IDM Mailing Archive

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Anthony Ewers wrote: ]Consider this, Electronic instruments encourage music which is ultimately ]guided by numbers and specifications whereas those who play acoustic ]instrumnts play music guided by the mind & soul. A more blatantly-put untruth I have never witnessed. I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've sat down at my computer, started on a song, and just let whatever comes out take shape through random experimentation. Those who genuinely enjoy the composition process could never and would never be encouraged to abandon the "soul" you think you understand so well, regardless of the medium. And consider this: Which arena, acoustic or electronic, has repeated itself more in the last ten years? Which one will likely be sporting the same pretty-boy, angsty, television-whore types in the ten years to come? ]For me anyway I will always feel a more natural intuition or sense of ]creativity with an acoustic instrument, than with a piece of mass produced ]electronic 'gear', serial numbers, product numbers, barcodes an' all. then it is your own outdated view of creativity which is holding you back, not some imagined anti-creativity force present in all of the _evil_ _machines_. ]haven't yet bought the sales pitch that you exclusively need the latest ]hi-tech gear, or the gear that a particular outfit uses, to make creative ]or futuristic music. I don't think anyone of a decent intelligence would consider any particular instrument essential to good song-writing. use what feels best regardless of its age or stigma. ]The future of music lies in resistance & change! you'll be waiting quite a while for the next time acoustic music changes. it might not even happen at all, the way humanity seems to love its No Doubt, its Blues Traveller, and its PUFF-fuckin-DADDY. so deal. _|\/=- enwerthwonatgee-eldotyewembeeseadotedie-you

quoted 1 line Doubt, its Blues Traveller, and its PUFF-fuckin-DADDY. so deal.

> Doubt, its Blues Traveller, and its PUFF-fuckin-DADDY. so deal.

Aw come on now... even Puff "fuckin" Daddy deserves some respect. Why, just last week he wandered into the building I work at to give a radio interview. Quickly followed up the next day by none other than the _man_ himself, George "fuck' n' AYYY" Clinton, hair 'do and all. pop on now: Oasis My point here, probably lost in the cynicism, is that popularization and lethargy go hand in hand. It's only natural to fall into a rut when you know you're going to make 6 figures doing it. So why complain when it's grunge- alterno-pop-hop that's blasted everywhere? Better them than seeing Skampilation posters plastered all over the subway. If that were the case, what do you think Skampilation XIII would sound like? Probably very much like Skampilation I. Here's hoping electronica keeps progressing! Long live innovation! -- jr

In a message dated 97-10-01 17:48:33 EDT, you write: << Aw come on now... even Puff "fuckin" Daddy deserves some respect. Why, just l >> No way. I usually don't diss artists, but puff daddy is booty. I have seen more creativity in my toilet after taco bell than anything puff daddy has displayed. Puff daddy has money and crystal---- thats it! He is not a mc, and he is for sure not a producer. He gives a bad name to hip hop and the art of sampling in my book. Many people still don't have respect for sample-based music due to this guys wack productions. Puff daddy = mc hammer of the 90's. Peacers

quoted 5 lines On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Anthony Ewers wrote:

>On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Anthony Ewers wrote: > >]Consider this, Electronic instruments encourage music which is ultimately >]guided by numbers and specifications whereas those who play acoustic >]instrumnts play music guided by the mind & soul.

Wed, 1 Oct 1997 wrecktangle <nworth1@gl.umbc.edu> Wrote:-

quoted 6 lines A more blatantly-put untruth I have never witnessed. I can't begin to

>A more blatantly-put untruth I have never witnessed. I can't begin to >tell you the number of times I've sat down at my computer, started on a >song, and just let whatever comes out take shape through random >experimentation. Those who genuinely enjoy the composition process could >never and would never be encouraged to abandon the "soul" you think you >understand so well, regardless of the medium.

