IDM Mailing Archive

Hello. I've only just two minutes ago been able to 'hear' "Maiden Voyage" by Global Communication after owning it since shortly after it came out some years ago. I can't get over it so I thought I'd see if any of you guys have similar difficulty 'hearing' music sometimes. What I mean by 'hearing' in this context is being able to identify where the 'on beat' is. Ultimately I'd like to know what the music writers intended - is there definitely only one place the 'on beat' should have been in the first place? Anyway back to that track off 76:14 by GC, a few minutes into the track a sort of chime chord section comes in and this bit, up until now, completely threw me when listening to the track. I was listening to the track just now (admittedly I don't listen to 76:14 as much as I should) and tried to force myself to not get thrown by the chords (I've tried many times before but failed) and what did I hear? a totally different sound! Funky I suppose? Lots of the noises were 'off beat' but finally the track gelled together and I can actually enjoy it :-). Other 'difficult' tracks that have triggered headaches are: Kid Spatula: Chisholm Source Direct: Call & Response - (I find it hard to belive this doesn't have an 'on beat') Quite a few tracks by Being Link: Antacid - (but this changes as the track progresses, doesn't it?) When Mixmaster Morris did a DJ set for Paul Thomas' Kiss FM show he used a vocal snippet of someone talking about 'difficult music'. I wonder if it was referring to this problem with on beats? Anyone's thoughts on the subject would be appreciated. -Ed Pond

At 02:56 PM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 8 lines I was listening to the track just now (admittedly I

>I was listening to the track just now (admittedly I >don't listen to 76:14 as much as I should) and tried >to force myself to not get thrown by the chords (I've >tried many times before but failed) and what did I >hear? a totally different sound! Funky I suppose? >Lots of the noises were 'off beat' but finally the >track gelled together and I can actually enjoy it :-). >

<snip, 'hearing' difficult music for the first time> eh, this reminds me of how i felt towards orb's orbus terrarum when it first came out... i thought it was 'okay' but nothing great... (i was kind of hoping for UFOrb2 at that time) then three years later after forgetting about it, i listened to it again... and then it hit me: <ouch!> that album's absolutely fucking brilliant! the choatic beats the textures... everything... later, the beats and the whole thing kind of reminded me of organum's veil of tears and hmmm, what was that other one called? oh submission.... except here the sonic textures were animated... transformed into beats... while organum shaped the 'percussion' to be the drone... now that orb album is one of my favorites, and doesn't sound dated even today... (notice aphex twin's and autechre's recent attempts to 'shape sound' and incorporate shifting sound textures into beats... that's exactly what orbus terrurm did... the beats emerged from the swishing/clashing delayed/reverbed to the 9th degree sonic soup... i was too short sighted too see it at that time though...) other albums that i didn't fully appreciate when they came out were: autechre's 'amber' and aphex's 'i care because you do' (i remember ICBYD gave me a headache when listening over headphones... and amber seemed kind of bland... since then amber saved my life many times... heh, i remeber that 2 years ago when tri repeate came out there was considerable amount of bitching and moaning on this list (u know who u are!) about how autechre have 'lost it'... now tri is hailed (almost unanimously) as a 'masterpiece') hmmm, suprisingly when 0's metri (i vote twin bleeps to be the most brilliant minimal track *ever*) came out on sahko i really got into on the first listen...(it drove all my friends fucking crazy though!) but it took 2 listens with ollento. hmmm.) peace. :spacecake:OnNow:jeans,t-shirt,women's panties.

quoted 2 lines I have to agree with what you have discovered of "difficult" music. Orbus

> I have to agree with what you have discovered of "difficult" music. Orbus > Terrarum took me literally dozens of listens to grasp its beauty.

I must say that a bit of good urb or even better, mushrooms, and you are immediately in the midst of this music. I think a legitimate question might be: Is electronica made by, and should it be listened to by, people using mind altering substances. I know that I listen to a broad range of this music under all states of consciousness, but when it comes to a night of, shall we say "ritual ingestion", I find that artists like ORB are the real deal. I know that talking about psychedelics on this list is seldom done, and my only guess is that people are afraid of surveillance of posts by unsavory outsiders, and that there might be a danger. I think that this music goes hand in glove with a sort of drug-shamanism, but it's never discussed, though many of the artists are avowed substance users. I don't think a discussion of musical difficulty can evolve without consciousness altering substances being introduced into the equation. Charlie James

Melissa Britton-James wrote this:

quoted 4 lines I must say that a bit of good urb or even better, mushrooms, and you are

> I must say that a bit of good urb or even better, mushrooms, and you are > immediately in the midst of this music. I think a legitimate question > might be: Is electronica made by, and should it be listened to by, > people using mind altering substances.

ugh, this will start a huge flame war undoubtedly but my experience has been that just about everyone who makes music that i truly respect is a huge fucking stoner. i am probably not one to talk though since my forthcoming jungle album is titled "too stoned to sneeze without regretting it" and the web site for it is http://sticky.bud.com/ -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Plan: Eat right, exercise regularly, die anyway.

