well alrighty then, time for the virgin post
1) Rawkus songs almost exclusively are comprised of recycled BDP beats and
recycled samples...solid, straight up programming but nuthin too special.
2) Timbaland, Cash Money, etc. get cool drums and i definitely appreciate
the more intricate rhythm programming, but they all use too many presets and
roland jx1080/2080/korg trinity sounds to be innovative as electronic
musicians (more so it's the mix engineers i think who lend this music a
sophisticated electronic edge, (how else could these guys use 808 kiks still
have there beats sound interesting) but i'm biased on this)
3) I think kent williams really hit the nail on the head with idm as
crossroads of pop and experimental music, though i'm not so sure it's fair
to say just "pop" as it's pop, techno, jungle, and the gamut of 'popular
electronic forms' (if you'll let me say that without throwing tomatoes in my
face and such) which show up as heavy influences in much of what we seem to
deem idm. not all electronic music that pushes the technical envelope gets
the status of idm(simon posfer's work (hallucinogen, dementertainment) is a
prime example, imo), but it seems that what often lands something in the idm
category is a combination of inventive use of technology (whether
technologically advanced or just plain clever) and a tendency to break form
(i.e. disposing of traditional song structure and format and obliterating
separation/distinction between rhythm/melody/harmony, chorus/verse structure
etc.) both of which funkstorung has shown a gift for.
this all makes me think that (a) hip hop and idm have a lot in common, as
hip hop at one point had one of it's main themes the subjugation (uh oh,
here come the tomatoes) of all musical elements to rhythm. that idm should
take hip hop vocals and treat them as just any old electronic waves instead
of vocals proper is grrreat to me. track 6 rocks this so hard, where there
are almost no recognizable words at all despite the extensive vocal sampling
(not to say this hasn't been done, it was done as soon as musicians began
experimenting with tape, and funkstorung kinda did it already back on the
last album). and (aa) it worries me hearing so many people complain about
bad mixing on disctruction, i first heard the album being blasted from a
beautiful stereo and it sounded find, i'm apt to think that the low level of
non-rhythmic aspects is meant to encourage louder listening (i have trouble
believing that people as skilled at synthesis techniques as these two would
suddenly fall of and not be able to set proper levels)...i think idm as a
genre is maybe most readily defined as a genre which repeatedly is in danger
of resting on it's laurels and falling into formula and codification, only
to be rescued just in time by one or another innovative artist...
4)the quannum crew is a good example of hip hop which pushes limits, often
in the way of being technologically innovative, imho
Ethan Winn
Sudden Industries
www.suddenindustries.com
(212) 473-4783...
-----Original Message-----
From: Drusca [mailto:andrei@world.std.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:29 PM
To: idm@hyperreal.org
Subject: Re: [idm] More on Rap in IDM. . .
quoted 2 lines only problem is that all the people you have mentioned are just recycling
> only problem is that all the people you have mentioned are just recycling
> the undeground hiphop sound of 94-97, while adding a little more through
the
quoted 6 lines use of modern technology.
> use of modern technology.
>
> i belive the proper subject for your message should be
> "pushing the limits of commercial hiphop"
>
> they are by no means pushing the limits of hiphop,
Personally, I think the production on mainstream stuff by people like Swizz
Beats or
Timbaland or Cash Money, etc. is more inventive and interesting than any of
the
Rawkus stuff I've heard. I guess all this recent underground stuff is better
lyrically than the mainstream stuff (even that is subjective), but the
production is
really prosaic.
Andrei
quoted 4 lines there is much better and more experimental stuff out there....
> there is much better and more experimental stuff out there....
> try www.sandboxautomatic.com
>
> they have a wide selection, that should show you that those guys are
really
quoted 12 lines nothing more than underground people that got lucky enough to sellout.
> nothing more than underground people that got lucky enough to sellout.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Josh Davison" <yoshi@enteract.com>
> To: "jre" <jre@libertysurf.fr>
> Cc: <idm@hyperreal.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 12:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [idm] More on Rap in IDM. . .
>
> >
> > good point. i guess i was just making the generalization that since i
> > like 'em they push the limit... but let me see if i cam rationalize
that.
quoted 2 lines the roots definitely push the limits of hip hop in their live act by
> >
> > the roots definitely push the limits of hip hop in their live act by
using
quoted 3 lines REAL instruments (and rather well i might add) and their production is
> > REAL instruments (and rather well i might add) and their production is
> > pretty adventurous for commercial hip hop (they're on MCA, it's
> > commercial) ... i mean in comparison to fucking Puff Daddy or Dr. Dre
they
quoted 4 lines are definitely pushing boundaries
> > are definitely pushing boundaries
> >
> > same thing with Mos Def/Black Star ... these two records use a lot of
> > sounds that traditional hip hoppers wouldn't be adventurous enough to
try.
quoted 1 line in general, a lot of hip hop is pretty conservative ... there's a
> > in general, a lot of hip hop is pretty conservative ... there's a
formula
quoted 1 line and they stick to it. my point is these records break the rules ...
> > and they stick to it. my point is these records break the rules ...
case
quoted 8 lines in point: B Boys will B Boys on Black Star uses old school breaks and
> > in point: B Boys will B Boys on Black Star uses old school breaks and
> > rhyming, which isn't really pushing the envelope in the sense that its
> > never been done before, but it is in the sense that it isn't done
> > *anymore* ... until now anyway
> >
> > the Mos Def song 'Umi Says' kinda has some drum-n-bass influence (well
> > really it feels like drum n bass because drum-n-bass goes for that jazzy
> > feel ... anyway i shut up now). basically it could be an out-take from
a
quoted 4 lines Good Looking joint... which again isn't really pushing the limit of
> > Good Looking joint... which again isn't really pushing the limit of
> > anything but trad hip hop
> >
> > so uh now i justified myself. but i could still agree with the
sentiment
quoted 1 line that Mos Def/Black Star/Roots certainly aren't pushing the limits as
> > that Mos Def/Black Star/Roots certainly aren't pushing the limits as
much
quoted 43 lines as Co Flow and Krush
> > as Co Flow and Krush
> >
> > josh
> >
> >
> > --
> > String Theory : Digital Music for Humans
> > http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 24 May 2000, jre wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > It's a pretty good selection of pretty good music. For once I'm not
> posting
> > > to disagree.
> > > But could you please tell me how The Roots, Mos Def and Black Star
> manage to
> > > push the limit ? I like what they do but can't see why they're
> considered
> > > inovators.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jr
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Josh Davison <yoshi@enteract.com>
> > > To: Michael Upton <jetjag@MailAndNews.com>
> > > Cc: <idm@hyperreal.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 4:57 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [idm] More on Rap in IDM. . .
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Hip hop that pushes the limit:
> > > > (top five imho)
> > > >
> > > > 1. DJ Krush - Kakusei (Sony)
> > > > 2. Company Flow - Little Johnny from the Hospitul (Rawkus)
> > > > 3. The Roots - Things Fall Apart (MCA)
> > > > 4. Mos Def/Talib Kweli - Black Star (Rawkus)
> > > > 5. Mos Def - Black on Both Sides (Rawkus)
> > > >
> > > > jsoh
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