IDM Mailing Archive

Written by chall@leonardo.net Subject: (idm) 12" vs.CDs

quoted 4 lines Looking at the total popularity of the Gescom work (a bunch of 12"

>Looking at the total popularity of the Gescom work (a bunch of 12" >records), I begin to wonder why skam doesn't press a CD of the Gesom >music? I know it would sell. It would also enable a lot of idm >audience further exposure to some very, very creative music.

quoted 1 line Am I missing a point??

>Am I missing a point??

yes - buy vinyl; as you all know cd is an inferior medium, check the irdial essay on this subject titled "analogue adored, digital deplored" if you doubt this but..for the cd-philes, both the skam compilation on silent (which is now finished) & boards of canada's new album on skam will be cd only sm@4thworld -- http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/4thworld/ check the 'propoganda' page - interviews + features on black dog/ as one/ musik aus strom / jimpster / compost / irdial + more

On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:37:04 +0000, you wrote:

quoted 15 lines Written by chall@leonardo.net

>Written by chall@leonardo.net >Subject: (idm) 12" vs.CDs > >>Looking at the total popularity of the Gescom work (a bunch of 12" >>records), I begin to wonder why skam doesn't press a CD of the Gesom >>music? I know it would sell. It would also enable a lot of idm >>audience further exposure to some very, very creative music. > >>Am I missing a point?? > >yes - buy vinyl; > >as you all know cd is an inferior medium, check the irdial essay >on this subject titled "analogue adored, digital deplored" if you >doubt this

alas what the irdial essay failed to point out is that virtually all electronic music (if not virtually all music) is mastered from DAT so at best on vinyl you get a slightly mushed up 44KHz sample rate... wait for 24bit 96kHz DVDs g.

Hi greg,

quoted 3 lines alas what the irdial essay failed to point out is that virtually all

> alas what the irdial essay failed to point out is that virtually all > electronic music (if not virtually all music) is mastered from DAT so > at best on vinyl you get a slightly mushed up 44KHz sample rate...

yes, thats a good point. but akin *did* swing towards completely analog recording in a later essay. He urges us to use tape wherever possible, right up to the cutting of the disk. I feel that's impractical (and noisy), so i use a mix of analog and digital in my mixes, when possible. probably most artists concerned about "warmth" in their finished recordings, do so too. In short, i don't believe the 96khz DVDs will be as good as yer all singing, all dancing analog setup. that it will probably fit in a suitcase, rather than a whole room, is about the only thing i can see going for it. :) will it make 44khz records sound old and jaded ?? grin, people might have to 'upgrade' their CD collections. stuart is right though, it *is* an imperfect recording medium. Listen to records made before the advent of DAT, and those made (or mastered) afterwards. I don't have the "worlds best ears", but I can spot the difference. why has the industry done this? is it a "cost thing"? you can get 4 CD's into the same box as 1 LP? making them cheaper to produce and ship? or what? soundwise, it sucks. you're a man "on the inside", please let us know. for instance, are warp pressing as much vinyl as they used to ?? or have you switched over to primarily CD's ?? is this due to public demand ?? or the "financially viable" option ?? Not enquiring about sales, figures, etc...merely curious. I feel (a bit) cheated when i buy a CD. LP's used to be chunky, special, and full of bonus goodies. oh, *AND* you can roll a joint on them. 12" vinyl is still my prefered medium. One novel way round the "which is better" dilemma was used by the DJ's (asi, & panasonic) i saw in canada. They've got decks *and* CD mixers. The best of both worlds. Cheers, Ken -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:06:34 +0100 (BST), you wrote:

quoted 17 lines Hi greg,

>Hi greg, > >> alas what the irdial essay failed to point out is that virtually all >> electronic music (if not virtually all music) is mastered from DAT so >> at best on vinyl you get a slightly mushed up 44KHz sample rate... > >yes, thats a good point. but akin *did* swing towards >completely analog recording in a later essay. He urges >us to use tape wherever possible, right up to the cutting >of the disk. I feel that's impractical (and noisy), so i >use a mix of analog and digital in my mixes, when possible. >probably most artists concerned about "warmth" in their >finished recordings, do so too. In short, i don't believe >the 96khz DVDs will be as good as yer all singing, all >dancing analog setup. that it will probably fit in a >suitcase, rather than a whole room, is about the only >thing i can see going for it. :)

yeah. all analogue mastering is fine but expensive and impractical. we've got this huge stack of ampex red snapper masters/demo here for instance and it's like a 6ft high stack - totally awkward - it all gets compiled to dat anyway.

quoted 1 line will it make 44khz records sound old and jaded ??

>will it make 44khz records sound old and jaded ??

probably, i think the 24bit dynamic range of DVD will blow people away. i've heard reports...

quoted 1 line grin, people might have to 'upgrade' their CD collections.