At 02:10 PM 4/2/98 +0000, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines Is electronica made by, and should it be listened to by,

> Is electronica made by, and should it be listened to by, >people using mind altering substances. I know that I listen to a broad >range of this music under all states of consciousness, but when it >comes

to a night of, shall we say "ritual ingestion", I find that >artists like ORB are the real deal. okay, just this one last post and then i'll shut up: my friend always used to slag electronic music and dissmiss it as shit (i belive he has reffering to bochum welt's module2) unlistenable, and boring. once however while we were smoking grass at my place, i managed to convince him (inspite of his protests) to listen to 'some of this techno shit' and played him orb's uforb,orblivion, and autechre's amber... and guess what? the man has been converted! he has seen the light! he now OWNS autechre, dj shadow, underworld, and some other electronic CDs... and has been last seen at various techno parties dropping oodles of acid... and being chilled out of his mind. i can't help but smile everytime i think of his sudden change of heart concering electronic music... and it all came about because he smoked a little herb... so there's your answer... :-) personally, i discovered electronic music before i discovered drugs, and on my first trip i remeber the feeling that i was hearing the music for the very first time.. they gave the music that extra dimension and depth that was not accessible without them- so there's my experience... well that's it. peace. :spacecake:

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Melissa Britton-James wrote:

quoted 15 lines I must say that a bit of good urb or even better, mushrooms, and you are

> I must say that a bit of good urb or even better, mushrooms, and you are > immediately in the midst of this music. I think a legitimate question > might be: Is electronica made by, and should it be listened to by, > people using mind altering substances. I know that I listen to a broad > range of this music under all states of consciousness, but when it comes > to a night of, shall we say "ritual ingestion", I find that artists like > ORB are the real deal. > > I know that talking about psychedelics on this list is seldom done, and > my only guess is that people are afraid of surveillance of posts by > unsavory outsiders, and that there might be a danger. I think that this > music goes hand in glove with a sort of drug-shamanism, but it's never > discussed, though many of the artists are avowed substance users. I > don't think a discussion of musical difficulty can evolve without > consciousness altering substances being introduced into the equation.

...and a little bit of terence mckenna to top it off. * #### a disturbance in a system. #### laerm. @voicenet.com #### ambition can make you look pretty ugly.

quoted 6 lines don't think a discussion of musical difficulty can evolve without

> don't think a discussion of musical difficulty can evolve without > consciousness altering substances being introduced into the equation. > > Charlie James >> > > Does the same hold true to discussions of literary "difficulty"?

I believe that in some cases it does hold true for literary difficulty. Timothy Leary suggests that re-programming the biocomputer can lead one out of habitual ways of percieving things in general, and this includes literature, food sex, you name it. Much depends on where the perciever starts out. While

quoted 2 lines consciousness altering substances can (and do) contribute much to the total

> consciousness altering substances can (and do) contribute much to the total > body experience of music for some,

I'm talking about more than "body experience" when I relate the influence of psychedelics on a listener. It's more about "out of the body" experience, or metephysical experience. for others this is not possible and not

quoted 1 line desired.

> desired.

I have no problem with this. In fact I am not preaching any doctines here. I sense defensiveness in your tone, and if I've brought that on I'm sorry. Yes, ingesting certain things may awake a deeper understanding of

quoted 1 line certain areas of the music,

> certain areas of the music,

For me it's not really about simply music, but a gateway effect, ala Terrance McKenna, or John Lilly, whereby the whole experience leads to palpable transcendance and personal growth. and it may be a bit of an insult to many who feel that

quoted 2 lines the music they create should create in us a "natural high" that needs no

> the music they create should create in us a "natural high" that needs no > supplement.

If you are insulted by my suggestions, I think you should reconsider. Even music made in a state of utter sobriety can bring vast experience to the user of certain chemicals, and the reverse. Nothing is cut and dried. One mans floor is another mans ceiling, and we're all evolving. I do agree with the notion of natural high, though, and I recommend its persuit. Consciousness alteration can change the way we feel about that

quoted 2 lines music, but so also does mood, temperature, acoustics, and sundry other

> music, but so also does mood, temperature, acoustics, and sundry other > influences we do not necessarily think of as influencing us.