I've no doubt that you sit down at your computer and go with the creative flow of things, as do I and a lot of others. I do enjoy what I do (wouldn't have done it for 11 years if I didn't) and I think most people who do music also do. Who said anything about abandoning soul???? maybe the voice in your head did but I certianly didn't. If you want to go beyond the *defined* parameters of an electronic instrument, you are stuck - FACT - no two ways about it amigo, however much your mind or soul wishes to go beyond these perameters is negated. Have you never found limitations in your gear! And consider this: Which

quoted 3 lines arena, acoustic or electronic, has repeated itself more in the last ten

>arena, acoustic or electronic, has repeated itself more in the last ten >years? Which one will likely be sporting the same pretty-boy, angsty, >television-whore types in the ten years to come?

If you read my message properly you would know that I never pitted acoustic music vs electronic music! The title was supposed to convey irony (thus the '?') but then I suppose thats too much for you to pick up on... I was trying to show that electronic instruments have limitations, both physical & in software, rather than just the physical limitations of acoustic instruments Check your digests, you'll see that in 1279 <graham@lwtcdi.prestel.co.uk> in a post titled 'You have been found 'wanting'...' suggested otherwise. Thererfore I don't see what arena/genre's repeating themselves has to do with this argument - all genres do, and I think you'll find that there is no exclusively electronic or acoustic arena/genre anyway...

quoted 7 lines ]For me anyway I will always feel a more natural intuition or sense of

>]For me anyway I will always feel a more natural intuition or sense of >]creativity with an acoustic instrument, than with a piece of mass produced >]electronic 'gear', serial numbers, product numbers, barcodes an' all. > >then it is your own outdated view of creativity which is holding you back, >not some imagined anti-creativity force present in all of the _evil_ >_machines_.

Creativity can never be outdated - by definition creativity is part of spontaneous action. I own synths/samplers too, I never suggested they were anti-creative or evil, just that they have limitaions, I feel they operate in a different sphere of creativity. Don't try to read between my lines theres just a white space - actually read the words...

quoted 7 lines ]haven't yet bought the sales pitch that you exclusively need the latest

>]haven't yet bought the sales pitch that you exclusively need the latest >]hi-tech gear, or the gear that a particular outfit uses, to make creative >]or futuristic music. > >I don't think anyone of a decent intelligence would consider any >particular instrument essential to good song-writing. use what feels best >regardless of its age or stigma.

Agreed. However there are lots of technodroids who I've seen post to this list and others asking what gear do group X use? When the fact is if you're any good at music you can use any instrument to create original ideas and learn things from even the most simple peaces of gear. Its always better to get your own style than mimic someone elses.

quoted 3 lines ]The future of music lies in resistance & change!

>]The future of music lies in resistance & change! > >you'll be waiting quite a while for the next time acoustic music changes.

If this is true perhaps this has something to do with the longevity of acoustic genres, if there is such a thing. I was never talking about acoustic genres in the first place but I'm so glad you thought to mention it? What other tenuous associations have you pick out from my post?

quoted 2 lines it might not even happen at all, the way humanity seems to love its No

>it might not even happen at all, the way humanity seems to love its No >Doubt, its Blues Traveller, and its PUFF-fuckin-DADDY. so deal.