>grin, people might have to 'upgrade' their CD collections.

that'd be awful :)

quoted 4 lines stuart is right though, it *is* an imperfect recording

>stuart is right though, it *is* an imperfect recording >medium. Listen to records made before the advent of DAT, >and those made (or mastered) afterwards. I don't have >the "worlds best ears", but I can spot the difference.

hmm. well i've always agreed with the analogue argue in theory but in practice...

quoted 11 lines why has the industry done this?

>why has the industry done this? >is it a "cost thing"? you can >get 4 CD's into the same box as >1 LP? making them cheaper to >produce and ship? or what? > >soundwise, it sucks. > >you're a man "on the inside", please let us know. >for instance, are warp pressing as much vinyl as >they used to ??

erm, about the same i think. probably fairly stable numbers at the moment, but there is a long term downward trend.

quoted 2 lines or have you switched over to

>or have you switched over to >primarily CD's ??

we always sell between 5 and 10 times as many cds as vinyl copies (for an album that is). we don't sell any vinyl in japan and very little in the usa.

quoted 1 line is this due to public demand ??

>is this due to public demand ??

aboslutely. we make both formats available and people buy the cds. that's it.

quoted 2 lines or the "financially viable" option ?? Not enquiring

>or the "financially viable" option ?? Not enquiring >about sales, figures, etc...merely curious.

CD's do have a greater margin on them. but we don't favour CD or vinyl we do both. CD's favour the artist in terms of royalites too :)

quoted 4 lines I feel (a bit) cheated when i buy a CD. LP's used

>I feel (a bit) cheated when i buy a CD. LP's used >to be chunky, special, and full of bonus goodies. >oh, *AND* you can roll a joint on them. 12" vinyl >is still my prefered medium.

well yes. i always feel cheated by CD artwork and just the sheer plastic *feel* of it. but then my spanners CD still sounds super shit hot and my spanners vinyl is (unavoidably) crackly and dusty :( might i add that some CD players sound much better than others. my new sony CDP-XE510 for instance has far more weight, warmth and resolution than the last shitty thing i had. it cost about 150 quid or something. to get a similar sound from vinyl you'd have to spend upwards of 1500 quid. g.

On Friday, 13-Jun-97, g. wrote [about Re: (idm) 12" vs.CDs]:

quoted 2 lines probably, i think the 24bit dynamic range of DVD will blow people

>probably, i think the 24bit dynamic range of DVD will blow people >away. i've heard reports...

I don't understand the point of getting higher quality than CD.. CD is 16bit audio, the best there is, at least as far as we humans can tell.. at least to my knowledge anyway. though I remember a post by someone a long time ago here saying that their dog listens to Aphex Twin.. who knows, anyone? :)

quoted 2 lines to get a similar sound from vinyl you'd have to spend upwards of 1500

>to get a similar sound from vinyl you'd have to spend upwards of 1500 >quid.

1500 what? :) __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ , m7=

quoted 3 lines alas what the irdial essay failed to point out is that virtually all

> > alas what the irdial essay failed to point out is that virtually all > > electronic music (if not virtually all music) is mastered from DAT so > > at best on vinyl you get a slightly mushed up 44KHz sample rate...

irdial can blow me. what they don't know about recording technology would fill a stadium. Black Dog Droid writes:

quoted 6 lines yes, thats a good point. but akin *did* swing towards completely

> yes, thats a good point. but akin *did* swing towards completely > analog recording in a later essay. He urges us to use tape wherever > possible, right up to the cutting of the disk. I feel that's > impractical (and noisy), so i use a mix of analog and digital in my > mixes, when possible. probably most artists concerned about > "warmth" in their finished recordings, do so too.

crap. there's plenty of things you can do if you care about warmth. analog "warmth" (so called) is simply a matter of controlled distortion. there's $500 boxes that can create that distortion for you now, on command. hell, there's even computer software algorithms that can make it (see: Renaissance Compressor from Waves, for example.)

quoted 4 lines In short, i don't believe the 96khz DVDs will be as good as yer all

> In short, i don't believe the 96khz DVDs will be as good as yer all > singing, all dancing analog setup. that it will probably fit in a > suitcase, rather than a whole room, is about the only thing i can > see going for it. :)

and eventually it will cost under $2000 and be entirely reliable. unlike your basic analog deck which requires herculean efforts to keep aligned, cleaned, and functioning.

quoted 2 lines will it make 44khz records sound old and jaded ??