I think you need to give others more credit for what they see as influencing them. I think that we grow into seeing more closely what makes us act and react. In short, while

quoted 2 lines much of idm-ish music is created by artists who celebrate the creativity-

> much of idm-ish music is created by artists who celebrate the creativity- > releasing side of drugs, it is ultimately a personal choice.

I totally agree with you here, and I never meant to suggest anything else. Music as we consume it

quoted 2 lines in the western world is generally an individual activity, just as

> in the western world is generally an individual activity, just as > consciousness altering supplements are.

Tell that to the many people who ritually inbibe and then dance all night together at gatherings all over the world, which is a driving force behind which much of this music gets made in the first place. Remember Woodstock? Raves? It's a culture, it strives to link people. Club culture is a life boat for many otherwise isolated people. Your concept of western music sounds like a fine definition of our dead or dying classical tradition. For my own part, I see a big difference between drug use and drug abuse. Charlie James

I have to agree with what you have discovered of "difficult" music. Orbus Terrarum took me literally dozens of listens to grasp its beauty. I find that this is the case with most of the albums I list as "classics" of the genre/style/idmish stuff. My first experience with Air Liquide made me believe it was crap filler. But after repeated listens, I could detect the shifting rhythms and sounds. Now all of their albums are the closest to my heart. Anyway, the point of my letter - perhaps there are no bad albums, just albums that haven't been listened to enough to discover their secret pleasures (or have been listened to way too much). My experience with jazz is this same way. "A Love Supreme" took me many cracks at it before it opened its garden of delights to my ears, head, and heart. Or maybe its all about personal taste. James np:Blue Lines (the unsurpassable sound of now) Latest signs Apocalypse is near: 1) Slotek's "Electric Soul Controller" used in Quake videogame commercial on eM-pT-V. (Does this mean WordSound has hit it big?) 2) Portions of Bjork's "Post" turned into muzak and piped into new Paris airport terminal. (I guess this certifies her mainstream influence - she's as big as "A Stroll in the Black Forest" now!!)

At 01:17 PM 4/2/98 EST, you wrote:

quoted 4 lines Anyway, the point of my

> Anyway, the point of my >letter - perhaps there are no bad albums, just albums that haven't been >listened to enough to discover their secret pleasures (or have been >listened to way too much).

hmmmm. i can kinda see where you're going with this... you're saying that if i listen to the SpiceGirls enough times i will eventually go deaf and might percieve the muted tones and muffled beats as 'wicked off-kilter experimental techno'... ...either that or get severe braindamage... :-) (actually i like the spicegirls, parts of 'wannabe' remind me of autechre's 'dael'... the beats and synth bass squiggle that is) anyway, i would disagree. bad is still bad and no amount of listening can make it good. hmm, i'm trying to think of a electronic record which i own and think it sucks.... hmmm.... the cosmic twins CD on disturbance only comes to mind... tottally forgetablle stuff.

quoted 1 line Latest signs Apocalypse is near:

>Latest signs Apocalypse is near:

<snip> its not the apocalypse its just the end of the world as we know it...;-) PS: the other poster mentioned Air Liquide... which reminded me of that wicked compilation on the new electronica label (called new electronica vol.1) featuring nico, cusp (aka vapourspace), CJ bolland, Air Liquide and some others... its really worth checking out (if you can still find it!) if you were disappointed by the Air Liquide CDs but liked that style of hard melodic techno... :spacecake:

Andregurov wrote:

quoted 2 lines I have to agree with what you have discovered of "difficult" music. Orbus

> I have to agree with what you have discovered of "difficult" music. Orbus > Terrarum took me literally dozens of listens to grasp its beauty.

That's strange , when I first heard this album I thought it was(and still is) the best thing the orb has ever done album-wise.I didn't find it difficult listening at all. I've always disliked the "little fluffy clouds" aspect of the Orb and like thier mutant dub stuff more. Their fave track for me is the remix of Home by PWEI(which sounds nothing like the original) it's an excellent track.

quoted 3 lines I find that

> I find that > this is the case with most of the albums I list as "classics" of the > genre/style/idmish stuff.

Classics I usually think of I like right away and can stand listening to over a couple years at least and constantly find something new in it. If I find something hard to listen to repeatedly I usually toss it.(ie: SAW2) It's not so much being caught up with "ear candy" on the first listen but it generally has to grab me whether it's "pop" or "noise". The only album that stands out for me as difficlut that got better or suddenly clicked one day is CabVoltaires "groovy laidback and Nasty" only because at the time I wasn't into upbeat stuff. But a couple of years later it suddenly clicked.

quoted 3 lines My first experience with Air Liquide made me believe it was crap filler. But

> My first experience with Air Liquide made me believe it was crap filler. But > after repeated listens, I could detect the shifting rhythms and sounds. Now > all of their albums are the closest to my heart.