I don't know much about No Doubt and Blues Traveller, but Puff Daddy/Notorious BIG have/had been around for years on the undeground Hip-Hop scene (SHOCK HORROR!) before they made it big. I guess after you've been a struggling artist for a while theres always the temptation to grab as much filthy lucra as you can if the opportunity arises, some might even say you have a right to. I think 'underground' music is finding its way into the mainstream all the time and I think a there are a lot of 'underground' people who want to reject mainstream examples of their favoured genres of music because they reckon most mainstream music lacks credibility. Well that's up to them... I'll say it once again, I'm not discussing 'electronic' music vs 'acoustic' music, OR 'traditional instruments' vs 'machines'. Electronic music has its roots in acoustic music and they co-exist, and they feed of each other, they are not at war. Futhermore when it comes to traditional instruments or machines??.. They are all instruments I was pointing out the limitations of both and NOTHING else OK. ------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony Ewers Recording Artist Styles:- Drum & Bass / Trip Hop / House / Soul / Hip Hop. GEAR:- GENRALMUSIC S3 TURBO, AKAI S1000, YAMAHA MU90R, ALESIS DM5, ALESIS MIDIVERB 4, TASCAM DA-20, MACKIE 1402VLZ, APPLE QUADRA 610. Personal e-mail: anthony@phatmac.demon.co.uk Future By Design: future@phatmac.demon.co.uk Orders: orders@phatmac.demon.co.uk

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Anthony Ewers wrote: ]> ]>]Consider this, Electronic instruments encourage music which is ultimately ]>]guided by numbers and specifications whereas those who play acoustic ]>]instrumnts play music guided by the mind & soul. ]I've no doubt that you sit down at your computer and go with the creative ]flow of things, as do I and a lot of others. I do enjoy what I do (wouldn't ]have done it for 11 years if I didn't) and I think most people who do music ]also do. Who said anything about abandoning soul???? maybe the voice in ]your head did but I certianly didn't. When you stated that electronic music is "guided by numbers and specifications" and acoustic music is "guided by the mind & soul," I could only assume your opinion of electronically-aided composition was that it lacked soul. To say that x is done in such and such manner, while y is done in another manner can only be interpreted as the statement "x can't be done like y is." ]If you want to go beyond the ]*defined* parameters of an electronic instrument, you are stuck - FACT - no ]two ways about it amigo, however much your mind or soul wishes to go beyond ]these perameters is negated. Have you never found limitations in your gear! The limitations of a guitar, for example, are the dimensions of its fretboard, the construction of its strings, and the dexterity of the person playing it. A computer's restrictions are lesser in every aspect, as soundcards can already produce a greater range of tones than just about any acoustic instrument, and as technology advances this competition between acoustic and electronic to achieve the same results will be made even more pointless. The undeniable telling point is that someone as physically limited as Stephen Hawking could write songs day and night with a computer, whereas that would not be possible with an acoustic intrument. Any limits a computer has are far less constricting than those of an acoustic instrument. ]'wanting'...' suggested otherwise. Thererfore I don't see what ]arena/genre's repeating themselves has to do with this argument - all ]genres do, and I think you'll find that there is no exclusively electronic ]or acoustic arena/genre anyway... If you think you can get away with saying that acoustic, mainstream music has not repeated itself to such an enormous degree as to make the amount of repetition of ideas in electronic music microscopic in comparison, then watch out England, there's a madman loose in the streets. ]>then it is your own outdated view of creativity which is holding you back, ]>not some imagined anti-creativity force present in all of the _evil_ ]>_machines_. ] ]Creativity can never be outdated - by definition creativity is part of ]spontaneous action. I own synths/samplers too, I never suggested they were ]anti-creative or evil, just that they have limitaions, I feel they operate ]in a different sphere of creativity. Don't try to read between my lines ]theres just a white space - actually read the words... I don't know where you think I said "your creativity is outdated", I said your perspective was, meaning you seem to think that there is inherently less creative potential when using an electronic instrument. So just take that medicine right back. ]Agreed. However there are lots of technodroids who I've seen post to this ]list and others asking what gear do group X use? When the fact is if ]you're any good at music you can use any instrument to create original ]ideas and learn things from even the most simple peaces of gear. Its ]always better to get your own style than mimic someone elses. No argument here, I use a beaten-up 486dx33 that can't even run Windows 95 to write my stuff. Yet you're still bending the truth in saying "if you're any good at music you can use any instrument to create original ideas..." when the dexterity issue is taken into consideration. ]I don't know much about No Doubt and Blues Traveller, but Puff ]Daddy/Notorious BIG have/had been around for years on the undeground ]Hip-Hop scene (SHOCK HORROR!) before they made it big. I guess after you've ]been a struggling artist for a while theres always the temptation to grab ]as much filthy lucra as you can if the opportunity arises, some might even ]say you have a right to. I think 'underground' music is finding its way ]into the mainstream all the time and I think a there are a lot of ]'underground' people who want to reject mainstream examples of their ]favoured genres of music because they reckon most mainstream music lacks ]credibility. Well that's up to them... I don't care how long Puff Daddy has been in it, he's a homogenizing, flavor-of-the-month kind of guy and plenty of people see right through it. But, of course, all that matters to you is if he "payed his dues" in the underground...a disgusting concept if ever there was one. ]he works with. What I'm saying is, isn't worth having an individual style ]that is hard to emmulate rather than focusing on just sounds and random ]arrangemnt, as 1000's of others can copy this easily simply because they ]can use the same gear and programs. I'd _love_ to hear the proof of this -- please (and this should be *easy*, as you yourself say) copy autechre to the best of your abilities and make it available to the general public. come on now, programming is so monotonously simple, i know you can do it. _|\/=- enwerthwonatgee-eldotyewembeeseadotedie-you