> will it make 44khz records sound old and jaded ?? > grin, people might have to 'upgrade' their CD collections.

the whole idea of a 44khz RECORD (vinyl anyway) is to laugh... how many people's turntables even go close to 16khz? (that would be a 32k record, of course). how many "average human" ears are even good enough to hear above 16khz any more? if you go to loud clubs a lot, chances are your cutoff is even lower than that.

quoted 4 lines stuart is right though, it *is* an imperfect recording

> stuart is right though, it *is* an imperfect recording > medium. Listen to records made before the advent of DAT, and those > made (or mastered) afterwards. I don't have the "worlds best ears", > but I can spot the difference.

it's the fault of the engineers who made the recordings then, for not understanding digital. or the fault of the mastering engineers who created the stampers.

quoted 3 lines why has the industry done this? is it a "cost thing"? you can get 4

> why has the industry done this? is it a "cost thing"? you can get 4 > CD's into the same box as 1 LP? making them cheaper to produce and > ship? or what?

maybe, for once, it was a case of superior technology winning out? certainly when CDs came about they cost a fortune to manufacture. the prices reflected that. now the cost has just about equalized (and actually my recent research indicates that CDs are cheaper than vinyl if you do it properly!). no doubt the industry loves CDs because of the better profit margins. also quality control is much less of a hassle.

quoted 1 line soundwise, it sucks.

> soundwise, it sucks.

oh please. find a better mastering engineer or learn about digital yourself and premaster your own CDs.

quoted 3 lines I feel (a bit) cheated when i buy a CD. LP's used to be chunky,

> I feel (a bit) cheated when i buy a CD. LP's used to be chunky, > special, and full of bonus goodies. oh, *AND* you can roll a joint > on them. 12" vinyl is still my prefered medium.

it certainly looks good but it doesn't fit in your backpack and you can't play it in your car. -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications ...I was an infinitely hot and dense dot...

Oh please, not the vinyl VS CD debate again. Anything but Vinyl VS CD! Vinyl sounds fine, and is easy to DJ with. CD's sound fine, and is hard to DJ with. ANYTHING BUT VINYL VS CD! In my opinion nearly everything sounds better if you record it really hot to a cassette, which has bloody horrible specs. Good music can survive being sent out over AM radio, or Real Audio. Bad music sounds bad no matter how much you spend on your stereo. And if you guys start debating the merits of $20/ft speaker wire and RCA cables I'm going to have a conniption fit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Psyche manifests as psychic through something we call 'winding', because it twists, and puts things that were far apart next to each other, complicatedly, taffywise." -- winona on channel 78 Kent Williams kent@inav.net -- http://soli.inav.net/~kent

Dear Mr Random Junk,

quoted 6 lines crap. there's plenty of things you can do if you care about warmth.

> crap. there's plenty of things you can do if you care about warmth. > analog "warmth" (so called) is simply a matter of controlled > distortion. there's $500 boxes that can create that distortion for > you now, on command. hell, there's even computer software algorithms > that can make it (see: Renaissance Compressor from Waves, for > example.)

as akin (who refuses to blow you) says "that's insane!" a whole industry springing up with FX boxes and software to put the warmth and distortion *BACK* after digital has stripped it out. pure craziness. Cheers, Ken -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

(rob williams, you may hit "d" now.) Black Dog Droid writes:

quoted 3 lines a whole industry springing up with FX boxes and software

> a whole industry springing up with FX boxes and software > to put the warmth and distortion *BACK* after digital has > stripped it out. pure craziness.

why crazy? many engineers use analog recording systems as effects units, basically, adding in that great familiar analog distortion. how many times have you heard of "saturating the tape"? analog tape clips really nicely when you overdrive it a little. why wouldn't you want that 'analog sound' in a box? i mean, for me, making music is all about control. more options = more control = happy jsd. -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications ...I was an infinitely hot and dense dot...

Random Junk said once upon a time:

quoted 2 lines i mean, for me, making music is all about control. more options =

>i mean, for me, making music is all about control. more options = >more control = happy jsd.

Has anyone thought about using Edison magnetic wire for mastering their music? I hear the "warmth" is incredible. I have a CD copy of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and it just isn't the same as the original. Seriously though, what extremes have artists gone to in recording music? It would be interesting to see if you could build effective recording devices out of different substances like paper, wood, glass, and so forth.

If CDs are cheaper to manufacture than vinyl, why are they more expensive?

On 13 Jun 1997 16:51 -0700 (-1200), Brett McCormick wrote to me:

quoted 2 lines If CDs are cheaper to manufacture than vinyl, why are they more

> If CDs are cheaper to manufacture than vinyl, why are they more > expensive?

That has nothing to do with price..... all marketing. After all, most music stores only make a buck or two selling 12" singles... and rely on the CD sales to make their cash. onnow: v/a freezone 3 (SSR) Lame Thread Prevention in Effect: Aaron Michelson --------------------------------------------------------------------- aw-teck'r (autechre) "Everything you Know is Wrong" For reviews, interviews, art & trash http://www.on-it.net/~aaron/ aaron@defiant.on-it.net

On Friday, 13-Jun-97, sm@4thworld wrote [about (idm) 12" vs.CDs]:

quoted 3 lines as you all know cd is an inferior medium, check the irdial essay

>as you all know cd is an inferior medium, check the irdial essay >on this subject titled "analogue adored, digital deplored" if you >doubt this

there's no way CD is inferior to vinyl, technically.. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ , m7=