I liked Black but not Red(the only ones I've heard!) I was quite surprised by it.

quoted 4 lines Anyway, the point of my

> Anyway, the point of my > letter - perhaps there are no bad albums, just albums that haven't been > listened to enough to discover their secret pleasures (or have been listened > to way too much).

yes there are bad albums!and lots of them ;-P

quoted 3 lines My experience with jazz is this same way. "A Love Supreme"

> My experience with jazz is this same way. "A Love Supreme" > took me many cracks at it before it opened its garden of delights to my ears, > head, and heart.

I could never get into jazz BUT all the music I listen to now has jazz elements incorporated into it,go figure. I've just never been a *purist* as far as music goes, I like when bands incorporate different styles. I usually try to enjoy the roots of any particular style but usually I end up enjoying the next generations more for some reason.

quoted 4 lines Or maybe its all about personal taste.

> > > Or maybe its all about personal taste. >

I think so. music discussion end up being pretty circular and unresolvable due to the fact everyone has different tastes, and usually don't know why something "clicks" with them. spaul

Simon Paul wrote this:

quoted 7 lines Andregurov wrote:

> Andregurov wrote: > > I have to agree with what you have discovered of "difficult" music. Orbus > > Terrarum took me literally dozens of listens to grasp its beauty. > > That's strange , when I first heard this album I thought it was(and still is) the > best thing the orb has ever done album-wise.I didn't find it difficult listening > at all.

interesting. i had the same experience as andregurov... didn't like it at all at first, then it just CLICKED and wow... i still think those first 3 tracks on "terrarum" are some of the best music ever. the rest of the album doesn't really hold up to that high standard. oddly enough, i had the same reaction to "orblivion" - first three tracks, genius...

quoted 2 lines Classics I usually think of I like right away and can stand listening to over a

> Classics I usually think of I like right away and can stand listening to over a > couple years at least and constantly find something new in it.

it's rare that i find something i don't like a lot at first but grows on me. i think the orb situation was that i was expecting the logical next step after their first two LPs, but "terrarum" came out of left field. on the other hand, my all time fave albums (storm the studio, fear of a black planet, tired eyes slowly burning) all just whacked me on my ass the minute i heard them.

quoted 3 lines I think so. music discussion end up being pretty circular and unresolvable due to

> I think so. music discussion end up being pretty circular and unresolvable due to > the fact everyone has different tastes, and usually don't know why something > "clicks" with them.

i know exactly why things click with me. i just can't figure out why they don't click with everybody else. :) -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Plan: Eat right, exercise regularly, die anyway.

just wanted to point out that the orb's live93 album is quite good as well, a good mixture of orbus terrum/ultraworld/uforb..live .rmx's, ambience, noise, groovy..... aaron........... ps...i am a marketing niche for vw! and you may be too! On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Random Junk wrote:

quoted 40 lines Simon Paul wrote this:

> Simon Paul wrote this: > > Andregurov wrote: > > > I have to agree with what you have discovered of "difficult" music. Orbus > > > Terrarum took me literally dozens of listens to grasp its beauty. > > > > That's strange , when I first heard this album I thought it was(and still is) the > > best thing the orb has ever done album-wise.I didn't find it difficult listening > > at all. > > interesting. i had the same experience as andregurov... didn't like > it at all at first, then it just CLICKED and wow... i still think > those first 3 tracks on "terrarum" are some of the best music ever. > the rest of the album doesn't really hold up to that high standard. > oddly enough, i had the same reaction to "orblivion" - first three > tracks, genius... > > > Classics I usually think of I like right away and can stand listening to over a > > couple years at least and constantly find something new in it. > > it's rare that i find something i don't like a lot at first but grows > on me. i think the orb situation was that i was expecting the logical > next step after their first two LPs, but "terrarum" came out of left > field. > > on the other hand, my all time fave albums (storm the studio, fear of > a black planet, tired eyes slowly burning) all just whacked me on my > ass the minute i heard them. > > > I think so. music discussion end up being pretty circular and unresolvable due to > > the fact everyone has different tastes, and usually don't know why something > > "clicks" with them. > > i know exactly why things click with me. i just can't figure out why > they don't click with everybody else. :) > > -- > Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Plan: Eat right, exercise regularly, die anyway. >

---------------------- ---------- mono@bianca.org -------------------------- ---------------------- ----------- ----------- onourwayhomeonourwayhomeonourwayhomeonourwayhomeonourwayhomeonourwayhome...... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Simon Paul wrote:

quoted 5 lines That's strange , when I first heard this album I thought it was(and still is) the