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 wrecktangle <nworth1@gl.umbc.edu> Wrote:-

quoted 17 lines ]>

>]> >]>]Consider this, Electronic instruments encourage music which is ultimately >]>]guided by numbers and specifications whereas those who play acoustic >]>]instrumnts play music guided by the mind & soul. > >]I've no doubt that you sit down at your computer and go with the creative >]flow of things, as do I and a lot of others. I do enjoy what I do (wouldn't >]have done it for 11 years if I didn't) and I think most people who do music >]also do. Who said anything about abandoning soul???? maybe the voice in >]your head did but I certianly didn't. > >When you stated that electronic music is "guided by numbers and >specifications" and acoustic music is "guided by the mind & soul," I could >only assume your opinion of electronically-aided composition was that >it lacked soul. To say that x is done in such and such manner, while y is >done in another manner can only be interpreted as the statement "x can't >be done like y is."

Your command/understanding of English is poor. 'Guided' the word I chose, and 'done' which is the word *you* chose to paraphrase me with actually mean totally different things. Are our assumtions partly based on our own beliefs? It's a double sided coin isn't it!

quoted 8 lines ]If you want to go beyond the

>]If you want to go beyond the >]*defined* parameters of an electronic instrument, you are stuck - FACT - no >]two ways about it amigo, however much your mind or soul wishes to go beyond >]these perameters is negated. Have you never found limitations in your gear! > >The limitations of a guitar, for example, are the dimensions of its >fretboard, the construction of its strings, and the dexterity of the >person playing it.

I already expressed the physical limitations of acoustic instruments, and the software & physical limitations of electronic instruments three times over. The dexterity concept applies also to electro-acoustic and electronic instruments too.

quoted 1 line A computer's restrictions are lesser in every aspect,

>A computer's restrictions are lesser in every aspect,

Do you know what bandwidth, bits, sample rates or resolutions are? I didn't think so.

quoted 2 lines as soundcards can already produce a greater range of tones than just about

>as soundcards can already produce a greater range of tones than just about >any acoustic instrument

What is the acoustic exception, Is there one?

quoted 3 lines and as technology advances this competition

>and as technology advances this competition >between acoustic and electronic to achieve the same results will be made >even more pointless.

Do you know most synths and computers/soundcard use the same DSP chips & processors, have similar very specifications. Advances in MIDI instruments have bought the delectable General MIDI Standard, how do you feel about that!?

quoted 3 lines The undeniable telling point is that someone as

>The undeniable telling point is that someone as >physically limited as Stephen Hawking could write songs day and night with >a computer, whereas that would not be possible with an acoustic intrument.

