differences between the two systems. The complications I have to deal with everyday on the PC mostly go away when I return home to my mac... My mac crashes... Maybe 2 times a week.. The PC i work on crashes everday. Oh, btw.. The PC I use at work is a 750 PIII w/128 mb ram... My mac is a desktop 266 g3 w/160 mb ram. I'm running OS9 on the mac, and Win98 on the PC.. However, I plan on switching to NT in the near future. <<<ah, noted. yes, one of the reasons i personally find the pc stuff better is the software choices.>> A huge misconpection, honestly... That was a very valid complaint for the macintosh several years ago.. However, nowadays, several of my favorite software programs are Macintosh only.. PC versions are being worked on, but not out yet, and they're a year or two late in coming. The only PC application that I'm really worried about using that I can't use on my mac right now is Acid Pro.. Once again that's being solved hopefully. <<plus my computer is a p166, so i can't use anything too cpu-gobbly anyways.>> Hehe.. I can emulate anything you can run on your p166 on my macintosh. <<i'm sure the plugins for both systems are available in a similar format, so you can use things like pi warp and the hyperprism things, and other plugs (if you choose to). >> Most are.. There are some differences here... Like I'm not sure if there is an Orange Vocoder plug in for VST for the macintosh.. But I don't use VST all that much, really. <<i'll agree that ProTools is much better on the mac, although protools otherwise works on NT which is even more stable than the mac OS's >> Whoa! Gotta disagree with you here on the NT subject! And so does my PC tech buddy sitting next to me! And Protools crashes a lot on NT, too. And lets not even talk about Win2000.... <<partially because it doesn't try opening up a ton of other things, memory re-allocation, and crap like that>> To tell the truth, I love being able to manually allocate my memory to my audio apps... I run 3 different Koblo synths/software samplers, Soundmaker (think soundforge), and SoundSculptor II (which is usually holding at least 60 mb of audio data), and AOL... And it runs fine on my 266 g3! <<most people agree that the mac OS isn't very good for multitasking,>> Hehe, wait until the next OS comes out.. <<this is cool :) although i generally use Acid for beatmatching samples>> My friend.. It does so much more than that. <> Which you can emulate on my 266 g3 which isn't really considered "fast" anymore. <<but from my standpoint there's no way i'd be able to make any music on a mac, because i have no money :>> Disregarding the cost of my Mac (1500$)... The cost of the programs I do all my songs on the mac cost.... SoundsSculptor II-30$, Soundmaker-40$, and Vibra9000-75$. Not too bad if you ask me! <> What do you mean by step sequencer? Like a roland X0X interface? Rebirth 2.0 can do that with drum samples. And Gamma 9000 by koblo can do the same thing. If you mean sequencers in general... Cubase, Logic Audio, Studiovision..... <<numerous free trackers>> Free trackers on Mac my friend! That's where I started out! There's also an amazing program called... Damn.. What was the name again? Oh well, I'll look it out.. But it's like 50$. Amazing tracker program that crosses over into MIDI. I believe it's available for PC as well! Ah PlayerPro!!!! That's it! Great program. <<so, is there a huge variety of software out there for macs>> Oh yeah. And with new bond between microsoft and Apple (every microsoft program is going to be released for macintosh now), other companies are beginning to follow suit. Check out the video game industry.. Blizzards next games are going to be simultaneous mac/pc hybrid releases... As far as high-end audio editing goes.. Most people go mac.. Especially with the Dual Processor G4's out now. Most professionals top-system would be a G4 with ProTools... But, there's so many different ways to do different things! It's all what you put in.. I personally love using the PC at work... But there's a certain affinity I have for my macintosh... Thanks for a nice discussion, and I hope I've been able to provide some insight! Jared --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Loptimiste@aol.com wrote:

quoted 4 lines <<most people agree that the mac OS isn't

> <<most people agree that the mac OS isn't > very good for multitasking,>> > > Hehe, wait until the next OS comes out..

sorry for this - i should probably send this to idm-making instead, but anyway... will the next macos really be that good for music apps? i mean, real multitasking often means no good timing. isn't it the non-multitasking system of the mac that makes it so good for timing sensitive applications? henrik ......... be yourself (and no-one else). email henrik@billieraymartin.com personal homepage http://hem2.passagen.se/ethree .......................................................................................... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 15/08/2000 05:20, Henrik Lundstrom said in living color:

quoted 13 lines Loptimiste@aol.com wrote:

> Loptimiste@aol.com wrote: > >> <<most people agree that the mac OS isn't >> very good for multitasking,>> >> >> Hehe, wait until the next OS comes out.. > > sorry for this - i should probably send this to idm-making instead, but > anyway... > > will the next macos really be that good for music apps? i mean, real > multitasking often means no good timing. isn't it the non-multitasking > system of the mac that makes it so good for timing sensitive applications?