> That's strange , when I first heard this album I thought it was(and still is) the > best thing the orb has ever done album-wise.I didn't find it difficult listening > at all. I've always disliked the "little fluffy clouds" aspect of the Orb and like > thier mutant dub stuff more. Their fave track for me is the remix of Home by > PWEI(which sounds nothing like the original) it's an excellent track.

i still find that _u.f.orb_ has the most fond memory associated with it, but _orblivion_ is the most cohesive and _orbus terrarum_ is the most "forward". i'm still waiting for something truly "new", though...

quoted 3 lines that got better or suddenly clicked one day is CabVoltaires "groovy laidback and

> that got better or suddenly clicked one day is CabVoltaires "groovy laidback and > Nasty" only because at the time I wasn't into upbeat stuff. But a couple of years > later it suddenly clicked.

heh. this i heard after _microphonies_, some of the early stuff, and the conversation/latter stuff. i put the record on and i laughed for at least 5 minutes at the pop pap. then i put it away and listened to the remixes ep which was marginally better. i forgot about it until a 6 or 7 months later and i listened to it and then quite liked it. slick and mellow. * #### a disturbance in a system. #### laerm. @voicenet.com #### ambition can make you look pretty ugly.

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:10:16 -0500 (EST), laerm <laerm@voicenet.com> said:

quoted 11 lines On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Simon Paul wrote:

>On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Simon Paul wrote: > >> That's strange , when I first heard this album I thought it was(and still is) the >> best thing the orb has ever done album-wise.I didn't find it difficult listening >> at all. I've always disliked the "little fluffy clouds" aspect of the Orb and like >> thier mutant dub stuff more. Their fave track for me is the remix of Home by >> PWEI(which sounds nothing like the original) it's an excellent track. >i still find that _u.f.orb_ has the most fond memory associated with it, >but _orblivion_ is the most cohesive and _orbus terrarum_ is the most >"forward". i'm still waiting for something truly "new", though... >

<APOLOGIZE THREAD="prolong" ORIGCONTENT="off"> shamanism has been around for a long time. everything old is new again. a mind is a terrible thing to waste. try 2 listens to spacemen3's "playing with fire" and call me in the morning........... </APOLOGIZE> NP: substance: relish peeeeeeeeeeeeeeece, Jeff Davis <pHlow> ____--~~~~~~vvvv~~~~ oooo812.831.7846 jjdavis@xnet.com____---- ( ( ( vvvv ~~~~~~ooooooooooooo ___----( ( \ \ \ \ \ vvv ooooooooooooooooooo ____---- ( \ \ \ \ \ \ \ http://www.xnet.com/~jjdavis/

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Jeff Davis <pHlow> wrote:

quoted 7 lines i still find that _u.f.orb_ has the most fond memory associated with it,

> >i still find that _u.f.orb_ has the most fond memory associated with it, > >but _orblivion_ is the most cohesive and _orbus terrarum_ is the most > >"forward". i'm still waiting for something truly "new", though... > > > <APOLOGIZE THREAD="prolong" ORIGCONTENT="off"> > > shamanism has been around for a long time.

uhh, like, yeah. apparently you missed my terence mckenna comment, showing that i am QUITE familar with shamanism. and i'm behind it 100%! :) but i was referring to a new orb album.

quoted 2 lines try 2 listens to spacemen3's "playing with fire" and call me in the

> try 2 listens to spacemen3's "playing with fire" and call me in the > morning...........

never heard of it. * #### a disturbance in a system. #### laerm. @voicenet.com #### ambition can make you look pretty ugly.

On 3 Apr 98, Jeff Davis wrote

quoted 3 lines shamanism has been around for a long time.

> shamanism has been around for a long time. > everything old is new again. > a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Too true x3. Still with this thread, which won't go away :-) Last night late into the evening a bunch of us sat around the garden under the stars and a young man with the unlikely name of Mustapha Baboo stroked a ginger cat named Hamish and commented that he'd only recently been 'cured' of his phobia of cats. This led to a prolonged psychological debate on the nature of unusual phobias, etc. and the upshot of it was that towards the end of last year he was very happily on E at a party and a cat came towards where he was lying on the floor, and without realizing it, he reached out and cuddled the furry little animal, which purringly curled up on his shoulder and remained there for some time. Bingo! Phobia gone. Just thought I'd throw this into the pot, while we're at it! I * " only dead fish swim with the current "

Very true, I like the live versions better than the originals, the Orb are an amazing live band.I like the extra noise when they play live. ah the VW................ :-) spaul mono wrote:

quoted 8 lines just wanted to point out that the orb's live93 album is quite good as