Please escape your brain muddle. The computer is just an interface in this instance, he could actually tell human beings what to play and write music in that fashion also (which is basically what he's doing with a computer), many 'physically unlimited' people do this (composers & arrangers).

quoted 2 lines Any limits a computer has are far less constricting than those of an

>Any limits a computer has are far less constricting than those of an >acoustic instrument.

I sometimes play guitar in my local park on a nice sunny day, It's nice to be play and be influenced by different surroundings. I guess I should take my 'puter over there some time, need a very long extension lead though - fingers crossed it doesn't rain..?

quoted 9 lines ]'wanting'...' suggested otherwise. Thererfore I don't see what

>]'wanting'...' suggested otherwise. Thererfore I don't see what >]arena/genre's repeating themselves has to do with this argument - all >]genres do, and I think you'll find that there is no exclusively electronic >]or acoustic arena/genre anyway... > >If you think you can get away with saying that acoustic, mainstream music >has not repeated itself to such an enormous degree as to make the amount >of repetition of ideas in electronic music microscopic in comparison, then >watch out England, there's a madman loose in the streets.

Where did I say that 'mainstream music has not repeated itself', you got me! Did you read the article I suggested in IDM 1279, it would stop you going completely off the point. Oh BTW Would you like to see some GRR's (Genre Repeatability Ratings) I compiled earlier?

quoted 14 lines ]>then it is your own outdated view of creativity which is holding you back,

>]>then it is your own outdated view of creativity which is holding you back, >]>not some imagined anti-creativity force present in all of the _evil_ >]>_machines_. >] >]Creativity can never be outdated - by definition creativity is part of >]spontaneous action. I own synths/samplers too, I never suggested they were >]anti-creative or evil, just that they have limitaions, I feel they operate >]in a different sphere of creativity. Don't try to read between my lines >]theres just a white space - actually read the words... > >I don't know where you think I said "your creativity is outdated", I said >your perspective was, meaning you seem to think that there is inherently >less creative potential when using an electronic instrument. So just take >that medicine right back.

Splitting hairs now, no argument perhaps? Are we up against the ropes wrektangle? Well unlucky, because I doubt you know what I 'think' from what I wrote, considering I never even wrote about the majority of things think I have - Are your digests a few K larger because of the invisible sub-text? Your argumnets don't offer much in the way of coherency, or mental stimulation do they! Come on admit it you've been smoking la la with Pufff Daddeee...

quoted 3 lines Yet you're still bending the truth in saying "if

>Yet you're still bending the truth in saying "if >you're any good at music you can use any instrument to create original >ideas..." when the dexterity issue is taken into consideration.

Who says the truth is straight? crap metaphor! Mental or physical dexterity? Do you know there are some 'avante-garde' musicians who use tin-cans, milkbottles, anything that makes a nice hollow sound when you hit it, someones head comes to mind...

quoted 9 lines ]he works with. What I'm saying is, isn't worth having an individual style

>]he works with. What I'm saying is, isn't worth having an individual style >]that is hard to emmulate rather than focusing on just sounds and random >]arrangemnt, as 1000's of others can copy this easily simply because they >]can use the same gear and programs. > >I'd _love_ to hear the proof of this -- please (and this should be *easy*, >as you yourself say) copy autechre to the best of your abilities and make >it available to the general public. come on now, programming is so >monotonously simple, i know you can do it.

OK, deal! Send me your address and I'll send you the half dozen Autechre-(I wanna-be-a-cutting-edge-elecronic-artist)-sound-a-like demo's I've recieved! As for me doing Autechre style stuff, I wouldn't waste time copying someone elses style, when I have one of my own to develop and earn cash from! Jazz influenced drum & bass + minimal electronic house, mmmmmmmmm, tasty jam! My final words on this subject... Horse -> Water -> Drink? ----------------------------------- Anthony Ewers, email: anthony@phatmac.demon.co.uk