There are ways to prioritize tasks and ensure good timing on a OS with preemptive multitasking. Actually, Apple incorporated some real-time features in the Mach kernel that is used in Mac OS X. And for Mac OS X, Apple hired the folks who did OMS to write a completely new MIDI system. Several improvements are expected to be coming for audio on Mac OS X. There is a lot of secrecy around it, though... g. -- Guillaume Grenier - gollum@videotron.ca in space there is no north in space there is no south in space there is no east in space there is no west --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

you wrote: ***From: <hardbarker@hotmail.com> ***Is no-one using hardware anymore? I appreciate all the wonders that software ***can provide, but surely there's nothing better than knob twisting ;-) ***My Akai is the most important thing in my musical world, please tell me I'm ***not alone and out of date! you are not alone, and you ain't out of date either. see http://www.tinet.ch/table/table/pool.html just forget about all the promo businessy stuff at the top of the page :-) and we (still? i prefer 'always') work with midi, he he we use both methods: it's the best. see ya nd - table --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

-----Original Message----- From: hardbarker@hotmail.com [mailto:hardbarker@hotmail.com] Sent: 15 August 2000 02:47 To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: [idm] My Instrument

quoted 1 line Is no-one using hardware anymore?

>>Is no-one using hardware anymore?

Akai S6000, Nord Modular & Micro Modular, Sid Station, Matrix 1000, Korg Wavestation (until the one patch I like gets sampled). Processing includes, TLA C1 Compressor, TCE M3000 & FireworX, Ensoniq DP4. All controlled with Cubase 32v5 on a PC and Wavelab. This just about defines my sound. I have soft synths including Reaktor - most of it gives me a headache! PC's have a tough time just coping with sequencing. However, my worst headache by far was trying to use a hardware sequencer.... I am an old fart though ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 11 lines <<most people agree that the mac OS isn't

>>> <<most people agree that the mac OS isn't >>> very good for multitasking,>> >>> >>> Hehe, wait until the next OS comes out.. >> >> sorry for this - i should probably send this to idm-making instead, but >> anyway... >> >> will the next macos really be that good for music apps? i mean, real >> multitasking often means no good timing. isn't it the non-multitasking >> system of the mac that makes it so good for timing sensitive

applications?

quoted 10 lines There are ways to prioritize tasks and ensure good timing on a OS with

> >There are ways to prioritize tasks and ensure good timing on a OS with >preemptive multitasking. Actually, Apple incorporated some real-time >features in the Mach kernel that is used in Mac OS X. > >And for Mac OS X, Apple hired the folks who did OMS to write a completely >new MIDI system. > >Several improvements are expected to be coming for audio on Mac OS X. There >is a lot of secrecy around it, though...

I've used a copy that the mac-tech at my place of work got about a month ago, and i'm sort of hoping that it's not the final copy (i would assume it's more of a beta, but anyways). from what i saw, it's a very "flashy" OS. it actually took me a couple minutes to figure out how to navigate in it, and i'm familiar with using the previous MacOS's. I think one of the draws to the mac OS is its simplicity to get started, and from my impressions on what *i* saw of OS X, i sincerely hope they didn't sacrifice that. anywho, i've heard from various sources that it was likely the server version or a beta, but i hope they fix that "bubble" at the bottom of the screen. cheers, -derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i just hope you can finally use a command line interface on the macOS with X... i know X Server will run bash or csh or any other unix shell cuz it's based on BSD, but how much access to the *nix layers does OS X "consumer" allow? it would be soooo sweet to be able to have only one OS on my mac for once. ( i use MacOS for MIDI/Audio/Graphics and LinuxPPC for programming ) I dream of a world where GNU Emacs, Pro Tools and Illustrator can all live in harmony with shared memory, a crash-proof microkernel, and true multitasking. *sigh* josh -- String Theory : Digital Music for Humans http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, EggyToast wrote:

quoted 45 lines <<most people agree that the mac OS isn't

> >>> <<most people agree that the mac OS isn't > >>> very good for multitasking,>> > >>> > >>> Hehe, wait until the next OS comes out.. > >> > >> sorry for this - i should probably send this to idm-making instead, but > >> anyway... > >> > >> will the next macos really be that good for music apps? i mean, real > >> multitasking often means no good timing. isn't it the non-multitasking > >> system of the mac that makes it so good for timing sensitive > applications? > > > >There are ways to prioritize tasks and ensure good timing on a OS with > >preemptive multitasking. Actually, Apple incorporated some real-time > >features in the Mach kernel that is used in Mac OS X. > > > >And for Mac OS X, Apple hired the folks who did OMS to write a completely > >new MIDI system. > > > >Several improvements are expected to be coming for audio on Mac OS X. There > >is a lot of secrecy around it, though... > > I've used a copy that the mac-tech at my place of work got about a month > ago, and i'm sort of hoping that it's not the final copy (i would assume > it's more of a beta, but anyways). from what i saw, it's a very "flashy" > OS. it actually took me a couple minutes to figure out how to navigate in > it, and i'm familiar with using the previous MacOS's. I think one of the > draws to the mac OS is its simplicity to get started, and from my > impressions on what *i* saw of OS X, i sincerely hope they didn't sacrifice > that. > > anywho, i've heard from various sources that it was likely the server > version or a beta, but i hope they fix that "bubble" at the bottom of the > screen. > > cheers, > -derek > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 3 lines of course, i use a PC, so i have a lot more options for recording and music