> just wanted to point out that the orb's live93 album is quite good as > well, a good mixture of orbus terrum/ultraworld/uforb..live .rmx's, > ambience, noise, groovy..... > > aaron........... > > ps...i am a marketing niche for vw! and you may be too! >

random Junk wrote:

quoted 14 lines Melissa Britton-James wrote this:

> > Melissa Britton-James wrote this: > > I must say that a bit of good urb or even better, mushrooms, and you are > > immediately in the midst of this music. I think a legitimate question > > might be: Is electronica made by, and should it be listened to by, > > people using mind altering substances. > > ugh, this will start a huge flame war undoubtedly but my experience > has been that just about everyone who makes music that i truly respect > is a huge fucking stoner. > > i am probably not one to talk though since my forthcoming jungle album > is titled "too stoned to sneeze without regretting it" and the web > site for it is http://sticky.bud.com/

If it weren't for LSD and electronic music, do you think I'd be listening to IDM- Interesting Drug Music? Phook ya'. Then again, I'm done using drugs:P Acid more than once a week for 5months str8, I think that's enough (for me)! What a long strange trip it was.... g np: MAAS- Latitude (SOMA) -- Gilly waxjuhnkeypornaddict (602) 461-0975 galaxey@earthlink.net **hate makes the world go round** "drugs techno-lise the brain"- J.G. Ballard ~god is theory, evolution is FACT!~ ^^we all hate the rich, yet we want to be rich?^^

<jsd@gamespot.com>

quoted 5 lines i still think

>i still think >those first 3 tracks on "terrarum" are some of the best music ever. >the rest of the album doesn't really hold up to that high standard. >oddly enough, i had the same reaction to "orblivion" - first three >tracks, genius...

I used to share this opinion of 'Orblivion'. Then realized that I like it all fairly well- but that I couldn't deal with large amounts of it at once. The sounds are so.. hmm, chunky? Homogeneous at any rate- that by the 3rd or 4th track I've had my fill. In controlled doses however, most all of the tracks have something interesting to offer. <brittonjames@aristotle.net>

quoted 2 lines I must say that a bit of good urb or even better, mushrooms, and you are

>I must say that a bit of good urb or even better, mushrooms, and you are >immediately in the midst of this music.

[snip]

quoted 2 lines I don't think a discussion of musical difficulty can evolve without

>I don't think a discussion of musical difficulty can evolve without >consciousness altering substances being introduced into the equation.

You're right about some of this type of music having a close association with 'consciousness altering substances'. Just to represent myself in this discussion, I know from experience that a very deep perception of musical value or worth, whether it's rhythmic or more conceptual, can be had without any form of drug use. And, this kind of music can be conceived and performed without it also. There's no doubt that mind-expanding substances er, expand your mind. But the same type of creative liberation can also be achieved through more conventional means. After all (and this is not meant to be antagonistic), neither visual arts nor performing arts education involves any formal or informal reference to or education about drug use. The use of such substances to achieve creative moments/appreciative moments is a characteristic of a subset of creative folk, not the trade. By extension, a subset (not the whole) of the IDM community (producers and consumers). The ratio may be different (larger), but it's a subset nonetheless. Brad Shelton bshelton@cte.net

Andregurov wrote:

quoted 35 lines I agree with you one-hundred percent. I did not intend to sound overly

> > I agree with you one-hundred percent. I did not intend to sound overly > defensive (there is an irony on my part for being defensive about not trying > to sound defensive, isn't there?), but was merely attempting to show that > though drugs do affect the way we describe our music, it is not necessary. > Consciousness-altering is a serious step for those who are not prepared to > deal with the walls it "breaks down" and the feelings it can arouse and > inspire. I perhaps misunderstood your original post to be stating that > consciousness-altering artefacts have a wider scope to play in how we describe > our reaction and how we achieve that reaction, and my reply was intended to > convey alarm at this expansion. I believe that the music does not require any > altering to our perceptions to have credibility, but for those who can and are > prepared to seek out the new consciousness drugs can create the choice is > valid. My statement was not meant to verify your observations nor invalidate > them. The choice, as both of us recognize, is individual. > However, my statement of western music's history of individual accessibility I > stand by, for it does not just describe classical tradition. As long as we > are listening to the music it is an individual stance. Dancing does not, in > my view, change this music into a communal one. Yes, dancing may be a > communal act, but the receptivity of our ears to the music is still > individual. True, only by breaking down the walls of "us" and "them" into > "all" can we change that - and this is where the role of consciousness- > altering chemicals can help. But, since most IDM is confined to home speakers > or smoky nightclubs, and not large "tribal gatherings" (unless you are > lucky/unlucky enought to live in the UK), for most of us still the music is an > individual experience. Please do not misinterpret this to be an attack on > music that is meant to be a communal experience (i.e. trance as an easy > example), I merely accentuate a different facet of the experience of IDM than > you, my facet being the one I am most able to discuss. > > In sum, your post is challenging to think about. My garble hopefully is not a > total waste of your time. I'm going to go smoke now and be selfish about my > music. > > James (please take all sarcastic statements above as such)

a friend of mine the same - she never *got* electronic music till she listened to some whilst tripping. Now she loves it - or at least some of it but most rock music is made by people under the influence of one kind of mind altering substance or another too. i doubt in any different proportion to those making electronic music

quoted 54 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: spacecake [SMTP:spacecake@earthling.net] > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 1998 4:29 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) 76:14 and 'difficult' music > > At 02:10 PM 4/2/98 +0000, you wrote: > > Is electronica made by, and should it be listened to by, > >people using mind altering substances. I know that I listen to a broad > >range of this music under all states of consciousness, but when it >comes > to a night of, shall we say "ritual ingestion", I find that >artists like > ORB are the real deal. > > okay, just this one last post and then i'll shut up: > > my friend always used to slag electronic music and dissmiss it > as shit (i belive he has reffering to bochum welt's module2) > unlistenable, and boring. > once however while we were smoking grass at my place, i managed > to convince him (inspite of his protests) to listen to 'some of this > techno > shit' and played him orb's uforb,orblivion, and autechre's amber... > and guess what? the man has been converted! he has seen the light! > he now OWNS autechre, dj shadow, underworld, and some other > electronic CDs... and has been last seen at various techno parties > dropping > oodles of acid... and being chilled out of his mind. > > i can't help but smile everytime i think of his sudden change > of heart concering electronic music... and it all came about > because he smoked a little herb... > so there's your answer... :-) > > personally, i discovered electronic music before i discovered drugs, > and on my first trip i remeber the feeling that i was hearing > the music for the very first time.. they gave the music that extra > dimension and depth that was not accessible without them- > so there's my experience... > > well that's it. peace. > > :spacecake: > > > > > > > > > > > >

i was having a conversation w/ a deadhead at an ambient party in baltimore in '94...... we decided that all good music sounds the same anyway..... oh yeah....we were tripping X) On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, David Hodgson wrote:

quoted 63 lines a friend of mine the same - she never *got* electronic music till she

> a friend of mine the same - she never *got* electronic music till she > listened to some whilst tripping. Now she loves it - or at least some of it > > but most rock music is made by people under the influence of one kind of > mind altering substance or another too. i doubt in any different proportion > to those making electronic music > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spacecake [SMTP:spacecake@earthling.net] > > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 1998 4:29 PM > > To: idm@hyperreal.org > > Subject: Re: (idm) 76:14 and 'difficult' music > > > > At 02:10 PM 4/2/98 +0000, you wrote: > > > Is electronica made by, and should it be listened to by, > > >people using mind altering substances. I know that I listen to a broad > > >range of this music under all states of consciousness, but when it >comes > > to a night of, shall we say "ritual ingestion", I find that >artists like > > ORB are the real deal. > > > > okay, just this one last post and then i'll shut up: > > > > my friend always used to slag electronic music and dissmiss it > > as shit (i belive he has reffering to bochum welt's module2) > > unlistenable, and boring. > > once however while we were smoking grass at my place, i managed > > to convince him (inspite of his protests) to listen to 'some of this > > techno > > shit' and played him orb's uforb,orblivion, and autechre's amber... > > and guess what? the man has been converted! he has seen the light! > > he now OWNS autechre, dj shadow, underworld, and some other > > electronic CDs... and has been last seen at various techno parties > > dropping > > oodles of acid... and being chilled out of his mind. > > > > i can't help but smile everytime i think of his sudden change > > of heart concering electronic music... and it all came about > > because he smoked a little herb... > > so there's your answer... :-) > > > > personally, i discovered electronic music before i discovered drugs, > > and on my first trip i remeber the feeling that i was hearing > > the music for the very first time.. they gave the music that extra > > dimension and depth that was not accessible without them- > > so there's my experience... > > > > well that's it. peace. > > > > :spacecake: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

---------------------- ---------- mono@bianca.org -------------------------- ---------------------- ----------- ----------- onourwayhomeonourwayhomeonourwayhomeonourwayhomeonourwayhomeonourwayhome...... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, David Hodgson wrote:

quoted 6 lines a friend of mine the same - she never *got* electronic music till she

>a friend of mine the same - she never *got* electronic music till she >listened to some whilst tripping. Now she loves it - or at least some of it > >but most rock music is made by people under the influence of one kind of >mind altering substance or another too. i doubt in any different proportion >to those making electronic music

man, does _anybody_ have that steve albini quote where he talks about filters, shit, and drugs? eric, forgetting