>of course, i use a PC, so i have a lot more options for recording and music >creation/sound modification than macs, so i don't really have much use for >hardware

what planet are you from? Did your mother put crack in your cereal this morning? In what parallel universe does the PC exceed the Mac in Music? you should look into the Mac platform. It would do you a world of good, no shit. If you're serious about tracks, hmm...think about it. peace, and good luck, joshua \telefon tel aviv \benelli design labs ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

There is no point in arguing about what platform is better... if 'Paupa New Guinea' could be done on a 1040 (or whatever), then argueing about what platform is ridiculous... what more proof do you need that music is human creativity, not electronic equiptment? (Or even further, how about Cage, or Reich or stuff?) I'm not going to bother saying what platform I use, but I seem to be able to write the odd decent track... any complaints I have a regarding my skill, not the gear... (well mostly ;) ) d.kearley@home.com www.mp3.com/kearley Great Electronic Music from Kearley!

quoted 7 lines what planet are you from? Did your mother put crack in your cereal this

> what planet are you from? Did your mother put crack in your cereal this > morning? In what parallel universe does the PC exceed the Mac in Music? > > you should look into the Mac platform. It would do you a world of good, > no > > shit. If you're serious about tracks, hmm...think about it. > >

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well said...people forget about all the atari users out there making killer tracks...and of course people using amigas or hardware sequencers...it's not the gear it's what you do with it....this platform argument is just ridiculous...it's like worrying about what sneakers you had when you were in grade school...who cares. steve ----------

quoted 5 lines From: "Daniel Kearley" <d.kearley@home.com>

>From: "Daniel Kearley" <d.kearley@home.com> >To: "IDM List" <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: [idm] Fw: [idm] My Instrument >Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000, 11:29 AM >

quoted 31 lines There is no point in arguing about what platform is better... if 'Paupa New

> There is no point in arguing about what platform is better... if 'Paupa New > Guinea' could be done on a 1040 (or whatever), then argueing about what > platform is ridiculous... what more proof do you need that music is human > creativity, not electronic equiptment? (Or even further, how about Cage, or > Reich or stuff?) > > I'm not going to bother saying what platform I use, but I seem to be able > to > write the odd decent track... any complaints I have a regarding my skill, > not the gear... (well mostly ;) ) > > > d.kearley@home.com > www.mp3.com/kearley > Great Electronic Music from Kearley! > >> what planet are you from? Did your mother put crack in your cereal this >> morning? In what parallel universe does the PC exceed the Mac in Music? >> >> you should look into the Mac platform. It would do you a world of good, >> no >> > shit. If you're serious about tracks, hmm...think about it. >> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 2 lines well said...people forget about all the atari users out there making killer

>well said...people forget about all the atari users out there making killer >tracks...and of course people using amigas or hardware sequencers...it's

not

quoted 2 lines the gear it's what you do with it....this platform argument is just

>the gear it's what you do with it....this platform argument is just >ridiculous...it's like worrying about what sneakers you had when you were

in

quoted 1 line grade school...who cares.

>grade school...who cares.

dood, it's all about the spats. besides the operating systems, any musical equipment deals with what you do with it. some people have tritons and can't do anything interesting, and some people have electribes and do amazing things. if someone's making music on a specific computer operating system, then they're obviously going to learn and be proficient within that operating system and the software within it. heck, i have a hard time figuring out the mac photoshop, when i use the windows photoshop rather effectively. mac people will complain about crashes, windows people (well, non-mac people) will complain about 1 button mice. it's always something. cheers,, -derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

In a message dated 8/20/00 3:32:08 AM, youn0394@umn.edu writes: << will complain about 1 button mice. it's always something. >> one button mice come standard.. but you can get a macintosh equivalent for most PC mice out there. j --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

LOL!! Oh, yeah? If you can't do It with one button, you're obviously not a true musician!

quoted 6 lines In a message dated 8/20/00 3:32:08 AM, youn0394@umn.edu writes:

> In a message dated 8/20/00 3:32:08 AM, youn0394@umn.edu writes: > > << will complain about 1 button mice. it's always something. >> > > one button mice come standard.. but you can get a macintosh equivalent for > most PC mice out there.

d.kearley@home.com www.mp3.com/kearley Great Electronic Music from Kearley! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org