In a message dated 98-04-02 18:05:04 EST, spacecake@earthling.net writes: << Anyway, the point of my >letter - perhaps there are no bad albums, just albums that haven't been >listened to enough to discover their secret pleasures (or have been >listened to way too much). hmmmm. i can kinda see where you're going with this... you're saying that if i listen to the SpiceGirls enough times i will eventually go deaf and might percieve the muted tones and muffled beats as 'wicked off-kilter experimental techno'... ...either that or get severe braindamage... :-) (actually i like the spicegirls, parts of 'wannabe' remind me of autechre's 'dael'... the beats and synth bass squiggle that is) anyway, i would disagree. bad is still bad and no amount of listening can make it good. >> Actually, I think the Spice Girls would fall into the "have listened to way too much" category. Even you admitted (I believe very sarcastically) that part of the Spice Girls was enjoyable. My point is that all music has high points that are rewarding. Hey, I liked "Spice up your Life" the first time I heard it. The last 28 times found the song on a descending trajectory of pleasure. Good in my terms does not mean "rewarding for all eternity" but instead "pleasurable in the limited run." For some albums, the span of goodness is very short (re: Spice Girls). For others, it takes me a while to discover the goodness (re: Roni Size's "new forms" which took me many exposures to savor). I think Jack Dangers (God O.D. forewarned!!) said it best on "subliminal sandwhich" - hear twice, listen the third time. For some albums, it takes several listens, something that I don't think anyone on this list would disagree with. For other albums, the pleasure is more immediate, and generally much more limited as a result. I promise to shut up on the subject now. James np: my own creation: silence and my ferret sniffing (a most immediately displeasing experience - maybe I should listen a few more times ???)

Andregurov wrote:

quoted 7 lines can make it good. >>

> can make it good. >> > > Actually, I think the Spice Girls would fall into the "have listened to way > too much" category. Even you admitted (I believe very sarcastically) that > part of the Spice Girls was enjoyable. My point is that all music has high > points that are rewarding. Hey, I liked "Spice up your Life" the first time I > heard it.

Right but you're not going to blow $30 bucks on a Spice Girls CD now are you? But I would for RHK without even listening to it first.

quoted 4 lines I think Jack Dangers (God O.D. forewarned!!) said it

> I think Jack Dangers (God O.D. forewarned!!) said it > best on "subliminal sandwhich" - hear twice, listen the third time. For some > albums, it takes several listens, something that I don't think anyone on this > list would disagree with.

I would. ;-) more than two listens and no response?pitch it.<sarcasm off> ie Goldie:santurnzreturn....worst thing I've ever bought...ever.crap.

quoted 3 lines For other albums, the pleasure is more immediate,

> For other albums, the pleasure is more immediate, > and generally much more limited as a result. I promise to shut up on the > subject now.

thanks ;-) spaul

I think I'd lay off the relish for a while there ;-) spaul Man Orbvs terrarvm is gooooooooooooooodddddddddddd..yummy. Jeff Davis wrote:

quoted 34 lines On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:10:16 -0500 (EST), laerm <laerm@voicenet.com> said:

> On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:10:16 -0500 (EST), laerm <laerm@voicenet.com> said: > > >On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Simon Paul wrote: > > > >> That's strange , when I first heard this album I thought it was(and still is) the > >> best thing the orb has ever done album-wise.I didn't find it difficult listening > >> at all. I've always disliked the "little fluffy clouds" aspect of the Orb and like > >> thier mutant dub stuff more. Their fave track for me is the remix of Home by > >> PWEI(which sounds nothing like the original) it's an excellent track. > >i still find that _u.f.orb_ has the most fond memory associated with it, > >but _orblivion_ is the most cohesive and _orbus terrarum_ is the most > >"forward". i'm still waiting for something truly "new", though... > > > <APOLOGIZE THREAD="prolong" ORIGCONTENT="off"> > > shamanism has been around for a long time. > > everything old is new again. > > a mind is a terrible thing to waste. > > try 2 listens to spacemen3's "playing with fire" and call me in the > morning........... > > </APOLOGIZE> > > NP: substance: relish > > peeeeeeeeeeeeeeece, > > Jeff Davis <pHlow> ____--~~~~~~vvvv~~~~ oooo812.831.7846 > jjdavis@xnet.com____---- ( ( ( vvvv ~~~~~~ooooooooooooo > ___----( ( \ \ \ \ \ vvv ooooooooooooooooooo > ____---- ( \ \ \ \ \ \ \ http://www.xnet.com/~jjdavis/